~ Wolf's Match-Up's ~

[Da-D-Mon-109]

A Demon asks the Wolf boards to Recontribute to the Lucario Wolf Discussion

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578

:flame:
Yeah, we're talking about Wolf on our more up-to-date thread, and how do you beat a Wolf? By thinking like one? And how do you think like one? ... I dunno, that's why I'm asking you guys for help.
:flame:

 

[Syde7]

The ROBs are talking about you guize, so- if there's anything you'd like to add- feel free.

(Just came from creating the thread... so, there may not be anything there immediately...)


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7806494#post7806494

 

[/~Dogma~\]

65:35 marth
if the marth does a fthrow fthrow fsmash tipper hes bein silly
fthrow to dair
fthrow fthrow to dair
fthrow fthrow fthrow to dair

 

[Emo^Wolf]

i still cant get the marth match up downn. marth sword os too good and every time i try to get close to it i get my move cancel out or the dancing bladess. or that anooying tippp!

 

[HammerBro123]

the only problem with wolf is that he barely can recover so when the match is going someone can get wolf off the edge enough where he can get edge hogged

 

[ArcPoint]

Indeed. I say just l2DI.

i still cant get the marth match up downn. marth sword os too good and every time i try to get close to it i get my move cancel out or the dancing bladess. or that anooying tippp!

Try rolling behind him, that'll make him think twice about committing to any one direction.

Also for the OoS stuff, trying baiting it by intentionally missing Bairs and then shielding his Fair/Bair and then doing something OoS of your own. Or you can airdodge in front of him and then jab (If you buffer it, you should be able to catch him in the 11 frames you have [6 frames to jump I think, and 5 until the hitbox comes out]). That's just to beat out the jump option, he still has other options that can beat that as well.

 

[Seagull Joe]

i still cant get the marth match up downn. marth sword os too good and every time i try to get close to it i get my move cancel out or the dancing bladess. or that anooying tippp!

laser spam the **** out of marth. and bair alot. then u will **** him.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

make sure he doesnt no the zero to death first
if he does go to bf and dont touch the ground...........................

catch him between his wall with ur bair and get crafty with ur shine and blaster

make sure u never use dsmash unless its ftk
dont use dtilt ftilt bc he will punish

dont get predictable with laser he'll walk ps it and get u

always retreat fair and bair marth cannot punish those

if u want more post more details

 

[Gindler]

make sure he doesnt no the zero to death first
if he does go to bf and dont touch the ground...........................

catch him between his wall with ur bair and get crafty with ur shine and blaster

make sure u never use dsmash unless its ftk
dont use dtilt ftilt bc he will punish

dont get predictable with laser he'll walk ps it and get u

always retreat fair and bair marth cannot punish those

if u want more post more details

That throw to spike only works at low percents (I've heard after 6 it pretty much stops working). So even if he knows about this, i'm sure he won't like getting kicked in the face to 80% just to finally get a grab off.

The marth matchup is pretty annoying but not all THAT bad. Just really boring because there'll be lots of lasers from you and Fairs/DBs from him.



Since this is the matchup thread...Does anyone else shine MKs off stage? I can't help but do it to them in the middle of a drill rush, it's just too fun

 

[/~Dogma~\]

i didnt mind taking that much bc if they cant kill me all i have to do is grab and marth can do 4 fthrows and connect with a dair.

but i do see what ur saying some people will go for it some wont.

 

[Boututu]

Dedede's and Falco match-up against Wolf is like if Nintendo said he's doing to well let's just destroy mentally any Wolf main with Dedede. Can't hide, can't approach. Looks like Dedede has found a new fur to exploit...

 

[Daffy]

Why is King Dedede hard for wolf I find it that you can keep your distance with the lasers quite well and and approach with a an f-smash. You can also use his relfector to back away from him if your afraid of being grabed. Dedede is a sitting duck in the air to wolf's bair when its time for Dedede to recover I've found it and that a lot of time can result in a death for Dedede. I guess his waddle des are annoying but the avoidable. A lot of you wolf players I fight tend to use the down smash uncontrolably sadly. Ugh I was captain falcon vs a wolf player just a while ago that was fricken retared hard. his tllts are slower than wolf smashs annoying hoping arround lasers I don't know how I won.

 

[Ishiey]

approach with a an f-smash.

I stopped reading right there.

He can shieldgrab many moves that aren't spaced exceptionally well with his enormous grab range, then chaingrab you to the end of the stage, ending it with a dtilt to put you at a fairly bad position, often times forcing you into a predictable recovery that he can easily intercept with bair/fair. That's the biggest reason.

Oh, and play a good DeDeDe.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I stopped reading right there.

Oh, and play a good DeDeDe.

I lol'd

Yeah, DDD is far more of a threat than people realize. Gstainc has a good share of playing experience with Wolf, and when he played my DDD...he didn't want to do it again.

 

[Daffy]

Ok so I need to play more 1v1 agaisnt good players is what im getting at but yeah I'll admit I haven't faced a good DDD. I beat one as described up above pretty easily so as my posts say im a smash noob and need to face a good DDD first I guess is the lesson.

 

[I LAG]

I demand that you have wolf vs mk match up for mks that cannot perfect shield
imo its 90-10 wolfs advantage or 100-0

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I demand that you have wolf vs mk match up for mks that cannot perfect shield
imo its 90-10 wolfs advantage or 100-0

You can't beat Wolf with MK?

 

[Ishiey]

Because of course MK can PS all of our attacks, just like we can PS all of his attacks, right?

...

Exactly.

