"Why is this stage banned?" A Q&A regarding stage legality

[sunshade]

The stage legality Q and A thread

Into/intentions of this thread/about me

Many brawlers new and old often have misunderstandings regarding why stages are legal or banned in tournaments and by the brawl backroom. The intention of this thread is to help newcomers and veterans alike better understand why we do what we do.

Everyone is bias and I am without exceptions. I am going to try and come at this thread from a neutral point of view but in reality there will be a bias towards keeping many stages legal. If anyone feels that I am presenting something in an incorrect light please correct me and provide me with a suggestion of how to improve what I wrote or said.

Now lets start with the most basic but often looked over question.

Why do we ban stages to begin with?

Stages are often banned for many reasons some well thought out some not quite. The two major reasons for banning stages are over centralizing a single tactic/strategy, and marginalizing player skill. The stage being "stupid", "janky", or "gay" are not reasons to ban a stage and I cannot stress this enough.

Hey sunshade, what are you talking about when you say "over centralizing a single tactic/strategy, and marginalizing player skill"?

Glad you asked!

If a tactic/strategy is the only viable way of playing in a competitive environment then it is "over centralizing". Generally speaking if something is effective people will do it. People will catch on and learn to counter this and the metagame will balance out. If something cannot be countered you will see players using it and nobody stopping it. This tactic will eventually saturate the game and will get to the point in which we can reasonably declare it unfit for competitive play on the grounds of being broken.

Now onto "marginalizing player skill". If a the skill of the players involved is being made unimportant due to an element of the stage then we can say that the stage is making skill unimportant. Excessively random elements can be declared "marginalizing player skill" and if an advantage given by a stage is large enough it can be declared "marginalizing player skill" as well.

"Why is [insert stage here] banned?"

Stages which do not meet any criteria for banning

[Collapse=Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Halberd, Castle Siege, Pokémon Stadium 2, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Yoshi's Island (Melee)]

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Battlefield

Smashville

Final Destination

Lylat Cruise

Pokémon Stadium 1

Gotta know it all! Pokemon​

Part 2 of the series, I present to you...

Pokemon Stadium 1 analysis

To start off, I'll detail the five transformations (no pics again ).
​

Normal
Layout: Flat ground, with 2 platforms above it on the left and right.

Rock
Layout: Rugged bottom platform, with 5 aerial platforms in the center. Two on the left are very small and attached to the mountain, they are parallel and are flat. The other three on the right are all on top of each other, each with their own different angle. The bottom aerial platform is at a steep angle that touches the ground so that you can walk on it. The moutain itself is the largest part of the stage. The top can be stepped on and the left side of the mountain is a steep drop to the edge of the stage

Grass
Layout: Flat main platform. There is a small elevated plateau on the right, it ends about 1/3 of the level through, followed by a flat grass area that goes the rest of the level through. There is also a river a little left of the halfway mark that has a minor depression. There are three aerial platforms of this second stage. One medium sized one halfway of the staged and risen and another one higher than it and to the left. The second platform starts halfway of the first platform. The third and final platform is to the right that is flat and very small.


Water
Layout: It is flat on the right side with an elevated left side that depresses back down before the stage ends at the left side. On the smooth right side of the level, there are two aerial platforms. A lower one just left of the halfway mark, and a higher one to the right of it. The thing that makes this stage very memorable is the windmill on the left side. The arms of the windmill spin slowly and you can stand on them, but they will dump you off if you stand on the current lowest arm.

Fire
Layout: The bottom platform is not very flat at all. The middle is a small valley. Where the valley ends on the right, it is flat through the rest of the level. There is one floating platform that follows the elevated plateau for the rest of the level. That floating platform is flat. To the left of the valley in the middle is an unusual shaped obstacle. As soon as the valley ends on the left, there is a strait up elevation that you can not pass through (however some attacks can, that is a good strategy to keep in mind). Most characters need to double jump this hurdle, which you can stand on the top of it. After the platform that is the top of the hurdle, it goes straight down again, but only half way. At a 45 degree angle up and left, there is a medium sized platform that sticks out to the end of the level. It is possible to stand under that 45 degree angle and the platform to the left.

8-Minute Timer​

I color-coded everything again. See above for the colors.

Also, the transformations start when the screen starts to show the icon.

And now for the data:

8:00 [COLOR=Sienna]7:19[/COLOR] 6:48 [COLOR=Red]5:58[/COLOR] 5:24 [COLOR=Blue]4:30[/COLOR] 3:59 [COLOR=Green]3:05[/COLOR] 2:32 [COLOR=Red]1:36[/COLOR] 1:03 [COLOR=Blue]0:09[/COLOR]

My conclusion:

Similar to PS2, this stadium also seems to follow the 4-set rule (Sets of 4 transformations are randomly made, however the same transition does not appear twice in a set. the sets come one after each other).

Halberd

Castle Siege

Storming The Castle:
A Pocket Guide to Castle Siege
​

Welcome to Castle Siege! (Castlevania Edition)

Castle Siege is currently included as a starter for the 7 and 9 variations of the BBR Ruleset 3.1 stagelist, and as such, it is important to be aware of the different facets this stage. This is basically going to be a general, trimmed-down version of my Marth-boards guide to the stage.

Warning: As usual, this guide is picture-heavy.

​

Stages
​

On that note, the first thing to be aware of is that Castle Siege is composed of 3 main stages, with a transition screen to accommodate the switch between them. The first is its initial format, displayed above. Stage 1 is composed of a single main platform, with two platforms of equal height on either side. The only difference in symmetry is the slight incline in the middle of the stage. The right side is slightly higher than the left.

Stage 1 is also notable for its two small lips on either side. These are especially important to us because one side CAN lip us, and the other CANNOT. (Note: This is Marth-pertinent, other characters MAY get lipped)

The right side is the safe one. The lip is small enough that even if you TRY to lip yourself using DS, you will snap to the ledge, provided you are high enough. The left side, however, is much more pronounced, and it can and WILL kill you if you don't aim your recovery correctly. Pay attention and space correctly, and you'll be fine. It is slightly more touchy than FD, but not as bad as PS1.

Right Lip

Left Lip

​

As for Stage 1's blastzones, I was actually able to get an accurate picture thanks to my stage texture. Left and right blastzones are actually surprisingly large.

The bottom blastzone is quite deep compared to most stages. this is one of of the few where Marth CANNOT recover vertically all the way from the blastzone, but he can get pretty close.The ceiling is pretty average, if maybe a bit short. Be careful not to get hit too close to the top.

IMPORTANT
​

Castle Siege has a very simple pattern for its transitions. It will spend exactly 40 seconds on each transition, and the transition screen in between will take between 2 and 8 seconds, depending on HOW FAST YOUR WII LOADS.

​

It is also worth nothing that character transformations such as Zelda -> Sheik or PT switching WILL be delayed by the stage. The game will load the stage first, THEN your character.

In addition to this, much like the Zelda -> Sheik transformation, pausing the game during the transition screen to allow it to load WILL cut the time down to a mere second or so. Pausing mid-match in tourney is illegal, but it is worth nothing.

Also affecting this transition screen is a strange glitch that will cause a character to not be caught by the floor as it rises up to clear the transition. This appears to be related to holding the ledge during the switch, however I did have it happen to my CPU MK who was just standing there when I was gathering pictures. It's uncommon, and our recovery has no problem dealing with it, just be aware of it.

The transition screen is also an interesting opportunity for us. If you decide to play aggresive, you can score an early kill by forcing your opponent to be close to the blastzone as the stage changes. (This is particularly effective coming into Stage 1 or 3) However, this situation can just as easily be reversed. Because the stage rising up affects your momentum, we lose a significant amount of height on our jumps. I would sooner opt to control the center to gain optimal positioning as the next stage arrives.

