why isnt melee HUGE?

[HT F8]

That mud/dirt tournament idea is brilliant. TO's need to do work now and make it happen. ^_^

Also, yeah the technical stuff in SSBM is easy to learn, but then again not so easy to apply properly and use in combat. Any idiot can wavedash in practice mode... that doesn't mean you can Thunder's Combo or something.

 

[pockyD]

...because it's like paying top 3, plus 33rd place; why would the people who expect to get 13th-17th not just toss their matches and go for the easy payout?

i think you could learn more from large amounts of friendlies, especially against challenging players, than by beating up on people below your own level and simply reinforcing your bad habits

not saying it's a terrible idea (though paying out the winner of the 'other' bracket IS), but it's not all puppydogs and sunshine like everyone seems to think

 

[Samochan]

...because it's like paying top 3, plus 33rd place; why would the people who expect to get 13th-17th not just toss their matches and go for the easy payout?

i think you could learn more from large amounts of friendlies, especially against challenging players, than by beating up on people below your own level and simply reinforcing your bad habits

not saying it's a terrible idea (though paying out the winner of the 'other' bracket IS), but it's not all puppydogs and sunshine like everyone seems to think

A really small payout is not really out of place, people can toss their matches for other reasons too (like to a friend or something else). Plus the mud tourney bracket winner still needs to really work it out against the others, it's not like it's free money if you just toss it lol. But hey, it works here without any money put into it too and people still get experience out of it either way around. Maybe the winner would not get monetary prize, but other kind of useful item instead? (nothing too expensive, possibly a donation from a smasher or bought beforehand or some free food ticket thingy?).

The only real drawbacks are really the lenght of tourney, availability of TO, some extra work for TO to create bracket and shortage of tv's, but as this type of tournament is not neccesary nor important, TO's can arrange time when the tv's are not occupied by tournament matches and people can play these at their leisure, as long as there is TO available to mark their matches. If worst comes to worst, then this tourney does not need to be held at all. It would be kinda fun suprise to those who thought they could not play any more tourneymatces cause they blew the pools.

 

[Cosmo!]

...because it's like paying top 3, plus 33rd place; why would the people who expect to get 13th-17th not just toss their matches and go for the easy payout?

dont make it for real cash, maybe entry fee back + a couple bucks for 1st

 

[NES n00b]

Bengalz if you are reading: that was unnecessary.

I am waiting for the part where smash people steal tvs. Those are always the best.

Maybe someone will bring up Melee at Evo so Pimp Willy can say all of the evo spectators were bored. That is always a fun story, too.

 

[joeplicate]

melee isn't huge because we don't have a big sponsor

halo? mlg
fighting games? evo
starcraft? korea


Yeah there's a skill gap, deal with it.

realistically though, noobs SHOULDN'T be going into their first tournaments with high expectations
That's what makes noobs, noobs.

If we cater to that, we're enforcing habits that undermine the competitive mindset.

 

[Jihnsius]

This debate was over days ago. Read through the thread.

Imagine it like this:

Take your favorite 2D fighting game.
Take away the one dimensional stage. Add a second dimension: platforms and pits. Also add many different stages that are all different, rather than the single stage with different backgrounds.
Make knockback extremely variable.
Invert the life gauge so you start at 0 and work your way up, increasing knockback as you go.
Now make the goal variable: either kill your opponent in the KO boundaries or take away their ability to recover.

All of those levels would add depth in each of their own way, and since Melee combines all of the aspects, depth expands exponentially.

 

[Drecker]

Pretty much what I saw saying in an easier to understand, better reasoned way.

 

[IShotLazer]

Actually Halo is an extremely deep game that's very well balanced.
I wouldn't go as far as saying either of the two games, SSBM or Halo are better.
Certainly for a specific person you can find out through preferences but at a competitive level both have extremely high levels of gameplay. In Halo there are consistent high placing players, which means these people have a better understanding of the game than their competitors, thus a significant skill gap to secure consistent wins.
In SSBM we see very much the same trend, which is awesome.

