Wisdom's Weapons - Zelda Moveset Analysis/Discussion [Currently casually discussing~]

[S.F.L.R_9]

Wisdom's Weapons - The Zelda Moveset Discussion and Analysis Thread

Welcome to the moveset analysis and discussion thread! We will discuss each move for four days, during which we'll talk about every use of the move. We'll also rate each move, with a minimum of 1/5 and a maximum of 5/5 (you can use half ratings, like 4.5/5, if you want.) At the end of the discussion period, I'll add everyone's input into this post and find the average of all the scores.

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Now that we've gone over all of Zelda's moves, this is just going to be a thread to casually talk about any of her moves, see how the changes in the newest patch affected them, and anything else like that.

Have fun!

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Previous discussions:​

Spoiler: Jab, 5/24-5/27

Jab received an average score of 3.3/5.

Yay this is a thing!

Maybe I'll end up using this post to save any of my move notes in the future since it's close to the OP.


Jab, you say?

Spoiler: JAB lolessay

JAB - 20SassSass says get out, flop

BJN Score : 3/5 (Edited the score because I realized I wanted it a tad higher.)
alright move. Not bad, but I wouldn't score it on the higher end. I'll keep high scores for the best of moves...
Zelda has any good moves? :^)))))))))

First, can we just talk about the visual?

All that sass.

She's like "EW get off me!" she looks so mad when using it. She must be thinking of all ha sweeping nerfs whenever she's jabbing, or any attack really b/c she looks angry during just about every attack. :^)

ANYWAYS,

Her Jab is definitely one of the more unique Jabs in the game IMO. First, it's the slowest to hit Jab in the game at frame 11. But it also has one of the lowest if not the lowest endlag totals for a 'finisher' or final jab part in the game. It only has 8 frames of endlag after the last hit. That's so short it's pretty much safe on block, mostly so if not badly spaced on a shield.

Its damage is ugh poor at 6% in three hits. That low damage is made up mostly by its very low endlag giving you the opportunity to get a small pool of followups from it. Jab > Dash attack is pretty BnB for Jab, and can net you as much as 15% to 18%, assuming all hits of jab connect and you hit with either of the initial hit-boxes. Its use as far as followups ends pretty quick, once they're at around 30-40% (Or 50% on some super fat and heavies.) you can kiss them goodbye. Really Jab's use aside some sort of spacing stuff is in the low percent range for followups.

Alternatively you can mix it up with Jab > Grab, which is very neat for Zelda.

Jab to Grab, I believe, is not an air-tight combo. That means if (Depending on the character.) The run, jump, spot-dodge/roll, or even use a very fast attack they might be able to avoid it, since her dash grab is frame 11. (Meanwhile her Dash attack is frame 6, allowing it to be much more consistently do-able.) The benefit of Jab to Grab is that an opponent may feel the urge to shield after being Jabbed, and thus, >>>grab<<<

Of course from grab we can get even more damage so yummy yummy.

One unintentional issue that can hamper Jab from being a clean and useful Jab is the issue with its multi-hits whiffing. While Sakurai and co put in a tiny biT more work to make it connect better, its hit-boxes still only hit forward even during the multi-hits, sometimes then dropping the target and leaving you with an even measlier 2-4% damage, and severely lowering the chance for a followup. It's just sad, really.

In addition, you need to be wary of crouchers or any animation (Such as certain aerial landing animations.) that make the target crouch low. Jab has almost no range below, and CAN be punished if crouched beneath. More info related to its crouch-dodge-ableness is that its hit-box is very high and borders on having anti-aerial approach uses. That design meshes well with Dtilt being the low hit and it being the high hit.

It's also really a problem that it's so slow to hit. Lots of times an opponent will likely get whatever hit-box out first before your attack, which sort of defeats the purpose of having transcending (No clank) priority, and a legit (well, albiet small.) disjoint. Try and imagine throwing out Ftilt to try and prediction hit an incoming attacker when they're running at you, yeah, you're basically doing that. You probably shouldn't.

Also, its three hits still only come out for one frame each and cover a longer than a normal smack, but still short length of 5 frames. So while it has some walling capabilities, they are just a little fraudulent...lol. It still needs to be restated though that it has transcending priority and a little disjoint; its range is pretty good for a jab still.

Overall I feel like it has some pretty good design balances, low damage and slow startup, but good range and transcending disjoint with basically no endlag giving you followup potential. The only misbalance to this is the small possibility that it won't connect properly. It's pretty unique too. I like that.

Also, I've heard things about Jab > FAir sweet-spot, but it's FAir's sweet-spot we're talking about

WOW, I realize I basically just did a Ffamran essay style post about only Zelda's jab lol. If I think of anything else I want to add here I may just pop it on at the end or something.

Edit : Decided to spoiler it because big.

Edit 2 : Oops! Forgot to mention any move I might like to discuss afterwards. I'll go with Dtilt.

Okay here we go!

Zelda's jab is one of her best moves, and one of her few good moves.

It has a nice disjoint and good range, and with its transcendent priority, it's great at stopping grounded approaches. It has some uses against aerial approaches as well, but only aerial approaches that are lower to the ground -- not a great anti-air move but passable.

The best part of this move is its very low end lag, which makes it generally very safe to throw out. And safe attacks are something Zelda is sorely missing, so this a must-use move. It's one of our most important spacing tools.

At low-mid percents, it combos into dash attack and her dash grab, which can lead to some damaging combos: jab > dash attack = 18% (assuming all 3 hits from jab connected and we sweet-spotted the DA), and jab > d-throw > n-air can do 13-23% (depending on how we hit with n-air, from the front or the back). We can even combo into jab from d-tilt, so d-tilt > jab > DA or d-tilt > jab > d-throw > n-air are great as well.

Jab not only let's us protect ourselves but can pump out some pretty good damage for a low risk, thanks to its low end lag.

Near the ledge it can even be used to push our opponent off and set-up for a d-air or LK edge-guard - situational but useful!

However, the move is not without its down sides.

First, it's not guaranteed that all 3 hits will connect, so we may deal as low as 2%. And if we only hit once, there often isn't enough hit stun to follow up with DA or her grab. Jab also stops leading into its combos around 40-50% for a lot of characters, so after that we can only hope to deal up to 6%. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for its relatively poor (for a jab) start-up; dealing 2-6% for a frame 11 move is pretty sad considering there are killing smash attacks just as fast if not faster.

The move also doesn't always reliably combo against certain characters even within that percent range: characters with fast n-airs can sometimes interrupt us before we can hit our DA or grab them, and sometimes Captain Falcon can stop us with his jab. Sometimes light and floaty characters can get pushed far enough away that we can't reach them in time with our poor mobility.

Second, the move trades very unfavorably, so if we messed up with spacing we're going to get hurt and likely sent flying while only dealing 2%.

Its benefits definitely out-weight its cons though, so overall I'd rate the move 3.5/5

edit: rating 4 --> 3.5. 4 was a bit too high I think, if we're gonna use halves.

Thanks for contributing everyone. I'm glad we're finally doing some Zelda metagame stuff~

Personally, I think jab is a pretty good move.
Pros:
- A quick punish
- Very little ending lag
- Disjointed
- Transcendent priority
- Good at stopping aggressive grounded approaches
- Combo starter: jab > dthrow > nair does about 21% nearly guaranteed, jab > dthrow > nair > sweetspot fair/bair does 41% (not guaranteed), and jab to dash attack which has already been mentioned.
- Kill setups. Yes, jab is a kill setup. Personally, I think this is a really unexplored part of jab. At high percents (80-100%) it has enough hitstun and sends at a very low angle to the point where your opponent can't airdodge safely before they hit the ground because they'll suffer landing lag and get hit anyway. So, you can do jab to Farore's Wind which is guaranteed if your opponent doesn't tech, which can be kind of hard to do since jab is kind of fast and there isn't much time to tech before Zelda reaches them. At about 80%, you'll have to angle Farore's diagonally down, and at 90% or higher, angle it completely horizontal.

Farore's is going completely horizontal in this gif.

With customs, you can do jab to Din's Flare (angled down) which is much safer and you can also chase them with Flare if they tech. It kills at about 100%. Weirdly enough though, on some characters they can't get hit by the sweetspot while lying down (Ganon is one of the ones I found.) Thanks Sakurai :^)

Cons:
- Not a lot of damage, making it not trade very well
- Slowest jab startup
- Even though it is a quick punish, it still isn't that fast

3.5/5 imo

Jab is 5/5 move just for troll factor alone.

Other things
- Well timed Jabs completely wall out all of Falcon's grounded approaches.
- If they miss the tech, Jab into FW2 is a possible outcome via tech chase.
- Perfect Pivot Jab is love & lyfe (& it slides)

Everyone else covered it all already

Wow, you guys are stealing the spotlight.

Anyways, I was thinking. Do you think it would be useful to know which approach Zelda's jab can stop. Like, it can stop Falcon's dash attack for example and even his falcon kick if you time it correctly. Perhaps we could test with other characters such as ZSS or MK (who likes to dash attack too).

Oh I forgot to respond to this lol sorry

It stops Falcon's dash attack and Falcon Kick as you said, but the only approach options stopped by jab that I can really see being useful are Pac-man's dash attack and Palutena's Superspeed, thought that one might be harder to stop since she goes so fast

Jab is a cool move, especially for Zelda. It's stupidly slow, but the almost nonexistent endlag opens up a lot of options for her. All you gorls have basically covered everything, but I just did some testing with jab and it looks like you can do jab>utilt at extremely low percents (meaning 3% and under on Mario) for a 13% combo. It's not all that useful because they have to be at point blank range and it's very situational, but I thought I'd let you gorls know about it.

This is one of Zelda's best moves, so I'd give it a 3.5 out of 5. The slow start-up really brings it down, though.

I seem to have arrived a tad late to this discussion as basically every facet of this move has been covered. That said, I like this move because it combos into FW2 if the opponent doesn't tech (the timing can be stalled for a moment if your opponent likes to tech everything so we can catch a basic tech. Won't help against tech rolls though). My biggest problem with it is the 11 frame startup though as it's beaten out by every other jab ever. It's why I like dtilt for up-close combat more. Speaking of dtilt, we should talk about that next.

3/5 for jab on my scale.

Dtilt is pretty much Zelda's "real" jab.

I give it 3/5 too. I'd go 3.5/5 if I can.

Pretty much all above me have stated the technical uses of this move. I personally agree with all statements. I find Zelda's Jab one of the more overlooked moves in Smash 4, it's good. I would give it a 3.5/5 as well. I use it when I can as Zelda and find it to be one of her best moves.. It does it's job well. Personally I think next debate should be at least Zelda's F-Tilt.. I'm not sure what others think of the move compared to myself. I might have an indifferent opinion about Zelda's F-Tilt. But not for sure.

I think Zelda's Jab has its best use in kill setups and stopping approaches. Her Jab has nonexistent endlag makes it her safest move in most situations. Her jab in this game is much better than it was in Melee and Brawl that's for sure.

Besides her F-Tilt I wanna discuss her U-Tilt as well.

honestly Zelda's Jab can stop almost any approach that's not Shulk/Peach Fair. The problem is trying to place that 11f hitbox out at the right time. It still can stop Ness Fair and many SH aerials that dont have gigantic reach. Its cool down makes it one of her better midrange baits because most people probably dont realize how fast Zelda can move after jabbing and might run in assuming she is open. I think Aero had a vid of Uthrow>jab working on Bowser or something like that.

I'm gonna give Jab a 3/5 its borderline high risk high reward because of its slow start up and non existent damage half the time (2%) but successful hits or hits on shield do give Zelda many potential follow ups and openings.

Well, one of Zelda's few quick moves (or it's quick to her at least) with decent range. Great follow up out of Dtilt, and can be used to combo into a throw or (the aforementioned) Farore's Wind/Din's Flare. At times, it can be a decent panic button attack if the enemy is standing right in front of you (or approaching you unsafely) and there's nothing else you can really do. It can be punished in if you do miss, but you can still get away with a whiff in certain situations. Much safer than... Almost the rest of her moveset, but don't rely on it.

Since I said I wanted to explore the use of every move into ledge guarding, I'll attempt something here. Not a conventional move for protecting the ledge at all. It can be great if they're recovering about level with the stage but slightly above, given you have a safe opportunity to use it, or they're simply standing right on the ledge. This can be followed up with a well timed aerial offstage, preferably anything except Uair, since they won't be launched above you, and will more than likely have to recover low.

I'll rate 3.75/5, since it has decent uses and followups, and has a quick startup. Obviously this isn't always your go to move, but when you do use it when you're supposed to, it's pretty rewarding.

I'd like to know how effective Jab is at stopping things like Sheik's SH Fair approach. If it can in fact stop her approach, it would be better than shielding since Sheik can FF it and land a Jab before we can do anything OoS (I believe this is true for a lot of characters, actually).

If it works it can be useful in other MUs too, but I feel Sheik is especially significant, hence why I used her for the example.

jab has the disjoint I believe for sheik to land in it and stuff her but that's some serious footsies that I wouldn't bother trying unless you know you can do it. I would just run from sheik Fair she tends to sh fair too close to Zelda to space Jab for stuffing it.

I missed the Jab discussion so I'm just going to write something short in spoiler tags here!

Spoiler

So jab is... kinda ok. The range is ok and it has very little ending lag. I mainly use it as a spacing move similarly to how you would use an Fsmash, except jab is actually safe. It also worls pretty well for baiting opponents thinking your stuck in lag. Especially beginners will try to dash attack you, which you can shield and upB. However, jab comes with a fair share of weaknesses. It's not all scary. Sometimes you can combo into grab or dash attack but that's only at low percents. At high percents she has no follow-ups and her dash is too slow to get anything out of. Even at low percents you have to hit them with the right hitbox: sometimes my opponents get hit for only 1% percent and they won't be sent flying at all. Second, for a move that doesn't have much of a reward it comes out very late. This move could come out a few frames faster.

2.5/5 for a Zelda move, 1.5/5 for this move in general (nobody would want this jab... seriously).

Spoiler: Dtilt, 5/27-5/30

Average score of 4.1/5

5/5

Combo starter at all percents. Kill set ups. Stops approaches. Pretty safe too. Also great at gimpinf and edgeguarding. Her best move hands down.

Dtilt hits frames 5-11, FAF 25. Damage 4.5%. Dtilt is a really good move. 4.5/5.

Dtilt is one of Zelda's best moves. It's her fastest, one of her few combo starters, decent range, hits below the ledge so it can interrupt recoveries, makes Zelda's hurtbox smaller, and is very difficult to punish. It's basically Zelda's only real tool in close quarters besides Nayru's Love with its frame 5 intangibility. It's my most used move of hers I'm sure (It's actually a problem when I switch to Samus because I instinctively want to use dtilt but Samus' doesn't act the same way and it gets me punished a lot).

4/5 Best quick attack Zelda has. It's the only thing that can challenge characters with quick jabs and such. It's a shame it can be punished though.

I vote we go through the rest of the tilts before moving on to smashes or aerials etc. so on to ftilt perhaps?

On ledge-grabbing/about to grab the ledge opponents, Dtilt combos into Ftilt, Fair, Dsmash & Fsmash at mid-high %s if they don't DI the Dtilt or tech the stage (I haven't checked all characters but I'm assuming atm that it works on everyone).

Great for ****ing on characters with non-active hitboxes on their recoveries

Onstage, it's the closest we have to a Jab so that's p cool too

3.5/5

Ahh Dtilt huh.

Dtilt's a hell of a drug.

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5/5 for reliability and being good.

My personal favorite use of this move is at approx. 60%, Dtilt> JumpCancled Farores Elevator. Its possible to 'true combo'. It occasionally kills light characters and non-DI'ers(or 'vectorers'? I dont know :I) But a modest combo even if it doesn't KO.

4/5

It's useful nearly all the time, actually safe, and a good "jab". I don't have a lot to say about this move, since it's good and so not as fun to talk about.

I agree we should do F-tilt next.

This is a solid move. One of Zelda's quicker moves on the ground, evades higher attacks, pretty safe and leads into possible followups at most or all percents. At times I wish it had better range, but the range isn't too bad at all.

At very low percents, D-tilt can lead into D-tilt > D-smash. At somewhat low percents, it can be followed up but an F-tilt, D-smash, or an F-smash (the latter can be avoided, but is difficult to avoid and usually hits). At mid-high percents, going for a F-air is the best option, but you can try to bait for an U-air as well. Farore's Wind is also a possible followup, but risky.

This is probably one of Zelda's more useful utility moves and is one of the few combo starters that she has alongside U-tilt, D-throw and Jab to an extent. 4/5

i'm surprised no one has mentioned that Dtilt is Zelda's best clank box. it clanks with alot of weak projectiles and moves in general very easily and its hilarious to clank with swords. i'm gonna give it a 3.5 only because as Zelda's "jab" its only downside is you can't drop shield>Dtilt you have to drop>duck+dtilt

i'm feeling Ftilt as the next move when we move from Dtilt.

It should be noted 70% or so of the time though, you'll be hitting on frame 5-6, which actually means it has around 18-19 frames of endlag, which ACTUALLY makes it completely unsafe on shield, (To iterate, if it is badly spaced opponents can shield grab it. Otherwise it has to be a faster OoS option.) and in some cases lighter characters can even attack and interrupt you. By no means is this bad frame data though, it's definitely one of her best moves in terms of frame data.

Hhnng, I may make an 'essay' like I did with jab, but I'm feeling too lazy. -_- in case I don't get to it, I'll get my score out early at 4/5.

Yeah Dtilt is actually not as safe as it looks, I get punished for it a lot. Pretty sure her leg is also a hurbox which can be shieldgrabbed (and the range is that big in the first place; shieldgrabbing it should be that hard).

None the less it's still her one of her better moves since it's fast and has little lag which means it's not terrible unsafe on whiff, and it should be safer if you hit them on shield while behind them (so they cant shield grab you).

I still feel there's something missing though... such as follow-ups. I feel like this thing has like no reward. At low percents it's ok but especially at higher percents where it pops them up and that's it. Where's the hitstun on this thing? I also don't like the fact that in a game where characters are airborne very often one of her most reliable moves hits low.

3/5 for a Zelda move, 2/5 in general (although I feel this move would be much better on characters with a good air game).

Dtilt is one of Zelda's go to moves for almost anything within its range. It's a quick, safe poke that can lead into many other moves depending on the percentages and how close the enemy is on hit. Low-Mid percentages allow an easy 20-ish% combo by Dtilt > Jab > Throw, while higher ones can let you combo into an aerial. Dtilt into a sweetspotted Fair will almost always net you a KO because of the opponent having to be at a high percentage for that combo to even be possible. It can clank with certain moves at a safe distance which can always be useful at times.

As for ledge guarding... You guys have pretty much got that covered already. It can hit certain recoveries when timed correctly so you can further harass them. Now if only it could spike...

I rate it a 4.75/5, since it's basically one of her best moves out of them all. I would say 5/5 if it did more damage. Still a great move though.

If Fox doesn't DI & Dtilt is fresh, Dtilt into Fair is a true combo from 71-77% =3

#themoreyouknow

Dtilt failed tech on bf followed by Fair or Bair is the love of my life

Spoiler: Ftilt, 5/31-6/3

Average score of 2/5

Since there's been a lot of conflict about the scores with no resolution, I'm just going to say rate however you want. We're all getting very similar scores anyway so it doesn't matter.

Alright, we're on to ftilt! I really like this move but I have no idea how to use it LOL. It's interesting that it's only one frame slower than jab so it can act as a "fast" kill move near the ledge or with rage. Ftilt has transcendent priority and it's disjointed so that's always good. It can also be angled so if your opponent is getting predictable with their aerial approaches you can use ftilt angled up as a diagonal anti-air. Angled down, this miiiight be able to hit people on the ledge so we should look into that for when people don't have invincibility. Forward tilt also has a surprising amount of range, having almost just as much as the last hit of fsmash. So, maybe it could be used as a spacing tool?

Of course, this move also has problems. Even though it's only one frame slower than jab, it isn't very fast. It'll also whiff point blank on some characters (

) so watch out for that. Also, it has a decent amount of ending lag.

Really interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this move.

Honestly I think I would give this move a 2/5. I think it's pretty situational overall, though angling it does give it more utility. The only way I've been using it is to follow up a sweetspot Down air at lower-mid percents. It has good range, has a disjoint, does decent damage, and has good killing power. The problems are that takes forever to recover from, whiffs point blank, and there is usually a better option to take. So I'm not the biggest fan of this move hopefully I'm just using it wrong and you gorls could correct me!

I think It don't whiff if you angle it though.
I Like it too, pivot ftilt is one of the best option to chase roll if DA won't work.
It can follow a dtilt at low percent. It shines as akill option in double, when you don't want to commit to F/Usmash or elevator.

Ftilt is p mediocre tbh. Can kill though at high %s at the ledge & pivoted Ftilt is cool enough as a spacing tool. Dtilt into Ftilt is p cool on characters on the ledge tho

I like ftilt as a kill move since it's relatively fast, easy to pivot with, and can be angled. Still, it's slow enough that it can create problems such as basically every jab in the world hitting us before the hitbox comes out. Furthermore, Zelda has so many other kill options that it's situational and often accidental on my part if I use and kill with it.. I like pivot ftilting ledge rolls for kills though. It makes me very happy. Can also be used as a followup after dtilt though fsmash is often better at low percents. I don't really have any other uses for it as I use dtilt and fsmash for spacing personally instead of ftilt.

2.5/5

Personally I'm indifferent with Zelda's F-tilt. I don't like it really. It doesn't have much options for it and it being a KO option rather than a follow-up or combo just doesn't give the move much use for me. Especially when D-tilt or U-tilt are much better options. I will say I like pivioting F-tilt though sometimes I'll accidently do it when I mean to grab. I give it a 2.5/5.

F-tilt....

Hm I looked over my handy-dandy Zelda Notes and all i had for this move for true combos is...

"Jab>F-tilt..."

With the Three dots and All! D:

But yeah I understand its a ranged attack and can be used for the spacies and what have you...Kinda. But its soo slow! Huh? Its only a frame Slower than Jab?..... Well why does it feel as long as a Skyward Sword Opening Cutscene!? Heyoooo!
....*crickets*
But really, this move is just, the embodiment of 'why?' You have jab right there. Its worth a button less of input and is faster.

