Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[S.F.L.R_9]

Last time we brought this up there were some mixed opinions and I wasn't quite sure what to do. I personally have been rating compared to Zelda's other moves, but I want to know what you all prefer to do. Zylach brings up a good point that the rating system becomes extremely simplified and not worth much value if we compare to the rest of the cast. Besides, the method of rating isn't going to change the discussion in any way so it's not like we'd lose anything by rating compared to Zelda's other moves instead of to the other characters.

 

[ZombieBran]

I prefer to rate compared to the cast, for realism.
We could always do both. Honestly, the rating itself does not matter near as much as the reasoning.

 

[Rizen]

I prefer rating based on Zelda's moves but don't care too much. If we do rate compared to other characters, we should do it out of 10 instead of 5.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

From here on out, let's rate Zelda's moves compared to her own moves. It makes a lot more sense and gives the scores more meaning. Like take a few moves for example.

Compared to Zelda's moves:
Jab: 3.5/5 Ftilt: 2/5 Din's Fire: 1/5

Compared to other characters:
Jab: 2/5 Ftilt: 1/5 Din's Fire: 1/5

Compared to other characters it makes the scores mean nearly nothing. I'll update the op with how we'll rate from now on

Today is supposed to be the last day for dtilt, but should we extend it one more day? I can't really think of anything else to say about it that hasn't been already said buuuut maybe you gorls have some thoughts

 

[Gay Ginger]

I don't know what else there is to say about d-tilt; it seems most of it has been covered.

Except some have mentioned KO set-ups, and I would just like to point out that none of these are guaranteed because of DI. While d-tilt can lead to KOs, it's not a great KO set-up move imo.

It's a pretty solid move and I think it deserves a 4/5.

It seems we've reversed the way we're rating her moves? It doesn't seem like there's been any consistency...

well anyway, I'm gonna rate them in the context of the game and not her move-set and if that's not what people want, you can just disregard my scores when averaging the scores. I'm not going to rate based on her move-set cause I don't see any meaningful gain from that.

 

[Rizen]

We should all rate the same way for consistency. Otherwise we're talking about different things. It's like saying a storm was "bad" for a town but for the world it wasn't anything noteworthy.
I say we rate based on Zelda's moves alone.

 

[Zylach]

I guess, when thinking about rating in terms of Zelda's own moveset, you can think of it like this:
If we're rating dtilt, consider what dtilt does. It's a quick attack that can challenge some characters' jabs, setup for KO's because of low knockback, clank with lots of moves, etc etc. Now, compare this use to Zelda's other moves. Does she have any other moves that fill this use? If it's the only one that does (imo it is the only one since jab is too slow and her other fast moves don't fill the same niche. For example, utilt is also fast but isn't used for grounded spacing/footsies. It's an anti-air), then that immediately gives it points since it's the only tool she has for certain situations. Furthermore, how well does this move, compared to Zelda's other moves that act just like it, deal with situations where it is useful? Dtilt is useful in footsies, it's a decent move for footsies but is beat out by a lot of characters' jabs like Sheik, Fox, Pika, etc. Since there are no other moves Zelda has that can do this, it has no competition to speak of. Since it's the only move of its kind that Zelda has and it does it's job well but not perfectly, it deserves a score just above average, 4/5 in other words. That's how I see it.

 

[ZombieBran]

We really should rate compared to other characters.
If you wanna do out of 10 for more precision, that works too.

For the record I think Din's Fire gets like 0.5/5

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Dtilt is one of Zelda's go to moves for almost anything within its range. It's a quick, safe poke that can lead into many other moves depending on the percentages and how close the enemy is on hit. Low-Mid percentages allow an easy 20-ish% combo by Dtilt > Jab > Throw, while higher ones can let you combo into an aerial. Dtilt into a sweetspotted Fair will almost always net you a KO because of the opponent having to be at a high percentage for that combo to even be possible. It can clank with certain moves at a safe distance which can always be useful at times.

As for ledge guarding... You guys have pretty much got that covered already. It can hit certain recoveries when timed correctly so you can further harass them. Now if only it could spike...

I rate it a 4.75/5, since it's basically one of her best moves out of them all. I would say 5/5 if it did more damage. Still a great move though.