Just to add in a little opinion, tech skill should never be the defining part of who is better in a game, it should be the players experience and reactions as well as a players ability to be creative. Tech skill just opens more opportunities up, it shouldn't be crowned professional as any ****** given time can just learn all the techs. It's the creativity, adaptability and responsiveness that makes both Halo and SSBM great games.

I wish SSBM was more popular, but then again MLG won't really be making very much money with such an exclusive game. People are so far in by now that unless months hard dedication are spent you will barely see any improvement against anyone that has been playing for a while.
Halo has an online system which gives people the ability to fight everyone, so a player can jump in and be satisfied rather quickly.
Oh well.

What actually angers me however, is the fighting system is complete GENIUS. It's so open ended, much more open ended than the traditional fighter. Why OTHER games don't use this fighting system is beyond me. I wish Blizzard did console games XD. They need to conquer a fighting game anyway! I enjoy the characters and all about smash, but if a similar game was released with different characters the only real man I would be missing is Captain Falcon.
Still... it doesn't even seem complex to make a game like melee. The physics wasn't mind blowing, the graphics weren't even great. For that matter, it wasn't even fine tuned for hardcore gamers, this type of fighter has SO many opportunities, a company NEEDS to make a killing off of it and make a game similar.

Tl:Dr
Smash is a great game, so is Halo. They both are very competitive in their own genres.
A game like smash should be made.

 

[channlsrfr]

The point is, are you punished for crouching? No, just wave dash out or jump or whatever. The risk/reward is far more skewed than, say game with a counter on block function where you do something like a specific input and use meter to make the other guy gtfo on block. In melee, it's hold down and stop most all 1 hit jump ins. That's retardedly skewed.

Sorry to revive something from several pages ago...

Looking back at your post, I'm not sure if we're talking about just "crouching" here, or crouch-*canceling*. If all you do is crouch, there's no reward to get from it anyway, so it is correct not to entail any risk. And if we're talking about crouch-canceling, I believe that move has the proper balance of risk/reward as well; the outcome of it depends entirely on whether you've correctly predicted your opponent.

If you correctly predict that your opponent will throw out a certain move (say, Marth's forward air), you will be able to punish him with a crouch-cancel. If you're wrong, however, and Marth does a down-air, you will take that hit as well as a few more.

Being right = win; being wrong = lose. That's the way it should be.

 

[joeplicate]

Tl:Dr
Smash is a great game, so is Halo. They both are very competitive in their own genres.
A game like smash should be made.

Like Shonen Jump Ultimate Stars?!


...just being a smartass, really.



Jihnsius, that sounds good, but more **** does not necessarily = depth.
For the purposes of this thread, it seems like "depth" is equivalent to quality, and having a lot of things is neat but it doesn't guarantee a quality game.

(Melee is a great game, but who is to say it's made great by all the things you listed)

 

[rehab]

Sorry to revive something from several pages ago...

Looking back at your post, I'm not sure if we're talking about just "crouching" here, or crouch-*canceling*. If all you do is crouch, there's no reward to get from it anyway, so it is correct not to entail any risk. And if we're talking about crouch-canceling, I believe that move has the proper balance of risk/reward as well; the outcome of it depends entirely on whether you've correctly predicted your opponent.

If you correctly predict that your opponent will throw out a certain move (say, Marth's forward air), you will be able to punish him with a crouch-cancel. If you're wrong, however, and Marth does a down-air, you will take that hit as well as a few more.

Being right = win; being wrong = lose. That's the way it should be.

If you guess incorrectly when crouch-canceling, the risk in doing so is still very much in your favor in a ******** way. You crouch and get hit? Free **** for you. You crouch and he, say, does nothing or misses or whatever? You're crouching, and you're not restricted at all, whereas in other games a "counter" type function like that would have you vulnerable enough to be a big sitting babby duck if you screw it up. Being wrong = lose in this case isn't a big enough deal for what the possible reward and usability of cc'ing as it is should logically push for.

 

[LuVr]

brawl and melee are both good games

 

[MaNg0]

loooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[Dogysamich]

melee isn't huge because we don't have a big sponsor

halo? mlg
fighting games? evo
starcraft? korea

Melee was one of the original games at MLG. (I mean, you DO realize who owns this site, right?) Dropped when they went shooter oriented. It'll probably never get picked up again, especially with brawl being around.