I mean this is my LEAST used move. I was writing this post an hour ago, stopped to watch some replays. NONE of them did i once use it consciously. I feel i forget about it in a fight only until the connection lags on my Fsmash input and poops out Ftilt instead... really!

But hey, Glad im not the only Zelda Main. Im eager to hear some better uses of this move. ^^ Just reading some of the opinions of others have got me to thinking about this move more and its potential. ;3

i rate 2.5/5 "Zelda-Wide" xD

and rate 1.7/5 'Roster Wide' (seriously,Maybe this move has something. I just need to utilize it better)

I think we should be rating Zelda's moves as an overall relative to both the cast and her own attacks. because doing one or the other will give her bad RNG. at least thats how i have been rating them.

as for Ftilt i like pivot Ftilt as a scare tactic, when spacing sometimes. the ability to angle it up or down while turning around is great for swiping at Kirby trying to play crouch fest. up angled can also AA to some extent with more oomph than Jab can produce. unfortunately with Fsmash being fixed Ftilt has slim uses and honestly feels mostly useful at random or on accident like a failed pivot grab or pivot Fsmash. it takes more work to incorporate Ftilt than it does Usmash. 2/5

F-tilt isn't a good move but I don't hate it.

I mainly use it to combo after d-tilt if I'm against a character that can interrupt d-tilt > jab > DA/grab or if the character is at a % that knocks them too far away to follow up after jab.

I like that it can be angled. Sometimes I use it angled up as an anti-air move - if we're careful it works great against characters like Jigglypuff or Kirby. I also angle it down to catch smaller characters that jab or grab might whiff on. Downward F-tilt is usually my go to move to stop Mario's dash attack.

The move is situational but isn't too terrible. 2.5/5

Woo Ftilt, my favorite move. Just kidding. Probably one of my least favorites. The only real use for this is either using it in a pivot, or maybe swiping at someone who is suffering high end lag or just landed to keep them away. Slow startup, punishable end lag. You could go several matches in a row without using this and be fine. It's really that bad.

For ledge guarding, as mentioned before, running back and pivoting into this move could land you a KO. This only really works at high percentages when the opponent recovers high, landing barely on the stage. Even here it's something you don't want to be caught doing too often, but maybe the one time that you do they won't be expecting it. Still a better option than Usmash.

I rate this move a 2/5. It's really not that great. Kill it with fire. Buff it. Do something to make it more useful. I don't care. It can KO sometimes when in dire situations, or keep the enemy away, but makes you very vulnerable. Not worth the risk unless you're at a safe percent and they're about to die, then you can get careless. Oh yeah, let's also not forget about the massive dead zone.

Weirdly enough I've been using this move a lot lately...it isn´t safe on shield even when spaced is it? Nobody has punished me when I hit their shield with the tip of it but it seems really unsafe.

i think at max range Ftilt has a false sense of "safe" so nobody test it. but it does have alot of reach so we can avoid shield grabs when spaced Ftilt connects unless its some silly disjoint.

Ftilt is a bad move. However, that doesn't stop me from using it way more than I should. It's slow, laggy, and doesn't have much reward. However, the range is decent and it can be kinda useful if you pivot it. I've legit only had the dead spot happen to me once. I've tried to get the dead spot intentionally in training, but I can't seem to get it. It's close to her, isn't it?

I just want ftilt's Brawl angle back because ftilt>bair actually gave this move some use. There's really no reason to use it SSB4. I give it a 2/5.

I suggest we do utilt next. That way we can finish all of the tilts and move onto dash attack. Smashes would follow DA.

Ftilt>BAir definitely does not work in Brawl, (If that's what you were insinuating.) and because of its endlag, it more than likely wouldn't work in SSB4 either, lol.

I like how Ftilt didn't get any hit-box/range nerf unlike many moves in the transition to SSB4. That said it really is outclassed in almost every way by Fsmash imo, especially now that Fsmash is more consistent at connecting. Sure it hits a little faster but other than that you're pretty much using a weaker, and even less safe Fsmash smh.

I love how long ranged the move feels in this game. Sometimes you can get away with hitting a shield at Max range and going unpunished. Though, that's really just the opponent's fault. Overall for a tilt is does good damage, but has longer endlag.

I wonder what Ftilt would've been like if it got a sort of "Utilt treatment" and was fast/faster but weaker. (Maybe usable in neutral??) It's not like it's a very viable KO move anyways imo, aside very lucky stage-edge rage boosted hits.

New visual swipe is pretty hot too. She's still pretty mad that Lady Sakutena didn't improve it at all, as evidenced by her expression whenever she uses Ftilt. :^)
I shall score this gorl a 2/5

Ok I kinda forgot this thing existed, so I missed the dtilt discussion. I'm just going to give it a 4/5 compared to her other moves for reasons already stated. Compared to the rest of the cast, I would give it a 3.5/5 since it's basically a jab that can combo.

Ftilt...probably one of my least used moves. Its range is almost as good as Fsmash (or maybe greater? less? help.) and it has decentish knockback. It's a bit faster than Fsmash, so it's good if you need a spacer faster than Fsmash. But it's laggy, and not really safe. Plus it has that dead zone right in front of her. The hitbox doesn't last as long as Fsmash either. On top of all that, it has no combo potential (not counting that janky Jab>Ftilt).

I like pivoting this move a lot, though. I catch a lot of rolls with it. Pivoting is probably the best use for this move.

Can anyone confirm if an up angled Ftilt can stop aerial approaches, like Sheik's Fair? Or at least trade? That would be helpful in many MUs if you can time it right.

Overall, I say a 2/5 compared to her own moves. Same score compared to other attacks like it.

up angled ftilt can stop Ike nair and can hit him before fair...it AAs ok. I haven't tested thus widely though

It [Ftilt] has longer range than the multi-hits, (By like, a tiny tiny amount.) but the final hit of Fsmash has longer range.

Spoiler: Utilt, 6/3-6/6

Average score of 3.2/5

Yeah i dont use this move as much as I should.yet right now was in training mode and was doing auto-pilot,muscle memory stuff. I use this MORE than i first initial thought xD

Contrary to what you Cats say, all this nonsense about Anti-Air and "SPEED" and "COMBO POTENTIAL" is all thrown out a window for me xD I noticed i use it alot when landing from nair or fair or in general l
People dont seem to expect it most of the time. But it sucks it won't combo into virtually anything and even in that case when it does , another move would be a better option.i feel.

Honestly its horizontal range should not be utilized like ever. You'd have to be locking lips with your opponent to hit them to do the whopping...7% okay not that close but still There's No great combos for it other than another Utilt which only works 0% - around 25%. Why do that when you have Grab>nair>Read FollowUp to start off? It combos into Uair at later Percents. But come on. Down Throw....

but in theory it sees its a better 'trader' but i try not to get hit y'know? Its a fast move but just a single move, and with characters that just move better than Zelda in more of all aspects, whats the point....

oh right, its better than Usmash.



4Zelda: 2.7/5

4EntireCast: 1/5

BEST TILT HYPE

I really like utilt. It might not be it's amazing "lol bye!" Brawl kill move ripbeautiful but it's still pretty useful

Pros/Uses:
- Can combo and rack up damage very well. Usually you can do about one utilt to a nair or usmash on floaties/lightweights, 2 utilts on middleweights, and 3 to 4 on heavyweights/fast fallers. On heavyweights I always try to do utilt x4 > nair > fair/bair which does ridiculous damage and usually connects due to their size. Also combos from uthrow on fast fallers at low %s and dtilt on anyone at low %s.
Edit: OH forgot to mention, at low percents on fast fallers you can also do utilt to grab
- Fast. Comes out frame 7 and starts combos which is pretty good.
- Not too much ending lag
- *Slightly* disjointed hitbox
- Can be a very fast, last resort kill option with rage. With 150% rage it kills Jiggly at about 115% and Bowser at about 150%. - Covers rolls since it hits on both sizes of Zelda
- One of her sassiest moves

Cons:
- Doesn't do a lot of damage, so if you can't combo off of it you're not getting much reward from it
- Even though it's disjointed, it just barely is
- Sometimes the move doesn't even combo like it should. It's hard to describe what I mean but if you go into training mode and try to do two utilts (front hit) consecutively at 0% on Diddy he just falls under the second one and can punish you. SAKURAIIIIII
- Horizontal range is somewhat lacking

3.5/5

My biggest problem with u-tilt is that it's a combo move but it's not really designed to be one.

Its long duration makes it punishable on whiff and shield. It'd be better if it didn't last as long, since it's not really a great defensive move/anti-air like it was in Brawl. It's in between a combo move and a protective sweep and doesn't excel in either place in Zelda's move-set.

The move is definitely useful and it can combo into itself or into n-air really well, but unfortunately - we all knew the but was coming - it's only useful at low to mid percents because soon they get knocked too high to follow up with another u-tilt or an n-air. Normally this wouldn't be a problem but she can already rack good damage up at similar percents with jab combos and combos off her d-throw. D-tilt > jab > DA/grab or d-tilt > f-tilt also work at these percents and are good options, so if you happen to rack up damage with any of these instead, u-tilt then has almost no purpose for the rest of that stock.

Although jab stops comboing at mid percents, it still is an effective defensive move to stop approaches, so it's always useful. U-tilt, however, does poor damage and isn't at least safe like jab is, and it's a poor anti-air move. I prefer to use f-tilt as an anti-air to be honest.

If Zelda still had Brawl upsmash, this move might fit her move-set better but instead it fits a combo role already filled by other good options and leaves her without a good anti-air move or a good vertical finisher.

Against some characters, like with jab, it doesn't combo very well. Characters with quick n-airs - Yoshi, for example - can n-air right after we hit him at low percents and hit us before we can use another u-tilt or before we can hit him with n-air. This means that against certain characters it's not really useful at all, since we'll only deal 7.2% while leaving ourselves open, and again, it has almost no defensive properties.

It's better than her f-tilt, though I like her f-tilt better personally.

3/5 compared to the cast: it's decent.

I like utilt in this one. I actually find that its a very useful anti-air move and use it constantly against characters like Jiggles, Kirby, and Wario. Still, the small disjoint makes it useless against characters with highly disjointed aerial approach options like Pit[too], Ike, Shulk, etc. I would only ever use it on a character that's in the air unless that character was incredibly close to me though as its horizontal reach is mediocre and it hits very high so short characters need not worry about it. I do like low percent combos with it though and will sometimes find myself dthrowing an opponent every now and again, mistiming my jump on nair, jabbing, yet still being able to follow up with an utilt especially if I've conditioned my opponent to airdodge after dthrow which will lead to another utilt on heavies and a nair on lightweights.

What this moves seriously lacks is safety. Whiff this move and you will get punished, I guarantee it. It also trades more often than it should with aerial moves that it's designed to counter like Sheik's fair and any sex kick ever.

3.5/5 on my scale.

Up Tilt - "The Wonderful World of Disney" (But very quickly)

My Score : 3.25/5 roughly between my scores for Jab and Dtilt, I like this move. :D

She looks mad during this move too. I wonder if she only sees this move's changes as a nerf. Is the notion of it being a nerf instead of a buff canon then??? Maybe Sakurai just told her beforehand she was getting nerfed all over, she got mad, then her face got stuuuuck. :^)

This move looks very pretty on WiiU, where the light element is very apparent, and it looks like a cute ball of light at her finger tips~

Fun fact: Contrary to popular belief, Utilt got NO hit-box size nerfs from Brawl. So unless the bone set structure of her arm was significantly changed, Utilt has the same range as Brawl.

I like Utilt's changes in this game. I just wish Usmash hadn't also had its KB nerfed. So then she could've had the weak faster one, and the slow strong one. Instead she's got the weak, somewhat fast one, and the snail-paced, somewhat alright KB one...lol

While technically it's not truly safe on shield, Zelda can sometimes get away with hitting a shield with it, mostly only when you hit with the back hit, though, which only has 19 frames of endlag. WHICH, is actually a couple frames safer than Dtilt due to doing more damage.

It's got great reach, (With its speed.) being able to tickle through low platforms like BF. While it's technically not a super fast move, it IS something she can sort of use in neutral. It's only 32 frames long, which is pretty short. It does bother me a little that many characters with fast aerials, or that are remotely light can easily escape any sort of Utilt followup. I like that it actually feels like it has unique merits in this game that wasn't there before, instead of the Brawl "spray and pray"

And hey, it got that 0.7% damage buff a while back which is just downright OP hype action.

Personally I think its speed/duration makes it worse as an anti-air, not its range. It lasts a while but she moves her arm faster than she did in Brawl, and I find that this gives her less protection diagonally in front of her than in Brawl, when it covered that area (and the area around her, really) a bit longer.

U-tilt in Brawl also traded very favorably and was worth trading if you did, while it's not in Smash 4.

It's good to know about the range, but the range of the move is not really a problem I have with it.

I think utilt as an AA is ok considering its overhead coverage which is better at defending Zeldas head better than usmash due to being faster. That spot on Zeldas forehead has always been an open spot on her and I think the faster utilt helps alleviate some pressure on it at times.

I find utilt to be an all purpose tool with no purpose. It can combo/kill/AA but isn't the greatest at any if those things. BUT because it can do all these things I think we have better situations to land utilt because no one expects it to come out for any of those things unless they fight Zelda enough. 3/5

If you hit with the back hit it can combo into itself (but why do this to yourself), Usmash (~0-25%), Nair, LK (ya rly ~20-30%) & Uair (~50%). All provided no Rage, Utilt is fresh & no DI/Vectoring. Utilt into Usmash is still a thing with the initial hitbox but the % range for it is really small somewhere between ~22-25% on fast fallers

Uthrow -> Utilt is a true combo for 18% on 5 characters (provided no Rage & both moves are fresh):

Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Sheik: 1-21%
Fox: 0-20%
Falcon: 11-24%
Greninja: 6-23%
Falco: 5-18%

Utilt. Hmm. Let's see... Now used as a combo move more than anything (or a safer anti air than Usmash of course). Great at lower percentages for racking up damage. Often used after a Dtilt depending on how close the opponent is, and can be comboed into itself about another time before following up with an aerial. Why can't this still be a KO move since Usmash is garbage now? Oh well.

In situations for ledge guarding, it just basically functions as your anti air when recovering mid-high. Can be used to apply pressure and push them off the ledge again, but chances are they'll be at a percent too high to really follow up. You may have to predict their fall and act accordingly without being too reckless. Chances are you'll be running towards the center of the stage to catch them. If you're on a stage with a platform, pray it gets in their way and they land on it so you can casually Uair them into oblivion.

I'll rate it a 3.5 out of 5. It could be better, but could be worse, but is generally good and covers most the area that circles Zelda. Better option than Usmash in almost every situation (because Zelda is too slow to get right under anyone for it to even hit) because of its arch, and people can't casually fall out of it. The end lag isn't too bad, and neither is the startup. Overall a decent move.

Spoiler: Dash attack, 6/7-6/10

Average score of 3.6/5

We're on dash attack now. This is Zelda's fastest hard punish, coming out at frame 6. This is my most used OOS option since it comes out frame 6 and can punish moves with long range since it pushes her forward. You can also combo into it from jab and dtilt at low to mid percents. It can kill too, so that's nice. It's a pretty decent move but there isn't much to it

3.5/5

I mean, we like to point out that it's pretty laggy, but still, for a dash attack it's lag isn't too bad. It's on the quick end of laggy dash attacks...lol. Pls don't think I mean it's not unsafe. It isn't, buT... It could be a lot worse *coughcoughPalutenacoughcough*

It's also a fast hitter, with good range while not being screwed by being 2 non-consistent hits (petch) it also has great potential damage; it can do as much as 12%, while most dash attacks that can do that much generally have larger downsides than Zelda's. Otherwise it does 9/6% which is good/decent.

It CAN KO. Simply put. Though, it still isn't a very good KO move. (It KOs a bit earlier than the average Dash Attack.) But I wanted to point that out.

It just cri's when it's blocked. It's pretty alright for a dash attack, though, and somewhat useable as far as Zelda's moveset goes imo. I'll give it a 3.5/5. :D

As for Dash Attack I think it's one of Zelda's better moves, it works decently for kills, great for punishing rolls and has better priority than before. But it is highly punishable. I'd give it 4/5. But this is my experience with it.

Dash attack is actually one of my go-to moves for Zelda as it is actually one of her few approach options, is a very quick punish tool, and does good damage on top of being a potential kill option if the match drags on. It's got good range and Zelda can push herself behind a shielding opponent if timed right though that rarely helps any more than just hitting shield and being immediately shield grabbed. On that point, the fact that this move is very punishable is why I wouldn't give it a perfect score. Plus, it's beat out by several other dash attacks or trades with several other dash attacks (It will win these trades though) such as Ness' dash, Villager's dash, etc.

3.5/5 for me too.

Dash Attack is great at punishing because it moves Zelda and comes out faster than dash grab, it can actually get Zelda under some aerials and being able to kill on sweetspot is a bonus. sadly Dash A leaves us open on shield to be punished. 3/5

It's decent

Use it to punish

Don't use it for approach

KK

Most of you have already covered the ups and downs of the move.

I actually think Zelda's dash attack is one of the best dash attacks in the game. Unfortunately, Zelda's poor dash speed reduces some of the potential of the move and limits it to somewhat short range punishes because she often can't reach opponents fast enough. If her mobility was better, the move would be more useful. But as it stands, it's pretty solid.

3.5/5 seems good to me.

Zelda's Dash Attack, one of the best ones there is (not on shield). It does exactly what you need it to do when you can get it to hit. It does a decent amount of damage and has good knockback. What would make this move great is if Zelda was faster and could get ANYWHERE in time to use this move with more success.

With ledge guarding, this move can hit people before getting to the ledge if they're recovering horizontally, or slightly above the stage. If they're suffering end lag after landing for whatever reason after landing on the stage, you can easily knock them back off for a possible KO. If they're safe from end lag, they'll probably throw out a shield, so be careful. Mix this up with a grab in the same situation and you should be alright. If you don't hit with the sweetspot, you can probably set them up to get KO'd or knocked away again easily.

I'll rate it a 4/5. It's one of Zelda's better moves with great priority and decent range. It's downside is that Zelda isn't too quick and can't always get to the enemy in time and gets punished by a shield instead. If you compare it to Peach's, which is similar, I'd take Zelda's any day.

Spoiler: Fsmash, 6/11-6/14

Average score of 3.4

I call it the sassmehameha.
4/5 it's a very good smash, pretty quick, pretty safe, pretty powerful, it lingers, it's disjoint, it's transcendant.

Zelda's fsmash is also good at catching standard ledge getups since it lasts forever

I think her fsmash is a decent move.

It comes out on frame 16, which while not fast is not slow either. Its range is okay. I say okay because the range of the multi-hits could be better, and unfortunately it can be beaten out by moves that should not be disjointed. And if it trades, Zelda will deal only 1%. The range of the final hit is really good, but it comes out on frame 24, so it's too slow for reliable spacing but not impossible. Its transcendent priority means that it can be used to beat other moves, provided they don't have a larger disjoint. It can stop a lot of mis-spaced approaches.

Like all most of Zelda's moves, it has punishable end lag. It's super punishable on whiff, and it's not safe on shield either.

It has decent KO power, but not amazing. However like @ S.F.L.R_9 said, its long duration makes it great for catching ledge get-ups, and it's probably one of the best smash attacks for that.

Luckily all hits connect most of the time now, though occasionally someone will bounce out of it.

My biggest problem with this move is that it leaves her more open than other smash attacks that will KO her just as early if not earlier than Zelda can KO her opponent due to her relative light weight. If the move had its Brawl end lag, it would be really good imo.

edit: It's also good at catching spot dodges and it shield stabs really well.

3/5 compared to the cast.

P gud move after the patch.

There really isn't much to say about this move. Pivot FSmashes are p cool. It can combo from Dtilt at the ledge but there are much better options out there (like Fair, Ftilt & Dsmash).

Rage really helps this move though at KO %

Theorycraft: It might be safe of shield against Luigi if spaced (will need to lab this mind)

Zelda's Fsmash is a pretty decent Fsmash, even though it was hurt by the 10 frame duration increase.

Hits around in the middle in terms of Fsmash speed. Obvs it's a little slower than most moves. Its range is pretty good, though, her extended arms sometimes make it feel kind of worse ranged. Terrible if it trades, doing only 1% and no real hit-stun. Sometimes you can troll people though if you don't connect all of the hits and they fly behind you and score a grab or dash attack, lol. Very rare though so don't rely on it.

Now with improved loop hits I actually believe this iteration of Fsmash is better than Brawl's. Something not a lot of people know is that Fsmash got a small KB INCREASE from Brawl, which is kind of hilarious, but great nonetheless. Fsmash also does alright damage, at least for its overall speed. Though not actually 100% safe on block Zelda can sometimes get away with hitting a shield with it when well-spaced. It has less frames of vulnerable end lag than Ftilt and Dsmash. (And ofc Usmash, but lel.)

It's power and improved consistency make it pretty neat against the number of lightweight high tiers, or high tiers that have received reduced KO pwer on moves. It's really one of Zelda's only reliable KO moves, which sadly says a lot about her lacking reliable KO moves in some ways.

Another neat thing is that Zelda crouches to match the hit-box height. I'm not sure how useful that really is, but it seems nice. Probably would be more useful if Fsmash clanked, I daresay. IDK I think I'm rambling now lol.

Fsmash's new visual is pree cute too. I. LOVE. How the lighting effect actually changes from blue to pink with the different colored blasts <3

I'll rate it 4/5

I've loved this move even before the patch. I actually used it for spacing which wasn't always a good idea but since it does have some of the best range in Zelda's arsenal, it paid off more often than it should have. I've found that a lot of people have trouble shielding all of this move. They can't seem to get all the hits memorized and end up getting the last one when they drop shield. This goes for tournament level players. Dunno what's up with that. Most of the rest of this move has been stated. Multihit wrecks spotdodges, disjoint helps in spacing, kill potential is quite good (killing around 120% with no rage).

3.5/5 It's my favorite smash of hers but it's got its problems.

Hmm i don't really kill with this move, when i do it's practically OFF the stage edge with my opponent at like %2468....Haha nah but i have a hard time implementing the move safely. When i land it, its only on a roll read or blasting the ledge.

Im sure it can be used effectively for spacies, interchanging between ftilt and the Fsmash can make for a decent mind game in smaller confined space, pivoting the moves on opponents roll Keeping them on one side. its worth a shot.