Stage 2 is composed of the large inner section of the castle. This includes the main room, the two large statues holding platforms, and the two hanging canopies above. All the platforms on the stage are semi-permeable. The left and right blastzones on this transition are actually quite far. If you DI towards the corners, it is quite possible to live for a long time.

The ceiling for this transition is also quite high, allowing us to survive a very long time vertically.

​

This stage revolves largely around us abusing the platforms to read landings. because they cover the majority of the stage (horizontally), it can be quite difficult to land after beginning a juggle.

Against certain characters with chaingrabs, namely: Dedede and Falco, staying off the ground is advised, as they can and WILL walk you off the side of the stage. Fortunately, the presence of the canopies means that it is not very difficult to stall out the 40 seconds on the transition, especially against Dedede, who is sorely lacking in aerial mobility.

It is also worth noting that the statues holding the lower platforms CAN be destroyed, however their hitboxes are only the statues themselves, not the platforms. I did some rough testing to determine how much damage it takes to break them, as it is not based on a specific number of hits. In training mode (no stale moves) it takes 4 U-Smashes, which does about 20% fresh. In a regular match, it takes 5, which leads me to conclude that the statues can sustain about 70% damage before crumbling.

Another important thing to note regarding the statues is that they are considered destructible environment. What this means to us is that they interact very similar to the destructible portions of Brinstar or Luigi's Mansion. They refresh moves, extend the duration of attacks, and in some cases (like Snakes grenades, IIRC), the hitboxes of attacks.

The most important of these qualities is the extended duration. Moves with a lot of hitlag, like DK's F-Smash, will stay out an exceptionally long time, so it can hit you out of a spot-dodge. This is, however, good for us as well. Because many of Marth's attacks have what is known as "cinematic hitlag", attacks like F-Smash or D-Smash stay out a really long time. Keep it in mind if you are fighting in close proximity to the statues.

Castle Siege's third stage is the large, precariously positioned tilting platform in the caverns below the castle. This stage is basically FD with a bump in the middle. Unfortunately, it also has a rather extreme lip on the platform, so we have to recover with caution. When combined with the erratic tilting of the platform, it can make it quite dangerous to recover.

Stage 3's blastzones are also quite large, in all four directions. Note that for the ceiling, I was barely out of the magnifying glass, so the actual blastzone is higher than pictured.

That's all for the pocket guide. Feel free to read my Marth-specific version if you care.​

Pokémon Stadium 2

<hr>
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick
Vote: (3-16-2)

We feel that Pokemon Stadium 2 was banned in many regions without being given a fair chance. The votecount clearly shows that we do not think this stage should be banned.

The most common issue brought up with this stage is that it forces players to deal with changes in the game's physics, such as icy floors or low gravity. However, the majority consensus was that these changes do not degrade play, but instead open up new options that can be used to the advantage of the player that takes the time to become familiar with the stage.

The tendency for transformations to lead to stalling was raised as a concern, as several characters can stall the entire duration of Flying transformation, and both Electric and Ground transformations tend to discourage approach. For this we look at the precedent set by Pokemon Stadium 1, for which there are no qualms about its legality. As Rock and Fire transformations also have a tendency to halt battle, it is clear that the 30 second intervals of ceasefire is not a banworthy quality for Pokemon Stadium 2.

A strong point for its legality lies in the fact that no characters seem to consider this stage a strong counterpick, and no characters seem to consider this one of their worst stages. This leads us to believe that this is a very fair stage overall. In fact, with no characters currently considering Pokemon Stadium 2 as a strong counterpick, there was a movement to allow Pokemon Stadium 2 to be considered as a Starter stage.

Gotta know it all! Pokemon.​

Okay, for another stage mechanics test, I present to you....

Pokemon Stadium 2 Analysis

To start off, i'll detail the 5 stages of Pokemon stadium (unfortunately, no images ):

Normal
Layout: One flat platform with two platforms above it.
Info: Nothing special, the simplest transformation.

Electricity
Layout: Has two conveyor belts near the edges on the stage, both rotating outward. The two platforms are replaced by three platforms in varying locations, either above the center of the stage, above either conveyor belt, or very high above the center of the stage.
Info: The conveyor belts on the left and right can either help you or hurt you. Remember, they move toward the outside of the stage.

Rock
Layout: The layout changes to a large mound of dirt and a hut built into a tall rock. The hut provides two platforms, the lower one being longer and curved, and the higher one being short and flat.
Info: The slope is the distinguishing factor of this stage. Use it to your advantage.

Ice
Layout: Long, flat platform with two platforms sloping inwards. Covered in ice.
Info: The slippery ice can either help you approach or help get away.

Wind
Layout: One long, slightly elevated platform. There is an updraft.
Info: The wind an seriously help air characters (like puff).

8-minute Timer

I color coded everything again.

White is normal
[COLOR=Yellow]Yellow[/COLOR] is electricity
[COLOR=Sienna]Sienna[/COLOR] is rock
[COLOR=Cyan]Cyan[/COLOR] is ice
[COLOR=Silver]Silver[/COLOR] is air

It also should be noted that the transitions start when the symbol starts to flash.

And now for the data:

8:00 [COLOR=Yellow]7:15[/COLOR] 6:43 [COLOR=Cyan]5:50[/COLOR] 5:14 [COLOR=Sienna]4:18 [/COLOR]3:47 [COLOR=Silver]2:52[/COLOR] 2:16 [COLOR=Cyan]1:21[/COLOR] 0:46

My conclusion

From this data, I assume that the pattern works like this: random set of 4 transformations, however none will repeat. after that, it does a new set, and none of them will repeat.

Ex: red, blue, green, yellow, green, red, yellow, blue.

Frigate Orpheon

Stage Gimmicks!
​

As pictured above, Orpheon's main gimmick is that the stage FLIPS in order to switch from one transition to the other. This transition is always preceded by the loud warning siren and accompanying flashing lights. This warning signal gives you about 3 seconds to get to somewhere safe, then the stage will flip. The important thing to note about the flips is that while the stage moves, YOU do not, unless you are still ON the stage. What this means is, as it quickly rotates, if you're still standing on it, you'll fall off, usually at a reasonably high distance in the air, depending on which direction the stage rotated. Note that DURING this flip, you cannot latch onto the stage's edges until it stops moving.

Now to address a silly concern: Getting star KO'd by the stage. This is an extremely rare occurrence, and should only happen if you are in an obviously bad place when it flips. In this case, our obviously bad place is in the path of whichever side rotates upwards. If you happen to be in the way of the rather solid stage as it rotates, it can and will star KO you. This is absolutely no reason to ban the stage, it's just another easy to adapt to mechanic. Given the time between the warning and the flip, it is QUITE reasonable to expect to be able to get somewhere safe. (Easiest thing to do is just jump towards the middle of the screen)

Now, on to a load of data and funny business. In order to determine if there was some sort of pattern to Frigate Orpheon's flipping shenanigans, I took 10 trial runs through a full 8-minute match, to see if I could determine a pattern. I'm pleased to say I can provide a general guideline of the trends and timing of the stage. Within the following collapse box is the data from these 10 runs, which I will elaborate on below it.

