Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[GunmasterLombardi]

You can tell where the bombs land.

But WHEN will they spawn where you PREDICT they will spawn?

 

[Kewkky]

But WHEN will they spawn where you PREDICT they will spawn?

You can use this same argument for tripping. WHEN will you trip where you PREDICT you will trip? I can predict I'm gonna trip whenever I'll edgehog some random guy, but the fact that I trip or don't trip is completely random... Much more random than a controlled element like Sudden Death, where the bombs start spawning indefinitely after a set amount of time only during Sudden Death... Tripping is always active, and you always trip randomly.

So if Sudden Death is never played because of X/Y reason, why is tripping still there?


Oh, and lookie here, in the SBR-B recommended ruleset:

Resolving Ties: Any games ending in time running out should always be decided by stock, and then percents. If percents are the same or both players die simultaneously, there will be a 1 stock overttime or the sudden death will be played out.

Seems like Sudden Death IS played out in tourneys and is supported by the SBR-B, even with all that random bomb stuff... So why is it that tripping isn't random for you?



(for the record, I reinstate: I'm okay with tripping, I've grown used to it)

 

[¿Qué?]

Yeah, In brawl I'm currently maining Peach. I know she doesn't really need the dash to be used to full effect, but I'd have to argue that she does lack speed on getting around. If I'ma have to skip everywhere to get around the arena I'ma die.

(P.S. My DK trips metric sht tons.)

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

It is random, but being random isn't enough to get rid of it when our metagame is not in any danger.

Besides, major complaints of tripping like the Logic match are SO minor.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Tripping does not make anyone lose matches, IT'S THEIR FAULT.

You really don't know what you're defending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw

Watch that video posted by dphanna.
He's using 1 controller to use 3 Marios.
The Blue one trips twice. The Red one trips once. The White one doesn't trip. They all are doing the same thing at the same exact time. He has no control over when he trips. It's not the players fault. AT ALL.
While tripping doesn't affect me much (main MK and use Jiggs in low tiers) I still think it's a stupid addition to this game, even when it does happen to my opponent.

 

[6Mizu]

Tripping needs to be banned. God is right...

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You really don't know what you're defending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCtH2QTsPw

Watch that video posted by dphanna.
He's using 1 controller to use 3 Marios.
The Blue one trips twice. The Red one trips once. The White one doesn't trip. They all are doing the same thing at the same exact time. He has no control over when he trips. It's not the players fault. AT ALL.
While tripping doesn't affect me much (main MK and use Jiggs in low tiers) I still think it's a stupid addition to this game, even when it does happen to my opponent.

When I say it is the player's fault, I mean that they should know the risk of dashing and dashing a lot is begging to trip.

I suggest characters who apparently NEED to dash should dash less, and Diddy Kong does not need to worry about tripping so much. Of all of the Diddy's I have played they never tripped NEAR me w/o a banana. So for all of you that use a character like Oli or Yoshi (...), if tripping is that big of a deal for you then use a better character.

 

[Palpi]

Okay guys...gunmaster is right. If you need to dash to edgehog/guard, punish a laggy move, continue a string of combos/grabs or retreats...we should just drop all of that and walk everywhere. NO WAIT!! LETS PIVOT/WALK... EVER BETTER IDEA!!!

*sigh

 

[joeysmash]

When I say it is the player's fault, I mean that they should know the risk of dashing and dashing a lot is begging to trip.

I suggest characters who apparently NEED to dash should dash less, and Diddy Kong does not need to worry about tripping so much. Of all of the Diddy's I have played they never tripped NEAR me w/o a banana. So for all of you that use a character like Oli or Yoshi (...), if tripping is that big of a deal for you then use a better character.

I swear if it wern't for the fact you had so many posts I would swear all your doing is trolling.

Anyways, the fact is tripping is dumb. its pointless. its stupid.

We have the power to remove it. Legally from what Ive read.

It needs to be done. its a small change. Will it happen? probably not, which is silly but whatever.

 

[AvaricePanda]

1) How specifically is it legal?

2) What about sneaking in extra modifications with the no tripping rule, such as MK doing less damage or Falco's lasers doing 1% more or not decaying? I heard from pretty reliable sources that you can't check every code you add on, and even if you could, there's a possibility for TOs to cheat and add them anyway for their own benefit, or possibly overlook a Wii that already has those hacks.

3) Will your Brawl forever have no tripping if you have it modified, or do you have to open Brawl through Homebrew or whatever.

(this brings up another concern about using texture hacked wiis for tournament as they could have those slight codeset changes as well)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

1) How specifically is it legal?

Not quite sure on this one

2) What about sneaking in extra modifications with the no tripping rule, such as MK doing less damage or Falco's lasers doing 1% more or not decaying? I heard from pretty reliable sources that you can't check every code you add on, and even if you could, there's a possibility for TOs to cheat and add them anyway for their own benefit, or possibly overlook a Wii that already has those hacks.

If you're worrying about your TO cheating, then you wouldn't want to go to their tournaments anyway. It's easy to just take everyone's SD card and put your codeset with only tripping on.