Pretty strong move when connected actually so that a plus for me. I believe it shield dmg is pretty good? Enough for one SP Fair for sheild break? Just throwing that out there i dont know **** :")


PrePatch i was able to pull off Dtilt>Fsmash at around %60-%72, flipping my opponent behind me and if they hadn't teched i could Farores Elevator to KO. Now its more awkward to land PostPatch and haven't tested more with it. Works on Robin at %80 though...

3/5

F-Smash!

Sometimes I see the sparkles hitting them with no effect but whatevs.

People of all skill levels drop their shield early just to give us an undeserved KO. I guess they're hoping to punish us right as the end lag starts with a smash or something. It don't work boys, stop doing that. It's shameful how many of my fraud KOs are from that.

I hate that F-Smash is no longer spammable because apparently Sakurai/team decided what Zelda needs is a sprinkle of more endlag everywhere.

Transcendent priority is nice, it kills sorta early, it's decently fast for a Zelda kill move, and she bends really forward for some extra range. But that 3 game strong (with a patch!) unreliability hurts.

3.25/5 for the cast
Maybe 4/5 for Zelda.

My move of choice when I get those fat shieldbreakers!

If you can avoid decaying this move, which is hard given Zelda's general lack of good options, you can nearly always kill with this move at like 80% on most of the cast that matters. If you're going to play Zelda seriously, learning how to finish stocks as soon as possible is critical, because you won't get many opportunities.

The main difference between Fsmash and all the rest of her kill moves is that it isn't so hard to hit with. I never really considered her Dsmash a good kill move, but more like a savior if the opponent is past 130%, so Fsmash is probably her best kill option in most situations.

Something you can do with it that I didn't really see mentioned directly is, against a good opponent, stand near the ledge and do something like dtilt to make it seem as if you're covering a standard getup, then turn and Fsmash the hell out of them. It's very easy to time and will put them back on the ledge in most situations or flat out kill. I know baiting spotdodges and rolls have been mentioned, but this particular situation has won me tournament matches.

Spoiler: Usmash, 6/14-6/17

Average score of 2.6

We're on usmash now! We'll be talking about usmash in the newest patch which is actually fairly good.

Ok first off, look at how beautiful usmash is. SO MANY SPARKLES

Believe it or not, this is now Zelda's most powerful smash attack, killing at about 90% on Sheik. Now that it reliably kills, it's uses are even better.

- It's very good at catching standard ledge getups since it lasts forever. Now that it kills, it's worth doing that even more
- Very good for racking damage together from stringing utilts or into an usmash at low percents, uthrow into usmash on fast fallers at low percents, or from a dtilt at mid percents.
- If you run and jump cancel it it can be a good punish since it goes farther than just running and usmashing
- Decent-ish anti-air since it's disjointed and kills, though it's slow.
- An alright OOS option, though nowhere near as good as Brawl due to the range reduction
- Very good move to punish airdodges with
- If you read a spotdodge, usmash will outlast it.

I'd give it a 3.5/5. It's very good at a lot of things but it's horizontal range is just like lolwhere

Ofc gorl it's just among ha most fab moves. I always liked how it looked. "Waves Good B Y E to ha opponents." In the WiiU version it's just very pretty imo.

TeeHee what a timing for Usmash to be buffeT. Right before we all wanted to tr4sh it.

Now with the KO power it can function a lot like Bowser Jr's, if you've ever seen Tweek play, he'll get really good reads and KO incredibly early with it. Now Zelda's is basically MewTwo's in terms of power, so...

Overall it's still working with very small hit-boxes and a lot of endlag. It can be very rewarding on hit, now being among the strongest multi-hit Usmashes, as well as having one of the highest damage totals of Multi-hit Usmashes, as well as just decent as far as move-wide comparison.

Overall, not super incredible, but now actually on par in terms of usability with other Usmashes. I'll give it a 3/5.

Fun fact, after some brief testing it KOs at roughly the same percent as Palutena's strong Usmash hit now

I'd say it's okay at this. Its range still makes it kind of tough to hit with reliably. Fsmash is a lot better for this.





I don't agree with this at all. I think it's a terrible anti-air. It's disjointed but the range - both horizontal and vertical - is bad, so unless you've read where they were jumping to and you can use it before they attack, it'll trade with pretty much any move. And because of its weak multi-hits, that's a losing trade every time.





With its new KB upgrade, we can kill more reliably at certain percents than if we were to punish with FW because it can't be DI'd. Of course this only works with a punishable move and if they end up practically right on top of us, but it's useful nonetheless.





I'd say it went from a 1/5 to a 2/5.

Its range and end lag just make it too situational and risky in most situations to be a good move. Now it at least can be worth the risk sometimes, but I don't think the move will get much better unless they actually give it hitboxes lol.

Do people still fall out of the move the same as before?

Pretty much. It can happen against anyone, but it's rare outside of specific characters; knowing Zelda though it'll happen at the least opportune moment.

^I laughed at that waaaay too much.

The new Usmash is great. It's like a mini Elevator when you have rage. I wonder how long it will take for everyone to realize it's actually a threatening move now...

I missed posting on Fsmash, so I'm gonna just give it a 3/5 for being ok, but not stellar.

usmash I'm gonna keep it at a 2.5/5 Outside of specific situations its hard to use Usmash because of its no hitbox other than off of a read lol. Even on ledge get up you have to basically be there as they start to climb up it just kills better now than before.

The only thing that has changed with this ability is that it isn't underpowered any longer. It still has a myriad of problems that haven't changed, from having characters fall out, to having terrible range and virtually no priority, to still being relatively weak for a slow and "strong" character such as Zelda. It's a big step in the right direction, but it's still my least used move and still arguably her worst grounded A move.

EDIT: Okay I may be exaggerating a little.

I used in on FG today. I have the same problem I had with it in brawl in that I find it personally difficult to catch a falling opponent in it because she stays immobile as the opponent comes down with whatever variable fall speed they have (Catching fatties is easier than catching ZSS for instance) so I get punished hard for using it. Furthermore, people seem to understand that shielding all of it is their best chance of survival, something people don't seem to understand with fsmash. I don't know why this dichotomy exists but it does and it bother me because I wanna kill grounded opponents with it but, if they keep shielding it, I will be a sad panda. I got a sweet 80% kill on a Jigglypuff though.

After the patch I'll give it a 2.5 but it may even become a 3 (in my book that's pretty high for Zelda). Of course the range and speed is still as awful as before the patch but it's actually a viable kill move that's worth throwing now. If you look for the right opportunity you can get in more Usmashes than you'd think.

Spoiler: Dsmash, 6/18-6/21

Average score of 2.3

Dsmash is good because its speed but lacks the range and power to be useful. Except at very high %s or against Little Mac it's not a good kill move. The range is lacking so you must be up against the opponent to land it.
Dsmash is great for GTFO and launching an opponent away, possible offstage for a Dair gimp. Provided you're close the speed will beat most moves and the low end lag is safe.
Dsmash is kind of limited to defensive but it fills that nitch well. 2.5/5

other than the magical sliding Dsmash, Dsmash is bad. Its really a quick 10%(corrections?) damage that's only good at high percents near the ledge. its a bad get off me move cause it lags just enough for Zelda to be punished (nayrus is better for added invincibility). it can combo after low percent Dtilts but again is a lackluster option. its range is bad but its speed makes it ok sometimes if someone goes deep into your shield, especially near the ledge or you panic it. it can also be a last minute finisher on people refusing to die and a gimp set up for the all of 3 bad recoveries in the game lol 2/5

Down Smash, the smash that won't KO anything until ~150%, as opposed to the new Usmash and Fsmash which can KO much earlier. This is Zelda's only smash attack that you can't fall out of, so technically it's her most reliable. It can occasionally hit both in back and in front for extra damage, but it hardly ever happens. This move covers a little bit of distance, and is only really used for punishing rolls.

You can't really edgeguard with this move. The only use I can see in that situation is baiting an air dodge into the ground, and hitting them with this if you don't feel confident with your other attacks (for some odd reason). Perhaps if they've grabbed the ledge twice you could hit them with it while they're still hanging on. The good thing about using this near the ledge just in general is the fact that it sends the opponent at an angle downward... Perhaps at a 345 degree angle? Because of this, opponents occasionally can't recover and you're good to go, but this isn't always the case since recoveries are so good in this game.

I'll rate this move a 2.5/5. In most situations I would use Nayru's over this one, since it can be used in the air, can also punish rolls and even spot dodge because of its lasting hitbox, and at the right percent can sometimes combo into Farore's. It does its basic function as a Dsmash (to hit on both sides) and gives you breathing room whenever you do land it. I don't know how it does on shield since I only use it in situations where I anticipate a roll, but it doesn't have as much endlag as Nayru's (I think), so sometimes it's the better option. Mediocre move, could have less startup or range, but not bad.

Down smash is literally a godsend against Little Mac. It'll gimp him pretty much no matter what and it'll trade with his up b. The only other reason I use dsmash is to punish ledge vulnerability since it sends at such a bad angle that they'll either be gimped or set up for an edgeguard. Though, you can do a lot better things to ledge vulnerability than dsmash such as dair of bair. The only other reason I'd use this move is as a get off of me move, but Nayru's does that infinitely better so...I don't find this move very useful at all. 1.5 imo

oh one other thing about the ledge and Dsmash is if people hit Phantom with an UpB while trying to reach the ledge like Mario's upB Phantom makes Dsmash guaranteed on like a counter hit since they are still attacking but hitting Phantom so Zelda is free to send them packing lol.

Another thing that makes this move worse is that it has, according to the data in the Fairy Fountain, unnecessary sour spots (really close to Zelda). The KB and damage aren't any different, but it launches them at a drastically different angle (361 degrees instead of 20 degrees from the front; 361 instead of 160 from the back) that isn't useful for KOs or semi-spiking. It's annoying when you're at the ledge and land a d-smash when your opponent is at high percents only to have them knocked at a terrible angle so they survive. So despite not being a multi-hit, it's not 100% reliable -- well, it is with proper spacing, but a GTFO move like this shouldn't need careful spacing to be effective lol.

The only good thing about this move is its speed -- that's it. It's bad at KOing in most situations, it has poor range, bad end lag and is unsafe on whiff and shield, and does okay-ish damage.

Being tied for Zelda's fastest attack give it some points, but the move is bad.

2/5

Congrats Sakurai - you managed to turn two amazing smash attacks in Brawl (Brawl up and down smashes) into shi*** ones, on an already bad character.

I'm shocked to see that I'm probably going to be the most optimistic around here. I feel most people are still comparing her Dsmash to its Brawl incarnation and basing their scores off that.

I think Dsmash is actually pretty decent, mainly because of its speeds (frame 4 or 5?). Its range and power have been nerfed for no good reason, but it still has decent range and power, especially for a fast move. It has some lag on it but for a Dsmash I feel Zelda's one is actually very safe. You can get away it with reasonably often.

Most people seem to think this move is inferior to Dtilt but it definitely has some good qualities over Dtilt. I'm not sure if it has more horizontal range, but I'm pretty sure it does have more vertical range which means it's harder to jump over it. Dsmash may have more lag, meaning it's unsafer on whiff) but it also has a lot more shieldstun. I don't feel Dsmash is much unsafer than Dtilt actually. Dsmash gives the opponent a guaranteed 11/12 (?)% of damage while sending thing them at a very unfavorable angle whereas Dtilt only does 4%. At lower percents Dtilt's reward is dependent on the follow-up but you're not always going to the the follow-up. At high percents Dsmash has better reward than Dtilt without any doubt. Lastly, Dsmash hits behind you which is very useful as gtfo move in a game with very free movement.

I'll give it a 3. Maybe even a 3.5, but I don't want to get carried away.

OH. MY. GOSH. THIS SO MUCH. To everything Zelda does.


And yes, Dsmash has the tiniest bit more range than Dtilt in front at least, I have never tested the back, but since it has less range than the front iirc, than the back is probably shorter ranged than Dtilt. Its vertical range is definitelt better than Dtilt, and at the edges of the move, it should hit lower beneath ledges than Dtilt. So if you like, ledge-trump and then space yourself near the edge, you can do a Marth-style ledge hit with sweet-spotted Dsmash (Like his Fsmash trick.) and Dsmash KOs pretty well at ledges.

It was weird that it got and extra startup frame, making it 5. I'm only salty about that though because someone else has a frame 4 Dsmash, which means we no longer have OR EVEN tie for the fastest Dsmash smh. It has one more frame of lag than before, so very negligible amounts. Though, both hits should not be safe on shield, especially the front one, which has like, 34 frames afterwards. While the average move has only 25 ish frames after. SO, super unsafe.

Also, for its speed, it does do good damage with enough range. If anything trading it in for a Dtilt once in a while will at least score you about as much damage as three Dtilts. For the same hit speed. I think the move is at least not truly a bad move, just overlooked for usage in light of similar options on other moves. Except no other move gets gimp angle on-stage? :D I suppose JigglyZelda said it right that there are like 3 recoveries unfit to make it after a Dsmash and only 3, lol.

I'll score it a 3/5 as well.

For some reason, I wasn't getting notifications on this thread as of Thursday so I apologize for the late response. Basically everything about the move has already been covered. Some little things that I can add to the conversation though: dtilt>dsmash is still a thing at low percents though not always the best choice as low percent dtilt hits lead to aerial combos with nair and even Lkicks. I have gotten a rare KO with it on people that recover high since, after using a second jump and getting hit by a dsmash, most characters can't recover. However, that situation is very rare. Endlag makes it unsafe, its range is mediocre, it's overshadowed by Nayru's Love in almost every way. I like its speed. That's about it.

2/5

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but if you Dsmash them at the ledge at high % it sets up for a Din's Fire that some characters are forced to get hit by (or airdodge to their death).

Just a little setup for a low risk Din's KO. Just don't accidentally walk off and SD :^)

Spoiler: Nair, 6/21-6/26

Average score of 3.8

Nair is p fun yea

I've been thinking lately of chasing people offstage with Nair when they're knocked close to the blastzone as an alternative way to edgeguard, especially on characters with not so great horizontal recovery.

The changes to Nair with the recent patch nerfed our reward from grabs slightly (Dthrow -> Nair doesn't do as much as it did because we always got the opponent at the back) but it slightly buffed our punishment combo game thingy because it added a bit more hitstun with doing 2% at the front & the landing lag is reduced by 3 frames.

Possible falling Nair follow-ups: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...search-repository.370698/page-7#post-19423977

I will need someone to test out which characters FF Nair -> Dtilt, FF Nair -> FW & FF Nair -> Usmash are guaranteed on.

Note: falling Nair is not a viable approach option because of its landing lag. Use it more as a punishment tool more than anything

i'm going to rate Nair a 3 instead of a 2.5 only because of its new found landing comboability.

Nair actually is ok in an air to air situation. its disjoints actually protect Zelda if her Nair is already out because she will more or less overlap her opponents hurtbox before their hitbox touches her as long as Nair was already in animation before their attack was. it's always a bit risky to do that but you can gain a great momentum shift if it works (you can Nair Peach before she can wack you with the crown) damage is ok, it combos ok, and chase Nair Nair Nair is fun if you've got momentum going. you can catch people airdodging cause Nair goes so long but its a bit hard since the hitbox is only like her hands and if they DI into her body they might get away. Nair is also really nice offstage for pesky characters that like to try an avoid Dair or with somewhat ambigous recovery ability. because Nair last long enough you can basically start it early and Yolo into them, at worst the air dodge but its risky for some characters so they might just take the hit anyhow.

landing lag reduced by 3f? it still has some of the worst landing lag in the world. Sakurai could have at least let us keep our (if you land on X frame you autocancel which was like rotation 2-3 in brawl) but no. meaning things like RAR Nair are bad and Nair at nothing to try and bait is bad cause landing just a hair too early gives so much landing lag. then despite i said you can intercept people with Nair the risk/reward tends to always be risk+5/reward-2 which makes it almost a player by player case even against Wii Fit and her no hitboxes.

3/5 i want to do Dair next lol

I've been using nair more after the patch than I ever had pre-patch. The fact that it autocancels means it is actually one of Zelda's few safe options, the multihit aspect means airdodging it isn't as viable as airdodging literally any of our other aerials, it's got a slight disjoint meaning well-spaced nairs can beat out some other characters' aerials. It's new combo potential make it a kill setup, easy way to rack up damage (nair>jab>dash attack or nair>dtilt>nair>Lkicks), it can string into itself. I've gotten strings of 5 nairs on people that try to answer with their own aerial that is just slow enough that I catch them anyway. I've strung nairs together on people dragging them all the way offstage to the blastzones. Just earlier today, I got my first black/red lightning with nair because I carried a Link from the edge of FD all the way to the blastzone and got back myself. Furthermore, it might actually work better than dair for offstage kills since it's a multihit making it more difficult to avoid by airdodging, it carries the opponent down, and we can recover from FF nair offstage where a lot of characters can't. I've been gimping every character offstage with this since the patch (Not that the patch made this a thing, it just encouraged me to use nair more) save for characters like ZSS and Sheik who have amazing recoveries. This move should honestly be B&B for Zelda now. It's possibly her best move.

4/5 A little less landing lag and a larger disjoint would make it perfect.

Alright, nair, easily Zelda's best aerial and possibly one of her best moves overall. Nair functions as a:
- Combo starter
- EXTREMELY RISKY landing option (aka you should never do this unless you see an opening) with high reward if you hit with the front
- Kill setup
- Edgeguarding/gimping tool

Something I don't see a lot of people use nair for is as a combo starter out of a short hop on taller characters. At 0% you can do nair > jab/grab and at low percents you can do nair > utilt/running jump cancelled usmash

Falling nair is now an amazing combo starter. Falling front hits of nair > dtilt > jab > dthrow > nair, falling nair > dtilt > utilt, etc. It's also an amazing kill setup. Falling front hits of nair > elevator/usmash (true combo), dtilt > falling nair > elevator/usmash (setup), dthrow > falling nair > elevator/usmash (setup), and on middle weight characters and heavier, first hit of nair (front or back) > usmash, and on extremely heavy characters, first hit of nair (front or back) > elevator.

It's also super good for edgeguarding. It lasts for a long time so you can just jump off stage, nair, and be like lol bye recovery :^)

I'm gonna give nair a 4/5. It's really useful and its only problem is the landing lag

I agree with everything but "its only problem is the landing lag."

Its range is a big problem for me. It will trade with most aerials, and because each hit only does 2/1%, it's bad at air to air combat.

I'd give it a 3.5/5.

I love me some nair, henny. Probably my most used move with any combo when I'm not looking to Ko. I love short hopping and using it, then a full jump and using it. It's good if your opponent expects you to rely on smashes and then you pull this out. I missed its reliability in the back as well but the powerful front makes up for it as that's the most common usage, typically. One of her best moves imo. The sparkles don't hurt.

4/5

I'm always surprised at how well it actually does in certain air combat situations. Like, sometimes I've jumped up and at someone and entirely interrupt an opponent with a rising NAir (lol see: Phil's Zelda Social highlight vid.) One perk of course is that this move (As pathetic as it sounds.) has some of the best coverage for her in the air.

While still long, the landing lag buff is appreciated.

It's a very reliable multi-hit move, unless you're trying to make it drop like FF and moving away from them.

Damage is...kind of poor. I STILL don't understand what would be wrong with both sides of the move doing 2%... I remember getting excited when I realized front-side NAir did 2% per hit, only to discover that was because the back did 1% now.

NAir is obviously the favorite BnB Dthrow followup (Even though UAir is significantly more rewarding now, especially with the damage swap.) it IS guaranteed on more characters for a better low percent range, (13%/17%) then you switch over to UAir for mid percent. (21%)

Overall I like it, it is an alright move. 3.5/5

Nair... Here we go...
One of Zelda's safer aerial options due to the fact that it hits on both sides, and lasts long enough to catch people in it. You actually can't fall out of it, I'm pretty sure (in Melee you could iirc) which is great, because vanilla Zelda in this game had you falling out of everything. Does decent damage in the front now, meh in the back. Extra sparkly.

You can actually guard the ledge with this move. If anyone is in distance, and recovering low or level with the stage, you:
Jump off > fast fall > Nair them as you FF > they get dragged down and knocked back at the end > jump back and teleport to safety > they may not be able to recover, or get KO'd
It's not the safest tactic since you can go down too far sometimes, but it's good to mixup her offstage game. If a character has already used their second jump, the chances of them not being able to make it are usually greatly increased, so try to do it after they jump. If they're recovering high, I mean, you just jump up and hit them with it. No explanation needed. To follow up to it depends on the angle at which they get knocked back, but it's pretty straight forward.

I'll rate 3/5. Can combo into Usmash and Farore's, the landing lag isn't too bad, FF Nair is useful on and offstage, can be comboed into itself at the right percents (or people are really bad at air dodging), and it's one of her safer and easier to land aerials.

I'm actually gonna agree with the guy above me, it really is quite possibly her best move in regards to her entire moveset.
5/5 for Nair, it's one of her safest options, decent for air combat, wonderful combo starter, setup and more

The 1% damage being on the back of the attack now is still disappointing and quite honestly stupid but I'm okay with it since there is more up front which actually makes it better to use now without having your back to the enemy.
It's actually pretty fun to edge guard with too, I think T Swizzle said something about edge guarding with it against people that try to come back horizontally.
Oh and the decreased end lag on it is highly appreciated. Now decrease the end lag on LKs plz lol

Ahem, 5/5 I think it is truly the best thing in her arsenal when compared to everything else since it's just so balanced and offers tons of utility and isn't "nichey"

hmmmmmmM its a combo extender, leads to kills, great for air to air combat. yaaaaay 4.5/5

Spoiler: Lightning Kicks, 6/27-6/30

Average score of 2.5

When the opponent is airborne and in position for a trade use your damned LK. It will win every trade of the game

Sorry this is a little late oops. Doing fair and bair now.

