GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
But WHEN will they spawn where you PREDICT they will spawn?You can tell where the bombs land.
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But WHEN will they spawn where you PREDICT they will spawn?You can tell where the bombs land.
You can use this same argument for tripping. WHEN will you trip where you PREDICT you will trip? I can predict I'm gonna trip whenever I'll edgehog some random guy, but the fact that I trip or don't trip is completely random... Much more random than a controlled element like Sudden Death, where the bombs start spawning indefinitely after a set amount of time only during Sudden Death... Tripping is always active, and you always trip randomly.But WHEN will they spawn where you PREDICT they will spawn?
Seems like Sudden Death IS played out in tourneys and is supported by the SBR-B, even with all that random bomb stuff... So why is it that tripping isn't random for you?Resolving Ties: Any games ending in time running out should always be decided by stock, and then percents. If percents are the same or both players die simultaneously, there will be a 1 stock overttime or the sudden death will be played out.
You really don't know what you're defending.Tripping does not make anyone lose matches, IT'S THEIR FAULT.
When I say it is the player's fault, I mean that they should know the risk of dashing and dashing a lot is begging to trip.You really don't know what you're defending.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw
Watch that video posted by dphanna.
He's using 1 controller to use 3 Marios.
The Blue one trips twice. The Red one trips once. The White one doesn't trip. They all are doing the same thing at the same exact time. He has no control over when he trips. It's not the players fault. AT ALL.
While tripping doesn't affect me much (main MK and use Jiggs in low tiers) I still think it's a stupid addition to this game, even when it does happen to my opponent.
I swear if it wern't for the fact you had so many posts I would swear all your doing is trolling.When I say it is the player's fault, I mean that they should know the risk of dashing and dashing a lot is begging to trip.
I suggest characters who apparently NEED to dash should dash less, and Diddy Kong does not need to worry about tripping so much. Of all of the Diddy's I have played they never tripped NEAR me w/o a banana. So for all of you that use a character like Oli or Yoshi (...), if tripping is that big of a deal for you then use a better character.
Not quite sure on this one1) How specifically is it legal?
If you're worrying about your TO cheating, then you wouldn't want to go to their tournaments anyway. It's easy to just take everyone's SD card and put your codeset with only tripping on.2) What about sneaking in extra modifications with the no tripping rule, such as MK doing less damage or Falco's lasers doing 1% more or not decaying? I heard from pretty reliable sources that you can't check every code you add on, and even if you could, there's a possibility for TOs to cheat and add them anyway for their own benefit, or possibly overlook a Wii that already has those hacks.
No, it will not be on your wii forever. You don't even have to use Homebrew, you can use stacksmash to load through stage builder.3) Will your Brawl forever have no tripping if you have it modified, or do you have to open Brawl through Homebrew or whatever.
(this brings up another concern about using texture hacked wiis for tournament as they could have those slight codeset changes as well)
I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.1) How specifically is it legal?
Why?You can't compare Random Stage Select and Super Sudden Death as Random Stages can be chosen before the match where as there is no on or off switch for super sudden death.
and to compare Super Sudden Death with Hyrule???? That's a straw man argument
Lol.hurrr durrr
its amazing, coz its yet ANOTHER point to add to the list of things brawl needs to ban/limit to be viable, and you will still get idiots who say play the game as it is, dont ban anything. Because other fighting game communities never ban anything (getting at d3 infinite CG here), therefore brawl shouldnt, because its a real fighting game.
a real fighting game, which just like all other 'pure' fighting games, must
ban all items
ban 3/4 of the stages
only be played in 1 game mode
have limitations placed on certain playstyles
a different system than what the game intended for time-outs
Its truly hilarious the deluded purist mentality you get from some people when it comes to banning the likes of D3's infinite, limiting ledgegrab rules and in this case, with tripping, yet the same people advocate the banning of so much more, as if their interpreatation of what needs to be banned or not is worth more because it comes directly from a purist mentality.
get that purist **** outa here.
Fact is the game is butchered down to a tiny portion of what was programmed into it, there can be no argument of playing the game as it is anymore, its CLEARLY doesnt work.