Spoiler

Trial 1:
Flip at 7:17 (Now on Phase 2)
Right slide-in (7:02-6:57) (15 without, 5 with)
Left Slide-in (6:55-6:52) (17 without, 8 with)
Right SI (6:50-6:47) (19 without, 11 with)
Left SI (6:47-6:46) (19 without, 12 with)
Left AND Right (6:40-6:37(left)/6:36(Right) (25 without, 16 with)
Left (6:30-6:27) (31 without, 19 with)
Right (6:27-6:24) (31 without, 22 with)
Lights comes on (6:18)
Left SI (6:18-6:15) (37 without, 25 with)
Right SI (6:15-6:12) (37 without, 28 with)
Left and Right (6:05-6:03/6:02) (44 w/o, 31 w)
Left (5:55-5:53) (51 w/o, 33 w)
Right (5:54-5:50) (51 w/o, 36 w)
Flip at 5:47 (Lights ON) (Now on Phase 1)
Flip at 5:22 (Lights ON) (Now on Phase 2)
Right (5:17-5:16) (56 w/o, 36 w)
Left (5:15-5:11) (57 w/o, 40 w)
Right (5:07-5:04) (61 w/o, 43 w)
Left (5:01-4:59) ( 64 w/o, 46 w)
Right (4:55-4:52) (68 w/o, 49 w)
Left (4:52- 4:49) (68 w/o, 52 w)
Lights OFF (4:44) (72 w/o, 52 w)
Right (4:45- 4:41) (72 w/o, 56 w)
Left (4:42-4:41) (72 w/o, 56 w)
Left and Right (4:34- 4:32/4:28) (79 w/o, 62 w)
Left (4:24-4:22) (83 w/o, 64 w)
Right (4:22- 4:18) (83 w/o, 68 w)
Left (4:14-4:11) (87 w/o, 71 w)
LIGHTS ON (4:11)
Right (4:10- 4:06) (88 w/o, 75 w)
Left (4:06-4:05) (88 w/o, 76 w)
Right (3:58-3:55) (95 w/o, 79 w)
Left (3:56-3:55) (95 w/o, 79 w)
Left (3:48-3:47) (102 w/o, 80 w)
Right (3:46- 3:43) (103 w/o, 83 w)
FLIP AT 3:40 (LIGHTS ON) (Phase 1) (106 w/o, 83 w)
Flip at 3:15 (LIGHTS ON) (Phase 2)
Right (On during flip- 3:11) (106 w/o, 87 w)
Left (3:10 -3:08) (107 w/o, 89 w)
Right (3:01 – 2:58) (114 w/o, 92 w)
Left (2:58-2:57) (114 w/o, 93 w)
Right and Left (2:52-2:47) (119 w/o, 98 w)
LIGHTS OFF (2:40) (126 w/o, 98 w)
Right and Left (2:37- 2:34) (129 w/o, 101 w)
Right and Left (2:25- 2:25(Left)/2:21 (Right) (138 w/o, 105 w)
Left (2:16- 2;14) (143 w/o, 107 w)
Right (2:12- 2:09) (145 w/o, 110 w)
LIGHTS ON (2:07)
Left (2:06-2:06) (148 w/o, 111 w)
Right (2:01- 1:57) (153 w/o, 115 w)
Left (1:57- 1:56) (153 w/o, 116 w)
Right (1:50 – 1:47) (159 w/o, 119 w)
Left (1:48 – 1:47)
Left and Right (1:40-1:37(Left)/1:36(Right)) (166 w/o, 123 w)
Flip at 1:34 (Phase 1) (169 w/o, 123 w)
Flip at 1:04 (Phase 2)
Left (1:01-0:57) (172 w/o, 127 w)
Right (0:54-0:51) (175 w/o, 130 w)
Left (0:48-0:45) (178 w/o, 133 w)
Right (0:42-0:39) (181 w/o, 136 w)
Left (0:37-0:34) (183 w/o, 139 w)
LIGHTS OFF (0:33)
Right (0:30-0:26) (187 w/o, 143 w)
Left (0:25-0:22) (188 w/o, 146 w)
Right (0:17-0:14) (193 w/o, 149 w)
Left (0:12-0:11) (195 w/o, 150 w)
Right (0:07-0:04) (199 w/o, 154 w)
Left (0:03 to End) (200 w/o, 157 w)
LIGHTS ON (0:02)
Initial Hypothesis: Stage cannot flip when lights are off, platforms alternate, with no particular pattern for the double segments. Platforms are in anywhere between 1 and 5 seconds, left seems to stay less than the right. Seems to be a 6-second gap before and after a double platform segment, though a six second gap does not always indicate a double plat.
Time Spent on Phase 1: 2:03 of 8 minutes. 25%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 5:57 of 8 minutes. 75%
Platforms In: 2:37 of 5:57 minutes. 44%
Platforms Out: 3:20 of 5:57 minutes. 56%
Flip Count: 7

Trial 2
Start (8:00)
FLIP AT 7:20 (Phase 2)
Lights off at 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Lights off at 5:40
Lights on at 5:10
Flip at 4:37 (1:10 later then expected) (Phase 1)
Flip at 4:12 (Exactly when expected + 1:10) (Phase 2)
Lights off at 3:33
Lights on at 3:03
Flip at 2:30 (Expected + 1:10) (Phase 1)
Lights off at 1:52
Lights on at 1:20
Flip at 0:47 (Phase 2)
Flip at 0:22 (Phase 1)
Time Spent on Phase 1: 168 of 480 seconds – 35%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 312 of 480 seconds – 65%

Trial 3
Start (8:00)
Flip at (7:23) Phase 2 *DIED*
Lights off at 6:40
Lights on at 6:10
FLIP AT 5:40 Phase 1
Flip at 5:10 Phase 2
Lights off at 4:45
Lights on at 4:15
Flip at 3:40 Phase 1
Flip at 3:15 Phase 2
Lights off at 2:45
Lights on at 2:15
Flip at 1:37 Phase 1
Flip at 1:12 Phase 2
Lights off at 0:30
Lights on at 0:00
Time Spent on Phase 1: 117 of 480 seconds – 24%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 363 of 480 seconds – 76%

Trial 4
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:24 *PHASE 2*
Lights off at 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Flip at 5:44 *PHASE 1*
Flip at 5:20 *Phase 2*
Lights off 4:55
Lights on 4:25
Flip at 3:50 *Phase 1*
Flip at 3:20 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 2:40
Lights on at 2:10
Flip at 1:34 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 0:52
Lights on at 0:22
Time Spent on Phase 1: 223 of 480 – 46%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 257 of 480 – 54%

Trial 5
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:22 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:55
Lights on at 6:25
Flip at 5:50 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:25 *Phase 2*
Lights off 4:55
Lights on 4:25
Lights off at 3:45
Lights on 3:15
Flip at 2:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 2:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 1:35
Lights on at 1:05
Flip at 0:27 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 0:05
Time Spent on Phase 1: 115 of 480 – 24%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 365 of 480 – 76%

Trial 6
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Flip at 5:46 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 5:15
Lights on 4:45
Lights off 4:05
Lights on at 3:35
Flip at 3:00 *Phase 2*
Flip at 2:35 *Phase 1*
Lights off 2:00
Lights on 1:30
Lights off 0:55
Lights on 0:25
Time Spent on Phase 1: 366 of 480 – 76%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 114 of 480 – 24%

Trial 7
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:45
Lights on at 6:15
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:37
Lights on at 4:07
Lights off at 3:20
Lights on at 2:50
Flip at 2:17 *Phase 1*
Flip at 1:50 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 1:25
Lights on at 0:55
Flip at 0:20
Time Spent on Phase 1: 97 of 480 – 20%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 383 of 480 – 80%

Trial 8
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:17 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:45
Lights on at 6:15
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:50
Lights on at 4:20
Lights off 3:35
Lights on 3:05
Flip at 2:30 *phase 1*
Flip at 2:03 *phase 2*
Lights off at 1:40
Lights on at 1:10
Lights off at 0:28
Time Spent on Phase 1: 95 of 480 – 20%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 385 of 480 – 80%

Trial 9
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:18 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:43
Lights on at 6:13
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:12 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:50
Lights on at 4:20
Flip at 3:43 *Phase 1*
Flip at 3:18 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 2:45
Lights on at 2:15
Flip at 1:38 *Phase 1*
Flip at 1:10 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 0:30
Light on at End
Time Spent on Phase 1: 123 of 480 – 26%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 357 of 480 – 74%

Trial 10
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:22 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:42
Lights on at 6:12
Flip at 5:38 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:13 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:40
Lights on at 4:10
Lights off at 3:25
Lights on at 2:55
Flip at 2:20 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 1:58
Lights on at 1:28
Flip at 0:50 *Phase 2*
Flip at 0:25 *Phase 1*
Time Spent on Phase 1: 178 of 480 – 37%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 302 of 480 – 63%

TOTAL AVERAGES:
Time Spent on Phase 1: 33%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 66%

Now to elaborate on all those ugly numbers and logs.