Ok so here's some little aesthetic thing I just noticed for the first time:
View attachment 58847
When you connect a sweetspotted Lightning Kick there's rainbow holo effects. Like Zelda pls I didn't know it was even possible for your moves to be more fabulous than they already are :^)

Anyways, LKs are decent...if you hit with the sweetspot. Otherwse the sourspot is unsafe on hit (??? why Sakurai???) and they have a ton of landing lag. I'll occasionally use them from a full hop if I'm absolutely positive an aerial approach is coming and that the sweetspot will hit so it'll either trade or hit before the opponent's move comes out, and if it sourspots I can just land or jump away. Dthrow > nair > fair/bair is kinda a thing, dtilt > fair works at mid percents and kills near ledges, bair can be used to stage spike and OOS if you think it'll sweetspot

Edit: Thought 2 was a bit low, so I'll change it to 2.5/5

4/5 there is nothing wrong with them outside of the AC window which is a little hard to get

the new easier sweetspot on the kicks makes it easier to kick short characters on the ground than it was in brawl, this is a great plus as now everyone can be hit someway on the ground. Bair OoS is one of the best punishes in the game despite being complicated to do, that's one thing the lack of shield stun actually helps in is more kick opportunities OoS. like you can Fair Ryu if you block Fsmash and Ganon if you block Dsmash from in front and a couple other things. despite the landing lag kicking peoples shields is sometimes a way to land if someones running at you while your trying to land because it gives shield pushback which is sometimes safeish like against Luigi. jab>Fair works near the ledge sometimes at certain percents, as does ledge trump Bair. a solid 20% every perfect hit is great.

sadly those fub kicks hurt when you get those although i think most people not mashing buttons get a little pause if they just get fub kicked and don't always immediately retaliate. 3/5

Would still rather have stronger sourspots and slightly weaker sweetspots to compensate. Or just stronger sourspots.

The sourspot issue is a big reason why this character has so many problems approaching. As if low mobility and insane landing lag wasn't enough, not landing these kicks is a free punish.

I'd also like to point out that on some characters, like Luigi, if you Lightning Kick them at 0%, it's possible for them to punish you in the lag. I whined about this two and a half months ago, and @Antonykun reminded me recently by liking that post >_>

Of course, these are still Zelda's trademark abilities and by far some of the best reward per frame attacks in the game if you land them. Avoiding overuse of these and being able to reliably land them is staple to winning on this character... which is really a large reason why she's so bad.

2/5

I missed Nair but the new combo mechanics are nice: 4/5.

LKs really aren't that good. The sweet spots aren't powerful enough to make up for the cumbersomeness of landing it. They also are very unsafe and require a good setup or read. I miss Brawl's LKs.
2/5.

The fact that we have a tiny frame window on these and are outranged by the majority of fairs/bairs in the game make it incredibly difficult to use these effectively. The only good things that Lkicks provide are 20% on sweetspot, shield pushback so they are safe-ish on shield, fast so they are good punishes, and souspotted fairs/bairs act like jab resets so it's possible for us to elevator people under those circumstances.

Bad things: Ending lag, landing lag, 4% on sourspot which hits a million times more often than sweetspot, can't beat most aerials/outspaced by most aerials, whiffing them means gigantic punishes. Not good moves.

2.5/5

Fun sometimes to punish sloppy multi-hit moves/ jabs. Maybe it was just the character but I find myself getting shield grabbed by Bowser on sweetspot which is a bit annoying.
I feel like without the pause frame this move would be better on shield since it essentially prompts a reaction, like WFT's smash attack whistle.
Everything else i can think of has been said. 2.5/5

Kicks are bad now and that makes me sad since they were one of the things that initially drew me to the character in Melee.

I give them a 1.5/5 because LAG

I'll give the Lagning Kicks 1.5/5.

They just don't have enough reward for the risk.

They're unsafe on hit (sour-spot), and they're not totally safe if shielded (sweet-spot). They're painfully punishable when whiffed because their end lag and landing lag are atrocious.

They're near useless in air to air combat because they're often out-ranged by other aerials and the precision required to land them makes it too hard to space/out-space most other aerials. If they trade on sweet-spot, it's great, but more likely, they'll trade on sour-spot and that's terrible. We'll only deal 4% while most likely taking much more and go flying farther and possibly die.

Really these are only good for hard reads and punishes. B-air OoS is a great option when an opponent uses a punishable attack at close range. However, anything that pushes Zelda back when shielded often gets her out of range to use it.

Zelda's poor mobility also makes it difficult to punish things if the opponent is not right next to her, so even if they whiff a punishable move, we often can't kick them fast enough.

B-air is better for punishing OoS, but f-air is easier to land off reads. If we predict precisely where they'll end up, we can intercept with a f-air, but it's not practical and can't be relied upon. Sometimes we can land a f-air from d-tilt, but most characters can escape it at most percents, and almost definitely at KO percents.

I cannot believe they actually reduced the BKB of both kicks and made them drastically more risky to use. The only good things are that the sweet-spot is slightly easier to land and they're quick for their level of power. But with how unsafe they are, it's actually harder to use them effectively than when we had the Brawl sweet-spot.

They're some of the worst aerials in the game, period.

The lag kicks are good for a few things:

1. Harddd punishes
2. Air trades, this is surprisingly true I've just recently experienced it firsthand
3. Beat-for-the-gods reads, like you have to read realll hard but landing a sweet LK is the most fulfilling thing ever so it's worth it

I wish I could say it was good for breaking shields but no, not really. It deals a nice chunk of shield damage but unless you are BREAKING their shield with it, you'll be left wide open and they can actually punish you which is some bullshnitzel.
The lag on these kicks literally makes them unusable, and the sourspots are useless.
The sweet spot is also useless should they do anything but get hit by the move directly.
no I'm srs, if you don't hit them, you fall on the ground for like a full second, WTF

But I digress, they are an amazing trade tool truly, and fun for hard punishes. I'm still scared to use them in reads but like I said, if you get a good read off down throw into a sweet LK you've just done something amazing and epic.

I'm gonna say 2/5 but it could be so much better if they had greatly reduced lag OR if they had more balanced sour spots and if the sweet spot broke shields instantly, I think that would be fair because it's stupid when you hit someone's shield and they punish you while you faceplant.

The gods have spoken, 2 / 5

Just as a handy tip

If you do a SH/falling LK

Fast Fall it immediately

You're gonna be stuck in lag so you might as well get to it quicker.

---

You can shield drop into LK on the lower platforms of BF/Lylat/DL to punish someone attacking you from below if their attack is quite laggy

LK are great, you can do dthrow to bair or fair on some characters like marth or ddd. but only if they di away from you or dont di at all. if they di towards you, they will be sent right above you and you can safely uair them.

btw you must double jump to get it connect.

The Kicks, one of Zelda's most situational, yet rewarding moves (sometimes). Zelda's Fair/Bair in this game is... Meh. I miss Melee's landing lag with them, I loved abusing them in every single match. Now, there's a reason why we call them the "Lagning Kicks". Anyways, this move goes like this:

• You sweetspot your opponent, you're (in most cases) safe, do a lot of damage, and possibly get a KO. Good stuff, man.

Or

• You sourspot your opponent, do basically no damage/knockback, almost immediately get punished (except in a few situations), blah blah blah, bad stuff happens.

It's never something you necessarily want to ledge guard with unless you're a god at spacing with Zelda's horrible mobility and they're coming right at you. In several situations, it can knock an opponent out of their attack (like Sheik's Bouncing Fish ), or if both attacks collide and you're both at high percentages, chances are they'll be making their way to the blast line before you do if you sweetspot it. If you manage to land this offstage (which is very possible in the right situations), you'll more than likely have yourself a KO at lower percentages than normal.

I don't like to use this move at all really (in this game) unless I just know that it's going to hit. It's a very read-based move, and if you just throw it out like any other attack, you're going to be in some pain very soon. It's a high risk, high reward move that you'd use based on a read. I'll rate it a 2.5/5. Way too laggy and unsafe, but very satisfying when you do land it on an opponent not shielding.

As promised, I shall outline the various differences between FAir and BAir during their discussion period!

The new animations are so good imo, even if it comes with the lengthy end lag.

Data tables:

Spoiler: FORWARD AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|GID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|9|1F|0|0|7|20.0|361|24|0|95|1.9|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1.5|×0|no|0|
Sour-spot 1|9|5F|1|0|5|4.0|361|5|0|80|4|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 2|9|5F|2|0|3|4.0|361|5|0|80|4.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|
Sour-spot 3|9|5F|3|0|7|4.0|361|5|0|96|5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|

Spoiler: BACK AERIAL

hit-box|hit-frame|duration|ID|GID|bone|damage|angle|BKB|WKB|KBG|size|z/y/x|element|hit-lag|SDI|clank?|shield damage|notes
Sweet-spot|6|1F|0|0|11|20.0|361|28|0|96|1.9|z=0, y=0, x=0|magic|×1.5|×0|no|0|only hits opposite the direction Zelda's facing
Sour-spot 1|6|4F|1|0|9|4.0|361|5|0|80|4|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|only hits opposite the direction Zelda's facing
Sour-spot 2|6|4F|2|0|3|4.0|361|5|0|80|4.5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|only hits opposite the direction Zelda's facing
Sour-spot 3|6|4F|3|0|11|4.0|361|5|0|96|5|z=0, y=0, x=0|none|×1|×1|yes|0|only hits opposite the direction Zelda's facing

Now, to focus on each specific difference:

Hit-frame : FAir (F9) / BAir (F6)
Like in every other iteration, Zelda's BAir hits 3 frames faster than her FAir. While 3F is still only 3/60 of a second, 3 frames can be very noticable for hit-frame differences in smash. Aiming with FAir and BAir are very different things, you often need to be closer to the ground in most cases when using BAir. BAir's earlier hit is also more advantageous in aerial combat. While niether is very good in aerial combat. BAir's quick hit can make it easier to get the sweet-spot out when you're finally close enough. It also gives it easier retaliation factor under the rare circumstance you can use it to retaliate against a weak hit.

Hit (Sour-spot) duration : FAir (5F) / BAir (4F)
Probably something far less noticed is that since Brawl, FAir's sour-spot lasts 1 frame longer than BAir's. In the grand scheme of things that's pretty insignificant, but...It's there! :D

FAFs and end lag : FAir (FAF: 53, end lag total: 40F) / BAir (FAF: 53, end lag total: 44F)
So, another interesting thing that's brand new to SSB4 is that FAir and BAir actually have the same FAF (First actionable frame) but since FAir hits later and lasts a little longer, this means that BAir actually has longer end lag than FAir. I guess the idea was to tradeoff the earlier hit-frame for a few more frames of end lag. The difference isn't very big, and since their FAFs are the same now it won't feel like too much of a difference.

Auto-cancelled landing windows, and landing lag : FAir (AC: 1-3, 50>, landing lag: 23F) / BAir (AC: 1-2, 52>, landing lag: 25F)
So, once again a small but odd design choice that I consider the tradeoff for the stronger sweet-spot (See: KB stats.) where, while both FAir and BAir have rather bad AC windows and longer landing lag, BAir's AC is almost non-existant, and it has 2F more landing lag upon non-AC'd landing. You may feel it a little in gameplay, and once again combined with FAir hitting later/longer, then BAir has notably worse frame data there.

Bone numbers : FAir (7/5/3/7) / BAir (11/9/3/11)
This very pretty much only noticed when looking at the numbers, and has NO effect on gameplay. But I list it anyways.

Sweet-spot KB stats : FAir (24/95) / BAir (28/96)
As more people might know by now since I bring it up a lot, BAir's sweets-spot is slightly stronger than FAir's. I really don't know where Sakurai originally got the idea in Brawl to mkae this a thing, but it is. So going for BAir will reap you a better reward, even if it does have more lag overall.

Facing restriction : FAir (n/a) / BAir (Only hits the direction opposite to Zelda.)
This is another new to SSB4 and unique to BAir trait. When you hit with any hit-box on BAir, it will ONLY, hit backwards relative to Zelda, In contrast to FAir, which, if you hit with the inner most hit-box from the wrong side, will send them backwards relative to Zelda, but it will send forward under regular circumstances. The difference doesn't have a big effect on gameplay. I don't know why they only applied a direction restriction to BAir, tbh. Maybe it only fit well in Sakurai's opinion with the BAir animation.

That outlines all of the data differences between FAir and BAir! The differences between the two really end up balancing the two in a way. I'd say BAir is just a little better than FAir, since it KOs roughly 4% earlier, can hit closer to the ground, as well multiple BAir "techs", such as SH AD BAir, and ledge trump BAir (And Dthrow reads being easier and better with BAir.) and the tradeoff is that since in most cases you'd probably be using it and landing lagging anyways you'll only have 2 more frames of end lag, which is pretty small.

Overall I'd rate them a 2.25/5 they are undoubtedly flawed but really powerful (like, kind of fraudulently sometimes.) and fab and awesome! <3

I like using the Lightning Kicks, but sometimes it sourspots. The sweetspot, is, however, a great KO move. I'd rate it 4/5 ish.

Imo they're two of her best moves if you practice with them, I only get punished when they're perfect sheilded, if they shield I always hit the sweet spot for the push back, and when they run in for their punish as I'm in lag I have just enough time to neutral b and punish their attempt to punish because of that push back, if no shield the it's the straight on LK in the face, I also don't find them hard to use in air, even without the sweet spot I find that the sour spots are very gimpy to opponents in air, I've killed many foxs, Falcons, marios, marths, etc just with gimpy sour spots, this move requires practice to make it viable for us, I personally don't find it hard to use even on short characters such as G&W or Kirby, but because of the need to be so precise (which I have no problem with) and the upsetting (but manageable) end lag I'll give em a 3/5

Surprised nobody mentioned yet but they can serve as a scary anti-aerial in a few match-ups (for example for Jigglypuff or Peach). If you kick their approaches once or twice it will force them to be more careful.

The move is still awful though. It's impossible to train yourself to consistently hit sweetspots, they're way too hard to connect. This means you're stuck with an aerial that does 4%, no knockback and is unsafe on both hit and shield (even if you sweetspot them you're unsafe on shield...why?). 1.5/5

Some of my thoughts:

- IMO they're best used after a Dtilt (if they airdodge they're really in the exact perfect spot) and Dthrow (once again, airdodge).

- Haven't seen this mentioned; spotdodge punishes. I get A LOT of kicks off from those. They hit your shield and you know they'll spotdodge? Short hop kick. This is seriously good.

- If you land a kick while landing and KO your opponent at 80%, they'll respect your landings a lot more. Trust me. The fear is real.

2.75/5
They're not good aerials for obvious reasons, but they can quickly turn a losing match into a winning one. Instill the threat of the kick into your opponents!

2.25/5

The sweetspots don't make up for the plethora of issues these moves have. I dearly miss the range of Melee kicks.

I'm literally adding +0.25 for the cosmetic effects of landing one. It's more satisfying than Rest/Judgment 9, I swear.

LKs are both a threat and a punish. Aerial zonig like jigg and D3 ones are destroyed by LKs.
The range is bigger than the animation, around marcina fair, and they are fast.
The point is this move is like a college classe which count as 50% of your grade and is tough. If you suceed in it you have your year. If you fail no summer holidays for you. About the end/land lag, don't use this putain de move unless it will land with the sweetspot.
To me zelda's gameplan should revolve more around landing LK and less around waitin in shield to elevator dumb people.

Spoiler: Uair, 7/1-7/4

Average score of 2.4

Dthrow>Uair does 21% and starts comboing from around the 30s to kill %.

Utilt (back hit) > Uair does 22% but it only works at mid-low%.

The timing is strict though, so you might accidentally do a JC Usmash (HATE IT WHEN THIS HAPPENS).

Dtilt > uair isn't a true combo but it works most of the time at kill percents

A perfectly timed landing Uair can combo into itself on ZSS at 47%

#metaprogression

U-air is really bad.

It's slow, has a very short-lived hit-box, and has bad end lag and landing lag (though the latter was reduced a little bit in the last patch). If you miss (say they air dodge), you're left wide-open to a counter-attack by most characters.

It has good range with a good disjoint, does a fairly hefty 15% and can KO at some-what early percents. However, its damage output and KB are not enough to justify its really terrible start & end lag. Because it's slow and requires a hard-read and precise timing to land in most air situations, it's difficult to KO with.

We can combo into it from d-throw, but it can be DI'd at most percents and is easy to escape at KO percents. Sometimes we can combo into it from a d-tilt at KO percents, but that also relies on poor DI -- not too hard to land, but if the opponent is familiar with Zelda, don't rely on it.

We can let go of the ledge and use it through some stages to land a surprise KO, but again, if they're familiar with Zelda it's unlikely we'll land it that way.

It's similar to the LKs in that it's difficult to reliably land against opponents of equal skill, and its risks often out-weigh its reward.

I'll be frank: this move sucks, and it's one of her worst moves - as well as one of the worst aerials in the game.

1.5/5.

the best time for Uair is ledge drop Uairs because it reaches further than people think lol.

honestly that's the only time i really land Uairs other than when people DI Dthrow upwards which is like a free Uair. kind of like Ging said the cons tend to outweigh the pros of the move having a nice disjoint and nice damage. the disjoint is great if you

2/5
(+0.25 for "FingerBang")

The horizontal reach is deceptively better than the explosion graphic suggests. The vertical reach is deceptively worse. Sometimes you can still score a KO if they don't DI far enough.

Ledge drop to Uair only works like once per decent player :^(. It's not likely to kill at good percents either because Sakurai nerfed this move for no reason.

He put any left over killing power into Farore's Wind. Balanced!

I dunno though. Even when people DI wrong out of D-throw they always seem to dodge anyways unless they're Kirby (for whatever reason). Clearly I'm just garbo at grab follow ups that aren't Easy Bake

Making it work similar to Rosie's U-air and having it linger would actually make the end lag make sense.

2/5

I've done this several times with Link's Dthrow>Uair; I know what you mean.


On topic:
The fact that Zelda has some reliable ways to land Uair ups its worth. It isn't great but has uses. 2.5/5
I know this sounds cliche but I miss Brawl's Uair.

3.5

Strong, good range, ledge drops, has set ups into it, its pretty

I give it a 3/5, 2.75/5 the least, it's not as powerful as used to be but it's can be utilized. it'll be a 4/5 if she didn't have so much lag tied with it. Just point and be done with it no need to be graceful when finger banging your opponents.

This is the one time I'll let people off for say "I miss Brawl's something" because its ridiculous power in that game was hilariously fun. I personally feel it wouldn't have been too strong coupled with Dthrow in this game, and I'll bet there is no way Sakurai nerfed it with Dthrow UAir in mind. Until the landing lag reduction this move was only nerfed from Brawl.

Something I do appreciate is that since the hit-box stays static (Does not move with Zelda) you can make its range seem incredibly large by FF or move to a side, even if its duration is kind of too short to effectively use this idea.

Overall I would say this is her 'worst' aerial, it doesn't have much opportunity and not a ton of reward (Aside Dthrow UAir) 2/5 at least it not HAS one true use in Dthrow/Uthrow UAir.

All I want to say as an example of this move being mis-balanced was G&W's UAir. Look at it. I'm certain its second hit KOs better than our UAir, with nearly the same horizontal hit-box range, quicker to set up if you consider the first hit, it even does 1% more damage wtf. Zelda's UAir could use the Usmash patcheT treatment where it re-becomes one of the most powerful UAirs like Usmash for Usmashes. It would (Like Usmash) stiill have multiple shortcomings to keep it fair and balanced.

Thid move can be lead into, but it has a lot of landing and ending lag, along with a hitbox that cant really hit low opponents whatsoever, its decent for killing, and has good range, but yea its not all that great.
2.5 at most I guess

Uair, the one aerial you can't say out loud without sounding stupid. I personally think that this move is very situational, and really only is useful by reads and ledge shenanigans. What makes this move unique is that the hitbox is completely detached from Zelda and doesn't travel with her. Tbh that makes it harder to use in many situations (IMO) but this is Zelda we're talking about. She'll always be our favorite mess of a princess in Smash.

For ledge guarding, you can literally guard the ledge by going beneath it and using the attack so that the explosion covers the ledge. If they don't see it coming, and they're at a high enough percent, you could get a KO. Another use for Uair in this situation is letting them recover to the ledge if you notice a pattern of them usually going for a jump afterwards. You could actually bait this by throwing out a Phantom at the right time (beware the endlag of course) which will most likely cause them to jump (or roll) past it, giving you an opportunity to punish.

I give it a... 2.5/5. It's one of her least used aerials (tied with Bair/Fair) because it's so easy to miss if you mess up. I'd rate it higher if it was like it was in Brawl, but it still gets the job done of netting you a KO past the early 100's (which most Uairs don't do at all).

It's an uair that functions as an uair and not an all-purpose aerial like on so many characters.

There isn't really much else to say about it that hasn't been covered. It is slow and laggy but disjointed and powerful. It has its problems, but I don't think uair is so crucial yet so crippling to Zelda as... say... fair/bair.

I will actually give it a 3/5 just because it does everything you want it to do and is our only non-sweetspot, hard killing aerial.

have great timing though as it can outreach alot of Dairs and body drops, almost makes me feel like Link. 2/5

Spoiler: Dair, 7/5-7/8

Average score of 4.1

Ok so dair...dair is one of the best spikes in the game and Zelda has a very good recovery so you can use it offstage a lot. Even if you don't sweetspot it, Maxy and I discovered that the sourspot to a footstool is pretty much guaranteed so it'll gimp a lot of characters that way. Sweetspot dair also leads into kill setups on the ground. FF Dair > elevator (20-40%, with rage, weight dependent), Dair > fair/bair (60-90%), and Dair > uair (90-130%). At the ledge, dtilt to dair can also work if the opponent doesn't airdodge or you read the airdodge

4/5

Dair is amazing

Albeit slow (comes out on frame 14)

It has p generous hitboxes (like you can just throw it out & it'll probably hit them eventually)
Really quite powerful even if you get the sourspot
But most of all

#10FRAMES

Dair paired with Zelda's recovery is fantastic. The disjoint is good, Zelda doesn't have to worry about not being able to recover afterwards and even the sour spot is effective. The only Dair I'd rather have is Ganon's. 5/5.

I remember being very surprised when Aerodrome had said the first time that the sweet-spot's size was nearly doubled from Brawl.

DAir is definitely not fast, but for the rewards it can give, it's actually decently fast. Thinking of the sweet-spot, 14 frames isn't horrible. Other similarly powerful meteors are usually frame 16-18 bar some rare outliers.

Also yes that sour-spot has surprisingly long duration. Especially if sour-spot to footstool really is some not too hard to do thing.

It has lots of fun followups off of grounded sweetspot, like DAir to Usmash, UAir and Up B, which are all quite rewarding if landed and they made them easier to do by reducing ha DAir landing lag like, it didn't dawn on me immediately when I heard about the lag reduction, but these followups are way easier/actually doable now with only (Still long, but less) 18F of landing lag.