And you can get venues that don't care and will do illegal things... how is this unexpected?Brawl+ says hi. No TO has been sued over Brawl+. This is a non-issue. Saying, well it could happen, is an extremely weak argument. How many tournaments using mods have been run? Enough to know this isn't happening.
Whether MLG supports this is a little different as they are a corporate entity. Individual TOs... there is no evidence at all that there is any legal or technical risk of using mods.
This isn't just an American issue.I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.
So basically, if you can run around with an Action Replay/GameShark/Game Genie, you sure as hell can run around with Smash Stack on an SD Card.
Remind me again why other countries can't accept (or at least determine the validity of before rejecting) American legal precedent?This isn't just an American issue.
I'd be wrong if I said that it didn't happen. However, that doesn't mean that our laws apply over there is completely wrong. This only happens when the legal language is very similar and the country has a tendency to follow American legal precedent, and very rarely otherwise.Remind me again why other countries can't accept (or at least determine the validity of before rejecting) American legal precedent?
The point is, the precedent is there. At least for Nintendo of America, they don't have a case going for them in the (highly unlikely and unprecedented, don't forget) occasion that they they attempt to shut someone down for running a code that turns the random chance of tripping down to 0%.
Ok, I haven't read past this post, but there's something that MK26 is missing, and it's REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT from an American legal standpoint...I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.
So basically, if you can run around with an Action Replay/GameShark/Game Genie, you sure as hell can run around with Smash Stack on an SD Card.
Ok I have a question for you then.Nintendo's Wii EULA specifically states that you cannot tamper with their code during use of the system (more specifically, that you can't use the system to run code not authorized by Nintendo), and that failure to comply, from a legal standpoint, is breach of contract (because EULAs are legally binding contracts), for which Nintendo reserves the right to seek damages.
So, MK26... it is illegal to hack Brawl because the EULA says we can't run unauthorized code, and Brawl hacks have not been authorized by Nintendo; the case you cited is a moot point because EULAs didn't exist then. This is an entirely different matter.
If we remove tripping with this, (not that I'm saying we will because I'd rather just use Stack Smash or the Homebrew Channel) is it still illegal? If not, why not? And if it is still illegal, why will they sell something illegal in places like Target and Walmart (not to mention near Nintendo products)?Powersaves contain game-busting features that let you play your game in ways the programmers never imagined. Depending on the game, you might start with Infinite Lives, Infinite Health, All Characters Unlocked, Every Item - the possibilities are endless.
All these things can also be done using Gecko OS.
Yeah, I was unaware that copyright law was so drastically diffferent between our countries...I'd be wrong if I said that it didn't happen. However, that doesn't mean that our laws apply over there is completely wrong. This only happens when the legal language is very similar and the country has a tendency to follow American legal precedent, and very rarely otherwise.
Foreign copyright law in terms of what qualifies as "Fair Use"... no.
But the legal concern is more an issue for individual TOs, Americans have clear case law for doing it (I assume, I've got a legal background so I'll read the case more carefully), but people in foreign countries, given how Draconian copyright infringement enforcement usually is, a lot of venues simply won't wanna take the chance.
Venues are far more vulnerable then individual players and TOs.
Just out of curiousity: I started hacking in Feb 09, and I turned off my WiiConnect24 at that time out of fear of some ninja patch by Ninty that would delete my homebrew. I see that the Wii EULA was last updated in March of that same year, which, according to Google, was the update that added the "no unauthorized modifications" clause. Thus, I haven't complied with anything that says I'm not allowed to hack my Wii. How could I have breached a contract I haven't agreed to?Ok, I haven't read past this post, but there's something that MK26 is missing, and it's REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT from an American legal standpoint...
...and that's the concept of "implied agreement".
For instance, I walk into a Chili's and go to the bar. I order some chips, which costs 1.99$. I then order a margarita... but wait! That margarita doesn't have a price next to it! Sweet, I just stumbled onto "free margarita day". I eat my chips and order 5 more drinks, and before the waitress can get me my bill, I drop a 5$ on the table and left.
I get arrested for failure to pay. I argue, "But wait! There was no price on the drinks! How was I to know I was supposed to pay for them?" The legal precedent of "implied agreement". When you walk into an establishment, it is implied that you must pay for the goods that you purchase; everyone knows that you must pay, and so no one can get away with not paying, because it's implied that you know to do so, regardless of any attempts of misleading by the establishment (such as not pricing an item).