 

[evmaxy54]

If Fox doesn't DI & Dtilt is fresh, Dtilt into Fair is a true combo from 71-77% =3

#themoreyouknow

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Well...does the score really matter that much? When we did jab, everybody gave it anywhere from a 3-4 iirc. Dtilt so far is 3.5-5. The score is barely different between people, regardless of whether it was rated vs. her moves or vs. everyone else sooo...does it really matter how it's rated if we're getting similar results from everybody?

 

[PUK]

If Fox doesn't DI & Dtilt is fresh, Dtilt into Fair is a true combo from 71-77% =3

#themoreyouknow

Dtilt failed tech on bf followed by Fair or Bair is the love of my life

 

[Rizen]

Well...does the score really matter that much? When we did jab, everybody gave it anywhere from a 3-4 iirc. Dtilt so far is 3.5-5. The score is barely different between people, regardless of whether it was rated vs. her moves or vs. everyone else sooo...does it really matter how it's rated if we're getting similar results from everybody?

Compared to Zelda's moves:
Jab 3
Dtilt 4.5
Compared to the rest of the cast:
Jab 1.5
Dtilt 3.5

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Since there's been a lot of conflict about the scores with no resolution, I'm just going to say rate however you want. We're all getting very similar scores anyway so it doesn't matter.

Alright, we're on to ftilt! I really like this move but I have no idea how to use it LOL. It's interesting that it's only one frame slower than jab so it can act as a "fast" kill move near the ledge or with rage. Ftilt has transcendent priority and it's disjointed so that's always good. It can also be angled so if your opponent is getting predictable with their aerial approaches you can use ftilt angled up as a diagonal anti-air. Angled down, this miiiight be able to hit people on the ledge so we should look into that for when people don't have invincibility. Forward tilt also has a surprising amount of range, having almost just as much as the last hit of fsmash. So, maybe it could be used as a spacing tool?

Of course, this move also has problems. Even though it's only one frame slower than jab, it isn't very fast. It'll also whiff point blank on some characters (

) so watch out for that. Also, it has a decent amount of ending lag.

Really interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this move.

 

[r_greening1]

Honestly I think I would give this move a 2/5. I think it's pretty situational overall, though angling it does give it more utility. The only way I've been using it is to follow up a sweetspot Down air at lower-mid percents. It has good range, has a disjoint, does decent damage, and has good killing power. The problems are that takes forever to recover from, whiffs point blank, and there is usually a better option to take. So I'm not the biggest fan of this move hopefully I'm just using it wrong and you gorls could correct me!

 

[PUK]

I think It don't whiff if you angle it though.
I Like it too, pivot ftilt is one of the best option to chase roll if DA won't work.
It can follow a dtilt at low percent. It shines as akill option in double, when you don't want to commit to F/Usmash or elevator.

 

[evmaxy54]

Ftilt is p mediocre tbh. Can kill though at high %s at the ledge & pivoted Ftilt is cool enough as a spacing tool. Dtilt into Ftilt is p cool on characters on the ledge tho

 

[Zylach]

I like ftilt as a kill move since it's relatively fast, easy to pivot with, and can be angled. Still, it's slow enough that it can create problems such as basically every jab in the world hitting us before the hitbox comes out. Furthermore, Zelda has so many other kill options that it's situational and often accidental on my part if I use and kill with it.. I like pivot ftilting ledge rolls for kills though. It makes me very happy. Can also be used as a followup after dtilt though fsmash is often better at low percents. I don't really have any other uses for it as I use dtilt and fsmash for spacing personally instead of ftilt.

2.5/5

 

[Rizen]

I think Ftilt is pretty bad TBH.
Hits12-13 Ends 40 (27 frames lag) damage 12% sweet, 10% late.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda
Credit to @ KuroganeHammer for the data
The range and power aren't enough to make up for the poor speed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ftilt is trash

Slow, punishable, bad range, attached hurtbox to the hitboxes, doesn't KO

0.5/5

 

[Macchiato]

I like ftilt as a kill move since it's relatively fast, easy to pivot with, and can be angled. Still, it's slow enough that it can create problems such as basically every jab in the world hitting us before the hitbox comes out. Furthermore, Zelda has so many other kill options that it's situational and often accidental on my part if I use and kill with it.. I like pivot ftilting ledge rolls for kills though. It makes me very happy. Can also be used as a followup after dtilt though fsmash is often better at low percents. I don't really have any other uses for it as I use dtilt and fsmash for spacing personally instead of ftilt.