ALSO IT CAN SHAC. EVEN IF IT'S A 1 FRAME WINDOW.

Its power on the sweet-spot is so good too. It can gimp at very nice percents, and Zeldas shouldn't be afraid to go deep since lolrecovery.

I'd argue it might be better than NAir personally. 4.5/5

Without a doubt her most and probably only lololol improved normal from Brawl.

Oh yea

FH Dair sweetspots on every character taller than & including BJr. (Not counting Luigi)

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-1927792

Meaning if you get the sweetspot at mid-high %s & they fail to tech, you can go for a Nair, LK, Uair, FW or another Dair & they are true combos (Uair can kill btw)

tbh I'm surprised how optimistic you all are but it's nice to see. I didn't think anyone would rate it higher than a three but eh HSB jank ban customs

Oh btw recoveries you can't dair:
, (I swear that parasol beats everything wth), maybe and ? Idk if dair beats either up b.

Fub Dair can trade with Peach if you are really close to her when she starts upB and you can Dair Ike at apex its just sketchy cause lol floating sword. Zamus i'm pretty sure you can trade out and you can get bowser while his UpB is in motion but that's risky timing.

Dair is like her only move i have very few complaints about. the fub hitbox is huge and actually gives Zelda a bit of landing defense that alot of characters don't have because of its size. its not full proof but it works against many characters Uairs where you at least trade with them and at higher percents it pushes them to the ground and gives Zelda a bit of space. brawl peach habits actually come in handy here cause Zelda Dair stops alot of aggression trying to get under her dress with the right timing. the only thing that would make it perfect is if it autocancelled automatically. then Zelda could really jump around like a janky brawl ganon sparklefooting around the stage. 5/5

what move section are we moving onto next? throws?

Do any of you use dair in the neutral to bait a response? If I'm against someone really aggressive I will since dair autocancels and if they try to punish it they can't, and if they try to punish it too fast they'll get hit since the hitbox lasts like forever

I do. It helps a lot against people that always roll behind you. The combos from landing it are just a little bonus.

Dair is indeed the best. I agree with all said above. Take this move and raise hell off stage.
Though its hard to use it fully Offensive, but counter-offensive seems the way with most of Zelda. I like dair over my opponents to get away from the ledge or advance anywhere that involves them in my way. The sour spot really ****s them up keeps them grounded as i land behind them and if they were sour stomped ,mashing? thats a decent grab punish.

Anyways don't listen to me i suck but i heard you all mention FF Dair?
Someone mentioned this too but i feel it went overlooked...

FF Dair>FaroresWind.

It's definitely Zelda's earliest true combo- kill move, but all characters die at different percentages. -_-" Thus the list in spoiler.

Spoiler

||||||Dair-FF->Farores Wind> KO (sort of)
((Kill percentage on left. Characters on right obvi.))

-(51%MegaMan...)
-(50% King DDD, _Cpt Falcon_)
-(55%DK)
-(49%Wario)
-(48%Bowser jr, Ike)
-(46%diddy kong,Ganondorf,_Lucario_)
-(45%Bowser,Link, Duck Hunt, ROB)
-(44% Shulk,Smash-[24%] __Sheild__[150%-167%)
-(43%Lil Mac, Charizard,Dr.Mario,Lucina,Marth)
-(42%Mario,Pit)
-(41% Robin,Dark Pit)
-(40% PacMan, Sonic)
-(39%Samus,ZSS,MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Villager)
-(37%Sheik, PikaFreak, Greninja, Ness)
-(36%Toon Link, WiiFitTrainer)
-(35%Zelda,Palutena, Olimar)
-(40%yoshi,)
-(33%Rosalina,kirby,,Luigi,Peach)
-32% Kirby , Mewtwo)
-(29%GW)
-(25% Jigglypuff ):

It's risky as hell, techable, DIable and kinda hard to execute. But ive landed it a number of times and pissed people off xD
I mean it kills the whole Cast at less than 50% so it seems worth a shot in my eyes. I made this list a long time ago in 1.0.5. -.6 days and I was a little delusioned on the mind of live opponents because i would test on Cpus.....*facePalm* This move would be treasured if Zelda had a Sheild Breaker...but im looking for ways gosh darn it!

Love Dair. Dair is so... Yes. Dair you usually can't go wrong with. The end lag isn't much of a big deal (as you all have explained). Because I'm kinda late on this I won't say much since you've pretty much covered everything. Dair on grounded opponents can follow up into so many things (my favorite is Dair > Bair although it rarely happens). The move is quick (enough), the sweetspot isn't hard to land, and it's not horribly laggy. Even a sourspotted Dair offstage can help because of the different things you can do after it. I'll give it a 4/5. Solid move.

(Also her animation during this move is priceless.)

I swear, Smashboards doesn't want me to see this thread. I haven't been getting any updates on it at all which is why I missed uair and most of dair.

Ok, really quick: uair. I dthrow>uair all the damn time and it's one of our more reliable kill "combos." Basically, unless a floaty jumps, this is more or less guaranteed even at kill percents with proper timing. Other than that, I'll sometimes use it if I have enough room when I'm recovering. If the opponent is standing just a tad too close to the ledge without shielding, I'll catch them with uair. Doesn't work a hell of a lot but it keeps them on their toes. 3/5.

As for dair, this move is obviously in top 2 for Zelda's best aerials next to nair sine it AC's, spikes, sourspot spikes, does good damage, can be a combo starter or a combo finisher. The fact that it lingers for so long makes it invaluable offstage and has even helped me land on stage a few times. 3.5/5

I find Dair to be safe to use in most match ups the sourspot off the stage is useful as well. On stage it great to build percent combos from it requires very specific timing on average to big charterers it's easy to get the timing but on shorter ones a missed combo can and will be punished. 3/5

Dair is one of the best, faster, and strongest meteor smashes.
It can be used to combo on grounded opponents that can lead to a LK(so satisfying to here 2 of those......sparkle kick sounds?)
So good offstage too, not very laggy and you can go very low for a kill too.
It and her Nair autocancel in a short hop, awesome I give this a 4/5

I only recently saw this thread so I at least wanna do Ftilt
It's pretty good, it has nice range and good kill power(in some cases, better then Fsmash) It can be angled which is nice and space against your opponents.
The angle it sends them is cool too and it doesn't have much lag anyways.
the blind spot can be annoying but I like it nonetheless.
3.5/5 maybe even 4/5

What moves haven't we gone over? my iPod is so slow I don't wanna check individual pages, it does suck I couldn't discuss some of her moves too
@ S.F.L.R_9 after discussing the rest of her moves can we do it again but compare them to the rest of the roster? you know, to make it fair for some who missed this thread?

Dair's sweetspot is twice as large as fair and bair's sweetspot. The move last for 10 Frames! Fair has an auto cancel window from short hop and can true combo into farore's wind. Great to trade off stage sourspots with and offensive recovery and can follow up with footstool. Great for covering offensive pressure from below. Only thing that could make it bad us that it's the only option Zelda has to be offensive to opponents below her.
If any other character had this move or anything similar, they would be broken.
4/5

Spoiler: Grab, Pummel, and Fthrow, 7/9-7/12

Grab: 2.5
Pummel: 2.5
Fthrow: 2.8

Standing Grab 10-11 FAF 38
Dash Grab 11-12 47
Pivot Grab 11-12 44

Frame 10 or 11 isn't good for a non-tether grab but Zelda does have good grab range. Her pummel also seems mediocre but they serve their purposes.
Fthrow does a nice 12% damage. It gets overshadowed but Zelda's combo throws despite being a pretty good throw. I only use it at high %s throwing the opponent off the edge.

Thanks again to Aerodrome for the frame data.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda

Grab doesn't have very good frame data but you can get a lot of stuff off of it. 3/5

At low percents you can do fthrow to Farore's for more damage than dthrow > nair but it's nowhere near guaranteed and it's pretty risky. Other than that fthrow isn't good for much besides getting your opponent off stage. It is her most damaging throw tho. 2.5/5

edit: OH forgot pummel. It's slow but it does decent damage, you can probably get 2 or three at the most at high percents. It pretty much does what it's designed for. 2/5

So like.... Three in one, eh? Hmm...


Grab: Decent range actually. I think this is the best her grab has ever been, much better than whatever it used to be, and is also actually better than some other characters'. 3/5 I suppose.

Pummel: Meh, I never bother to use it because it's so slow, and the opponent can easily escape if you pummel them more than once. Mehhhh. It's not even amusing like Samus'. At least the damage is alright for a single pummel (which is all you'll get). 2/5.

Fthrow: Woo, free 12%, you send someone away a decent distance, wooo. It does what it needs to do, won't really KO, but if you need to send someone off the stage, it gets the job done. That's its main use. 3/5 because the damage is great for a throw and has decent knockback.

Dash grab frame are actually legit. Just barely slower than other dash grab. Pivot grab is normal, it's barely slower than the fastest PG. It means zelda is supposed to run away and pivot grab. Given the range it's really smooth.
Her throws deals nice damage, Fthrow is really good to that. Pummel sucks, give me kirrby's ones.


Actually the pummels does 3% and is quite fast. Around 100% you can get 2 of them and throw even on a Lvl 9 cpu. It means even on a furious mashing machine marine you can pummel.
On a standard player pummel+fthrow is the safest way to secure damages above 50-60% when dthrow thing stop working

About fthrow
Fthrow deals 12%, and has quite low angle. At low percent you can tech chase with farore. At higher (80% more or less) you can Fthrow farore 2 (not a true combo but will usually surprise) but try to not suicide.

Zelda's grabs were not adequately balanced between range and lag imo. I guess their reward is pretty decent, but that aside, her's are definitely some of the worst standalone as a grab grabs in the game. We'll still work with them obvs since our throw rewards were one of the only other things we got when transitioning to Smash 4.

Zelda's pummel DO do on the high side of damage at 3% (Some characters can only do 1% >_>) but it's one of the slowest pummels out there. Well, at least it isn't fast, more like middle speed to slightly slower, but you get the point. You can only get 2 at most at high percents, and you might even grab release anyways, which would be very sad lol.

Fthrow is actually not a bad throw, it just doesn't do anything particularly special (Like combo or KO) compared to her other three throws. It does great damage for a throw, 12% isn't something to scoff at in this game and is on the top end for a throw. It also does sufficient KB at mid % to get someone off the stage, which Zelda likes.

All of her throws but Dthrow actually use special speed modifiers based on the target's weight, so it'll execute Fthow slower the heavier the opponent is, and faster the lighter they are. It's not anything of real significance though, aside maybe giving more/less time to correctly vector it. It'll probably be vectored as desired either way; it takes nearly 30 frames even on lighter characters to execute, so w/e.

Grabs : 2.5/5 (As a standalone, since throws are standalone)
Pummel : 2.25/5 (Maybe use after conditioning your opponent to expect immediate throws?)
Fthrow : 2.75/5 (Decent enough throw)

Her grab is cool, it's slightly slower the. others apparently? I don't see much of a problem with it anyways, got nice range especially when pivot
3.5/5
Her pummel is decent as well, slower then others, but it's understandable for being 3%
can get in a few before a throw, racking up nice damage.
4/5
Fthrow isn't too shabby, the knockback is quite good for getting people offstage and for its great damage(I am not lying when I say I have done 15% with it a couple times against a Link)
It can KO if at the very edge, not reliable but is an option nonetheless.
It's among the most damaging throws and I like it
4/5
......anyone else get the feeling people are still comparing her moves and stuff to other characters to a certain extent?

Frame data on her grabs isn't great especially considering some characters can whiff grabs and still be safe against us whereas we get annihilated if we whiff a grab. Decent range though. I still miss being able to RCPG though since it gave Zelda ridiculous range on her PG which meant she actually had a really good tool in neutral. 2.5/5

I never pummel. Bad habit I guess but I'm usually too concerned about getting the throw I want rather than racking up damage beforehand. Still, her pummel is ok doing 3% in one hit. I'd also give it a 2.5/5

Fthrow does great damage but is definitely overshadowed by other throws. Dthrow can get us significantly more damage most of the time and even uthrow can do that. Bthrow kills at high percents. Meanwhile, fthrow just does 12% alone with no followups and no kill potential. 2/5.

So yea

Grab is ehh (It's bad when a frame 10 grab is one of your fastest OoS options ;_

Pummel is ehh

Fthrow is ehh (though free 13% when fresh is p gud tbf & it becomes decent at high % when all our other throws can no longer combo or something)

This reminds me that I forgot to continue the Uthrow -> Uair project

Ehh

CBA ATM

Odd smashboards seems to have glitched on me, i thought i double posted. good thing i copied it beforehand lol


IIRC in Brawl Zelda's Dash grab range was on DDD levels for his standing grab range which was huge in Brawl and Zelda's pivot grab had better reach than her current "must be kissing on the run" pivot grab range since Sakurai nerfed it lol.

Her grab itself is bad, only because you can act out of shield faster in this game is Zelda's grab even usable here. its still far to slow for the mixed rewards you can get from grabbing someone. Mac can Fsmash her if she whiffs a grab on him as can a few other characters and Zelda doesn't move faster enough to harass people like other characters can with their grabs. Oh and she also grabs high which means her grab is easy to duck for short people (kirby) and sometimes does a wii fit whiff on other not as short but short people like Luigi randomly 1/5

pummel is faster than it used to be which is nice, its on Jiggly lvls when it comes to pummels, nice damage per hit but less hits per grab 3/5

Fthrow is nice, gets people off stage, i only wished it tossed them lower to make the edeguards 3/5

I like never use Fthrow, even when it might not be a bad choice. This extends to other characters out of habit from using Zelda T_T

Fthrow isn't even bad when you look at other characters so this makes me optimistic about Zelda's throws.
Too bad our grab is garbage, with lag everywhere. I miss our pivot range SO badly.

Grab: 1.75/5 lol (a lot better if you take our throws into account)
Pummel: 2/5 Does what it's designed to with mediocrity.
Fthrow: 2.5/5 12% is 12% and it puts them in what would hopefully be a disadvantaged position.

Oh and
Dair: 4.25/5 Much love for it. You know it's great when even the fub is useful. Lagning Kicks pale in comparison so hard.

I knew the balloons had god tier pummels but wowS

http://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

In other words, Zelda's pummel is ok at best. Almost middle of the road. 2/5.

Zelda can do 1 to 2 pummel if the opponent is over 40%. 1 is guarented, but most player are not furious masher so 2 is possible. Combined to fthrow it does enough damage to reach 70% in 2 grab, where we can adopt a more defensive strategy. Compared to kirby who does more pummel and can do little more damage, but need way more damage to kill, it's really good.

Spoiler: Bthrow, 7/13-7/16

Average score of 3.1

Tomorrow is the last day for fthrow anyway so I think we should just wait until that day especially considering some of the regular contributors here haven't posted about it yet

Onto Back throw! Well back throw...sends your opponent behind you It does 11% which is p good, and with lots of rage it can kill near the ledge at 120-150%. It also sets up for edgeguards so that's fun. 3/5

Bthrow. Well, it at least does a little more KB than Fthrow like with Fthrow there isn't really much to say. Decent damage for a throw, can put people offstage for edge guards sometimes, isn't good at KOing, hardly KOs at a useful percent at the edge. It KOs abouT... 20% earlier than the average non-KO throw.

That's not really good.

I guess you could KO someone at the edge 120%? When you have 120% as well, LOL. Good vector completely deletes it's KO capability.

Mind you, you have to manage to land a grab...AT THE EDGE.


Fun fact: Bthrow releases 3 frames faster than Fthrow,

...but has the same duration, AKA 3 more frames of endlag. The comparison of Fthrow/Bthrow differences really isn't too different to FAir/BAir comparisons if you think about it.

2.75/5

There really isn't much to say about Bthrow at all. Use it if you have already staled Fthrow &/or throwing someone offstage/getting the rage kill at high %s close to the ledge.

Probably should've grouped this with Fthrow & Pummel IMO :/

BThrow makes me sad because on the rare opportunity that I kill with it, that really just means I failed to land Zelda's plethora of earlier kill options.

Going to mirror the red sis above
2.75/5

This throw should get an Usmash type buff.

it kills and its pretty 4/5

Bthrow has the same thing going on as Fthrow: it's not a bad throw but doesn't combo and therefor is overshadowed by D/Uthrow. Bthrow can be good at the ledge to get the opponent offstage.

I actually like bthrow especially when getting up from the ledge, I can sometimes surprise the opponent by grabbing them immediately if they think I'm gonna getup attack or ledge hop thereby making them sit in shield. Because Zelda tends to have a difficult time landing her kill moves on opponents, especially highly mobile ones, opponents can get up to 120% if they play smart which means I can sometimes kill them with a bthrow which is significantly less stressful than trying to land an usmash or elevator on an opponent that's properly spacing and highly mobile. Obviously, Zelda doesn't want the opponent to get up to these kinds of percents since she can kill so much earlier but it's a reliable tool in bad situations.

3/5

Bthrow could use some help, but it's better than Fthrow. It's got decent base knockback, but won't even kill until 140% and later at the ledge (perhaps in rage). You can totally kill lighter characters with it (if you haven't already), but don't rely on it with the heavies. Like Fthrow, it'll probably send the opponent offstage (but farther) serving as its main purpose. It's got decent damage, and is a lot better than (and on par with) some of the other throws in the game. I'll say 3/5.

Actually It'll kill earlier than you'll think. 110-130%. If you know that your opponent is doing a raw get-up, just run through them and Bthrow, they won't expect it and won't DI in time.

It takes 30 frames to execute Bthrow. That's more time to react than getting hit by all the hits of Fsmash. Anyone who misses that DI has made a very incompetent mistake, and numbers of non-correct DI should never be considered for a throw that slow to throw.

Horizontal vectoring also hurts this move quite a bit.

Spoiler: Uthrow, 7/17-7/21

Average score of 2.4

Combos at very low percents but not on all characters. Doesn't kill, doesn't combo at mid-high percents, does 11% just like bthrow and fthrow does more so... I'm actually not a fan personally.

2/5

the only thing i do with Uthrow now is i stole auntie @Rion tactic of Uthrow>follow opponent>Uthrow again. you'd be surprised how many people(myself) included actually fall for this when they land lol. especially if people are approaching higher percents.

Uthrow>Faroes sometimes works if people don't expect it. it is a nice way to put people above Zelda to attempt an air juggle or Uair/Usmash/Uthrow bait. the low percent combos are also a nice thing cause it gives variance off the norm. i've started to love Uthrow.

3/5

I love uthrow. At low percents on fast fallers it has combos that do more damage than dthrow combos, at mid percents it can combo into uair, and near really low ceilings (like On Halberd or Town & City's platforms) you can get kills from uthrow uair at ~50%. 3/5

Uthrow has identical frame data to Fthrow. Just a little random thing.

Considering it can actually get a follow on fatties and FFers at low low percent, it does incredible damage like wow 11% AND a followup.

I never thought of that Uthrow > wait > Uthrow, that's actually neat @ JigglyZelda003

Based Auntie @Rion. Eaux how you just found such nice things. ily.

Uthrow has nice niche properties tbh, does good damage, low % combos, AND it actually KOs about as well as Bthrow if both are correctly vectored from center stage. That said Uthrow is nowhere near a kill throw, lol.

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF IT WAS LOL.

Anyways, I'd rate it a 3.25/5. Does nice things and is a good Uthrow imo.

a good damaging combo throw

also something really unknown is that uthrow to usmash true combos... only on fox at 0%

a free 27% on fox woop

3.5/5

Uthrow to Usmash works on four characters (Fox 0-20%, Sheik 1-7%, Falcon 11-12% & Greninja 6-17% IIRC with no Rage) & Uthrow to Utilt works on those 4 characters plus Falco & Roy (can't remember the percents tho). Uthrow to Uair works on some of the cast (will post %s on known characters when I get home). I remember it not working on Rosalina, R.O.B. & Jiggz though

I like Uthrow at really low % since it can get them to a good "combo range" faster than Dthrow (what I mean is that Nair won't send them into tumble after Dthrow, but it can with Uthrow, which makes landing a kick after much easier). It's also nice at mid % for a little mixup with Uthrow>Uair. It's good for positioning too, especially since we have a deadly Usmash again.

Too bad we can't chaingrab with it!
3/5

i managed uthrow to uair few times but i think the opponents were just bad

It's guaranteed on some characters but you have to buffer both the jump & Uair for it to work.

---

Recorded %s

Uthrow -> Usmash (27% combo)

Sheik: 1-7%
Fox: 0-20% (15-20% does 24% instead)
Falcon: 11-12%
Greninja: 6-17%

Uthrow -> Utilt (18%)

Sheik: 1-21%
Fox: 0-20%
Falcon: 11-24%
Greninja: 6-23%
Falco: 5-18%
Roy: 6-21%

Uthrow -> Uair (26%) - Incomplete

Sheik: 50-66%
Fox: 46-67%
Falcon: 63-86%, 83-89% (the top %s for both ranges require DI, true combo at 87% can kill on FD with no DI after Uair)*
Greninja: 55-57%
Falco: 51-63%
D3: 78-93% (higher %s require DI)*
LM: 51-77%, 77-80% requires DJ*
Ganon: 70-73%, 74-76 requires DI & DJ (very difficult to do though so it may not be worth it)*
Mewtwo: 39-53%, 54-61% requires DJ*
ZSS: 50-66%
Shulk: 62-71%*
MK: 46-59%, 60-67% requires DJ (higher %s require DI)*
Zelda: 47-50%*

Jiggly: N/A
Rosalina: N/A
R.O.B.: N/A

All provided no rage of course lol

Bthrow is very similar to Fthrow, decent knockback and good for getting opponents offstage, it deals slightly less damage, but slightly more knockback, though it could still use more, but its not the worst Kill-throw and at least it is one.
I give it a 4/5 just like Fthrow.

Uthrow, I rarely use this, I mean Uthrow to Usmash is possible on FFs, but thats about it for what you can get from it, it does have lackluster combo ability overall and doesnt KO, but does a decent 11% and(dont know if this is true, but I will test it) it may kill earlier then Bthrow on the top of FD platforms right? I mean its knockback is decent still and I would imagine that being the case.
Meh...2.5/5

FD platforms? Do you mean BF platforms? If so, I believe it does kill earlier than bthrow though I personally prefer dthrow>uair on most characters.