How does this apply to hacking Brawl?
Easy. The EULA. End User License Agreements (or EULAs) have been used for years to force users to agree (implicitly, by their very use of the product) to a set of non-negotiable terms before, during, and after product use. This practice is VERY loosely regulated, from a legal precedent standpoint. This is why everything you do on a computing device these days has a EULA, and why they all start by saying "By using this product, the end user agrees to the following terms:"... because the concept of "implied agreement" allows them to put anything that is technically legal past that point, and it's implied that you read and agree to all terms... or else you wouldn't be using the product.
Nintendo's Wii EULA specifically states that you cannot tamper with their code during use of the system (more specifically, that you can't use the system to run code not authorized by Nintendo), and that failure to comply, from a legal standpoint, is breach of contract (because EULAs are legally binding contracts), for which Nintendo reserves the right to seek damages.
That's the law, people. Sucks, but that's what happened because we didn't ***** enough when EULAs first came out.
So, MK26... it is illegal to hack Brawl because the EULA says we can't run unauthorized code, and Brawl hacks have not been authorized by Nintendo; the case you cited is a moot point because EULAs didn't exist then. This is an entirely different matter.
Again, this is more an issue for venues, especially if the venue is part of a larger organization due to the risk of the parent company getting sued.Yeah, I was unaware that copyright law was so drastically diffferent between our countries...
As for 'risk'...I'm not gonna go there. The most I can say on the topic is laugh at the possibility that Ninty would crack down on a small bunch of teens and twenty-somethings that want to enjoy a game they've bought.
What AlphaZealot said.
IC's can kind of protect themselves, but if your opponent gets on you immediately then that trip is just as deadly.
This, I'm not too sure about. It could be argued two ways in court:Just out of curiousity: I started hacking in Feb 09, and I turned off my WiiConnect24 at that time out of fear of some ninja patch by Ninty that would delete my homebrew. I see that the Wii EULA was last updated in March of that same year, which, according to Google, was the update that added the "no unauthorized modifications" clause. Thus, I haven't complied with anything that says I'm not allowed to hack my Wii. How could I have breached a contract I haven't agreed to?
Actually, most people don't understand this, but you DON'T pay for the software, you technically (and legally) pay for a disc containing data, and a LICENSE FROM NINTENDO to use the software according to their terms. It's the same with music; you don't buy a song, you buy a data file with sound data and a license to play those sounds under certain terms; that's why DRM can do ALL SORTS of stupid stuff to your music library, including locking out of your own music and TOTAL AUTOMATIC DELETION of songs if the computer even detects possible infringement. According to the DMCA, that even applies to music you've bought, but lost due to hard drive failure. If you attempt to recover that music without buying another "license", you're a pirate, by law.And what kind of damages could Nintendo seek? I've legally paid for all of the software from Nintendo that I use, and I assume the same is true for most of the people here. I just don't get what they think banning hacking will do for them.
See above. It really is grey area, though.And that's still ignoring the possibility that the EULA could be considered illegal if put to the test in court...Wikipedia says it's been done before...
Actually, no. Legally, you didn't buy it... You bought a physical Wii and a license from Nintendo to use it and the provided OS as they say. You own the physical Wii, maybe, but the data contained inside, and anything you run on it, is simply licensed to you for private use under Nintendo's terms. As such, they still legally own the Wii OS on your system, and can (legally) brick it if they deem the terms of your license broken.And just for the record, the part of the EULA pertaining to hacking says:
. . . I am not allowed to use anything not licensed by Nintendo with the Wii
. . . . . . Such use may be illegal (note "may")
. . . . . . Such use voids my warranty (y'know, the one that's expired)
. . . . . . Such use is a breach of the agreement (redundant)
. . . . . . Such use may lead to personal injury (lol)
. . . . . . Such use may damage the Wii or the Wii Network Service (Ninty bricked more Wiis with that fail update a while back than have ever been bricked by homebrew)
. . . Ninty is not responsible for damage caused by unlicensed stuff (why would they be?)