2.5/5

This is my exact thought. 2.5/5

also @ S.F.L.R_9 I think the score should go like

5/5 Amazing

4/5 Great

3/5 Good

2/5 Decent

1/5 Bad

0/5 Hi I'm Din's Fire

 

[AncientCode42]

Personally I'm indifferent with Zelda's F-tilt. I don't like it really. It doesn't have much options for it and it being a KO option rather than a follow-up or combo just doesn't give the move much use for me. Especially when D-tilt or U-tilt are much better options. I will say I like pivioting F-tilt though sometimes I'll accidently do it when I mean to grab. I give it a 2.5/5.

 

[MOI-ARI]

F-tilt....

Hm I looked over my handy-dandy Zelda Notes and all i had for this move for true combos is...

"Jab>F-tilt..."

With the Three dots and All! D:

But yeah I understand its a ranged attack and can be used for the spacies and what have you...Kinda. But its soo slow! Huh? Its only a frame Slower than Jab?..... Well why does it feel as long as a Skyward Sword Opening Cutscene!? Heyoooo!
....*crickets*
But really, this move is just, the embodiment of 'why?' You have jab right there. Its worth a button less of input and is faster.

I mean this is my LEAST used move. I was writing this post an hour ago, stopped to watch some replays. NONE of them did i once use it consciously. I feel i forget about it in a fight only until the connection lags on my Fsmash input and poops out Ftilt instead... really!

But hey, Glad im not the only Zelda Main. Im eager to hear some better uses of this move. ^^ Just reading some of the opinions of others have got me to thinking about this move more and its potential. ;3

i rate 2.5/5 "Zelda-Wide" xD

and rate 1.7/5 'Roster Wide' (seriously,Maybe this move has something. I just need to utilize it better)

 

[Zylach]

NONE of them did i once use it consciously. I feel i forget about it in a fight only until the connection lags on my Fsmash input and poops out Ftilt instead... really!

I could not think of the words to describe this phenomenon in my own post. You have described it in such a perfect fashion. Thank you for that.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think we should be rating Zelda's moves as an overall relative to both the cast and her own attacks. because doing one or the other will give her bad RNG. at least thats how i have been rating them.

as for Ftilt i like pivot Ftilt as a scare tactic, when spacing sometimes. the ability to angle it up or down while turning around is great for swiping at Kirby trying to play crouch fest. up angled can also AA to some extent with more oomph than Jab can produce. unfortunately with Fsmash being fixed Ftilt has slim uses and honestly feels mostly useful at random or on accident like a failed pivot grab or pivot Fsmash. it takes more work to incorporate Ftilt than it does Usmash. 2/5

 

[Gay Ginger]

F-tilt isn't a good move but I don't hate it.

I mainly use it to combo after d-tilt if I'm against a character that can interrupt d-tilt > jab > DA/grab or if the character is at a % that knocks them too far away to follow up after jab.

I like that it can be angled. Sometimes I use it angled up as an anti-air move - if we're careful it works great against characters like Jigglypuff or Kirby. I also angle it down to catch smaller characters that jab or grab might whiff on. Downward F-tilt is usually my go to move to stop Mario's dash attack.

The move is situational but isn't too terrible. 2.5/5

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Woo Ftilt, my favorite move. Just kidding. Probably one of my least favorites. The only real use for this is either using it in a pivot, or maybe swiping at someone who is suffering high end lag or just landed to keep them away. Slow startup, punishable end lag. You could go several matches in a row without using this and be fine. It's really that bad.

For ledge guarding, as mentioned before, running back and pivoting into this move could land you a KO. This only really works at high percentages when the opponent recovers high, landing barely on the stage. Even here it's something you don't want to be caught doing too often, but maybe the one time that you do they won't be expecting it. Still a better option than Usmash.

I rate this move a 2/5. It's really not that great. Kill it with fire. Buff it. Do something to make it more useful. I don't care. It can KO sometimes when in dire situations, or keep the enemy away, but makes you very vulnerable. Not worth the risk unless you're at a safe percent and they're about to die, then you can get careless. Oh yeah, let's also not forget about the massive dead zone.