Uthrow is good for... Uhh... Not much. The only time I use this is in kill percentages to predict DI and follow up with Uair or a Farore's reappearance. It's best to use underneath platforms for obvious reasons. It does decent damage, and won't really KO by itself. I'll be honest, I haven't really experimented with this throw much at all, but only because all her other throws are (in my opinion) better. It does have some easy low percent follow ups, but it's still not like it'll help you that much. I'll rate 2/5. Not horrible, but not that great by any means, you're better off using a different throw in most situations.

I find Up throw is the second best of her throw's at some percents at least when online can combo into Up B as I did here http://imgur.com/gallery/roKlpSD Could just be a tactic for online games

It only works online. There's not enough hitstun for it to perfect combo into FW. It's just online being laggy and the players being bad. This has never worked against tournament caliber players and will get you super punished.

I really like Up Throw on fast fallers
It puts you in the perfect position to read an airdodge and punish with a Bair,Semi-Charge Up Smash,Up Air and so on
And well of course it true combos to Up Air on mid-high percents but the timing is very strict.
However this is all mindgames as most follow ups are not guaranteed.
Overall, Up Throw is a decent throw for Zelda, is not the worst throw but is not the best throw.

Spoiler: Dthrow, 7/22-7/25

Average score of 3.5

Now let's talk about Zelda stepping on people

Dthrow is definitely her best throw. You can combo off of it with nair, possibly kill off of it with uair, and if they airdodge after it, punish hard with a sweetspot LK or falling nair > whatever. 3.75/5

Dthrow is good...

Until people know how to DI correctly...

Then it becomes Tr4sh

---

Possible ****

- Nair
- Uair (HOO HAH)
- Dair (requires you to bait the air dodge)
- LK (again bait the airdodge)

But Zelda is too slow nor does she has the tools to really catch the opponent in the air. At best it gives Zelda more control of the stage but Fthrow & Bthrow do that as well with both doing about double the damage

I'm only giving dthrow a 3/5 cause as long as people always hold away her combo options are limited to Nair until a certain percent and reading their action for follow ups. At like 60% most characters holding away can act before Zelda can get there and all she can do is try to read an action for a following action.

early combo /KO potential is nice, but that's about it. Oh and taking Macs KO punch away lol

Dthrow is obviously our best throw but it's no Diddy throw. Since it's a combo throw, it's damage is tiny unless we follow it up and we can't always follow it up because, like others have noted, proper DI can nullify any chance at followups. Furthermore, our most reliable followup, nair, doesn't get as much damage output since the most recent patch since turning around can often take just long enough for the opponent to get away. I do love dthrow>uair kills though. It's guaranteed on certain characters at certain percents I suspect but I've not tested this. Most people figure out that they ought to jump out of dthrow to avoid getting punished for airdodging now so baiting airdodges doesn't happen anymore and it makes me sad.

3/5

I thought opinions of this move would be better...it's one of her best moves, IMO. It can combo at any reasonable %, and it can combo into Uair for good damage and KB. It sets up for kicks and falling Nairs, too. Baiting an airdodge into a kick is one of the best feelings ever.

However our options become more limited once the opponent learns to DI. Usually you can always get at least a Nair off of it, unless you just completely misread their DI. I've seen some Zeldas land Bairs on a DIing opponent, since they're in a good position for a kick.

Overall I give it a 4/5. Huge % range where you can combo, sets up for our strongest moves, and it puts them in a bad spot.

I'd like to see the damage buffed to maybe...8% but that would mess up the knockback (unless the devs change that too).

since the patch, dthrow to nair does about the same damage as single fthrow, so unless you want to go for some crazy followups like dthrow to nair to bair then just throw dem forward.

on most characters, dthrow to uair is always guaranteed, even if they di the throw. as long as they dont air dodge. if they try to jump, they will get caught by the uair because it has such a big hitbox, so they have to airdodge it, which can be punished ^.^

I'd like to add that you can turn around and Nair, to get the strong part of it and still combo. On some characters you can get them to "fall" into the stronger side if you keep moving left (assuming you were facing right when you did the throw).

One thing I like about the weaker side of Nair is that it's slightly easier to follow up on since they don't fly as far.

most of the time you turn around, you still hit them with the weak part, trust me.

or it's just me, using the pro controller, it has more sensitive stick than gc controller


bs they only switched the damage, the back still has higher knockback

How much damage a move does affects how much knockback it does

Combos and finger banging

4.5/5

that doesnt change anything the end hits for front part and back part both deal 3% and the back hit has more scaling


my stick so sensitive when i want to just turn around zelda moves a little so when i jump i hit the back part, also depends on character. yeah pro controller is ****

I'm gonna have to call out BS on this. Where's the evidence saying the back hit has better knockback? I don't think there was ever documented a different hitbox for the back (which is required for there to have varying % or knockback values).

According to the Fairy Fountain, the KB and KBG for the front and back are exactly the same.

The increased damage from the front is likely what causes the KB to be greater (since they're taking more damage before the final hit).

From the based Zelda Momma:
Hopefully this quotes right...

["BJN39"]It isn't the front or back that has less KB, but the inner hitboxes on the final hit of Zelda NAir have 20 less KBG which makes them kill later. Of course the damage done has an effect on KB, but only a very small on if the difference is only 4% at the time of the final hit.

Also I think the inner weaker hits are out prioritized by the stronger ones so they're really hard to land.

I BROKE IT[/quote]

Holy hex a lot of posts.

I've been summoned.

Basically what Rickster is saying is that firstly, when you do a turn NAir out of Dthrow the front hit, that does more damage out prioritizes the weaker multihits as of 1.0.8, and so if the oppoent gets caught in it, it will prioritize the higher damage hits. It is also possible to move far enough to hit with the higher damage multihits without turning around, if the opponent's hurt-boxes go to the other side of Zelda, but it's unreliable.

Along with this, yes, the amount of damage the target has will cause them to be knocked further, but in this case the damage total difference before the final hit will only be 4%, and both the front and back final hits use identical KB stats, so the difference is very small.

There ARE hitboxes on NAir's final hit that do less KB, but they cannot be landed under the Dthrow to NAir circumstance, they have to be specially aimed for since they're out-prioritized by the higher KB final hits. Even then at Dthorw to NAir percent range they hardly knock away different amounts.

It's like, BKB/KBG 40/140 for the weaker ones, and 40/160 for the prioritized edge hits. The KBG will only make a difference at higher percents and of course, it's really too hard to hit with the inner ones anyways.

I would also like to rate Dthrow 3.75/5 imo her best throw. Has combos at a decent percent range, really pretty too lol.

This is a decent throw, I mean...yea it does half the damage her other throws do, but its still a combo throw nonetheless.
Nair is what you will mainly get out of it(and Uair) I never actually baited AD with it before to get the LKs...maybe I should try that.

Anyways on lighter characters and if they know how to DI, it really is difficult to actually get the Nair off, I noticed.
But on some Heavy FF and such, its possible to get 2 Nairs, and if your lucky, end it with a LK.
Its a combo throw that we are lucky to have, and I respect it.
3.5/5 for me.

Down Throw is Zelda's go to throw really, it combos into Nair. That is if they don't DI out of it. It's an okay throw, but it's easy for opponents to DI away. You could possibly kill off of it with u-air, and if they airdodge after it, punish hard with a sweetspot LK or falling N-air. I can almost never hit with U-air anyways.

3/5 Could be better.

Dthrow's good; I can't add anything that hasn't been said before.
Looking at Zelda's throw game as a whole, would you guys recommend F/Bthrow (position dependent) at high %s when Dthrow can be easily DIed?

Dthrow is good at almost any %, really. Rage is what messes this move up. If you have a lot of Rage, any throw but Dthrow will do.

Down throw is nice but I feel like this could be better 3/5.

Spoiler: Nayru's Love, 7/26-8/1

Average score of 3.7

Nayru's is cool

The invincibility at the start of the move has saved my *** a good number of times.

Probably her best GTFO move she has

But it's laggy as all hell (31 frames)

Love Jump is a decent mixup every now & again

IDK what else to say about it =/

(Because I'm late)
Dthrow I don't have much faith in. It's an okay throw, and you might get a follow up, but probably not if your opponent is good at switching up DI. You have to really predict what your opponent is going to do for a follow up, putting air dodge timing and DI into it. I also think that Zelda's poor mobility gives her a harder time using it effectively (why she can easily miss her follow up). Not that great, I'd rather go with Fthrow or Bthrow, but I'll need to do more experimenting, perhaps it's just my playstyle that favors the others more. 2/5 for now.

(Because I'm mostly early)
Nayru's. Ooh. Dat lasting hitbox. Goodbye spot dodges. I like this move a lot, it has a lot of different uses. It can be a landing option, alter her momentum midair, it reflects, it does 11% damage IIRC, catches Rolls/Spot Dodges, can be followed up easily, comes out kind of quick (for Zelda), is your basic panic button, hits on both sides... move is just pretty decent. The only thing holding it back is its endlag, but that's forgivable considering its many uses. The intangibility on the startup is also very nice. A lot of times this can be a better alternative to Dsmash. I'll say 4/5 because it's a special that's actually useful. The Phantom and Din's wish they weren't so useless in comparison.

Nayru, AKA panic button

4.5/5

No customs because their ded. Also if we did customs every move would be like 0.00001/65 except like strike and squall

NL is cool, its very fast with intangibility, can reflect, catch rolls/spotdoges, can seriously knock people away from you and such.
I like using this against annoying grab-happy characters/characters with little range in their attacks. It lasts forever, but I wish it didnt have so much ending lag.
Other then that I give it 4/5

It can be baited of course, but its still a nice move overall.

Nayrus I'm giving a 2. It suffices for rolls cause dsmash is bad at that now. Some comboability as well as at times panic button.

problem with Nayrus is it has alot of nice options but nothing is full proof . Its all situation dependant and not an always on guarantee.

I think we should take a moment to run her customs at the end anyway. Customs are still in even though Zelda's are bad.

Nayru's is a good spot dodge punisher and you can use the invulnerability (frames 5-12) like armor frames to beat other moves. It hits through out frames 13-28, reflects 5-43. It's unfortunately very punishable with 32 end lag frames ending frame 60.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Zelda
thanks again to @ KuroganeHammer for the data.

Nayru's has its uses but can't be recklessly thrown out, except on wifi
2.5/5.

Something we can appreciate about Nayru is they actually used the new "re-hit rate" property instead of looping 1F long hitboxes like ha jab and smashes.

The re hit rate hitbox means the hitbox literally is out the entire length of coverage and only disappears for a tiny bit after actually hitting, making it seem REALLY meaty for coverage. Completely beats passive invincibility like dodges. Paletuna's multi hit attacks all use it a and feel meatier.

Overall Nayru 'a ain't bad. Its intangibility at the start is very fraudulent though. Frame 5, so there's still 4 vulnerable frames, If someone already has a hitbox out on you under some conditions it'll lose the trade because the intangibility ends before, or really AS the hitbox appears.

The reflect length is pretty good though, and lasts a little longer visually than one might think. Has pretty much identical range to Dsmash's front hit. On the 3DS the flying Crystals arefraudulently not correctly in line with the hitbox.

I definitely find myself using it. it DOES have a sort of anti-pressure ability if used right. Sometimes Nairo manages to pull it off vs good players, though, it seems like it trades or loses more often. Use sparingly to tell them to mind their aggression.

3.5/5

Nayru's is Zelda's best anti-aggression tool. Against players that are more mindful of their spacing, it's usefulness dissipates a bit because of its endlag and merely manageable range. That said, I still very much enjoy using it as a counter to ledge getup options since, positioned properly, it can cover so many options at once unless the opponent is willing to sit there and wait on the ledge for the move to end which is often the case. I also like using this to catch landing opponents that think they can cover their landing with a hitbox as I use my intangibility frames to ignore it and deal 11% to them instead although I more often shield and punish with dash attack or something. I'll also use it to cover my own landings sometimes like if the opponent airdodges a SH nair and lands with those 22 frames, I'll follow up with a Nayru's Love if I'm not feeling like I'm in the position necessary to land a Lkick instead.

I just used it yesterday during a tournament against a Mewtwo to reflect his shadow ball into his reflector which was reflected again by the same Nayru's Love I used to reflect it initially. It wasn't a fully charged SB though so it didn't kill

I just wish it had its intangibility frames start 2 frames earlier and end when the hitbox starts so we can't get knocked out of it. Furthermore, a bit more range would make this move a 5/5 for me. As of right now, it's somewhere around 3.75/5.

the reflect frames are actually very good on Nayrus. I rarely get faked out on reflect cause the ending few frames give some leeway on reflecting

Nayru's is one of the better moves in the game, fast, good damage, intangible, easily one of the best moves she has.

4/5

Nayrus is good and probably out last the other reflectors. It does what it does and does it good. Really great against spammers whether they be projectile spammer or smash spammer. It has uses outside of reflecting, techs, and deals good damage. 4/5 I feel that we should talk about customs just to share info and opinion even if we don't use. I find passion ok. It's nice using it on the edge and off stage cause you can pull someone's up b away from the edge or just flat out kill them. Sometimes disrupts air approach. I think it has intangible, I remember playing on the ds I was able to avoid attacks but that's way back in November. I find it super fun. 3/5 Reject is a better at avoiding hits than love but oh my gosh I dearly miss the range. As far as I see it, it's Love's nerf form.2/5

Nayrus Love is a good move, I'd rate it 4/5. I feel it's a get off me move and does good damage plus it's a good punish for predicting rolls and spotdoges too and easily one of her best moves. Oh and it's a reflector too

Reflects, hits on both sides, LOVE JUMP LOVE JUMP

5/5

Nayru's is definitely a good move for certain. One of Zelda's few reliable tools.

However due to it's horrendous afterlag, it is considerably bad on shields. Due to it not being able to be held down for perpetual reflection like Fox's reflector as well, it can be baited to knick her in the longish afterlag.

So as an actual reflector, it's not terrible but not something you can willy-nilly toss out whenever you feel like it as it's a hard commitment.

Ironically it performs better as an offensive/counterattack than anything!

4/5

Naryu's Love is one of Zelda's more reliable tools. It's her best special because it has the most useful properties. It can punish rolls, get people off of you, can be used to retreat as well as approach after hitstun, gives Zelda something against projetiles and does good damage. However if there things that needed to be changed I'd give it a buff in speed, while it is faster than Melee and Brawl it has horrible end-lag and doesn't makes Zelda useless against any projectile in which her opponent can follow behind it or be used for different options.

Though honestly I question in intangibility a lot. Sometimes I still get hit despite the intangibility, but then when it comes to other moves it can punish or save me. Idk what's up with that. It's also good against spamming Zelda's who use Dins Fail, as it shields you completely from the move and you take no damage. (Not that you even would fall into Dins Fail.)

I'd say if they give it a buff in speed, decrease the endlag and make it to where Zelda can shield during the duration I feel this would save Zelda from grabs, give her more defensive option against projectiles and get them off at the same time. It's a useful tool against people who run in as well. Basically increasing the defensive properties. I'd give it a 3.5/5. It's Zelda's best special and one of her few reliable moves, but that end-lag needs work. Love Jump is awesome by the way. lol I'm still trying to learn, but I like it nonetheless.

Spoiler: Din's Fire, 8/1-8/5

Average score of 1.8

Din's Fire...umm...yay... Din's is a bad move, there's no denying that, but it has some niche uses. It's fairly good at getting rid of Rosalina's Luma, if someone is far off stage you might as well throw it out, because a tiny chance to hit is better than no chance, and while Little Mac is recovering it can force him into a bad situation where he has to get hit or airdodge and risk falling too low to recover

1/5

Hi

Din's Fire definitely isn't good and has a ton of flaws like being slow to move and activate, easy to dodge and having a pretty specific sweetspot if it does land. Not to mention it screws over her recovery at times since it puts her into a helpless state in the air. However, I've been having a soft spot for it as of late with its utility of covering landings from afar and forcing the opponent to go where you want while edgeguarding. It also has some niches as a projectile that's immune to Villager's Pocket and can pressure Luma in the Rosalina matchup. It gives the longest range out of Zelda's moves as well and pairs decently with Phantom Slash (which is less bad as of version 1.10 yay!). Gliding with it on a short hop or b-reverse can also shift Zelda's momentum a bit, which is pretty cool.

In the end, it's a bad move that Zelda is kind of forced to use at long range, with some niche uses that save it from being terrible.

2/5

So we've reached this point of the move analysis thread... Well, here goes.

Din should be ashamed. It's slow, predictable, punishable, easy to shield, Zelda can't move while channeling it unless she jumps with it which is dangerous because it makes her helpless afterwards, it's cancelled out by so many moves, is easy to beat out with other projectiles. The good news is, it kills Luma.

1/5 always use flare over fire.

I never really thought much of the Phantom changing because I thought Sakurai had this move in mind solely for free for alls. But then of all things it was fixed and buffed.
I can't see why the playtesters and Sakurai would ever think of din's fire as a free for all only move. Its blast radius is not what it was in bra** and one is required to land the sweetspot if they to ko an opponent.
The AC window that was received is greatly appreciated.
It would be nice if they cut the release animation from 40->32 and the hitbox appears 8 frames rather than 16 frames.
Endlag similar to shiek's burst grenade would be fair and do similar to PK freeze since they are both moves with high risk low rewards
1.5/5
It still kills.

I can't wait to see the scores for this move.

I've pretty much given up on trying to hit someone with this move onstage. We all know its problems blah blah.

It's more of a space controller/trapping thing for me now. I usually use it to get someone to airdodge into a bad position offstage, allowing for a Nair/Dair gimp. Using it after a semi high % Dsmash near the ledge can be effective, since se characters have to take the hit, which will probably end up KOing them.

It's also free edgeguarding, just not effective edgeguarding.

If you combine it with the Phantom, you can attempt to keep an enemy away. I do this often if I'm being defensive or waiting for my shield to regenerate.

2/5. Not a good projectile for damage, but it has some niche use in positioning and trapping. It's also a good support move in doubles, and can work well with G&W's Bucket and Ness and Lucas's Magnets.

EDIT: This move also keeps Zelda from being camped out by custom Villager. We shouldn't fear that Villager strategy at all.

EDIT 2: Honestly, looking back at this post, Din's really isn't as bad as we make it out to be. I mean it's definitely NOT good at all, but I feel like we rag on it a bit too much, lol.

Oh god here we go with Dins Fail. Just a terrible move. This move is terribly easy to avoid ( even players who are semi decent at best could avoid this move.) It'll never kill, and it has horrid end-lag with an annoying free fall offstage. (I hate accidentally using this when trying to use Farore's Wind to recover. Though this is a rare thing.) Considering this is Zelda's ranged move that's sad. Now that Phantom got a buff it's pretty much got the edge over Fail.

The only use this move has is baiting someone into a bad dodge to punish with the occasional Dair spikes and it's actually not bad in doubles play either. So I can see something come out of it in doubles play But that's the only use I've seen out of it. Yet for some reason people use this move. Though it is decent against Luma. So points there as well.

Use Dins Flare, it's much faster, can be used to follow up after moves such as Jab. And can give Zelda a better chance against zoners. Dins Fail needs a hit box as it travels, have reduced end lag where Zelda can react afterwards. This way she could follow the moving Dins Fire and it's hit boxes could lead into things. She also needs to be able to move when using it too.

2/5 for me. And that's honestly generous. lol Without being generous I'd give it a 1.5/5

Smash 4 is the only game that could make me miss Brawl's Din's Fire (which is sadly the best official version of the move).

The only time you'll actually use this move is when you accidentally input this instead of Farore's and freefall plummet to your doom in shame and embarrassment.

But seriously, it's got horrible start up and ending lag, a tacked on finicky sweetspot, requires dedicated channeling, induces freefall, predictable hit box, not nearly as maneuverable as PK Thunder for a controllable projectile, requires a mandatory amount of distance travelled to actually kill anything...

Probably the best usage of Din's is in teams, where it could be used to save a teammate if they can't recover to the edge by hitting them with the weak hit. Or doing some silly shenanigans with G&W Bucket / Ness Lucas projectile absorb. Fairly gimmicky usage.

Overall? 1/5 I'd say. It's really just terrible. Almost Samus tier terrible! Almost.

Question for everyone: what range attack type moves are worse than Din's? The only one I can think of is mii gunner's stealth burst, which basically is Din's.

Everything's been said: 1/5.

Din's Fire (4/5)


I think Din's is great move if used sparingly or to force an approach. Against certain match ups, yes, its terrible, (like Sheik), but the move is useful to capitalize on mind games and skill levels.

I normally land with Din's when I'm reading a jump from the ledge, I start Din's and hold up right after. The angle normally forces them to air dodge (obviously) or I have a chance at killing them.

The fact this is an offstage KILL move if you're precise that puts Zelda at NO RISK whatsoever, regardless of it being slow, it pays off with proper use.

I know most of you gurls are gonna hate on Dins and give it -27722399/5 but i'm gonna be @Macchiato and give the move a 3/5.

Instead of looking at Dins fire like the worst projectile ever i like to look at it more like a Checking tool. Dins can tell you alot about what your opponents know about Zelda depending on their reaction to it. do they roll around?do they stand and block? do they charge? attack? seeing their reaction to Dins can tell you how much you might be able to get away with Dins and a few other moves depending on what they do when you use it.


Dins has some positives. its one of the only projectiles that cannot be reflected only absorbed so against characters with reflectors you don't ever really have to fear throwing out a Dins at them and having it come back in your face. only four characters can absorb Dins and even when facing those four, if you bait out the absorption tool they may put themselves in a bad position depending on the situation. certain cheese tactics like Villager tree camping Dins actually can defeat because of how Dins functions. characters lacking a ranged option aren't necessarily forced to approach because of Dins but Dins does reach all the way across most stages and only a few moves can actually reach Zelda from that far away if her opponent wants to stand by and dodge Dins all day. Zelda can get a lead and mindlessly Dins until the clock goes down or they move around. Dins also can kill at around 100% near the ledge so that's an extra bonus.


Dins also walls off a certain section of space for a time which can cause people to either get hit by Dins or die trying to avoid it. Opponent likes to fall down low to recover? send Dins to the space they usually go to, you'd be surprised how many people fall into Dins trying to fastfall past it because they are used to going low and aren't necessarily thinking about where Dins is being aimed if not directly at them. even on stage in certain footsie situations Zelda can pivot a quick Dins at an advancing opponent and net a few percent because they fell into the space.