3) Will your Brawl forever have no tripping if you have it modified, or do you have to open Brawl through Homebrew or whatever.
(this brings up another concern about using texture hacked wiis for tournament as they could have those slight codeset changes as well)

No, it will not be on your wii forever. You don't even have to use Homebrew, you can use stacksmash to load through stage builder.

 

[MK26]

1) How specifically is it legal?

I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.

So basically, if you can run around with an Action Replay/GameShark/Game Genie, you sure as hell can run around with Smash Stack on an SD Card.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can't compare Random Stage Select and Super Sudden Death as Random Stages can be chosen before the match where as there is no on or off switch for super sudden death.


and to compare Super Sudden Death with Hyrule???? That's a straw man argument

Why?


As I said, we're specifically ignoring (banning) a gameplay situation, and it has all the attributes that make it independantly banworthy, a criteria we could apply for characters and techniques, and has been done in the past.


So yes, since I'm referring to more general ban criteria it's the same.



And yes, I would say the same thing about the game itself, if the metagame is unsavable due to some unbannable tactic being that good, I'd suggest that Brawl itself is banworthy and suggest we go with a hacked version.


But tripping is not bad enough to warrant that step.

hurrr durrr

its amazing, coz its yet ANOTHER point to add to the list of things brawl needs to ban/limit to be viable, and you will still get idiots who say play the game as it is, dont ban anything. Because other fighting game communities never ban anything (getting at d3 infinite CG here), therefore brawl shouldnt, because its a real fighting game.

a real fighting game, which just like all other 'pure' fighting games, must

ban all items
ban 3/4 of the stages
only be played in 1 game mode
have limitations placed on certain playstyles
a different system than what the game intended for time-outs

Its truly hilarious the deluded purist mentality you get from some people when it comes to banning the likes of D3's infinite, limiting ledgegrab rules and in this case, with tripping, yet the same people advocate the banning of so much more, as if their interpreatation of what needs to be banned or not is worth more because it comes directly from a purist mentality.

get that purist **** outa here.

Fact is the game is butchered down to a tiny portion of what was programmed into it, there can be no argument of playing the game as it is anymore, its CLEARLY doesnt work.

Lol.


I apply the same criteria to everything that I consider banworthy, maybe you misunderstood from my presentation, but I could make the same argument for a banned character, or a banned technique, or a banned stage. And if I can't then it probably shouldn't be banned.



Also, items aren't banned, they aren't present because the game specifically gives us the OPTION of choosing between a metagame with or without items.

Most of the other stuff you mention is either similar or at a meta-level that the game cannot account for, and therefore fall into "tournament settings", neither adding or removing from the game, but either picking a specific option that it alllows or giving the game context.




Ultimately, it comes down to this, is something inherently overcentralizing? If not, we shouldn't be banning it.


If you guys wanna "ban Brawl" by standardizing a hacked version, then you better have something that truly overcentralizes.

Brawl+ says hi. No TO has been sued over Brawl+. This is a non-issue. Saying, well it could happen, is an extremely weak argument. How many tournaments using mods have been run? Enough to know this isn't happening.

Whether MLG supports this is a little different as they are a corporate entity. Individual TOs... there is no evidence at all that there is any legal or technical risk of using mods.

And you can get venues that don't care and will do illegal things... how is this unexpected?


As I said, it's clearly in violation of the EALU.

I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.

So basically, if you can run around with an Action Replay/GameShark/Game Genie, you sure as hell can run around with Smash Stack on an SD Card.

This isn't just an American issue.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I don't see tripping putting the metagame in danger, let alone any characters who have dash as a large component in their own game.

Sooner or later those of you who still whine over such a minor inconvenience will just focus on improving yourselves (which has nothing to do w/ why you're complaining) and realize tripping is not a big deal.

 

[Pharrox]

It seems like people are really making a bigger deal out of this than they need to be.

True, tripping is a ******** mechanic that was added solely for the reason to screw over competitive play, I think most people can agree on this. Still, I think that it's making a pretty big deal to make this recognized as a fully accepted ruleset change. Admittedly, I haven't been to many tournaments, and I'm not really that good of a player, but from what I've seen I just don't think enough people would care to make it worth making a new rule.

Heck, in most matches stage striking, port order, and even the counter picking and stage bans are pretty irrelevant due to the large skill gap between the various players. Even if tripping gives someone a free kill it still probably won't matter for roughly 75% of the matches. Getting that many SD cards and trying to ensure that everything is running appropriate hax is a hassle that opens doors to potential dangerous behavior and isn't really worth the expense or the hassle.

As already mentioned experimentation with the ruleset is encouraged. It may be reasonable for the TO to keep a single SD card and include a clause in the rules that if there is a dispute regarding tripping they could get it activated for their set, or just have a single Wii set aside if there are any no tripping requests. It sounds good as an argument all spelled out, but in actual tournaments, I doubt there would be very many people who would care enough to specifically request that their match be played with a no tripping code active.


Well I could be way off on this, I probably am, but I just felt like throwing it out there.

 

[MK26]

This isn't just an American issue.

Remind me again why other countries can't accept (or at least determine the validity of before rejecting) American legal precedent?