 

[I LAG]

like the difference in the match up for mks that can perfect shield and the mks the cant is huge.
i see mks worst than mine who can perfect shield do far better in the match up, while i get ***** and take more than 200% per match from the blaster and get hit by fresh d-smashes

 

[rvkevin]

Most people are able to Perfect Shield the Blaster offline...If you don't know how to shield, thats your fault.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I have questions, but they'd come off as rude, so.

Just play the game more. A LOT more.

 

[tedeth]

He plays the game alot. He's just mentally ********. The wolf he's complaining about is me.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

He plays the game alot. He's just mentally ********. The wolf he's complaining about is me.

O rly now?

Any videos? I'd like some videos. O_o *twitches* If you wouldn't mind.

And mentally ********? Might that be a metaphor for his big inability in smash or is that just a general comment?

 

[tedeth]

I'll try and get some videos for you. I don't think I have any saved replays vs him. Possibly 1 on someone else's wii but I'm not sure.

By mentally ******** I mean he tries to approach me from the other side of FD with a tornado and doesn't expect to get a blaster in the face.

 

[Ishiey]

By mentally ******** I mean he tries to approach me from the other side of FD with a tornado and doesn't expect to get a blaster in the face.

Looooooooooooooooooooool.

Yeah. That isn't a good idea. At all. Try running shield when approaching from afar, if it's really that big of a problem, which I can't imagine.

 

[I LAG]

plzzz upload some of our matches ted. then they will be like ****ING CHANGE THAT MATCH UP!!!
WOLF IS NOW MK COUNTER FOR MKS THAT CANT PERFECT SHIELD.
shielding doesn't do **** against the blasters coz mk has a tiny shield and a few blasters will destroy that.
gliding in fails
nadoing in fails
jumping in fails
infinite cape would work but its banned

i'm just going to learn how to perfect shield by next tourney and then u 3-stocking me will turn into me 3-stock u.

 

[Goldenadept]

lolwut? that'll be the day, use ganon if you wanna beat a mk

 

[Dracospawn]

What? No strategy against meta knight?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

What? No strategy against meta knight?

gotta play defensive. Most other characters use the same strat. MK has alot of priority in his moves so going in and trying to play aggressively against an MK doesnt work. You'll always lose.

Projectile is usually the safest thing to use to force/bait him to approach. But once he gets inside...prepared to get juggled unless you can keep him away. His Uair is one of the more safer juggling tools and easily racks up 30% damage in no time. That or mach tornado.

Using attacks that have little delay just to poke him work; but most of all punishing all of MKs mistakes; mis-used tornado, shuttle loop, missing a grab, anything that gives the MK some sort of long delay NEEDS to get punished and severely.

Dont even think about edge guarding an MK unless you know exactly what to do. Because if hes recovering and you approach from the air, he can turn the situation around into you eating a Shuttle loop, or getting killed with Nair,Dair[gimp], or he can simply tornado safely back if hes recovering just above the platform.

 

[Red Arremer]

If the matchup ratios in here are up to date and reliable, I will use them for a nifty matchup chart. Just tell me if everything in the OP is correct.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The OP is 50% correct at best.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well that sucks. lol. I already made the chart. I can change according to whatever you tell me.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I don't know if you know, Onishiba, and I haven't quite checked what our original sticky guide said, but there is a new MU thread around here. Some MUs are guaranteed to change.

Is it at all time consuming to change those little boxes? Or do you just paste, for example, a 60:40 in the place of a 55:45?

Btw, thanks for the chart. <3 Not many people get the amazing less-then-three sign from me, it's rare. Soak it up.

 

[Red Arremer]

From this point on it's just copypasta. As said, I'll change it once I've been told what to correct.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Well that sucks. lol. I already made the chart. I can change according to whatever you tell me.

the thread was made 8-12-08, and the last edit on it was 1-25-09..yea prob is outdated bb

being someone that needs visual aids over ~words~ i can appreciate the work bb ty

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, this is the sticky and I haven't found a more current matchup index, so that's why I used this.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

That's fine. We're not done anyway. We'll just be filling in the correct info every time we finish an MU. If you don't have the current MU thread in your sticky post, I'll edit the link into this post for you. Regardless, the new MU thread only has about four to five chars done. Thanks Onishiba.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237768

 

[smashkng]

Wario can chain grab Wolf from 20-200% and Wolf can't get out of it, even if buffering Shine. It wasn't mentioned in the chart.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Wario can chain grab Wolf from 20-200% and Wolf can't get out of it, even if buffering Shine. It wasn't mentioned in the chart.

I can also throw a rock off the Statue of Liberty and hit my arch nemesis in the head with it, but you don't see it happen often.

That was a joke there, but it had a point. I won't pretend to know the MU further than my experience allows, but here are two things to keep in mind:

1. How many Warios can do the CG effectively and to the point where it's dangerous (I hear it's difficult to pull off without much practice).
2. How easy will it be to grab someone like Wolf that can both jumpshine, blaster spam and space correctly?

I'd go with 60:40 Wario, depending upon the two aforementioned factors.

EDIT: I think I was right. This CG on Wolf is not easy to do. And at lower percents we can shine out of it. To make sure of this, I will do some testing myself. But at higher percentages, people tend to stay farther away from each other, making it even more difficult. You'd think that Wolf would be more careful knowing there was a dangerous CG on him.

 

[tedeth]

It's true that wolf can outspace wario horizontally, but wario has alot of combos/follow ups into grabs. This means one mistake and you're pretty much done. 200%+ is easily kill percentage for a character like wario with a complete set of fresh moves.

It's true though that alot of Wario can't do the cg well, but if someone actually takes the time to learn it it isn't that difficult.

It could be worse, unlike DK/Bower he can't waft wolf out of the cg.