In the first trial run, I recorded the flips, the lights, and when the platforms were present on the second transition. My data indicated that the platforms were in about 45% of the time, and that they alternated between left and right, with no real pattern to when there would be both simultaneously. As noted in the initial hypothesis, the left platforms seemed to stay onscreen for less time than the right. The left frequently visited for less than a second, while the right tended to stay longer towards 5 seconds, though both usually averaged around 3.

Recording every single platform was a huge hassle, and I so no discernible pattern worth finding, so I dropped that idea and focused on the flips and lighting. My finds were pleasing.

Firstly, on the lighting. When I refer to "Lights on" and "Lights off", I am referring to the background lighting that illuminates the Parasite Queen and the other portion of the stage. Why is this important? The stage WILL NOT FLIP IF THE LIGHTS ARE OFF.

Furthermore, the lights are always off for exactly 30 seconds at a time, so they can be used as a safety window to know that there CANNOT be a flip.

Now, onto the trends that can be drawn from the flipping and lighting. Most important thing to note, is that ALL TEN trials had a flip occur between 7:25 and 7:15. While I have heard stories of the stage not flipping at all, this leads me to believe this is a very strong trend that can be counted on.

Looking closer, we also see that after flipping to Phase 2, 22/26 times, the stage flipped BACK to Stage 2 after a mere 25-30 seconds. Trial 6 was the main exception to this trend, staying on Phase 1 for 75% of the time, in stark contrast to the other 9 trials, which all tipped in Phase 2's favor, usually around 70% of the time spent on it, even as much as 80%.

Why is this important to us? The main gripe about Frigate Orpheon is that its ledge on Phase 1 over-centralizes gameplay. Trials have indicated that Frigate spends on average, close to 70% of the time on the OTHER transition. (Even with the outlier run, it's still 66% of the time)

TL;DR version: Frigate spends 75% of the time on Phase 2, quit johning about the ledge and deal with it.

Adding to this from my Marth guide, Frigate is clearly more fit to be a starter over Delfino, when you consider that the main gripe for this stage is the lack of ledge on Phase 1, which the stage spends close to 75% of the time on.

Frigate > Walkoffs galore, temporary walls all over the place, water, changing blastzones, and a semi-permeable central platform.

NEW STUFF

Ok, so I decided to finally finish up looking at my notes to make a general outline of what to expect on this stage.

Firstly, I believe Frigate can be predicted largely by following a series of If -> Then statements.

The First major split comes at the 7:27-7:17 mark. In the majority of my trials, the stage has flipped at this point. If it does, it is HIGHLY likely that the majority of the time will be spent on Transition 2. If it does NOT flip at this point, my trials show that the stage will follow a pattern based around Transition 1.

The majority of what is going to happen revolves around a simple concept: If one thing happens, the other CANNOT happen for at least "x" amount of time.

Following the first flip to Phase 2, there is a 30-40 second gap before the next event.

After this buffer period passes, one of two thing will happen:

1) The Stage flips again.
2) The Lights go out.

If the lights go out, the prediction is simple. From the time the lights go out, they will be off for exactly 30 seconds. After this, we return to the former pattern of a 30-40 second gap, followed by the same If -> then.

If the stage FLIPS, the prediction gets a little hazier. The grand majority of my trials have shown the stage focusing primarily on one transition, based on whether or not it flips at 7:17. If it DOES flip, you get a type 2. What this means, it that if it flips BACK to phase 1, it becomes extremely likely that it will flip back to phase 2 after 25 seconds. It then resumes the 30 sec Gap -> If/Then pattern.

If it doesn't flip, you get a Type 1, and it does MORE OR LESS the same thing as type 2, just changing the transitions roles. It will usually spend a mere 25 second on Phase 2 if it DOES flip, then it will flip back to phase 1.

Predicting this stage is done simply by making educated guesses based on the timing and transition type, whether you have type 1 or 2. Between the If/Thens and reading the set time gaps, you can play here quite easily.

It is regrettable that the stage still seems to have some inherently random determinants, but by and large, it is quite easy to predict. Just be aware that every once in a while, it might screw you over.
​

Delfino Plaza

Brinstar

Rainbow Cruise

Jungle Japes

<hr>
Jungle Japes

Counterpick
Vote: (0-12-4)

In place where this stage was banned, Falco's performance was sometimes cited as a reason. However, there was a strong consensus that his strength here was overestimated, and is certainly no reason to ban the stage.

The Klap Trap was raised as a concern, but we decided it was a non-issue. Although it kills at low percents, it occupies space away from the main part of the stage. Combined with the fact that the timing of its appearance is completely predictable, this makes the Klap Trap a stage feature that can be incorporated into a strategy, rather than a hazard that interferes with gameplay.

The greater concern was for the stalling potential on the stage. The multiple ledges and the constant presence of water make running away significantly easier than on most other stages. Wario and Meta Knight in particular are two characters who could use these features effectively. While many of us acknowledge that this could be problematic, the fact that this stage has been legal in many regions, with no such strategy being proven to be overpowered or degenerate, is enough to allow this stage to remain legal until it is more conclusively shown that these stalling tactics are broken.

Yoshi's Island [Melee]

[/Collapse]

stages which are borderline (up to debate)

[Collapse=Pirate Ship, Pictochat, Norfair, Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, Onett, Corneria, Luigi's Mansion, Distant Planet, Rumble Falls, Skyworld]

Pirate Ship

proposed reason for banning:
Water camping (arguably over-centralizing)
Ridder camping (over-centralizing, debatable if stalling or legal in tournament play)

Water camping is the act of abusing water mechanics to make the player near or completely unapproachable to guarantee that a lead is not lost. Some feel that this tactic is to strong for competitive play and the stage should thus be removed. Others feel that this tactic is not as strong as it is made out to be and is not effective over the long term due to stage transformations.

<hr>
Pirate Ship

Counterpick/Banned
Vote: (0-11-11)

Pirate Ship was one of the most controversial stages discussed, and due to the tie in the votecount we have placed it in the Counter/Banned category.

Some felt the bombs were too strong of a hazard, with the potential to deal over 50% damage and KO at lower percents than most hazards, and that their trajectory was too difficult to follow. Others claimed that it was reasonable to expect the players to avoid the bombs, and that following the trajectory was just a matter of practice, and did not think the bombs were an issue despite the severe punishment inflicted when they connect.

Other minor concerns raised for this stage were the catapult and the period of low gravity while falling from the whirlwind. However, it was generally agreed that the catapult is not an issue as characters will only be killed by it with poor DI, and that low gravity is a tolerable change in physics that does not degrade gameplay.

The most controversial aspect of this stage, however, was the camping enabled by the presence of water, and in particular swimming under the rudder, or "rudder camping". Because not all characters have a way of forcing the opponent out from under the rudder, many matchups can see the game decided as soon as a stock lead is obtained. 31.7% of all matchups in the game see rudder camping as a problem. Some felt that rudder camping should be banned under stalling to allow the stage to be legal, while others felt that it should be Pirate Ship that is banned rather than rudder camping. Still others felt that even with rudder camping the stage should be legal. We have decided to leave the issue of whether swimming under the rudder should be labelled as stalling to the discretion of the TO. The TO's decision on the matter will likely be a major factor in placing the stage into the Counterpick or the Banned category.