The point is, the precedent is there. At least for Nintendo of America, they don't have a case going for them in the (highly unlikely and unprecedented, don't forget) occasion that they they attempt to shut someone down for running a code that turns the random chance of tripping down to 0%.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Remind me again why other countries can't accept (or at least determine the validity of before rejecting) American legal precedent?

The point is, the precedent is there. At least for Nintendo of America, they don't have a case going for them in the (highly unlikely and unprecedented, don't forget) occasion that they they attempt to shut someone down for running a code that turns the random chance of tripping down to 0%.

I'd be wrong if I said that it didn't happen. However, that doesn't mean that our laws apply over there is completely wrong. This only happens when the legal language is very similar and the country has a tendency to follow American legal precedent, and very rarely otherwise.

Foreign copyright law in terms of what qualifies as "Fair Use"... no.


But the legal concern is more an issue for individual TOs, Americans have clear case law for doing it (I assume, I've got a legal background so I'll read the case more carefully), but people in foreign countries, given how Draconian copyright infringement enforcement usually is, a lot of venues simply won't wanna take the chance.


Venues are far more vulnerable then individual players and TOs.

 

[Merce]

18 pages already?

Lol thread +1

edit:

worth the infraction. This thread is ridiculous.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I just posted this a few posts up, but Galoob v. Nintendo basically said that putting codes into a game after having legally bought it doesn't create a derivative work (meaning it doesn't infringe copyright) and therefore isn't illegal in any way. This is for a product that is sold for profit.

So basically, if you can run around with an Action Replay/GameShark/Game Genie, you sure as hell can run around with Smash Stack on an SD Card.

Ok, I haven't read past this post, but there's something that MK26 is missing, and it's REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT from an American legal standpoint...

...and that's the concept of "implied agreement".

For instance, I walk into a Chili's and go to the bar. I order some chips, which costs 1.99$. I then order a margarita... but wait! That margarita doesn't have a price next to it! Sweet, I just stumbled onto "free margarita day". I eat my chips and order 5 more drinks, and before the waitress can get me my bill, I drop a 5$ on the table and left.

I get arrested for failure to pay. I argue, "But wait! There was no price on the drinks! How was I to know I was supposed to pay for them?" The legal precedent of "implied agreement". When you walk into an establishment, it is implied that you must pay for the goods that you purchase; everyone knows that you must pay, and so no one can get away with not paying, because it's implied that you know to do so, regardless of any attempts of misleading by the establishment (such as not pricing an item).

How does this apply to hacking Brawl?

Easy. The EULA. End User License Agreements (or EULAs) have been used for years to force users to agree (implicitly, by their very use of the product) to a set of non-negotiable terms before, during, and after product use. This practice is VERY loosely regulated, from a legal precedent standpoint. This is why everything you do on a computing device these days has a EULA, and why they all start by saying "By using this product, the end user agrees to the following terms:"... because the concept of "implied agreement" allows them to put anything that is technically legal past that point, and it's implied that you read and agree to all terms... or else you wouldn't be using the product.

Nintendo's Wii EULA specifically states that you cannot tamper with their code during use of the system (more specifically, that you can't use the system to run code not authorized by Nintendo), and that failure to comply, from a legal standpoint, is breach of contract (because EULAs are legally binding contracts), for which Nintendo reserves the right to seek damages.

That's the law, people. Sucks, but that's what happened because we didn't ***** enough when EULAs first came out.

So, MK26... it is illegal to hack Brawl because the EULA says we can't run unauthorized code, and Brawl hacks have not been authorized by Nintendo; the case you cited is a moot point because EULAs didn't exist then. This is an entirely different matter.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm really, really glad most of us are pirating *******s that don't care about any stupid EULAs.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ah, but there's always "fair use", which is a lot more extensive then people realize... in the US.


However, commercial ventures are generally less covered, and tournaments are commercial (Technically...).

 

[ToxiCrow]

Nintendo's Wii EULA specifically states that you cannot tamper with their code during use of the system (more specifically, that you can't use the system to run code not authorized by Nintendo), and that failure to comply, from a legal standpoint, is breach of contract (because EULAs are legally binding contracts), for which Nintendo reserves the right to seek damages.
So, MK26... it is illegal to hack Brawl because the EULA says we can't run unauthorized code, and Brawl hacks have not been authorized by Nintendo; the case you cited is a moot point because EULAs didn't exist then. This is an entirely different matter.

Ok I have a question for you then.
According to your post, running unauthorized code is illegal, correct?
So is using Stack Smash illegal too? And if it is, what makes it different from using a Power Saves SD card (which can be obtained almost anywhere electronics are sold), which essentially does the same thing? By that I mean it runs unauthorized code.

Powersaves contain game-busting features that let you play your game in ways the programmers never imagined. Depending on the game, you might start with Infinite Lives, Infinite Health, All Characters Unlocked, Every Item - the possibilities are endless.
All these things can also be done using Gecko OS.

If we remove tripping with this, (not that I'm saying we will because I'd rather just use Stack Smash or the Homebrew Channel) is it still illegal? If not, why not? And if it is still illegal, why will they sell something illegal in places like Target and Walmart (not to mention near Nintendo products)?