Melee was at evo for one year. Traded next year for Brawl. It's possible to say that it got wrongfully traded out because most people expected Brawl to be Super Melee (I'm still laughing at those people), but realistically Melee got dumped because of pretty much every reason in this thread of why the game isnt huge - the game and the community doesnt really fit into that kind of place, and the changes wont be made for it.

 

[Moe)2]

Melee takes too much skill and work to be good at, not too mention its graphics are not as good as Brawls and it does not have as many characters... its not like people care about gameplay or anything like that, they just want somthing flashy to ahppen and make themselves feel like they are amazing at somthing because their all noobs in RL.

"your teachers lied to you when they said any1 even you could become an astronaught"
"some people are just naturally better at somthings than others, there is somthing called talent."

 

[Masmasher@]

IMO I thought when EVO traded in melee for brawl it was because it was newer.They didnt listen when SWF tried to tell them the ruleset for the game should be changed I.e no items, random stages are rubbish etc... In the end the tournament turned out less numbers/competitors then melee at last years EVO and local tournaments but spectator wise it was a sucess. After the back lash form the competitive community they got brawl taken off the list because it wasnt the way they had planed it out. It least for them they kept their intergrity and vision even though alot of people have said they like brawl the way sakurai meant for it to be played.
In the end though EVO got the last laugh IMO cause brawls A$$ when you try to play it like melee. LMFAO
This new generation in fighters is predominatly lazy. They dont realize the fun in trying to get good at one. So some of the genre has been watered down to cater to them Some still keep depth in their games though.
Those still saying melee has SO much depth you have to realize that the community is lucky the game turned out the way it did with all our changes. Other fighters have more support in their systems.

 

[SDC]

brawl is better. dont know why you losers are still posting about this dumb game anyway..

everyone knows wavedashing is for tourney***s, and you guys are all nerds!!!
halo rules, its the best game ever, melee will never touch halo. halo has such a deep story and gameplay. brawl and halo rule. you guys are bitter nards.

rofl

 

[Dogysamich]

evo changed the ruleset cause they were trying to come up with something that wouldnt take 10 years to finish. They actually asked for opinions, but the people running brawl said they werent coming here asking for advice because the smash community is looked down upon by everybody else.

Before evo happened, the people running brawl said they cant change the rules now, but they'd be willing to take feedback and change it next (read: this) year. The feedback was nobody "we'll stay in our lil smash corner and pout like always", so out goes smash all together.

___

As for fighters now-a-day, the mainstream ones are genearlly trying to bring in a newer audience, which is why they're overall dumbed down. That doesnt mean that old games still dont get played and still dont have a fanbase.

If that's the case, somebody tell me how the hell super turbo is STILL being played?

 

[channlsrfr]

If you guess incorrectly when crouch-canceling, the risk in doing so is still very much in your favor in a ******** way. You crouch and get hit? Free **** for you. You crouch and he, say, does nothing or misses or whatever? You're crouching, and you're not restricted at all, whereas in other games a "counter" type function like that would have you vulnerable enough to be a big sitting babby duck if you screw it up. Being wrong = lose in this case isn't a big enough deal for what the possible reward and usability of cc'ing as it is should logically push for.

I don't know, maybe we're playing different games. Seems to me that CC'ing against a good player is almost useless, except in *extremely* specific situations.

brawl is better.

lol! Read Moe's post; he hit it on the head.

halo has such a deep story

LOL! Come on, really? That's like saying the movie about a butt in "Idiocracy" deserved the Best Screenplay Oscar. There are ancient weapons hanging about the Universe. We humans make enemies and have to use the weapons to blow stuff up. Other than that, the "story" is just a timeline -- lots of dots with few connections. A story can't just have a butt; it has to make the audience care about the butt, and why it is farting.

 

[rehab]

Crouch canceling has weaknesses, but saying it doesn't get used as a viable mixup against good people is ********, and it's an imbalanced mixup as far as both ease of us on reaction and risk/reward for its function are concerned.

I found that sean's post such blatant sarcasm that it was borderline ineffective but SWF proves the exception once again

 

[Samochan]

Crouch canceling has weaknesses, but saying it doesn't get used as a viable mixup against good people is ********, and it's an imbalanced mixup as far as both ease of us on reaction and risk/reward for its function are concerned.