Pictochat

proposed reason for banning:
excessive randomness (arguably marginalizing of skill)

Pictochat has a variety of transformations which can quickly change the flow of battle from one player to the other. The transformations do not have a set spawn time and but come roughly every 10-14 seconds. Some feel that the stage's randomness is enough to cause the stage to be unfit for competitive play. Others feel that the randomness comes in predictable enough packets and the presence of a "safe-zone" make the randomness acceptable and workable into a strategy.

For information on pictochats mechanics see T-block's thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270499

Norfair

proposed reason for banning:
overly intrusive hazards(arguably marginalizing of skill)
enhanced planking/camping(arguably over-centralizing)

Norfair has multiple hazards which appear frequently throughout the match and can often have a large influence over the match. Some feel that these hazards are enough to draw away from the competitive nature of the stage. Judo777 did a large study of norfair and found that most of the lava on norfair runs on a schedule and can be easily predicted and worked into a strategy making it acceptable in a competitive environment.

Others feel that norfair's six ledges and platform layout allows defensive play to become to powerful for a competitive environment and say that norfair will result in over centralization. Others say that tournament results do not indicate that norfair over centralizes defensive play and that we should not ban a stage until the issues present themselves.

Judo777's thread detailing the mechanics of norfair: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276248

Green Greens

proposed reason for banning:
overly intrusive hazards(arguably marginalizing of skill)
excessive randomness (arguably marginalizing of skill)

Green greens is a small stage with close blastzones and two strong hazards (explosive apples and bombs). Both the bombs and the apples come randomly and have heavy knockback. Some feel that two hazards are to intrusive for competitive play while others feel that they are easy enough to deal with to be acceptable.

<hr>
Green Greens

Counterpick
Vote: (0-11-6)

We recognize this stage has been controversial in the past, and after considering the merits and problems with this stage, we concluded it was overall an acceptable counterpick.

The single most dominating aspect of the debate was the randomness issue; Green Greens has three random aspects. The first is that blocks randomly fall into incomplete columns and may or may not be bombs, the second is that apples occasionally fall and may randomly be throwable items, healing items, or self-detonating explosives, and the third is that the wind event occurs randomly. The consensus on the blocks was that, while they do contain a significant random element, it is small when players understand the rules governing the stage and play correctly to minimize risk. It is further limited as a problem by the fact that good DI prevents deaths to the bomb blocks except at fairly high damage so getting hit into a randomly falling bomb block should very seldom be fatal. The apples were agreed to be somewhat harder to predict, but apples fall rarely with the most deadly aspect (exploding apples) being the rarest issue of all. Again, very rare misfortune may occur, but the vast majority of problems randomness in apples cause can be avoided by all players using smart play. The third random aspect, the wind, was not raised as a significant point and therefore is likely considered irrelevant to the stage's legality by the majority of the BBR. While some BBR members did feel the randomness was significant enough to warrant a ban, the majority did not feel it was especially significant when informed players approached the stage.

The potential for wall infintes was another concern for this stage, but it was ultimately decided by the majority to be acceptable. The breakable nature of the blocks does much to limit the power of wall infinites on this stage.

The closeness of blast zones was another concern, but the majority dismissed this concern. Some feel that blast zone proximity should not be a large concern when deciding counterpick status at all, and others were quick to point out that Green Greens is not as extreme as it initially seems. The main ground on Green Greens is actually slightly further from the upper blast zone than the deck of the Halberd, and play on Green Greens is usually based around the center stage which is reasonably distant from the side blast zones.

The stalling potential of this stage with under the stage antics and ledge stalling was considered but ultimately dismissed. The majority felt that, while this was a potential concern, it was not significantly more dangerous than it is on Smashville, an uncontroversial legal stage.

Matchup balance was the last point considered, but no consensus was reached on how powerful this stage was for characters such as Meta Knight. The fact that few seemed sure of the character balance on this stage was highlighted by what a rare pick this stage was at both MLG events. This uncertainty led us to conclude that this stage should not be banned on that basis.

Praxis's pro Green greens legalization thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243289

Port Town Aero Dive

proposed reason for banning:
overly intrusive hazards(arguably marginalizing of skill)
lack of ledges on the main platform(arguably over-centralizing)

Port Town Aero Dive features cars with significant knock back and a ledgeless main platform. Some feel that the cars on this stage are to strong and to intrusive to be allowed in competitive play. Others point to the cars having a set rotation and thus say that claims of the stages hazards being an issue is a product of inexperience.

For many characters a ledge is a vital part in the process of recovering and without a ledge. Some feel that an unacceptable number of characters are given near hard-counter match ups. opponents of this idea say that with proper DI players will rarely be put into such bad situations and that the stage will often hit players onto the stage again.

VVV thread detailing the mechanics of the stage VVV

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615

<hr>
Port Town Aero Dive

Counterpick
Vote: (0-19-16)

One concern raised for Port Town Aero Dive was the power of the cars. Despite the fact that every stop has at least one, and often two zones that are safe (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615), it was argued that killing many characters at ~60% is too powerful of a hazard for competitive play. However, it ultimately decided that they would not be a reason to ban the stage, as the existence of safe zones is enough to ensure that smart play on this stage would see very few car kills not resulting from one player outplaying another. Experience backs this up; many confirmed through testing the stage that avoiding the cars is a reasonable expectation. The opportunity for one player to force the other into the cars' path changes the risk-reward balance slightly, but the consensus was that it is not a banworthy change. In fact, some even said that the power of the cars could be seen as a counterpick quality for characters such as Samus, who have trouble killing in general.

The other concern is the lack of ledges on the main platform, and the implication for characters with poor recoveries, and tether recoveries in particular. Ultimately, we decided to label the lack of ledges as a strong counterpick quality instead of a cause for a ban. The justification for this is aided by the fact that the track is present for the majority of the course. It is reasonable to expect characters with poor recoveries to save their double jump and instead use the track to bounce themselves back towards the stage, especially when you consider that it is not uncommon for some characters to take upwards of 30% trying to recover against an edgeguarder even on static stages. Again, testing has shown that the lack of ledges is not as detrimental to balance as one might first think.

Kirk's port town aero dive stage mechanic analysis thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615&highlight=Port+Town+Aero+Dive+Stage+Project

Onett

proposed reason for banning:
Walk-off camping(arguably over-centralizing)

Walk-off camping is the act of camping near the blastzones to force opponents into a high risk high reward situation. The person walk-off camping will often be at a very high percentage (with a stock lead) and the opponent will often be at a very low percent. This causes the walk-off camping player in the event of failure to lose their already endangered stock while the opponent will lose a fresh one.

Opponents of this idea say that walk-off camping is not an effective strategy and that tournament results do not support the theory that it is. The cars are often pointed to as one of the flaws in walk-off camping due to it forcing a walk-off camper to have to jump, sheild, or spot dodge every 13 seconds which is very predictable.

Many view this stage as being very similar to Mario Circuit and ban it under similar justification. A small but non-trivial advocacy exists for this stage (and includes me), arguing that regardless of how Mario Circuit is, this stage is different because the primary "problem" is protected against by the routine cars. Most people do not find this compelling and thus the mainstream position on this stage is in support of a ban. Onett has seen very little tournament play for the entirety of Brawl's lifespan.

Luigi's Mansion

proposed reason for banning:
Light Circle stall(arguably over-centralizing)

The second floor of Luigi's mansion has two segments which are solid and a single segment which is fall through able. It is possible to use these solid parts to preform a lesser version of circle stall to flee for a large period of time. In addition if a stock lead is had the circle becomes even more effective due to the platforms serving as techable surfaces to make large percent damages significantly less threatning

Those opposed to this remind us that you can simply destroy the two stage while pursuing the opponent. Once the stage is destroyed it stays destroyed for about 30 seconds and remains as a pseudo-Final Destination for that time.