TL;DR - when does it become illegal when it comes to running unauthorized code?

 

[MK26]

I'd be wrong if I said that it didn't happen. However, that doesn't mean that our laws apply over there is completely wrong. This only happens when the legal language is very similar and the country has a tendency to follow American legal precedent, and very rarely otherwise.

Foreign copyright law in terms of what qualifies as "Fair Use"... no.


But the legal concern is more an issue for individual TOs, Americans have clear case law for doing it (I assume, I've got a legal background so I'll read the case more carefully), but people in foreign countries, given how Draconian copyright infringement enforcement usually is, a lot of venues simply won't wanna take the chance.


Venues are far more vulnerable then individual players and TOs.

Yeah, I was unaware that copyright law was so drastically diffferent between our countries...

As for 'risk'...I'm not gonna go there. The most I can say on the topic is laugh at the possibility that Ninty would crack down on a small bunch of teens and twenty-somethings that want to enjoy a game they've bought.

Ok, I haven't read past this post, but there's something that MK26 is missing, and it's REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT from an American legal standpoint...

...and that's the concept of "implied agreement".

For instance, I walk into a Chili's and go to the bar. I order some chips, which costs 1.99$. I then order a margarita... but wait! That margarita doesn't have a price next to it! Sweet, I just stumbled onto "free margarita day". I eat my chips and order 5 more drinks, and before the waitress can get me my bill, I drop a 5$ on the table and left.

I get arrested for failure to pay. I argue, "But wait! There was no price on the drinks! How was I to know I was supposed to pay for them?" The legal precedent of "implied agreement". When you walk into an establishment, it is implied that you must pay for the goods that you purchase; everyone knows that you must pay, and so no one can get away with not paying, because it's implied that you know to do so, regardless of any attempts of misleading by the establishment (such as not pricing an item).

How does this apply to hacking Brawl?

Easy. The EULA. End User License Agreements (or EULAs) have been used for years to force users to agree (implicitly, by their very use of the product) to a set of non-negotiable terms before, during, and after product use. This practice is VERY loosely regulated, from a legal precedent standpoint. This is why everything you do on a computing device these days has a EULA, and why they all start by saying "By using this product, the end user agrees to the following terms:"... because the concept of "implied agreement" allows them to put anything that is technically legal past that point, and it's implied that you read and agree to all terms... or else you wouldn't be using the product.

Nintendo's Wii EULA specifically states that you cannot tamper with their code during use of the system (more specifically, that you can't use the system to run code not authorized by Nintendo), and that failure to comply, from a legal standpoint, is breach of contract (because EULAs are legally binding contracts), for which Nintendo reserves the right to seek damages.

That's the law, people. Sucks, but that's what happened because we didn't ***** enough when EULAs first came out.

So, MK26... it is illegal to hack Brawl because the EULA says we can't run unauthorized code, and Brawl hacks have not been authorized by Nintendo; the case you cited is a moot point because EULAs didn't exist then. This is an entirely different matter.

Just out of curiousity: I started hacking in Feb 09, and I turned off my WiiConnect24 at that time out of fear of some ninja patch by Ninty that would delete my homebrew. I see that the Wii EULA was last updated in March of that same year, which, according to Google, was the update that added the "no unauthorized modifications" clause. Thus, I haven't complied with anything that says I'm not allowed to hack my Wii. How could I have breached a contract I haven't agreed to?

And what kind of damages could Nintendo seek? I've legally paid for all of the software from Nintendo that I use, and I assume the same is true for most of the people here. I just don't get what they think banning hacking will do for them.

And that's still ignoring the possibility that the EULA could be considered illegal if put to the test in court...Wikipedia says it's been done before...

And just for the record, the part of the EULA pertaining to hacking says:
. . . I am not allowed to use anything not licensed by Nintendo with the Wii
. . . . . . Such use may be illegal (note "may")
. . . . . . Such use voids my warranty (y'know, the one that's expired)
. . . . . . Such use is a breach of the agreement (redundant)
. . . . . . Such use may lead to personal injury (lol)
. . . . . . Such use may damage the Wii or the Wii Network Service (Ninty bricked more Wiis with that fail update a while back than have ever been bricked by homebrew)
. . . Ninty is not responsible for damage caused by unlicensed stuff (why would they be?)
. . . Ninty can try to disable/delete the unauthorized stuff (tried and failed how many times now?)
. . . Ninty may brick your Wii if they catch you (WTF?!)

That last one is the big one. How the hell can that possibly be legal?!? As far as I'm concerned, I (read: Santa my parents) paid for the **** thing, I can do whatever the **** I want with it. EULA be ****ed.

EDIT: if the Galoob case is a moot point...why do people still have ARs, GSs, etc? What law protects them that can't be extended to us? The DS has an EULA that prevents unauthorized mods, but I still see DSi AR Maxes being sold.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I love how the debate has gone from simple hate of tripping (which occurs for me like literally one in 300 times) to pure lawsuit possiblities xD

 

[lain]

What AlphaZealot said.

IC's can kind of protect themselves, but if your opponent gets on you immediately then that trip is just as deadly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, I was unaware that copyright law was so drastically diffferent between our countries...