I found that sean's post such blatant sarcasm that it was borderline ineffective but SWF proves the exception once again

I was adressing the issue of cc'ing being free move, but firefox somehow managed to error on me, so I lost my tirade. <_<

If you guess incorrectly when crouch-canceling, the risk in doing so is still very much in your favor in a ******** way. You crouch and get hit? Free **** for you. You crouch and he, say, does nothing or misses or whatever? You're crouching, and you're not restricted at all, whereas in other games a "counter" type function like that would have you vulnerable enough to be a big sitting babby duck if you screw it up. Being wrong = lose in this case isn't a big enough deal for what the possible reward and usability of cc'ing as it is should logically push for.

Cc'ing has many weaknesses and not every char is even good at cc'ing. High hitstun attacks cannot be cc'ed, neither meteor attacks and trying to do so at med%-> will result your character only falling to the ground and being unable to retaliate, at higher% you can get punshed off stage and be unable to recover. Instead of dodging falco's dair, trying to cc it leads into his combos or worse, fsmash and death. Same with failing to utilise good speed in cc'ing to retaliating with a move, good opponents will predict it and will avoid it and punish it. For example, there is a big difference in when a fox uses nair that hits your opponent way before he touches ground, resulting in easy cc, instead of fox dairing or using nair in such a way it only connects when he's close to ground and then shines very quickly. Or simply fox not attacking close range at all and laser spamming, forcing you to move instead of cc'ing all day olol. CC'ign is a very viable mixup at lower%, but it gets less useful when your percentage rises and is character and move dependant, both you and opponent. So hardly a free movement.

 

[Masmasher@]

evo changed the ruleset cause they were trying to come up with something that wouldnt take 10 years to finish. They actually asked for opinions, but the people running brawl said they werent coming here asking for advice because the smash community is looked down upon by everybody else.

Before evo happened, the people running brawl said they cant change the rules now, but they'd be willing to take feedback and change it next (read: this) year. The feedback was nobody "we'll stay in our lil smash corner and pout like always", so out goes smash all together.

___

As for fighters now-a-day, the mainstream ones are genearlly trying to bring in a newer audience, which is why they're overall dumbed down. That doesnt mean that old games still dont get played and still dont have a fanbase.

If that's the case, somebody tell me how the hell super turbo is STILL being played?

I didnt know about the last part about them pouting that changes things... They should have put some feedback in.
Though that doesnt change the fact that trying to play brawl like melee is completely ridiculous and asinine.
I agree with you about EVO looking down on the community it just seemed fumbled from the beginning.
Also I cant bring my self to play super turbo

 

[MarioMariox2]

I also kinda ask why isn't SF that huge either?

 

[rehab]

For one thing, fighters have been in something like a slump in terms of popularity for a few years, and for another, which is probably more important, most traditional fighting game players don't really care to have a Halo-or-larger-sized scene. Some of them have said if they took a "get that paper" approach to it only, they would have quit years ago. They're content with a "small" scene, though it's picking up due to current release circumstances/hype etc.

 

[joeplicate]

Melee was one of the original games at MLG. (I mean, you DO realize who owns this site, right?) Dropped when they went shooter oriented. It'll probably never get picked up again, especially with brawl being around.

Melee was at evo for one year. Traded next year for Brawl. It's possible to say that it got wrongfully traded out because most people expected Brawl to be Super Melee (I'm still laughing at those people), but realistically Melee got dumped because of pretty much every reason in this thread of why the game isnt huge - the game and the community doesnt really fit into that kind of place, and the changes wont be made for it.

I know all this


and what happened when mlg kept supporting melee? the community skyrocketed in terms of numbers and competition. it got dropped because mlg is lookin for that $$$, which means new games and new players trying out the "next big thing." now they're doing more and more with brawl, and might pick it up.

it seems like evo tried out melee as an experiment, then dropped it because it's not a fighting game like all the others. Then they did their ******** brawl, and it sucked, and now they're doing normal brawl, except it's probably too late because they basically scorned the community.