<hr>
Luigi's Mansion

Counterpick
Vote: (0-15-8)

There were several issues raised over the legality of Luigi's Mansion. One was the claim that Olimar and Meta Knight are overpowered here. Meta Knight was brought up as being too strong, with Mach Tornado being the claimed overpowered move. Olimar's strength was also raised with heightened camping ability and u-smash chains. Another was that the solid ceilings created a cave-of-life effect, shifting the reason for death from "being hit by a KO move" to "failing to tech a KO move", which tends to lead to variance in results. Lastly, it was argued that running the timer is too easy on Luigi's Mansion. The layout of the mansion is such that faster characters could easily avoid combat while it is standing, and when it is destroyed, the runner needs to avoid combat for only twenty seconds before it respawns.

In response to all of these concerns, strategic breaking of the mansion was raised. Both the cave-of-life and the path for running away become less effective as the mansion is destroyed. While some claimed that attempting to attack the pillars left you unfairly open to attack, it was generally agreed that each player's interactions with the house with respect to the most desirable state for each player led to very strategic gameplay, rather than degenerate gameplay. The player who wants the cave-of-life, or who wants to run away naturally wants the house to stay standing. By destroying the house, the other player can either force a response, or remove the feature that enables the opponent's strategy in the first place. It should also be noted that it is not obvious that Mach Tornado and Olimar's u-smash are overpowered on Luigi's Mansion. Through smart use of teching and get-up options, many claimed that it was very possible to escape any sort of attempt to chain these moves into themselves.

Distant Planet

proposed reason for banning:
camping under the main platform(arguably over-centralizing)
Light Circle stall(arguably over-centralizing)

Camping directly underneath the main platform (the niche you get to by walking away from the walk-off) allows players to become very difficult to approach due to few attacks hitting downwards at an angle. Opposition to this idea say that tournament results do not indicate this to be an issue and the tactic while possibly strong is not broken.

Others claim that due to Distant Planet's one way base platform; players can run away for an excessive amount of time. The stages layout allows time outs to occur to easily and as a result the stage will cause over centralization around time-outs. Opposition to this idea responds with the same argument, saying that tournament results do not indicate this to be the case and the tactic while strong is not broken.

<hr>
Distant Planet

Counterpick
Vote: (0-13-7)

We feel Distant Planet is another stage that was banned without proper justification.

The Bulborb was brought up as a ban reason because it instantly kills players regardless of percent. However, it was generally agreed that the lethal zone is too far removed from the main area to affect play to any significant degree. The creature is more likely to influence the match by providing a platform to recover than by taking a stock from a player.

Another concern was the presence of the walkoff. Although it is a sloped walkoff, some characters such as King Dedede and Pikachu can still use it to score early kills, but we deem it reasonable to expect the player to avoid such situations when playing against these characters, since taking your opponent to the blast zone generally has to be initiated facing the near blast zone while on the slope; this is a very specific situation that can reasonably be avoided.

It was also argued that the stage promotes camping strategies too heavily, with a very strong defensive position at the bottom of the slope and two ledges between which most characters can travel easily. In response, it was noted that the stage itself helps to combat abuse of such features. The rain flushes players out from the bottom of the slope, and the pellets provide even characters without projectiles with a means to combat camping. All in all, when considering that this stage was never given much of a chance to show that camping tactics are indeed overpowered, it was decided that Distant Planet should not be banned.

Rumble Falls

Light Circle stall(arguably over-centralizing)
Overly skewed match-ups(arguably over-centralizing)

Rumble falls is truly a stage that stretches the limits on what is bannable. The stage is often called for banning because of the spike, or the moving screen however neither of these are even semi-legitimate reasons for banning.

The stages large size and multiple platforms allows for a pseudo-hannenbow circle stall. The claim is hinged on the idea that characters with high aerial mobility will have an excessive amount of time to flee from the opponent. Those who disagree with this claim say that the stages "chock point" (the small passage created by the two large stones) and the stage's scrolling forces combat enough for the light circle to not be an issue

Others make the claim that match-ups are overly scewed on this stage due to run away (regardless of it being possible to stop or not). The claim is that those with higher aerial mobility gain far to large an advantage to be fit in competitive play. Those who disagree say that there are no tournament results to show this to be true.

This stage was banned almost instantly due to perceived similarity to known bad melee stage Icicle Mountain. There's some advocacy for this stage that argues it's really misunderstood, but it usually doesn't get far. What arguments have been made against this stage beyond "it's just awful" usually focus on how large of an impact the speed up event has on matches and how it can be very unfair to low mobility characters (while no one is forced to die to the stage alone, it does require most of your efforts to avoid and can leave a low mobility character open to exploitation by a high mobility one).

Skyworld

reason for banning:
excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)

This stage was legal in some places for a non-trivial chunk of time, and the main reason most came to favor a ban was a feeling that this stage was just too powerful of a counterpick, especially for the already dangerous Meta Knight. A lot of matchups do indeed become really bad on this stage from what I've seen. There were also arguments about unreasonably long survival being possible on this stage by abusing the large number of techable surfaces (and how this produces degenerate gameplay). Very few people would still defend this stage.

[/Collapse]

stages which meet ban criteria

[Collapse=Corneria, Hanenbow, Mario Circuit, Big Blue, 75m, Green Hill Zone, New Pork City, Temple, Shadow Moses, Summit, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2, Bridge of Eldin, WarioWare, Spear Pillar, Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1/2]

Corneria

reason for banning:
camping on the right side of the stage(over-centralizing)

There are very many differing arguments for why Corneria is banned. This stage was legal everywhere early in the game's lifespan, and at some point everyone seemed to decide for different reasons the stage was awful and needed banning. Some thought the near blast zones were unreasonable. Others thought the permanent wall allowed too much abuse. Still others thought ledge stalling on the fin was unreasonably good. Even others thought that the more general tactic of camping the lower area was just too powerful, and others pointed out potential (though unproven) stalling tactics involving the gun on the front of the ship. Some didn't worry about any of these tactics but simply felt this stage as a counterpick stage gave too big of advantages in too many matchups to be legal. The fact that very few serious tournament players enjoy the gameplay implications of this stage in general, fair or not, does not help this stage, nor does the fact that the arwings are basically completely random but extremely central to powerful tactics for Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, and Lucas. Even most "liberal" stage people seem to believe this stage being banned was the right choice, though no one seems to agree on a reason. Personally, I'm not really sold on this stage needing to be banned, but I can't deny that this is not a very fun stage to play on even if it does kinda rule for my character (Mr. Game & Watch)

Hanenbow

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

This stage allows for essentially unbeatable run-away by high aerial mobility characters. Imagine a big "loop" around the main physical platforms that a character such as Wario might travel along. There's no way for lower mobility characters to ever reach him. Also, gameplay on this stage is of generally low quality; in match-ups in which run-away is not effective, players often resort to camping extremely difficult to approach positions which are plentiful on this stage. Lastly, the character balance on this stage is very poor; ground based characters such as Ice Climbers are borderline worthless.

The camp that wanted this stage legal argued that the run away wasn't as good as some people were saying, that the gameplay was just different with different not being bad, and that in general the gameplay implications of this stage were not explored. I do agree with them in the sense that this stage saw very little tournament play before being essentially universally banned, but I disagree with their assessment that this stage works out. Personal play on this stage has verified for me that banning this stage was the correct choice; it just has too many problems, many of which lead to completely broken and degenerate gameplay. Very few advocate for this stage today, and the votes in support of this stage as a counterpick are largely reflective of the older time period in which the 2.0 stage list was made.