As for 'risk'...I'm not gonna go there. The most I can say on the topic is laugh at the possibility that Ninty would crack down on a small bunch of teens and twenty-somethings that want to enjoy a game they've bought.

Again, this is more an issue for venues, especially if the venue is part of a larger organization due to the risk of the parent company getting sued.


But never assume that laws are at all similar, laws are drastically different between STATES, let alone countries.



Your assumption should always be that the laws are dissimilar unless A. You prove that they aren't, or B. A group with the ability to dictate in this area to all establishes the rule and prevents them from adapting it at all.


For example, if you're doing something that's within the US state's purview, prove that all 50 states have a law that says exactly the same thing legally speaking relative to what you're trying to prove.

What AlphaZealot said.

IC's can kind of protect themselves, but if your opponent gets on you immediately then that trip is just as deadly.

In general, I refuse to dash against the ICs if they can possibly grab me, no tripping possibility, you've got Popo or Nana to protect you if you trip.


Still, considering how vulnerable ICs are when seperated, I think that tripping effects IC MUs disproportionately.









But at least it's not universally the melee tripping, random moves not coming out is FUN!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just out of curiousity: I started hacking in Feb 09, and I turned off my WiiConnect24 at that time out of fear of some ninja patch by Ninty that would delete my homebrew. I see that the Wii EULA was last updated in March of that same year, which, according to Google, was the update that added the "no unauthorized modifications" clause. Thus, I haven't complied with anything that says I'm not allowed to hack my Wii. How could I have breached a contract I haven't agreed to?

This, I'm not too sure about. It could be argued two ways in court:

For: Because you technically didn't receive the updated EULA, you never agreed to it yourself, and thus any changes made to it wouldn't be reflective of YOUR particular end user agreement with Nintendo.

Against: "Implicit agreement", by definition, relies on implicit understandings, and thus any knowledge of the changed EULA on your part implies an agreement to it, or an admission to breaking Nintendo's (intended) EULA. Much like my Chili's example, you knew the EULA had been changed, knew the changes, and knew the intention was for them to apply to all users, but attempted to leave yourself plausible deniability. Thus, the EULA stands up in court because you knew it had changed, but still disobeyed anyway.

As for which one the courts might go with... well, I'm sure the MPAA and RIAA cases have shown you that courts OVERWHELMINGLY side with corporations when it comes to potential IP infringement.

And what kind of damages could Nintendo seek? I've legally paid for all of the software from Nintendo that I use, and I assume the same is true for most of the people here. I just don't get what they think banning hacking will do for them.

Actually, most people don't understand this, but you DON'T pay for the software, you technically (and legally) pay for a disc containing data, and a LICENSE FROM NINTENDO to use the software according to their terms. It's the same with music; you don't buy a song, you buy a data file with sound data and a license to play those sounds under certain terms; that's why DRM can do ALL SORTS of stupid stuff to your music library, including locking out of your own music and TOTAL AUTOMATIC DELETION of songs if the computer even detects possible infringement. According to the DMCA, that even applies to music you've bought, but lost due to hard drive failure. If you attempt to recover that music without buying another "license", you're a pirate, by law.

And that's still ignoring the possibility that the EULA could be considered illegal if put to the test in court...Wikipedia says it's been done before...

See above. It really is grey area, though.

And just for the record, the part of the EULA pertaining to hacking says:
. . . I am not allowed to use anything not licensed by Nintendo with the Wii
. . . . . . Such use may be illegal (note "may")
. . . . . . Such use voids my warranty (y'know, the one that's expired)
. . . . . . Such use is a breach of the agreement (redundant)
. . . . . . Such use may lead to personal injury (lol)
. . . . . . Such use may damage the Wii or the Wii Network Service (Ninty bricked more Wiis with that fail update a while back than have ever been bricked by homebrew)
. . . Ninty is not responsible for damage caused by unlicensed stuff (why would they be?)
. . . Ninty can try to disable/delete the unauthorized stuff (tried and failed how many times now?)
. . . Ninty may brick your Wii if they catch you (WTF?!)

That last one is the big one. How the hell can that possibly be legal?!? As far as I'm concerned, I (read: Santa my parents) paid for the d*mn thing, I can do whatever the f*ck I want with it. EULA be d*mned.

Actually, no. Legally, you didn't buy it... You bought a physical Wii and a license from Nintendo to use it and the provided OS as they say. You own the physical Wii, maybe, but the data contained inside, and anything you run on it, is simply licensed to you for private use under Nintendo's terms. As such, they still legally own the Wii OS on your system, and can (legally) brick it if they deem the terms of your license broken.

Really, people need to go read AltF4's copyright law thread in the Debate Hall on this... it's some f*ucked up stuff.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This, I'm not too sure about. It could be argued two ways in court:

For: Because you technically didn't receive the updated EULA, you never agreed to it yourself, and thus any changes made to it wouldn't be reflective of YOUR particular end user agreement with Nintendo.