. . . Ninty can try to disable/delete the unauthorized stuff (tried and failed how many times now?)
. . . Ninty may brick your Wii if they catch you (WTF?!)
That last one is the big one. How the hell can that possibly be legal?!? As far as I'm concerned, I (read:Santamy parents) paid for the d*mn thing, I can do whatever the f*ck I want with it. EULA be d*mned.
To avoid derailing this thread further, I won't go into specific details but there ARE fair use provisions in US copyright law which substantially mitigate a number of these issues.This, I'm not too sure about. It could be argued two ways in court:
For: Because you technically didn't receive the updated EULA, you never agreed to it yourself, and thus any changes made to it wouldn't be reflective of YOUR particular end user agreement with Nintendo.
Against: "Implicit agreement", by definition, relies on implicit understandings, and thus any knowledge of the changed EULA on your part implies an agreement to it, or an admission to breaking Nintendo's (intended) EULA. Much like my Chili's example, you knew the EULA had been changed, knew the changes, and knew the intention was for them to apply to all users, but attempted to leave yourself plausible deniability. Thus, the EULA stands up in court because you knew it had changed, but still disobeyed anyway.
As for which one the courts might go with... well, I'm sure the MPAA and RIAA cases have shown you that courts OVERWHELMINGLY side with corporations when it comes to potential IP infringement.
Actually, most people don't understand this, but you DON'T pay for the software, you technically (and legally) pay for a disc containing data, and a LICENSE FROM NINTENDO to use the software according to their terms. It's the same with music; you don't buy a song, you buy a data file with sound data and a license to play those sounds under certain terms; that's why DRM can do ALL SORTS of stupid stuff to your music library, including locking out of your own music and TOTAL AUTOMATIC DELETION of songs if the computer even detects possible infringement. According to the DMCA, that even applies to music you've bought, but lost due to hard drive failure. If you attempt to recover that music without buying another "license", you're a pirate, by law.
See above. It really is grey area, though.
Actually, no. Legally, you didn't buy it... You bought a physical Wii and a license from Nintendo to use it and the provided OS as they say. You own the physical Wii, maybe, but the data contained inside, and anything you run on it, is simply licensed to you for private use under Nintendo's terms. As such, they still legally own the Wii OS on your system, and can (legally) brick it if they deem the terms of your license broken.
Really, people need to go read AltF4's copyright law thread in the Debate Hall on this... it's some f*ucked up stuff.
Nintendo is aware of brawl hacking. They aren't blind or deaf, and I'm sure someone in the company actually cares enough to have noticed.4. Nintendo probably already knows all of this and really doesn't care and that's why people haven't been sued yet.(What they REALLY REALLY care about is people stealing their games)
Counter Counter Argument:Argument:
We should play the game the way it was meant to be played which means no tripping!
Counter Argument:
If this is the case then how far should we take it? The default settings for Brawl are 2 minutes with medium items on. All stages are in the random select Cue. If we were to really play it the way it was meant to be played shouldn't items, including smash balls, be on? Shouldn't every stage be legal? Of course not. We as players have discovered what's the most balanced way to play this game despite what the developers wanted. So why not remove an insanely stupid mechanic that happens by chance?
Exists. Just FYI.Devils advocate:
What if we found a code that removes MK's Infinite Cape. Should that be added as well?
Note: I have not read the thread, only the OP
*sigh* You're missing a big part of the problem with this GIMR that you hardly touched on in the OP. I'll get to that in a minute.
Before adding my own part of the conversation to this, let me refute something I found very easy to counter from the OP:
Counter Counter Argument:
Playing the game with 3 stocks, 8 minute time limit, no items, and only certain stages is still playing the game the way it is meant to be played. Saying that the game is meant to be played with 2 minute time because that's what the first settings you see are doesn't really make any sense imo. The settings are there to be changed. Players are free to change these settings to play the game differently, but still within the realm of possibility that the developers intended. There is however, no option for turning tripping off. By hacking the game you are indeed not playing it how the developers intended. You can take a Wii and Brawl with 0 hacks on it and have a perfectly good tournament set up using the options in game.
And now with a few things I can add myself...