Mario Circuit

reason for banning:
excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)
walk-off camping(arguably over-centralizing)

The easily accessible walk-off is the main unpopular feature of this stage. Several death combos are possible off it, most notably King Dedede's chaingrab against 2/3 of the cast. There is also an assertion by some that walk-offs allow generally unreasonable to defeat stationary camping strategies near them (wait near the walk-off, punish attempts to approach with a very quick to kill bthrow), but there is very far from a consensus on the power of that tactic (I personally don't think it's a good tactic). Some also argue that this stage is strongly enabling of general run-away which is too powerful, and a small minority feel the karts are too disruptive of gameplay to be acceptable.

I personally feel as though this stage is at worst degenerate in a small number of matchups, am unsure in general that it needs to be banned, and often wonder if stages like this are unfortunate victims of a stage legality system that pretty much requires stages to be at least somewhat close to fair in every matchup (as in just being that way in the vast majority of matchups isn't enough). This stage has been banned virtually everywhere for quite a while and has little tournament play.

Big Blue

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

In all honesty, the main reason Big Blue is banned is probably because it's too crazy and different for most people. There are some concrete arguments though. One is that run-away is simply too powerful here, particularly when the upper platforms are used intelligently. Another is that the track is simply too dangerous of a "hazard" and that the gameplay that revolves around it (such as the essentially instant death for missing techs or being pushed off a car while shielding) is all around degenerate. Another argument is that this stage is unfair in a variety of matchups. Another argument yet is that independent of the fairness of this stage, it's simply too much of an outlier. This goes back to the initial idea, but the argument here (as opposed to thoughtless dismissal) is that playing on Big Blue is basically playing a completely different game and that tournaments shouldn't be testing this. A small number of people think this stage wasn't given a fair chance, but the limits on advocacy for this stage are found in people who just want to explore it more. I don't think anyone is solidly convinced this stage is fair.

75m

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

In all honestly, this is actually a less bad version of Hanenbow, but most people look at the visual craziness of this stage and dismiss it instantly. That being said, it shares many of the problems of Hanenbow in powerful run-away, extremely powerful defensive positions, and extremely skewed matchups. Despite the lack of careful examination and playtesting that went into this ban, almost all who consider stage policy seriously would agree it was the correct choice.

Green Hill Zone

reason for banning:
excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)
walk-off camping(arguably over-centralizing)

This stage was legal in quite a few places for quite a while actually. Most arguments about this stage are similar in form to the Mario Circuit arguments. Very few players support this stage.

New Pork City

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

This stage allows infinite run-away in essentially every non-ditto matchup, and even if you attempt to fight "for real", this stage's geography and size allow for absurd survival that really diminishes the consistency of the game. There are doubtless more problems that could be found on a careful examination, but the immediately obvious problems are so overwhelming that banning is the only sane solution.

Temple

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

See new pork city.

Shadow Moses Island

reason for banning:
excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)

This stage is generally agreed to be broken for two reasons. One is that the walls or walk-offs (depending on whether walls are broken or not) allow certain character such as King Dedede to dominate too much in too many matchups with exploitable death combos and infinites. Another is that the structure of this stage aids survival too much and that characters who are generally poor at killing upward are at too extreme of a disadvantage here. There is little to no serious advocacy for this stage these days, though quite a while ago a small number of people defended it.

Summit

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

Much as with Corneria, almost everyone seems to have their own reason they think Summit should be banned, but the reasons tend to be much scarier sounding than Corneria's. The loop structure imposed by the giant block of ice is one big factor that leads a lot of people (including me) to immediately support a ban. Some others think the lack of grabbable ledges is too unfair to some characters. Some others yet think the presence of an instant death hazard as a legitimate threat is simply too bad to allow. There are some other reasons yet people have used, but it should be clear no one wants this stage legal with enough reasons that I'm sure almost anyone serious can find one he supports.

Mario Bros.

reason for banning:
excessive randomness (marginalizing of skill)
Circle stall(over-centralizing)
walk-off camping(arguably over-centralizing)

Uh, this stage is maybe the worst in the game. The structure allows essentially infinite survival, loop running, and walk-off abuse. Amazingly, none of this actually matters in the games that happen here due to extraordinarily powerful stage hazards. Matches here are almost all about throwing the turtles and crabs at each other, and match outcomes are extremely unpredictable due to the nature of the gameplay. I have never seen anyone competent advocate this stage for legality, and I doubt I ever will.

Flat Zone 2

reason for banning:
excessive randomness (marginalizing of skill)
walk-off camping(arguably over-centralizing)

This stage isn't quite a total pariah, but it's pretty close. Most people saw the similarity to known bad melee stage Flat Zone and were done with it. However, it has seen some actual argument in the distant past. Some others have Mario Circuit style arguments for why it should be banned (run-away isn't powerful here but the rest holds). Some feel the hazards are just too powerful for consistent matches to occur here, especially the lion tamers. Some feel this stage skews matchups too much and is therefore imbalanced, pointing out the low ceiling and disruptive geography and how it can give some characters strong advantages. No one I know of today supports this stage for legality.

Bridge of Eldin

reason for banning:
walk-off camping(over-centralizing)
enhanced run-away/camping(over-centralizing)
excessive skewed match-ups(over-centralizing)

It's mostly about the camping and walk-offs. At the time it was banned, there was some argument alongside the ban saying that it wasn't believed in matchups not involving cgs that matches were likely to end in under 8 minutes on this stage due to the sheer size. The way it's so big and so flat also makes it potentially a very powerful counterpick stage, arguably too powerful, for some characters even if they don't have abuses such as walk-off death combos; I remember the term "Bridge of Falco" being used. This stage currently has essentially zero support for legality.

WarioWare Inc.

reason for banning:
excessive randomness (marginalizing of skill)

It's all about the random minigame rewards. You can't expect consistent match results when we both win a game, one of us gets a star which is an absurdly powerful temporary advantage (very likely you claim a stock with it!), and the other gets either nothing or basically nothing (4% healing).

Spear Pillar

reason for banning:
Circle stall(over-centralizing)

I've seen some arguments in favor of it a long time ago, but most people have wised up. The fact that it very obviously allows trivial loop running is the biggest factor. Some also argue the hazards are too disruptive, but those arguments usually don't last long as we all come together and remember the loop.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

reason for banning:
walk-off camping(over-centralizing)

This stage used to have some support, but it never got far. The omnipresent walls and walk-offs, the uncomfortably fast general scrolling speed, and the incredibly low ceiling make almost everyone feel this stage is not fair on a variety of levels. What support this stage used to have is basically completely dried up.

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

reason for banning:
walk-off camping(over-centralizing)

This stage is basically 1-1 in terms of problems plus ridiculous survival, run-away potential, and absurdly abusive vertical kills on the upper part (a lot of characters can kill at 0% with uthrows!). There has never been any support whatsoever for this stage being legal.

[/Collapse]

 

[Raziek]

Good post, I approve.

 

[sunshade]

If anyone is willing to write up an analysis of a stage to describe why it is banned please let me know. I will gladly add it into the OP.

If you would prefer to write up an argument for why a stage should be legal that is also fine I will add it into the OP as well.

Added information on the near universally banned stages. Thanks to AA!

 

[shadowzac]

can i also state for mushroomy kingdom 2,that if one high jumping character breaks the ceiling,they can avoid danger the whole stage while lower jumibg characters have to naviate a maze

 

[T-block]

Are we trying to be as unbiased as possible here? I might do Pictochat/PS2 later.

 

[#HBC | J]

I would love to help with this ;D

Aw T-block stealing PS2 ;_; oh well i'll most likely do brinstar and some other stages.

 

[GwJ]

can i also state for mushroomy kingdom 2,that if one high jumping character breaks the ceiling,they can avoid danger the whole stage while lower jumibg characters have to naviate a maze

Or the lower jumper can simply attack the higher jump and KO them at like 20 percent...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Excellent job, this is a fantastic and unbiased resource.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Excellent comment, it's fantastic and gives you a good image.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Cool. I was waiting for a SSBM: Stage Banisment and Reasoning type thread to come up for Brawl.
Thank you.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yea ill try and write up stuff for the Large Advantage for ya Sunshade.