Zelda can attempt to counter camp to some extent with Dins mixing and matching between Phantom and Jumping Dins to aim low to the ground. it's not a fullproof plan but if facing an opponent with mindless camp tactics Zelda can counter camp somewhat especially on stages with odd layouts and platforms. wavebounce Dins adds to Zelda playing a few jank camp/check tactics because it shoots her back far enough that only the fastest runners can get to her before she can move again. also aiming Dins so you purposefully get hit by a weak projectile while Dins goes to its max distance can help Zelda in trade camping at times.
Dins is still not the best projectile due to its overall slow movement, lack of movement control, freefall inducing, tiny sweetspot effects but thinking of it less like a camping tool we need think of it more as an option to see what Zelda can get away with and set up on her opponents makes Dins OK sometimes in some places.

edit 1.1.0: Fixed

YASSSSSS IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS MOVE

Where do I start?

0/5​

Reasons:

• 40+ frames start up (MINIMUM) to deal 3 to 7% damage (if you hit the sweetspot)
• Channeled move, you are literally stuck in a >1 second commitment as soon as you press Side B
• Absurdly difficult to hit with
• Sourspot doesn't KO until like, 500%
• Sweetspot at max range got nerfed and is Lightning Kick sweetspot levels of size (2.1 vs 1.9)
• Induces freefall to discourage using it as a fantastic no hitbox recovery move
• 30+ frames ending lag

Din's Fire unequivocally is the worst move in the game.

Overall it's not good. 1.5/5 2 at the most for it's uses offstage capabilities otherwise we are stripped of a move for the rest of the game.

An advancing sourspot DF can combo into stuff at mid %s like FW & Usmash so yea 5/5 move

Pretty much it's all been said.

I personally like to KO hitbox design. Feels really good to get a sub 100% KO near the edge. Still kind of weird that they thought it should get a size nerf in 1.0.6. :\

Unless "patch 1.1.2" or so, is like, the "Freefall removal patch" like many patches seem to have balancing "themes" then I don't think we'll ever see no Freefall Din's fire.

I'll score it 1.5/5.

Oh man.....well, here we go.

Dins is....SUPER situational, it could be used along with phantom to be defensive and stuff.
It's possible to land it where people land and hit them.
Can bait airdodges for edgeguards and kill somewhat decently.
Could counter camp villager and can't be reflected back at you...

Now here's the deal with it...
Super laggy
Predictable
Punishable
Hard to kill with
Helplessness when used in midair..

Has a TON of VERY significant flaws with LITTLE, situational uses.

1.5/5

Something I just discovered during a match is that if you hit one of Diddy's bananas with Din's it destroys it so...that's interesting I guess

Now if you weren't letting Diddy give you a free 40% for attempting thaT...

Ooh, couldn't miss the move I've been waiting for. This move is uhh... Rather unconventional. It's a risky thing to just throw out in most situations because of its amazing frame data, it can't be reflected, cancels out projectiles, can bait, has decent range, poor control, will cost you the tournament if you accidentally use it offstage, sweetspot reliant for KO's, requires heavy reads to use effectively... It's a mess really.

The most effective use I've found for it: when you knock an opponent off the ledge at mid percentages, chances are they may jump back onto the stage, or go for the ledge. If they tend to jump back on with their second jump, angle your Din's Fire up just a bit in front of them and detonate it before they jump. Chances are that they'll jump into the sweetspot as the hitbox appears, and congrats. You made the move kind of useful.

Sometimes I'll jump back and Din's towards them if they're getting up from the ledge to keep them away and gain distance. I'll also use it to bait where they land, or to "absorb" it and just fake out. It is a good counter camp option when used with a Phantom in front of you, but Farore's sniping is usually better to do if you time it right. The only time you'll land this move is when your opponent either screws up or is predictable. I think that this move's design had amazing potential, but the execution of it was godawful. Even in a FFA, this move isn't going to help you out much (meanwhile Brawl's was better bc more control and distance). They need to fix the lag, give it a traveling hitbox, increase active frames or blast radius, I don't know, just anything to make it remotely threatening.

Imagine if when you released Din's Fire, there would be 3 subsequent explosions all near each other that last for maybe 2.5 seconds. That would be planting an active hitbox (with probably more range) with 3 chances to sweet spot it, and be an amazing baiting tool. Now imagine a Din's Fire like what we have now, but with a traveling hitbox on the orb that takes them with the flame and into the sweet spot of the explosion. That would be amazing. Now imagine a quicker Din's Fire with Brawl range and PKT1's control, and this one's power. There are so many ways that this move could have been useful and perfectly unbalanced, but that will never happen. Also, my imagination is going a bit crazy thinking about these things (no free fall Din's with less lag is the most unrealistic option ), so I'll stop. Din's customs were almost useful, but still had awful execution.

I typed this all on a tablet (RIP phone), so please excuse any possible mistakes, for the words are smaller and more jumbled on here. 1.99/5, me being nice. Was this move intentionally bad, or...?

Din's Failure: 1.5/5
Absolutely awful but hey, it's a projectile and with new Phantom might actually force approaches from characters without any means to counter camp Zelda. That we have even less endlag with Phantom means there's more time for it to cover us while we use Din's.

Din's is not the worst edgeguarding technique, but many times I feel it's better to just go out there and attempt to kick your foe or use Phantom rather than sending the laggiest and most telegraphed taunt in the game.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's having trouble making this move work. No matter what I do, it is absolutely never useful to me in the slightest except for maybe edgeguarding occasionally and forcing air dodges (and honestly, I'd rather just go out and spike them or use the Phantom). This move needs a serious buff or reworking (possibly more shield damage and higher speed/better control?) for it to be viable in any format. It's far too laggy, the control sucks, and the reward is almost never worth it. Even in FFA and teams, I usually get hit before using this because it leaves Zelda wide open to attack. A few positives are that it can fill Mr. Game and Watch's bucket pretty well, in FFA it can hit opponents while they're focused on someone else, and it can set up some (crappy) landing traps, but that's about it really. It's a good move in theory with some terrible execution. At least it's not as bad as in Melee though, right? A good poke and pressure projectile would help Zelda out immensely, and Din's Fire in its current state is nowhere near what she needs.

1.5/5

Spoiler: Farore's Wind, 8/5-8/10

Average score of 4.1

Farore's Wind! Aka salty 2% kills.

As a recovery, it goes a long distance and in many directions so that's nice, though it has a few vulnerable frames when you're grabbing the ledge. If you know your opponent will try and hit you during that time, you can not sweetspot the ledge and hit them instead.

As an attack, it kills stupidly early, even with good DI. The elevator will net you kills on midweights anywhere from 50-90% depending on DI. With a lot of rage, dtilt > jump cancelled FW is a kill combo if your opponent doesn't know how to DI right but don't count on it against someone good obv. Farore's is also Zelda's fastest OOS option so yea. You can also snipe projectile users with it. The major downsides of it though are the elevator can be DId and punished soooo hard

Ferrari's Wind gets a 3.5/5 :^)

Practice getting the right direction (& preferably on reaction) =3

Also it has one frame vulnerability, both when grabbing the ledge & just using it normally (Zelda reappears with her hurtbox on frame 40 & the hit box comes out on frames 41-42)

I should really post my comment on FW from a while ago

In terms of recovery, it's one of the best recoveries in the game given the distance it travels and the fact that she can't be hit during the majority of it. As an attack, it's ok. Sniping with it is basically no longer a thing since people know its a thing and its 40 frame startup is plenty of time for an opponent to shield on reaction. The elevator is still nice though it's difficult to react to DI in time. Also, an opponent that is intelligently spacing against shield is unlikely to be hit by the ribbon at all.

3.5/5 as well.

REPOST FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE ZELDA SOCIAL


A few things I feel like Zeldas need to do with FW to progress in the meta:


1. Zeldas need to learn the whole "hold down when teleporting to overshoot the ledge" thing. Mixing it up between that, going straight to grabbing the ledge & going for the ledge without grabbing it until after the hitbox will make Zelda really hard to edgeguard (unless you're Peach who can just float Nair for days). You would not believe how many times this is helped me in matches as of late (both in tourneys & in friendlies).

2. Somewhat similar to going to the ledge without grabbing it, learn to recover without aiming for the ledge but falling into it. A lot of Melee Spacie players do this often to mix-up their recovery. Of course our recovery is laggy as all hell but the aim is to be really close to the ledge while being in a spot that slightly delays our time to grab the ledge which could potentially throw off an opponents edgeguard.

Spoiler: what I mean in pic form

A p bad example I know but trying to take a picture is a *****.

You go for the blue arrow then you fall with the yellow arrow from the horizontal momentum from the angle you went for as opposed to always going for the red arrow all the time

Situational of course but anything to make us more slippery offstage is good =3

Also this is potentially the best way to recover against a Peach until they catch onto it. **** EOE I just want to grab the ledge damnit y du yew hav 2 b su mean to me ;_;

3. Learn from the current Melee meta which is becoming more "reaction-based option coverage" (see Plup VS Mango at CEO, Plup was techchasing Mango so hard that set he should've had it, or Leffen vs DruggedFox vs Leffen at EVO where DF got 92% JUST FROM REACTION DTHROWS) & take that approach to our Elevators. When opponents are hit by FW1, they have 3 options: DI Left, No DI & DI Right. But from those three options we have two very similar situations:

Spoiler: one where we hit the opponent point blank with FW1

And

Spoiler: one where we hit opponent from far away

Note that these are just poorly drawn & estimated trajectories.


And FW has a huge ****ing hitbox like look how far away Pika's tail is from Zelda

FW works really weirdly in this game, in order to get the weird angles I think it's to do with with the timing of inputting the / angle (or 22.5 degrees either way or in between the notches of the GCC) as opposed to getting some weird raw angle. The latter you input this weird angle the less horizontal distance you cover. This however makes reacting to the DI away from FW1 far away harder because you will need to input the direction sooner than latter so you might need to get the read with that unless someone makes 40XX & then we can't know for certain.

However all the other angles should be got with reaction, we have 21 frames until we disappear & if the easy angles require 15 frames to react to, that is entirely possible since 15 frames = 0.25 seconds or 1/4th of a second which is roughly the average human reaction time. It's just reacting to the trajectory & inputting this specific angle is the hard part lol

Excellent move, one of the best Up Bs in the game in my opinion due to its versatility and amazing recovery. It stops projectile spam, it can end stocks extremely early, and it can also get Zelda back to neutral quicker than falling most of the time. This move gets worse as an attack the more the opponent knows the matchup and spaces properly, but that's where you have to get more creative. This move is a quick punish to an opponent on the other side of the stage, and an extremely dangerous punish to an opponent right in your face. It's also a great OOS option.

Basically, it's a great move that every opponent should respect due to its high power and applications.

4.5/5

70% kills
Covers landings
Tech Chases
Her best OOS option

4.5/5

The best sniping tool in the game. The only problem I have with this move is the end lag on grounded reappearances, it's rather awful against anyone remotely fast if you were trying to use it as an escape for whatever reason. It's an extremely easy punish if you screw it up, but it makes up for it with its raw killing power. As a recovery move, it's one of the best in the game aside from a few absurd ledges that may throw you off course, or keep your stuck underneath the stage if you're not careful.

My favorite thing to do with this move is to use the momentum of my second jump in the startup. You could use this to snipe from anywhere, or if you're underneath stages with large ledges as a stage spiking tool (works best on Battlefield). If someone tries to use an Uair on me from underneath, sometimes I double jump momentum Farore's to fly above their Uair and reappear where they land, but that's pretty situational. You could also use it to do an Aerielevator (which I have pulled off before surprisingly, so it's possible), or just to hit someone with the startup to secure a safe landing.

Use the salt from your enemy's tears after they get KO'd below 100% along with Paula Deen's butter to enhance the flavor of your popcorn as you continue to watch them cry. Also, watch as they do the same if you miss and get KO'd instead. 4/5.

IMO Farow's is Zelda's best move.
As a recovery it covers great vertical and horizontal distances since it can be aimed. It is hard to gimp due to the disappearing invulnerability and hitboxes as long as you're careful to not start where the opponent can hit you. This makes Zelda's offstage intercepting game better since she can go deep and not have to worry about not returning.

Farow's is one of the few upBs with several functions. It can be Nair/throw(?) comboed into and elevatored for early but risky KOs. It works like little Mac's forwardB to punish projectiles and it can be used as a followup at certain %s with chains like jab>farow's. The versatility is great and if you're unsure you can simply reappear in place or somewhere safe instead of attacking. This beats most upBs and lunging type forwardBs.

You can't throw it out recklessly as it's not safe on shields and Elevator can be DIed. But this applies to most moves in the game.

The only character who would not benefit from having Farow's replace their UpB is Yoshi.
5/5

Ah Farore's Wind I've been meaning to talk about this move. This was once a mediocre recovery move that could almost never save Zelda, but turned into one of the best recoveries in Smash 4. It's her best special by far. It covers great horizontal distances. When canceling it at the ledge it can help Zelda in some situations, mostly gimp with Nair or Dair (don't expect it to beat everyone.) Once you get it consistent it can be a great option. It's also much better at sniping the ledge. I love the new function of it in this same where she gets a quick boost upwards before reappearing again. This helps better with aiming your direction and position and makes Zelda much safer then she ever was before.

Zelda can also go deep without always having to be gimped by so many people who could easily do it before. The Elevator is quite risky and at times I find a hit or miss factor depending on how I'm playing or the opponent. Sometimes if the opponents range is too long it'll be near impossible to use this move. Or if they can space well. Plus using it on stage can punish you horribly if you miss. Despite this it's a satisfying option to say the least. I always get a kick out of killing the opponents with this move.

However. This move can punish rolls if predicting the opponents pattern right. I'd say 4/5 It would be perfect if it wasn't for end-lag or punishable offense if missed.

Spoiler: Phantom Slash, 8/10-8/15

Average score of 3.3

Good thing it got buffed.
OK it's a very unique projectile, that has a wind hitboxes and travels medium distance, but has decent KO power.
It can cover Getup options decently and can surprisingly hit some characters hanging on the ledge and hit them with the 2nd strike
It can be very good for interactingwith some recoveries or attacks and take the hit for you
It does have some lag though, and can be easy to see coming if your quick enough to react.

I have a feeling there is some unknown technique that may very well be possible to do with the new wind hitbox., heard a lot of people say how weird this attack is because of it.

I think it's a decent projectile, could use less lag and it would be perfect
3.5/5

covers landings and great at edgeguarding

4/5

Feel like adding that the phantom doesn't have a windbox. It has a 0% hitbox with really wierd properties instead. I've had my opponents perfect shield it (the 0% hit) and not get pushed back. Sigh.

Anyways, pretty good move, and one of Zelda's better spacing/edgeguarding tools.

4/5

Gurls have you done B reverse Phantom yet? with the new phantom its like the best thing ever, you just fly away and the go flying the other way lol.

Phantom is ok now, it still needs better HP and a few more frames cut off so Zelda can act after it or at least a few seconds cut off the respawn time but now it functions like a move we can sort of count on, like Fsmash lol.

3/5

Yay, it's kind of useful now in some real situations. The new hitbox is definitely a plus, but I still feel like it doesn't stay out long enough/have enough health to really be effective in certain matchups where some characters can take it out in one hit. I also think that it's ever so slightly too laggy (which I wouldn't mind if they buffed it in the ways I mentioned before), but the startup isn't too terrible.

One thing that a lot of people don't do is: When you need to ledge guard against a character that doesn't have an amazing recovery, you can: use it offstage. You can B-Reverse it (always B-Reverse, it's the best way) to hit characters recovering low, or if someone is at the right angle and distance, throw one out after a bit of charging and it should KO. It does take practice, but you're throwing out a move with a huge hitbox compared to most of Zelda's aerials. If you're going to use it onstage, almost always B-Reverse it. Just do it. No Shia intended.

It gimps Ike, but still needs more buffs, 3.75/5.

Before the patch is was a slow, useless move that beat the point of even using it and had barely any use. Now that Phantom Slash has been buffed I can say it's pretty good, the new windbox makes it great for spacing and reading landings. This gives Zelda options away from the opponent so she doesn't get consistently walled onstage. It's also perfect for gimps too. It also is a pretty good kill move.

The only thing I would say is wrong with it is it needs less end lag, Zelda can still be punished afterwards despite this useful buff. I'd say reduce the end-lag and it would be perfect. I'd also loe it to have a little bit more HP, that way it can better protect Zelda from zoners and with reduced end-lag she would be able to act out of it faster to attack or move around. It also is useful for her custom Phantom Strike, which I switch between the two depending on the MU. Though Idk if this effects Phantom Shield Breaker or not.

I'd give it a 3/5. Could use some work, more specifically with the end-lag, but it's overall decent at best.

Phantom is too slow to be used often but its hitbox is huge. I see phantom less like a standard projectile and more like a method of pressuring limited opponents. If the opponent can't use all their options because they're offstage, in the air, etc phantom can really trap them. A charged phantom slash has huge vertical range.
Zelda can use phantom to block an opponent's projectiles then throw Din's or Farow's through it for extra pressure. She can also charge it in the air without worrying about freefalling SDs *coughDin'scough* and that helps space.

3/5 it has uses but can't be spammed or used recklessly.

I believe this move has some significant undiscovered uses. We just need to figure them out!

The two best uses I've found for the Phantom are...

1.) Quickly reset to neutral. Throw out a grounded Phantom and your opponent has to either attack it, power through it, stop, run away, or jump over it. Whatever they decide it gives you a second to catch your breath.

2.) Gimp! We've all seen Phantom gimp Lil Mac, Falcon and Ganon, but anybody can be gimped with it. Follow your opponent off the stage and charge that Phantom. If you can get them with it anywhere off the stage there's a good chance they won't be coming back. Learn your opponent's return patterns and take em out.

I think it has a lot of potential to help cover our own recoveries to the ledge. Tossing a phantom out back onto the stage to cover our return. I haven't been able to do this successfully consistent yet. Still working on it.

3.75/5

before 0.5/5 after 2.5/5 I've been able to edge guard much better and it stops a lot more approaches now. It is ok but zelda can still have games without this move and that is why it is at 2.5 for me. The patch made it much better but in all seriousness zelda doesn't need a move like this I still find the move a redundant. Edge guard B reversing is very helpful and that deserves some praise.

With patch 1.10, Phantom Slash is a pretty solid projectile for Zelda. The hitbox is large and, when charged, it is pretty strong and has nice range. Its uses include edgeguarding, temporarily guarding Zelda, keeping slower fighters away and just providing pressure in general. Like with Din's Fire, aerial b-reverses can shift Zelda's momentum in the air and provide tricky mixups off or above the stage. The protection from Phantom can also allow Zelda to follow up with Din's Fire, horizontal Farore's, or dash attack/grab to put additional pressure on the opponent.

The move has its issues though. While the blindspot may be fixed, Phantom's HP is too low to effectively guard Zelda and the endlag can make Zelda prone to punishment if she's not far away enough from her opponent (this can especially show against quicker characters like Sonic, C. Falcon and Sheik). The hitbox isn't too quick to come out either.

Phantom Slash does its job well enough, but should be used conservatively as it is prone to punishment if it's not used carefully enough.

3/5

Everything's been said about this move already so I'm just gonna give my score and a short description.

3.5/5

A shielding opponent is still a massive threat even with the new hitbox because they can usually punish us. Some more endlag reduction would be wonderful. I love having a good spacing tool now.

It's like we have an entire new move! Pretty safe to throw out for some space, almost risk-free edgeguarding, and kills very early should it hit. Too bad people can still dodge through it.
It's also a very good looking move.

3.25/5 for Phantom
Because I like my decimals.

One of the most interesting applications of Phantom is the separate swings. Most players rarely see Zelda in FG, let alone one that actually uses Phantom (passive)aggressively. Out of forced habit most players are going to see/feel the first hitbox of the dash attack without realizing there's an impending up swing and try to get a perfect shield which just isn't possible in that frame period. The double tap has gotten me more free damage and killing blows than I can count, though this is in the context of FG. On the opposite end, mixing up charge times for single swings after catching the opponent with a double swing tends to cause them to shield/spot dodge longer than necessary, allowing an easy punish if they're close enough for our promdress running Princess to catch.

It's also a GREAT mind game tool. Toss out a phantom when the opponent is off stage and most of them panic into an air dodge. It also seems to deter most players from grabbing the ledge, allowing us to get a Din's Fire out, which then causes them to air dodge into landing on stage leading to more easy grab/fsmash combos that are impossible to stop. It's a great manipulative tool when used right.

As for the breversal, anyone have success in terms of more than a cool gimmick? I rarely find opponents low enough to the stage to breverse my phantom. I'd rather dair 9/10 times if that is the case.

Overall it's hard to rate because of the inconsistency and how it can be used. Sometimes it's easily a 4.5, sometimes it's a 2. I guess I'll leave it at a 3.2? That feels right.

Edit:

I now find myself using Jab in every match with great success. Jab used to be a last resort tool for me if they were just sitting in my face trying to bait out a dodge or shield into grab. I think it'd be good to revisit as well.

Edit2:

Could we actually have a discussion focusing solely on weaknesses and what we come short of? We've hit the generic ups and downs of each ability, but I feel like addressing issues and finding creative ways to fix them would be really constructive. It could be another thread if needed. Discovering things like the nair>FW true combo and JC OOS FW to punish "unpunishable" abilities really helps. I just think it'd be cool to brainstorm idea like that. \o/

 

[BJN39]

Yay this is a thing!

Maybe I'll end up using this post to save any of my move notes in the future since it's close to the OP.


Jab, you say?

Spoiler: JAB lolessay

JAB - 20SassSass says get out, flop

BJN Score : 3/5 (Edited the score because I realized I wanted it a tad higher.)
alright move. Not bad, but I wouldn't score it on the higher end. I'll keep high scores for the best of moves...
Zelda has any good moves? :^)))))))))

First, can we just talk about the visual?

All that sass.

She's like "EW get off me!" she looks so mad when using it. She must be thinking of all ha sweeping nerfs whenever she's jabbing, or any attack really b/c she looks angry during just about every attack. :^)

ANYWAYS,

Her Jab is definitely one of the more unique Jabs in the game IMO. First, it's the slowest to hit Jab in the game at frame 11. But it also has one of the lowest if not the lowest endlag totals for a 'finisher' or final jab part in the game. It only has 8 frames of endlag after the last hit. That's so short it's pretty much safe on block, mostly so if not badly spaced on a shield.