Against: "Implicit agreement", by definition, relies on implicit understandings, and thus any knowledge of the changed EULA on your part implies an agreement to it, or an admission to breaking Nintendo's (intended) EULA. Much like my Chili's example, you knew the EULA had been changed, knew the changes, and knew the intention was for them to apply to all users, but attempted to leave yourself plausible deniability. Thus, the EULA stands up in court because you knew it had changed, but still disobeyed anyway.

As for which one the courts might go with... well, I'm sure the MPAA and RIAA cases have shown you that courts OVERWHELMINGLY side with corporations when it comes to potential IP infringement.



Actually, most people don't understand this, but you DON'T pay for the software, you technically (and legally) pay for a disc containing data, and a LICENSE FROM NINTENDO to use the software according to their terms. It's the same with music; you don't buy a song, you buy a data file with sound data and a license to play those sounds under certain terms; that's why DRM can do ALL SORTS of stupid stuff to your music library, including locking out of your own music and TOTAL AUTOMATIC DELETION of songs if the computer even detects possible infringement. According to the DMCA, that even applies to music you've bought, but lost due to hard drive failure. If you attempt to recover that music without buying another "license", you're a pirate, by law.



See above. It really is grey area, though.



Actually, no. Legally, you didn't buy it... You bought a physical Wii and a license from Nintendo to use it and the provided OS as they say. You own the physical Wii, maybe, but the data contained inside, and anything you run on it, is simply licensed to you for private use under Nintendo's terms. As such, they still legally own the Wii OS on your system, and can (legally) brick it if they deem the terms of your license broken.

Really, people need to go read AltF4's copyright law thread in the Debate Hall on this... it's some f*ucked up stuff.

To avoid derailing this thread further, I won't go into specific details but there ARE fair use provisions in US copyright law which substantially mitigate a number of these issues.



As far as the case goes, I can't think of a court in the world which would side with him. You are notified that the agreement can be changed at any time, and it provides you with an updated version, you SPECIFICALLY BLOCK the updated version, and you expect to not be responsible for it?

They are only responsible for making available the terms of the agreement, if you explicitly prevent them from doing so, you are still responsible for the contents, and I'm sure I could provide case law to that effect in areas completely unrelated to copyright.

 

[MK26]

This ****'s ****ed up.

Jack, I added an edit to my previous post before you responded, but presumably after you started writing your response.

I'll respond to the rest later, but imma go read AltF4's thread now

EDIT: i read it, and if anything, it makes me agree with Nintendo's side a bit more... :/

 

[GimR]

From the legal stand point I kind of understand why Nintendo would be upset. They put years into making the game and the data in the game is legally theirs.

Let me put it this way:

-If you want an artist to make you a drawing for $50 he might gladly do it(even a good one)

-But if you want an artist to make you a drawing, but you have the right to sell it on t-shirts, mugs, and other apparell, and also the right to edit the image to make it even more sellable or in different colors then we have a different story. It'll cost much more


The only problem I have is, we're aren't re-selling the game in it's new form, and you can't play the new game unless you already bought the old one and have it in the system.



And to everyone who says you could get sued I'd like to tell you that this would be virtually impossible for multiple reasons:


1. Even if a Nintendo rep was there, he or she would most likely no nothing about Brawl's tripping mechanics, thus not notice a thing.

2. Even if they did notice they would have no way to prove it because the rep would not be allowed to just take the persons system from the Venue because that would be stealing.

3. Since it's loaded through the SD card and Home brew doesn't exist on the system you could straight up tell the Nintendo rep that you were playing with hacks on. Why? Because once the system is turned off the game and system are once again unaltered. If you were sued and brought to court they could check your systems all they wanted and wouldn't find a **** thing.

4. Nintendo probably already knows all of this and really doesn't care and that's why people haven't been sued yet.(What they REALLY REALLY care about is people stealing their games)

 

[Veril]

Well, its good to know how convoluted and insane copyright law is, and that the 250$ console and 50$ game I bought aren't actually mine. Legally I'm required to play this s***?!

F*** that!

As it stands, I like to believe that Nintendo is guided by simply wanting to avoid piracy and that suing someone for simple mods to a popular game that literally has no impact on Nintendo's bottom line is not a real danger (since you don't even need to install homebrew to use these codes). Lawsuits are expensive, not only monetarily but also in public opinion.

4. Nintendo probably already knows all of this and really doesn't care and that's why people haven't been sued yet.(What they REALLY REALLY care about is people stealing their games)

Nintendo is aware of brawl hacking. They aren't blind or deaf, and I'm sure someone in the company actually cares enough to have noticed.

 

[CT Chia]

Note: I have not read the thread, only the OP

*sigh* You're missing a big part of the problem with this GIMR that you hardly touched on in the OP. I'll get to that in a minute.

Before adding my own part of the conversation to this, let me refute something I found very easy to counter from the OP:

Argument:


We should play the game the way it was meant to be played which means no tripping!


Counter Argument:

If this is the case then how far should we take it? The default settings for Brawl are 2 minutes with medium items on. All stages are in the random select Cue. If we were to really play it the way it was meant to be played shouldn't items, including smash balls, be on? Shouldn't every stage be legal? Of course not. We as players have discovered what's the most balanced way to play this game despite what the developers wanted. So why not remove an insanely stupid mechanic that happens by chance?