 

[Remzi]

I'd put PS2 in the second group.... good thread though.

 

[UberMario]

Nice post, I do disagree with 75m being a "better" Hanenbow though, the ladders, flames, and DK's trampoline rampage destroy all but the most focused gameplay, plus it has a walkoff . . . . . it's even more unplayable [in the normal sense] than Mario Bros, and at least in Mario Bros it's easy to fight the way the stage was intended (not the way people want to fight seriously, but it sure is heck of a fun time when both players just want to knock the other player senseless with crabs and shells)
At least you can fight on Hanenbow.

 

[T-block]

go for it jbandit

 

[#HBC | J]

nooooooooo lol i was only kidding

I'd much rather have the others. PS2 is just a cool cp of mine.

 

[sunshade]

Are we trying to be as unbiased as possible here? I might do Pictochat/PS2 later.

You can be either. If you want to make an argument for a specific side you may go ahead, I or someone else will write a counter opinion to it or you may try and make a neutral statement of the stage.

I would love to help with this ;D

Aw T-block stealing PS2 ;_; oh well i'll most likely do brinstar and some other stages.

More than one person can add to each stage! If you both make good posts I will add both, however thats not to say that I would not appreciate your opinion on brinstar/other stages as well.

I'd put PS2 in the second group.... good thread though.

Why?

 

[T-block]

Because it's actually banned in a lot of places lol

 

[sunshade]

Updated and reformatted the OP. Added in my input for all stages which can arguably be banned.

Why are Luigi's mansion and Yoshi's Island Melee banned?

I have not heard any compelling arguments for either and I don't want to write anything in without input from others.

Because it's actually banned in a lot of places lol

For even semi-legitimate reason?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For even semi-legitimate reason?

"It ****s with my physics!" (no)

Luigi's mainsion is banned due to:
-Overcentralizing strategy (MK's tornado becomes the best move ever)
-Cave of Life effects (tech that first floor)
AFAIK. It's pretty gay....

YI:M is banned for a walkoff (almost 2, tbh-that left side might as well be one), the blocks in the center being very stupid, a cave of life effect on the upper blocks, and having way too small blastzones. I think.

 

[Blakmane]

The glitch info thread at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214619 claims that the pictochat drawings come regularly at 13 1/3 second intervals, while this thread claims it is on a random 10-14 second timer.

Which one is correct?

 

[sunshade]

This one is.

The 13 second rule was disproven in a link (I hope I remembered to) place in the Pictochat section. You can also watch just about any video of pictochat or use your own Nintendo and notice that its not correct.

 

[ErikG]

I think Pokemon Stadium 2 and Jungle Japes should be moved to the second category. Many regions ban them, and it would be nice to have someone write up the argument for why a region would ban one of those.

 

[sunshade]

I think Pokemon Stadium 2 and Jungle Japes should be moved to the second category. Many regions ban them, and it would be nice to have someone write up the argument for why a region would ban one of those.

I honestly cannot think of a single reason to ban Pokemon Stadium 2. Most tournament officials banned the stage because of public dislike from what I understand and personal dislike is not a ban criteria.

I will place jungle japes in the second category once I am given some reasons for its banning. I thought about placing it into the second category on the grounds of overly skewed match-ups. I however don't know who the stage heavily boosts besides Falco and I am hesitant to place it into the second section just because of him.

 

[T-block]

Pictochat thread here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=270499

I have never seen a legitimate reason to ban PS2 either, but your previous label of "generally legal everywhere" or something like that was misleading, because PS2 wasn't =P Now that you've changed them, I'm fine with where it is though.

 

[ErikG]

JJ's large boundaries severely hurts characters who are lacking in the killing department while boosting characters who can survive for a long time like Snake, King DDD, and Donkey Kong. By that very nature, matches last a lot longer on that stage.

 

[T-block]

What are you trying to say? I hope those aren't ban reasons.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Luigi's mainsion is banned due to:
-Overcentralizing strategy (MK's tornado becomes the best move ever)
-Cave of Life effects (tech that first floor)
-DK and to a lessor extent G&W have the potential to live to flat out insane %s as long as there is a solid roof above them, they can tech properly, and momentum cancel in time with their respective moves
AFAIK. It's pretty gay....

Add'd.

And where is PS2 banned? O_o It's legal in Texas, and MLG...I really don't see any reason for it to be banned other than "gay stage" johns from those who don't know how to play on it.

 

[sunshade]

JJ's large boundaries severely hurts characters who are lacking in the killing department while boosting characters who can survive for a long time like Snake, King DDD, and Donkey Kong. By that very nature, matches last a lot longer on that stage.

Stages do have a tendency to affect how characters preform. I am glad that is understood, however does Jungle Japes go far enough to question its legality because of it?

You are saying the stage is good for Snake, King dedede, and Donkey Kong, however is it so good for them that it is over-centralizing?

 

[PK-ow!]

PS2 is banned in my area.

And it really is just "gay stage".

It doesn't even have as many walls as PS1. But all they see is air physics. And either I can't get people to even talk about it, or that person is a closet trolling ******* who badmouths me for being a scrub for suggesting the idea that we might possibly consider reviewing the matter of PS2 being a potential stage, that I should crawl back home, give up Brawl, and L2P fighter games.

The moment MLG passed, they went right back to the former stage rules.

...
wow, y'know this hate is probably why I'm not so eager to get down to every event with them...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dude, get them in here. I like slapping around people too stupid to allow CPs to be CPs. Wind =/= Ban unless you're too lazy to bother figuring out how to fight in the wind area. And then you shouldn't be playing a game where the stages effect the battle, and need to play something else like TvC.

 

[T-block]

Aw sorry to hear that PK-ow!

They decided to troll all of WC Canada because of the liberal stage list I had in my region. I know how close-minded a lot of them are =(

Move to Alberta ;D

 

[Raziek]

Nova Scotia is pretty chill too, we've got almost everything legal, I'm just still working on getting Port Town and Green Greens on our standard list. xD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nova Scotia is pretty chill too, we've got almost everything legal, I'm just still working on getting Port Town and Green Greens on our standard list. xD

Green Greens is an easy one.

"It's legal at freaking MLG for crying out loud. You know, the tournaments with lots of money in them?"

 

[Raziek]

Green Greens is an easy one.

"It's legal at freaking MLG for crying out loud. You know, the tournaments with lots of money in them?"

Tried that. Got, "But the bombs are too random......."

*Explains how not random Green Greens is*

"But.... the bombs......"

*facedesk*

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Try this topic on them.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243289

 

[Raziek]

^ Already did. Stubborn/10

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Kick them in the balls, host your own tournament with Green Greens legal, offer a larger pot than the other tournaments, and CP with Green Greens every single time? >_> <_<

 

[Pharrox]

I too am curious about seeing a write-up on Japes. I'll be hosting an upcoming tournament, and I'm receiving a little resistance for the decision to include Japes on the stage list. I see a lot of major tournaments banning it these days (MLG and Apex), but I have yet to see any intelligent discussion covering what makes it more qualified for a ban than some of the other generally accepted stages.

I know that there was mention that the BBR had input in making the rules for MLG, and that some of the MLG rules were likely coming from the upcoming ruleset. Do they know something I don't, or is is it mostly just a case of "other people are banning it so we should ban it too"?

 

[hugoj]

^ Agreed. Lol.

 

[ook]

I'd say move Rumble Falls into the 2nd category. Just looking through the spoiler tags, it is the ONLY stage in either category that does not have a green-colored clear reason for banning.

You could argue that it has overly intrusive hazards (the spikes, the "speed up" segments) marginalizing player skill, but that would put it into the 2nd category.