Its damage is ugh poor at 6% in three hits. That low damage is made up mostly by its very low endlag giving you the opportunity to get a small pool of followups from it. Jab > Dash attack is pretty BnB for Jab, and can net you as much as 15% to 18%, assuming all hits of jab connect and you hit with either of the initial hit-boxes. Its use as far as followups ends pretty quick, once they're at around 30-40% (Or 50% on some super fat and heavies.) you can kiss them goodbye. Really Jab's use aside some sort of spacing stuff is in the low percent range for followups.

Alternatively you can mix it up with Jab > Grab, which is very neat for Zelda.

Jab to Grab, I believe, is not an air-tight combo. That means if (Depending on the character.) The run, jump, spot-dodge/roll, or even use a very fast attack they might be able to avoid it, since her dash grab is frame 11. (Meanwhile her Dash attack is frame 6, allowing it to be much more consistently do-able.) The benefit of Jab to Grab is that an opponent may feel the urge to shield after being Jabbed, and thus, >>>grab<<<

Of course from grab we can get even more damage so yummy yummy.

One unintentional issue that can hamper Jab from being a clean and useful Jab is the issue with its multi-hits whiffing. While Sakurai and co put in a tiny biT more work to make it connect better, its hit-boxes still only hit forward even during the multi-hits, sometimes then dropping the target and leaving you with an even measlier 2-4% damage, and severely lowering the chance for a followup. It's just sad, really.

In addition, you need to be wary of crouchers or any animation (Such as certain aerial landing animations.) that make the target crouch low. Jab has almost no range below, and CAN be punished if crouched beneath. More info related to its crouch-dodge-ableness is that its hit-box is very high and borders on having anti-aerial approach uses. That design meshes well with Dtilt being the low hit and it being the high hit.

It's also really a problem that it's so slow to hit. Lots of times an opponent will likely get whatever hit-box out first before your attack, which sort of defeats the purpose of having transcending (No clank) priority, and a legit (well, albiet small.) disjoint. Try and imagine throwing out Ftilt to try and prediction hit an incoming attacker when they're running at you, yeah, you're basically doing that. You probably shouldn't.

Also, its three hits still only come out for one frame each and cover a longer than a normal smack, but still short length of 5 frames. So while it has some walling capabilities, they are just a little fraudulent...lol. It still needs to be restated though that it has transcending priority and a little disjoint; its range is pretty good for a jab still.

Overall I feel like it has some pretty good design balances, low damage and slow startup, but good range and transcending disjoint with basically no endlag giving you followup potential. The only misbalance to this is the small possibility that it won't connect properly. It's pretty unique too. I like that.

Also, I've heard things about Jab > FAir sweet-spot, but it's FAir's sweet-spot we're talking about

WOW, I realize I basically just did a Ffamran essay style post about only Zelda's jab lol. If I think of anything else I want to add here I may just pop it on at the end or something.



I think I'll use this post to keep all of my scores in one place. And...Maybe also my favorite comments on her moveset.

Spoiler: Scores

Jab : 3/5
Down Tilt : 4/5
Forward Tilt : 2/5
Up Tilt : 3.25/5
Dash Attack : 3.5/5
Forward Smash : 4/5
Neutral Aerial : 3.5/5
Lightning Kicks : 2.25/5
Up Aerial : 2/5
Down Aerial : 4.5/5

 

[Gay Ginger]

Okay here we go!

Zelda's jab is one of her best moves, and one of her few good moves.

It has a nice disjoint and good range, and with its transcendent priority, it's great at stopping grounded approaches. It has some uses against aerial approaches as well, but only aerial approaches that are lower to the ground -- not a great anti-air move but passable.

The best part of this move is its very low end lag, which makes it generally very safe to throw out. And safe attacks are something Zelda is sorely missing, so this a must-use move. It's one of our most important spacing tools.

At low-mid percents, it combos into dash attack and her dash grab, which can lead to some damaging combos: jab > dash attack = 18% (assuming all 3 hits from jab connected and we sweet-spotted the DA), and jab > d-throw > n-air can do 13-23% (depending on how we hit with n-air, from the front or the back). We can even combo into jab from d-tilt, so d-tilt > jab > DA or d-tilt > jab > d-throw > n-air are great as well.

Jab not only let's us protect ourselves but can pump out some pretty good damage for a low risk, thanks to its low end lag.

Near the ledge it can even be used to push our opponent off and set-up for a d-air or LK edge-guard - situational but useful!

However, the move is not without its down sides.

First, it's not guaranteed that all 3 hits will connect, so we may deal as low as 2%. And if we only hit once, there often isn't enough hit stun to follow up with DA or her grab. Jab also stops leading into its combos around 40-50% for a lot of characters, so after that we can only hope to deal up to 6%. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for its relatively poor (for a jab) start-up; dealing 2-6% for a frame 11 move is pretty sad considering there are killing smash attacks just as fast if not faster.

The move also doesn't always reliably combo against certain characters even within that percent range: characters with fast n-airs can sometimes interrupt us before we can hit our DA or grab them, and sometimes Captain Falcon can stop us with his jab. Sometimes light and floaty characters can get pushed far enough away that we can't reach them in time with our poor mobility.

Second, the move trades very unfavorably, so if we messed up with spacing we're going to get hurt and likely sent flying while only dealing 2%.

Its benefits definitely out-weight its cons though, so overall I'd rate the move 3.5/5

edit: rating 4 --> 3.5. 4 was a bit too high I think, if we're gonna use halves.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Thanks for contributing everyone. I'm glad we're finally doing some Zelda metagame stuff~

Personally, I think jab is a pretty good move.
Pros:
- A quick punish
- Very little ending lag
- Disjointed
- Transcendent priority
- Good at stopping aggressive grounded approaches
- Combo starter: jab > dthrow > nair does about 21% nearly guaranteed, jab > dthrow > nair > sweetspot fair/bair does 41% (not guaranteed), and jab to dash attack which has already been mentioned.
- Kill setups. Yes, jab is a kill setup. Personally, I think this is a really unexplored part of jab. At high percents (80-100%) it has enough hitstun and sends at a very low angle to the point where your opponent can't airdodge safely before they hit the ground because they'll suffer landing lag and get hit anyway. So, you can do jab to Farore's Wind which is guaranteed if your opponent doesn't tech, which can be kind of hard to do since jab is kind of fast and there isn't much time to tech before Zelda reaches them. At about 80%, you'll have to angle Farore's diagonally down, and at 90% or higher, angle it completely horizontal.

Farore's is going completely horizontal in this gif.

With customs, you can do jab to Din's Flare (angled down) which is much safer and you can also chase them with Flare if they tech. It kills at about 100%. Weirdly enough though, on some characters they can't get hit by the sweetspot while lying down (Ganon is one of the ones I found.) Thanks Sakurai :^)

Cons:
- Not a lot of damage, making it not trade very well
- Slowest jab startup
- Even though it is a quick punish, it still isn't that fast

3.5/5 imo

 

[Princess Toady]

Wow, you guys are stealing the spotlight.

Anyways, I was thinking. Do you think it would be useful to know which approach Zelda's jab can stop. Like, it can stop Falcon's dash attack for example and even his falcon kick if you time it correctly. Perhaps we could test with other characters such as ZSS or MK (who likes to dash attack too).

 

[evmaxy54]

Jab is 5/5 move just for troll factor alone.

Other things
- Well timed Jabs completely wall out all of Falcon's grounded approaches.
- If they miss the tech, Jab into FW2 is a possible outcome via tech chase.
- Perfect Pivot Jab is love & lyfe (& it slides)

Everyone else covered it all already

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Wow, you guys are stealing the spotlight.

Anyways, I was thinking. Do you think it would be useful to know which approach Zelda's jab can stop. Like, it can stop Falcon's dash attack for example and even his falcon kick if you time it correctly. Perhaps we could test with other characters such as ZSS or MK (who likes to dash attack too).

Oh I forgot to respond to this lol sorry

It stops Falcon's dash attack and Falcon Kick as you said, but the only approach options stopped by jab that I can really see being useful are Pac-man's dash attack and Palutena's Superspeed, thought that one might be harder to stop since she goes so fast

 

[Lorde]

Jab is a cool move, especially for Zelda. It's stupidly slow, but the almost nonexistent endlag opens up a lot of options for her. All you gorls have basically covered everything, but I just did some testing with jab and it looks like you can do jab>utilt at extremely low percents (meaning 3% and under on Mario) for a 13% combo. It's not all that useful because they have to be at point blank range and it's very situational, but I thought I'd let you gorls know about it.

This is one of Zelda's best moves, so I'd give it a 3.5 out of 5. The slow start-up really brings it down, though.

 

[Zylach]

I seem to have arrived a tad late to this discussion as basically every facet of this move has been covered. That said, I like this move because it combos into FW2 if the opponent doesn't tech (the timing can be stalled for a moment if your opponent likes to tech everything so we can catch a basic tech. Won't help against tech rolls though). My biggest problem with it is the 11 frame startup though as it's beaten out by every other jab ever. It's why I like dtilt for up-close combat more. Speaking of dtilt, we should talk about that next.

3/5 for jab on my scale.

 

[ZombieBran]

Dtilt is pretty much Zelda's "real" jab.

I give it 3/5 too. I'd go 3.5/5 if I can.

 

[Rizen]

The low end lag and transcendent priority are nice but a frame 11 jab seems incredibly bad. Who's jab is worse than Zelda's (Besides Samus)?

 

[Gay Ginger]

The low end lag and transcendent priority are nice but a frame 11 jab seems incredibly bad. Who's jab is worse than Zelda's (Besides Samus)?

If you compare it to other jabs as a jab, it does poorly.

But I don't think we should do that. It's not really a "jab" in the traditional sense - by that I mean a quick get-off-me move or poke - but rather a good defensive/counter-offensive option to stuff approaches and beat out other moves.

It's not a great move, but it's better than a bunch of other neutral moves or tilts in my opinion. It does what its designed to do rather well. The only thing I really want changed is I wish the 6% were guaranteed, then it would be great.

 

[ZombieBran]

This has all been covered but in summary, the combination of its disjoint and extremely nonexistent endlag makes it our safest move in most situations. The fact that it actually leads to more damage (or even a potential kill!) or is just a useful space maker is amazing for a Zelda move

If the start up were as good as a most other jabs and it reliably linked, I'd probably consider this a 5/5 move.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The low end lag and transcendent priority are nice but a frame 11 jab seems incredibly bad. Who's jab is worse than Zelda's (Besides Samus)?

I'd argue maybe Ganondorf's is worse since it's only slightly faster (frame 8), does 4-10%, has more end lag, and it doesn't combo nor kill.

I agree with Ginger that Zelda's jab is not a jab in the traditional sense and thus we should not be treating it as such. Since it's not really a jab used to quickly relieve pressure like most, it really isn't that bad that it's frame 11 since it's used differently than most jabs.

 

[ZombieBran]

Sometimes I'm not sure if Jab (and Nayru's or Nair?) are actually good moves or I'm just so used to things like Ftilt, Phantom, and Lagning kicks with 500 frames of endlag.

 

[Zylach]

I think, if jab came out on frame 6-8, it would be a really amazing move 5/5. Instead, it's kinda in this middle ground of a get-off-me move and an approach stuffer. It does neither masterfully but fills both roles which a lot of other jabs can't do. That makes it unique and somewhat versatile. At the same time, Zelda's dtilt is her real get-off-me move coming out on frame 5 and ftilt and fsmash have better range, disjoints, damage, etc. making them better at stuffing approaches so it doesn't really fit too well in Zelda's arsenal other than being her only move without tremendous endlag. I guess that means it's a better tool to use when we're not sure what the opponent will do. It's not easy to punish so throwing it out doesn't usually hurt us unlike most of our moveset so it can be used to cover ourselves when we just don't know what the opponent will do. Maybe it'll force a reaction from the opponent that we can punish. Maybe the opponent won't do anything thereby extending the neutral game. No harm no foul I guess.

 

[AncientCode42]

Pretty much all above me have stated the technical uses of this move. I personally agree with all statements. I find Zelda's Jab one of the more overlooked moves in Smash 4, it's good. I would give it a 3.5/5 as well. I use it when I can as Zelda and find it to be one of her best moves.. It does it's job well. Personally I think next debate should be at least Zelda's F-Tilt.. I'm not sure what others think of the move compared to myself. I might have an indifferent opinion about Zelda's F-Tilt. But not for sure.

I think Zelda's Jab has its best use in kill setups and stopping approaches. Her Jab has nonexistent endlag makes it her safest move in most situations. Her jab in this game is much better than it was in Melee and Brawl that's for sure.

Besides her F-Tilt I wanna discuss her U-Tilt as well.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

honestly Zelda's Jab can stop almost any approach that's not Shulk/Peach Fair. The problem is trying to place that 11f hitbox out at the right time. It still can stop Ness Fair and many SH aerials that dont have gigantic reach. Its cool down makes it one of her better midrange baits because most people probably dont realize how fast Zelda can move after jabbing and might run in assuming she is open. I think Aero had a vid of Uthrow>jab working on Bowser or something like that.

I'm gonna give Jab a 3/5 its borderline high risk high reward because of its slow start up and non existent damage half the time (2%) but successful hits or hits on shield do give Zelda many potential follow ups and openings.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Well, one of Zelda's few quick moves (or it's quick to her at least) with decent range. Great follow up out of Dtilt, and can be used to combo into a throw or (the aforementioned) Farore's Wind/Din's Flare. At times, it can be a decent panic button attack if the enemy is standing right in front of you (or approaching you unsafely) and there's nothing else you can really do. It can be punished in if you do miss, but you can still get away with a whiff in certain situations. Much safer than... Almost the rest of her moveset, but don't rely on it.

Since I said I wanted to explore the use of every move into ledge guarding, I'll attempt something here. Not a conventional move for protecting the ledge at all. It can be great if they're recovering about level with the stage but slightly above, given you have a safe opportunity to use it, or they're simply standing right on the ledge. This can be followed up with a well timed aerial offstage, preferably anything except Uair, since they won't be launched above you, and will more than likely have to recover low.

I'll rate 3.75/5, since it has decent uses and followups, and has a quick startup. Obviously this isn't always your go to move, but when you do use it when you're supposed to, it's pretty rewarding.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

What is a setup for $500

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Are we rating this in comparison to other moves or just Zelda's moves?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Are we rating this in comparison to other moves or just Zelda's moves?

Just Zelda's. If we were rating it compared to other character's moves then everything would be a 1/5 lol

 

[Gay Ginger]

Just Zelda's. If we were rating it compared to other character's moves then everything would be a 1/5 lol

Really? I rated the jab in comparison to other characters' moves lol.

And I don't see the point in rating it compared to her own. We've already made a million "tier lists" for her moves lol.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Really? I rated the jab in comparison to other characters' moves lol.

And I don't see the point in rating it compared to her own. We've already made a million "tier lists" for her moves lol.

You think we should compare to other moves? Idk I figured it would be better rating it vs. her own moves so we know which ones are better to use in what situation and all of that. I guess you could compare it to other character's by saying something like "her usmash isn't like Ganon's, so don't use it like that", but I don't think the whole analysis should be based off of someone else's moves

 

[Gay Ginger]

You think we should compare to other moves? Idk I figured it would be better rating it vs. her own moves so we know which ones are better to use in what situation and all of that. I guess you could compare it to other character's by saying something like "her usmash isn't like Ganon's, so don't use it like that", but I don't think the whole analysis should be based off of someone else's moves

I gave the jab a 3.5 because I think it's a slightly above average attack in the context of the game, not Zelda's move-set.

I think that way it's more honest and we can better see how Zelda's tools compare to the rest of the cast, who we will have to fight against.

Basically, ask ourselves: is this a good move for any character to have? Why or why not?

My thinking was:
5/5 = Very effective
4/5 = Great
3/5 = Decent/Average
2/5 = Below average/Poor
1/5 = Terrible/Very ineffective

I don't think we should rate the move against other moves with the same input (Fsmash vs Fsmash) but rather as a move compared to all other moves in the game.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I gave the jab a 3.5 because I think it's a slightly above average attack in the context of the game, not Zelda's move-set.

I think that way it's more honest and we can better see how Zelda's tools compare to the rest of the cast, who we will have to fight against.

Basically, ask ourselves: is this a good move for any character to have? Why or why not?

My thinking was:
5/5 = Very effective
4/5 = Great
3/5 = Decent/Average
2/5 = Below average/Poor
1/5 = Terrible/Very ineffective

I don't think we should rate the move against other moves with the same input (Fsmash vs Fsmash) but rather as a move compared to all other moves in the game.

Ok that sounds like a really good way to analyze it actually, thanks for explaining it. I didn't think of looking at it in the general context of the game, but that's how we should do it from now on

 

[KuroganeHammer]

man i cant wait to rate everything as 2 or 1 out of 5.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Also as for the order of discussion, why don't we just follow the order of moves from the Great Fairy Fountain data thread? That way we don't have to waste time trying to vote on which move to go on to and it's easier to keep track of what we already discussed. The Great Fairy Fountain thread follows a logical order based on the button inputs, and that seems like a good way to keep things organized to me.

Similar to how in the MU discussion thread we're going in order of the character selection screen rather than random discussion.

But whatever you gorls decide is fine and I'll give whatever input I can to every discussion.

 

[Rickster]

So...you gorls pretty much discussed every possible thing about Jab, lol.

I'd like to add that it can sometimes true combo into ftilt or dtilt at 0%. I have no idea what causes it to not hit the opponent out of range. It happened in training mode. But it has maybe a 25% success rate, plus we have much better followups, so it's kinda useless info. I also agree with the "her jab is not actually her jab" thing.

I wonder if I should only use Jab against FG noobs to practice the timing and spacing...

Overall, I say 3/5. Thanks for this thread btw!

P.S. I love the animation for it too @ BJN39

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Also as for the order of discussion, why don't we just follow the order of moves from the Great Fairy Fountain data thread? That way we don't have to waste time trying to vote on which move to go on to and it's easier to keep track of what we already discussed. The Great Fairy Fountain thread follows a logical order based on the button inputs, and that seems like a good way to keep things organized to me.

Similar to how in the MU discussion thread we're going in order of the character selection screen rather than random discussion.

But whatever you gorls decide is fine and I'll give whatever input I can to every discussion.

I was thinking about doing that but I'd rather we just vote on it so it's more of a community thing and people can actually feel excited to talk about a move if the one they voted for gets chosen

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It'll be faster if we just go through it in a set order, but if we vote, then I might get to drag usmash through the mud earlier!

 

[ZombieBran]

Yeah I think, can't say for certain, that we were rating it gamewide. If we were rating it compared to Zelda's moveset, Jab might be like 5/5. Rating inflation would be craaazy.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The sad thing is that even if we were rating compared to Zelda's moveset, usmash would still be a disaster :^)

 

[MOI-ARI]

Jab>ThunderKick though! xO It works i tell you! It works!

nah it barely needs to exist. I haven't recorded much from it, but from what my notes say, it should work as a true combo with Mario, Kirby, Toonlink, And inconsistently with PacMan. starting at %45 and lose its combo potential at around %65. Im not sure if i had tested everyone though, so feel free to test on more people if someone if up to it. I feel it should work on Jigglypuff and Rosa, and the big people. But i dont know...

Everything about jab has been said really. Jab's creative uses are pretty decent, i wish it were at least good. It definitely can be a cumbersome neutralizing wall of sorts to ground moves, but goodluck landing that online consistently. Its a good move to "throw out there" for some space but c'mon. Dtilt.

 

[Rickster]

I'd like to know how effective Jab is at stopping things like Sheik's SH Fair approach. If it can in fact stop her approach, it would be better than shielding since Sheik can FF it and land a Jab before we can do anything OoS (I believe this is true for a lot of characters, actually).

If it works it can be useful in other MUs too, but I feel Sheik is especially significant, hence why I used her for the example.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'd like to know how effective Jab is at stopping things like Sheik's SH Fair approach. If it can in fact stop her approach, it would be better than shielding since Sheik can FF it and land a Jab before we can do anything OoS (I believe this is true for a lot of characters, actually).

If it works it can be useful in other MUs too, but I feel Sheik is especially significant, hence why I used her for the example.

That sounds really interesting...well jab is disjointed (Sheik's fair is not) and it hits kind of high, so it should stop it if we can get it out in time. I'll ask Macchi tomorow if I can play his Sheik and I'll test it out then

edit: Oh wait, I forgot Macchi temporarily quit playing. Well, I'll just test this out in training tomorrow then

 

[JigglyZelda003]

jab has the disjoint I believe for sheik to land in it and stuff her but that's some serious footsies that I wouldn't bother trying unless you know you can do it. I would just run from sheik Fair she tends to sh fair too close to Zelda to space Jab for stuffing it.

 

[r_greening1]

jab has the disjoint I believe for sheik to land in it and stuff her but that's some serious footsies that I wouldn't bother trying unless you know you can do it. I would just run from sheik Fair she tends to sh fair too close to Zelda to space Jab for stuffing it.

Well I do know a lot of Sheik's like to space their F-airs out so it is safe on shield. Do you think maybe that the disjoint can out-range Sheik in that situation? I still don't think it'll be THAT practical because of the startup, but every bit helps.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Tomorrow's the last day for jab discussion, so everyone make sure you get your last thoughts in. We'll start the next move tomorrow night. I'd rather do it then instead of waiting exactly four days and doing it the next day. That way you guys don't have to wait for me to get home that day and let you know what move we're doing~

 

[Zylach]

In that case, last thoughts on my end: A Sheik spacing fairs on you can be dealt with using utilt as well though that's more likely to end in a trade since the disjoint isn't as large as jab. That said, we win that trade. We can also go on the offensive when they think they're safe throwing out quick fairs and answer with a SH nair. Again, likely to trade and we don't win this trade, but it's an option and having options is important. I think timing a fair against Sheik is difficult and usually results in a sourspot fair trading with Sheik's fair which is why I'm not a huge fan of that option. And, if the Sheik is chaining fairs together on you, remember that Nayru's Love intangibility frames start on frame 5 so we can break out of these. Just don't become too predictable. I say all of this because I'd usually choose these options over jab in this kind of situation. Next time I have a chance, I'll try using jab but it's not my first instinct and that's part of why I only rate it a 3/5. These kinds of situations make me miss our old usmash. Those situations, and having an anti-air OoS option, and hitting opponents that are next to me, and killing with it, and never having to worry about whether or not I'll get hit with an aerial attack while using it anyway... Basically, I miss it in all situations.