Counter Counter Argument:

Playing the game with 3 stocks, 8 minute time limit, no items, and only certain stages is still playing the game the way it is meant to be played. Saying that the game is meant to be played with 2 minute time because that's what the first settings you see are doesn't really make any sense imo. The settings are there to be changed. Players are free to change these settings to play the game differently, but still within the realm of possibility that the developers intended. There is however, no option for turning tripping off. By hacking the game you are indeed not playing it how the developers intended. You can take a Wii and Brawl with 0 hacks on it and have a perfectly good tournament set up using the options in game.


And now with a few things I can add myself...


How far is too far?:

Ok, so we add no tripping, and that's it? Do we make other standard changes as well? Sure people could say things like Infinite Replays, but that isn't game changing unlike tripping. Tripping is a random element. You made it clear in the OP that the fact that it is a random element can completely change situations unintentionally.

Lets try something else...
How about we remove Peach's chance to pull bombs? I mention this move instead of others because people don't use her down B to pull bombs, they use it to use turnips, however the extremely rare chance at pulling a bomb can completely change the game. This is different from a move like GaW's 9 hammer where people use the hammer with full intention of getting a 9. Do people dash to purposely trip? No, the tripping is an unintentional effect that occurred instead of what was intended.

Devils advocate:
What if we found a code that removes MK's Infinite Cape. Should that be added as well?

Why only most nationals and regionals?:

Why only these classifications? Why not all tournaments? It's all or nothing for me imo. What if I play Vex at a national tournament with tripping off and beat him, yet a week prior I played him at a local with tripping enabled and lost because of tripping at a critical moment? Same set happened, the environment doesn't matter. DSO 10 had in the ballpark of about 20 entrants or so, maybe even less like 16. A local tournament right? The top 3 placings were Ally ADHD and Atomsk. Sounds like a national now eh? Local = regional = national. Smash = smash.

Security and time metrics:

Codes are loaded by the use of a gct file for Brawl. A gct file is essentially a file with a bunch of hex data and nothing else. There is no way to 100% reverse engineer a gct file to find out what codes are in it (though you can partially do so with my program GCTEdit! *shameless plug*) so people can put in codes besides no tripping that are minuscule enough that people won't notice it and yet it could give them a bit of an unfair advantage.

To avoid potential problems the TO has to be the one to load his or her own codeset on every single Wii. Without questioning the trustworthiness of the TO, this adds a lot of time to setting up a tournament, and for anyone that has hosted an underground (as in not official/MLG, aka every single Brawl tourney so far essentially) you should know that this is extremely complicated with how people bring setups. People bring their Wiis, find an open TV, and set them up. This is why at every tournament now we see TVs with ridiculous textures on all the time because the owner of that Wii has it set up with them because they like them. The process would have to be changed to prevent people from setting up their Wiis and having the TO(s) do it for them which takes their attention away from other work that needs to be done. Also what if a setup gets turned off by accident or the system freezes? Gotta have the TO drop everything and go set it up. And what if someone restarts the system with their codes while the TO isn't looking? It would be too easy to get away with.

Additional note: Loading the game with the Smash Stack method certainly does add a noticeable amount of time to the set up process and not to mention you can not have any custom stages saved on the Wii so you can do it. We would then have to erase everyone's custom stages on a Wii that needs to use Smash Stack. How are you going to explain to people that want to bring a set up that all of that data will be erased? Fun stuff, I wouldn't want to bring my Wii to a tourney in that situation.

You are still hacking the game:

To have no tripping involves hacking the game. Hacking the game is something that Nintendo frowns upon OBVIOUSLY. Game companies do everything they can to thwart all kinds of various homebrew applications to do anything that wasn't originally intentioned. If we want the game to be taken seriously and perhaps eventually have Nintendo take notice (what a pipe dream eh?), stuff like this can not be done. Also what if the Smash Stack loader through the stage builder becomes blocked? Then what do we do? It's possible that it could be blocked.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Devils advocate:
What if we found a code that removes MK's Infinite Cape. Should that be added as well?

Exists. Just FYI.

 

[GimR]

Note: I have not read the thread, only the OP

*sigh* You're missing a big part of the problem with this GIMR that you hardly touched on in the OP. I'll get to that in a minute.

Before adding my own part of the conversation to this, let me refute something I found very easy to counter from the OP:



Counter Counter Argument:

Playing the game with 3 stocks, 8 minute time limit, no items, and only certain stages is still playing the game the way it is meant to be played. Saying that the game is meant to be played with 2 minute time because that's what the first settings you see are doesn't really make any sense imo. The settings are there to be changed. Players are free to change these settings to play the game differently, but still within the realm of possibility that the developers intended. There is however, no option for turning tripping off. By hacking the game you are indeed not playing it how the developers intended. You can take a Wii and Brawl with 0 hacks on it and have a perfectly good tournament set up using the options in game.


And now with a few things I can add myself...


How far is too far?:

Ok, so we add no tripping, and that's it? Do we make other standard changes as well? Sure people could say things like Infinite Replays, but that isn't game changing unlike tripping. Tripping is a random element. You made it clear in the OP that the fact that it is a random element can completely change situations unintentionally.