Would I attend an evo event if they had proper melee support? Yes. I think other people would, too. If you have a big sponsor, a lot of people will go, and the game gets big because everyone sees that people (and companies with lots of money) still support the community.

 

[Shadow Huan]

i think you could learn more from large amounts of friendlies, especially against challenging players, than by beating up on people below your own level and simply reinforcing your bad habits

This is assuming that the people you play in friendlies aren't sandbagging like ***holes like the people I played in friendlies @ MM 16. What's the point of "learning" from friendlies if the better player isn't giving it their all?

 

[weon - X]

i dont know why melee isn't huge, but i certainly know why i get huge for melee :$

 

[Vulcan55]

Haha, oh wow.

 

[CJ671 aka Blank]

bR@w1 n00b$ i$ wHy.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

i dont know why melee isn't huge, but i certainly know why i get huge for melee :$

 

[CJ671 aka Blank]

well i think i got an idea as to why melee was never really that huge nor it will ever be. i think a good analogy would be a comparison with school.

take for example algebra 1 math. it is a required course because it is basic and used by everyone. then compare it with AP calculus. AP classes are often optional and exceptionally harder or more difficult. they also require more effort and work. well i think melee and brawl worked the same way. brawl was more accessible and made easier for the masses thus making it more used and acquired. whereas melee, it is the harder of the two and often the people who pick the harder and more difficult things in life are those who are generally more intelligent, skilled, or whatever important trait it pertains to. so quite frankly those who made the statement that in the game's depth lies it's greatest weakness, you were right. it is this trait and quality that makes it so great yet so insurmountable to a majority of the masses.

 

[weon - X]

scoobycafe i get that all the time... why?

cj671 i can understan what you're sayin but i can tell you that i started out in smash by the time brawl came out (with brawl) and i just got pretty bored by the stale gameplay it has, and i allways considered melee as a superior competetive game (deep down inside), but i never had the balls to go serious in melee becouse everybody was just too good, and the gameplay was way too advanced, but the i said to myself, "thats just pussytalk, be a man and play melee" so i started playin and i started beating people that used to **** me.

Its a matter of time that the rest of the brawlers get bored of "that game", just as i did.

 

[SunriseW12]

I don't know, maybe we're playing different games. Seems to me that CC'ing against a good player is almost useless, except in *extremely* specific situations.



lol! Read Moe's post; he hit it on the head.



LOL! Come on, really? That's like saying the movie about a butt in "Idiocracy" deserved the Best Screenplay Oscar. There are ancient weapons hanging about the Universe. We humans make enemies and have to use the weapons to blow stuff up. Other than that, the "story" is just a timeline -- lots of dots with few connections. A story can't just have a butt; it has to make the audience care about the butt, and why it is farting.

 

[SDC]

I don't know, maybe we're playing different games. Seems to me that CC'ing against a good player is almost useless, except in *extremely* specific situations.



lol! Read Moe's post; he hit it on the head.



LOL! Come on, really? That's like saying the movie about a butt in "Idiocracy" deserved the Best Screenplay Oscar. There are ancient weapons hanging about the Universe. We humans make enemies and have to use the weapons to blow stuff up. Other than that, the "story" is just a timeline -- lots of dots with few connections. A story can't just have a butt; it has to make the audience care about the butt, and why it is farting.

you know i was being sarcastic, right? i decided to just start messin around when i saw how dam pointlessly long this thread was going. dont you see the mew2 in my fave char area???
lol this thread IS going on too long, the reasons for why melee isnt extremely popular have already been stated and are just being repeated over and over and over again.

oh and by the way, critiquing someone's sarcastic quote is like bill oreilly complementing stephen colbert for his "conservativeness": he's a ****** for taking it seriously.

 

[joeplicate]

well i think i got an idea as to why melee was never really that huge nor it will ever be. i think a good analogy would be a comparison with school.

take for example algebra 1 math. it is a required course because it is basic and used by everyone. then compare it with AP calculus. AP classes are often optional and exceptionally harder or more difficult. they also require more effort and work. well i think melee and brawl worked the same way. brawl was more accessible and made easier for the masses thus making it more used and acquired. whereas melee, it is the harder of the two and often the people who pick the harder and more difficult things in life are those who are generally more intelligent, skilled, or whatever important trait it pertains to. so quite frankly those who made the statement that in the game's depth lies it's greatest weakness, you were right. it is this trait and quality that makes it so great yet so insurmountable to a majority of the masses.

that's a pretty terrible analogy

one of my least favorite things is when people say that melee is too deep/intense for everyone, and that's why it's dying

whether or not its being phased out (opinions vary, but I don't think it is), it's probably not because it's too good of a game.