How far is too far?:
Ok, so we add no tripping, and that's it? Do we make other standard changes as well? Sure people could say things like Infinite Replays, but that isn't game changing unlike tripping. Tripping is a random element. You made it clear in the OP that the fact that it is a random element can completely change situations unintentionally.
Lets try something else...
How about we remove Peach's chance to pull bombs? I mention this move instead of others because people don't use her down B to pull bombs, they use it to use turnips, however the extremely rare chance at pulling a bomb can completely change the game. This is different from a move like GaW's 9 hammer where people use the hammer with full intention of getting a 9. Do people dash to purposely trip? No, the tripping is an unintentional effect that occurred instead of what was intended.
Devils advocate:
What if we found a code that removes MK's Infinite Cape. Should that be added as well?
Why only most nationals and regionals?:
Why only these classifications? Why not all tournaments? It's all or nothing for me imo. What if I play Vex at a national tournament with tripping off and beat him, yet a week prior I played him at a local with tripping enabled and lost because of tripping at a critical moment? Same set happened, the environment doesn't matter. DSO 10 had in the ballpark of about 20 entrants or so, maybe even less like 16. A local tournament right? The top 3 placings were Ally ADHD and Atomsk. Sounds like a national now eh? Local = regional = national. Smash = smash.
Security and time metrics:
Codes are loaded by the use of a gct file for Brawl. A gct file is essentially a file with a bunch of hex data and nothing else. There is no way to 100% reverse engineer a gct file to find out what codes are in it (though you can partially do so with my program GCTEdit! *shameless plug*) so people can put in codes besides no tripping that are minuscule enough that people won't notice it and yet it could give them a bit of an unfair advantage.
To avoid potential problems the TO has to be the one to load his or her own codeset on every single Wii. Without questioning the trustworthiness of the TO, this adds a lot of time to setting up a tournament, and for anyone that has hosted an underground (as in not official/MLG, aka every single Brawl tourney so far essentially) you should know that this is extremely complicated with how people bring setups. People bring their Wiis, find an open TV, and set them up. This is why at every tournament now we see TVs with ridiculous textures on all the time because the owner of that Wii has it set up with them because they like them. The process would have to be changed to prevent people from setting up their Wiis and having the TO(s) do it for them which takes their attention away from other work that needs to be done. Also what if a setup gets turned off by accident or the system freezes? Gotta have the TO drop everything and go set it up. And what if someone restarts the system with their codes while the TO isn't looking? It would be too easy to get away with.
Additional note: Loading the game with the Smash Stack method certainly does add a noticeable amount of time to the set up process and not to mention you can not have any custom stages saved on the Wii so you can do it. We would then have to erase everyone's custom stages on a Wii that needs to use Smash Stack. How are you going to explain to people that want to bring a set up that all of that data will be erased? Fun stuff, I wouldn't want to bring my Wii to a tourney in that situation.
You are still hacking the game:
To have no tripping involves hacking the game. Hacking the game is something that Nintendo frowns upon OBVIOUSLY. Game companies do everything they can to thwart all kinds of various homebrew applications to do anything that wasn't originally intentioned. If we want the game to be taken seriously and perhaps eventually have Nintendo take notice (what a pipe dream eh?), stuff like this can not be done. Also what if the Smash Stack loader through the stage builder becomes blocked? Then what do we do? It's possible that it could be blocked.
I like how Chibo's super-post was quoted in its entirety, and all you could say back was this.ugh, that was my weakest and quickest written point and yet everyone seems to only address that one.
And to everyone who says you could get sued I'd like to tell you that this would be virtually impossible for multiple reasons:
1. Even if a Nintendo rep was there, he or she would most likely no nothing about Brawl's tripping mechanics, thus not notice a thing.
2. Even if they did notice they would have no way to prove it because the rep would not be allowed to just take the persons system from the Venue because that would be stealing.
3. Since it's loaded through the SD card and Home brew doesn't exist on the system you could straight up tell the Nintendo rep that you were playing with hacks on. Why? Becauhse once the system is turned off the game and system are once again unaltered. If you were sued and brought to court they could check your systems all they wanted and wouldn't find a **** thing.
4. Nintendo probably already knows all of this and really doesn't care and that's why people haven't been sued yet.(What they REALLY REALLY care about is people stealing their games)