Lets try something else...
How about we remove Peach's chance to pull bombs? I mention this move instead of others because people don't use her down B to pull bombs, they use it to use turnips, however the extremely rare chance at pulling a bomb can completely change the game. This is different from a move like GaW's 9 hammer where people use the hammer with full intention of getting a 9. Do people dash to purposely trip? No, the tripping is an unintentional effect that occurred instead of what was intended.

Devils advocate:
What if we found a code that removes MK's Infinite Cape. Should that be added as well?

Why only most nationals and regionals?:

Why only these classifications? Why not all tournaments? It's all or nothing for me imo. What if I play Vex at a national tournament with tripping off and beat him, yet a week prior I played him at a local with tripping enabled and lost because of tripping at a critical moment? Same set happened, the environment doesn't matter. DSO 10 had in the ballpark of about 20 entrants or so, maybe even less like 16. A local tournament right? The top 3 placings were Ally ADHD and Atomsk. Sounds like a national now eh? Local = regional = national. Smash = smash.

Security and time metrics:

Codes are loaded by the use of a gct file for Brawl. A gct file is essentially a file with a bunch of hex data and nothing else. There is no way to 100% reverse engineer a gct file to find out what codes are in it (though you can partially do so with my program GCTEdit! *shameless plug*) so people can put in codes besides no tripping that are minuscule enough that people won't notice it and yet it could give them a bit of an unfair advantage.

To avoid potential problems the TO has to be the one to load his or her own codeset on every single Wii. Without questioning the trustworthiness of the TO, this adds a lot of time to setting up a tournament, and for anyone that has hosted an underground (as in not official/MLG, aka every single Brawl tourney so far essentially) you should know that this is extremely complicated with how people bring setups. People bring their Wiis, find an open TV, and set them up. This is why at every tournament now we see TVs with ridiculous textures on all the time because the owner of that Wii has it set up with them because they like them. The process would have to be changed to prevent people from setting up their Wiis and having the TO(s) do it for them which takes their attention away from other work that needs to be done. Also what if a setup gets turned off by accident or the system freezes? Gotta have the TO drop everything and go set it up. And what if someone restarts the system with their codes while the TO isn't looking? It would be too easy to get away with.

Additional note: Loading the game with the Smash Stack method certainly does add a noticeable amount of time to the set up process and not to mention you can not have any custom stages saved on the Wii so you can do it. We would then have to erase everyone's custom stages on a Wii that needs to use Smash Stack. How are you going to explain to people that want to bring a set up that all of that data will be erased? Fun stuff, I wouldn't want to bring my Wii to a tourney in that situation.

You are still hacking the game:

To have no tripping involves hacking the game. Hacking the game is something that Nintendo frowns upon OBVIOUSLY. Game companies do everything they can to thwart all kinds of various homebrew applications to do anything that wasn't originally intentioned. If we want the game to be taken seriously and perhaps eventually have Nintendo take notice (what a pipe dream eh?), stuff like this can not be done. Also what if the Smash Stack loader through the stage builder becomes blocked? Then what do we do? It's possible that it could be blocked.

ugh, that was my weakest and quickest written point and yet everyone seems to only address that one.

 

[BigLøu]

I agree, I've seen some stupid stuff happen because of tripping. Actually some characters have better trip then others, like olimars tech roll is horrendous whereas snake's is beast

 

[Zozefup]

I hate tripping. I would love to be able to dash dance without fear

 

[Masmasher@]

maybe somebody should read the thread...

 

[Jack Kieser]

ugh, that was my weakest and quickest written point and yet everyone seems to only address that one.

I like how Chibo's super-post was quoted in its entirety, and all you could say back was this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And to everyone who says you could get sued I'd like to tell you that this would be virtually impossible for multiple reasons:


1. Even if a Nintendo rep was there, he or she would most likely no nothing about Brawl's tripping mechanics, thus not notice a thing.

2. Even if they did notice they would have no way to prove it because the rep would not be allowed to just take the persons system from the Venue because that would be stealing.

3. Since it's loaded through the SD card and Home brew doesn't exist on the system you could straight up tell the Nintendo rep that you were playing with hacks on. Why? Becauhse once the system is turned off the game and system are once again unaltered. If you were sued and brought to court they could check your systems all they wanted and wouldn't find a **** thing.

4. Nintendo probably already knows all of this and really doesn't care and that's why people haven't been sued yet.(What they REALLY REALLY care about is people stealing their games)

You are completely missing the point, it's not the individual players that are vulnerable, THE VENUE is vulnerable. Especially if they are affiliated with a larger parent organization.


While it is unlikely that they'll sue individual players, the venue is primarily assuming the risk. That said, it's certainly possible for them to take the tact of the music industry, the damages woulld presumably be similar.

 

[Eddie G]

Alright, we get it, you guys are content with tripping. This legality discussion is a waste of time and just makes this thread look like the "MK discussion's" sister thread if anything.

It's honestly just a bunch of *blah blah blah insert moderately lengthy +1 to the post count here* at this point.