 

[SDC]

that's a pretty terrible analogy

one of my least favorite things is when people say that melee is too deep/intense for everyone, and that's why it's dying

whether or not its being phased out (opinions vary, but I don't think it is), it's probably not because it's too good of a game.

we say its too deep because for alot of people, it is. its not that melee is just TOO deep, its because alot of people are just TOO stupid (i.e. most halo fanboys)

 

[NintenJoe]

one of my least favorite things is when people say that melee is too deep/intense for everyone, and that's why it's dying

Isn't that why Melee is dying, though? Age coupled with the fact that there is a more accesible and easier alternative (Brawl) really screw Melee in terms of popularity. Unless Nintendo decides to re-make Melee, (which seems unlikely considering that they won't make another smash game) I don't see Melee making an incredible comeback any time soon.

 

[channlsrfr]

you know i was being sarcastic, right? i decided to just start messin around when i saw how dam pointlessly long this thread was going. dont you see the mew2 in my fave char area???
lol this thread IS going on too long, the reasons for why melee isnt extremely popular have already been stated and are just being repeated over and over and over again.

oh and by the way, critiquing someone's sarcastic quote is like bill oreilly complementing stephen colbert for his "conservativeness": he's a ****** for taking it seriously.

Dude, you wouldn't believe the reasons I've heard for people having their given "favorite character" icons. That doesn't say a whole lot to me.

For future reference: In written communication, sarcasm does not work (unless you're an author who's established a voice over the course of a few chapters of a novel). Please try to avoid it. No need to call me a ******. I thought you were a Halo fanboy; you're not; we agree; chill.

 

[joeplicate]

sarcasm raaaapes

if you can't pick up on it, tough ****
or just call out the writer for being bad (if it really is their fault, and not yours)

we say its too deep because for alot of people, it is. its not that melee is just TOO deep, its because alot of people are just TOO stupid (i.e. most halo fanboys)

First, halo fanboys is a huge generalization that I'm almost positive you're wrong about.

In my eyes, people being too _____ to comprehend something is the same as something being incomprehensible. The definition of "too deep (to play)" depends on its audience; that's like saying yao ming isn't TOO tall, everyone else is TOO short.

Isn't that why Melee is dying, though? Age coupled with the fact that there is a more accesible and easier alternative (Brawl) really screw Melee in terms of popularity. Unless Nintendo decides to re-make Melee, (which seems unlikely considering that they won't make another smash game) I don't see Melee making an incredible comeback any time soon.

You didn't see the signups for genesis, nintenjoe? It's like 690 brawl, 680 melee.

or Neal's new article on aib about melee?
"GENESIS figures to cause a huge resurgence in Melee interest and will be a great time for any new members of the community to check out Brawl's older cousin."
sounds like a comeback to me.

With melee in the spotlight, just like that, interest gets renewed. What makes it less popular is its age, not the fact that it's "inaccessible."

Take the analogs of Super Turbo (or HDR) and 3rd Strike. The games are old, but the scene is still big because there's continued support from Evo. Street Fighter 4 is more accessible and "easier" than both of these games, but the 3 versions still coexist in the competitive community.

How? It's because they have a big sponsor. People see that the older games are still worth playing--you can still win money, still get recognition, still be a part of a vibrant community. With melee, it's a bunch of people playing for the love of the game. You can't win a sponsorship from Monster, get interviewed by a professional agency, or be on the side of a Dr. Pepper bottle.

Melee "died" because it got outshadowed by brawl, and people in the community and in leagues like MLG and Evo stopped showing support for it. Once World of Warcraft came out, what happened to Warcraft III? Exactly, nobody plays it anymore except for dota, which has a miniscule amount of players compared to the newer game.