Edit:
Ledge guard use discovered: If angled down, it can KO opponents at high percentages after recovering from the ledge if they whiffed their ledge attack. You could possibly do this if they get up without jumping, by predicting their roll and using precise timing. I still don't necessarily recommend, but it's something.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Weirdly enough I've been using this move a lot lately...it isn´t safe on shield even when spaced is it? Nobody has punished me when I hit their shield with the tip of it but it seems really unsafe.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think at max range Ftilt has a false sense of "safe" so nobody test it. but it does have alot of reach so we can avoid shield grabs when spaced Ftilt connects unless its some silly disjoint.

 

[Lorde]

Ftilt is a bad move. However, that doesn't stop me from using it way more than I should. It's slow, laggy, and doesn't have much reward. However, the range is decent and it can be kinda useful if you pivot it. I've legit only had the dead spot happen to me once. I've tried to get the dead spot intentionally in training, but I can't seem to get it. It's close to her, isn't it?

I just want ftilt's Brawl angle back because ftilt>bair actually gave this move some use. There's really no reason to use it SSB4. I give it a 2/5.

I suggest we do utilt next. That way we can finish all of the tilts and move onto dash attack. Smashes would follow DA.

 

[evmaxy54]

Yea Utilt

Aka best tilt Zelda has

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Seconding that utilt is the top tier tilt :^). That one will be a lot of fun to look at

 

[Lorde]

Too bad that utilt no longer kills and is really lame now. The utilt change is probably the thing I'm saltiest that they changed about Zelda.

Also the red sparkles that most of Zelda's move have now look weird. I like Melee/Brawl's blue sparkles way more.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Utilt is fun to kill with at ~140% with rage tho because it doesn't look like a move that should kill at any percent lolol

Totally agree with the utilt change though. That was my favorite move in Brawl but they made it into a MESS smh >_>

 

[evmaxy54]

I have to disagree with y'all, Utilt is da bestest <3

Spoiler

you'll see why if it's put in the combo video

 

[BJN39]

I just want ftilt's Brawl angle back because ftilt>bair actually gave this move some use. There's really no reason to use it SSB4. I give it a 2/5.

Ftilt>BAir definitely does not work in Brawl, (If that's what you were insinuating.) and because of its endlag, it more than likely wouldn't work in SSB4 either, lol.

I like how Ftilt didn't get any hit-box/range nerf unlike many moves in the transition to SSB4. That said it really is outclassed in almost every way by Fsmash imo, especially now that Fsmash is more consistent at connecting. Sure it hits a little faster but other than that you're pretty much using a weaker, and even less safe Fsmash smh.

I love how long ranged the move feels in this game. Sometimes you can get away with hitting a shield at Max range and going unpunished. Though, that's really just the opponent's fault. Overall for a tilt is does good damage, but has longer endlag.

I wonder what Ftilt would've been like if it got a sort of "Utilt treatment" and was fast/faster but weaker. (Maybe usable in neutral??) It's not like it's a very viable KO move anyways imo, aside very lucky stage-edge rage boosted hits.

New visual swipe is pretty hot too. She's still pretty mad that Lady Sakutena didn't improve it at all, as evidenced by her expression whenever she uses Ftilt. :^)

I shall score this gorl a 2/5

 

[Lorde]

Ftilt>BAir definitely does not work in Brawl, (If that's what you were insinuating.) and because of its endlag, it more than likely wouldn't work in SSB4 either, lol.

I guess my post did sound like I thought it was a true combo, but I can assure you that I know it's not. I'm pretty sure it only works of they DI really badly, but it might not work even then. However, ftilt>bair was something you could kind of surprise people with because most people didn't know that the tip of ftilt sent them backwards, so you could catch them with a bair if you were quick enough or if they were just awful at DI (or both). It's nowhere near guaranteed, though. I can almost never get it to work even on CPUs lol.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Forgot to rate ftilt but I'll give it a 2/5 because it has pretty much zero purpose but it isn't exactly a bad move if you do use it

Tomorrow's the last day for ftilt btw.

 

[Gay Ginger]

U-tilt is my least favorite of Zelda's tilts.

 

[Fuuj!n]

Isn't this move longer horizontal range wise than f smash in this game?