Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[GimR]

This is gonna be along read. I encourage you to sit through it though because it has a lot off good information in it and I feel that most rational people will come to agree that tripping should be banned after reading this.

Before going into any of my arguments and my defense on many counter arguments I've heard let me first explain in depth what tripping is.



Tripping

• Tripping is an action in Brawl which leaves a character vulnerable just long enough where he or she can be punished with an attack or grab. Also, it randomly happens.

• Your character can randomly trip during only two animations:
  • Out of the beginning of his or her dash animation
  • While doing a slow Turn around during his or her running animation

• When you trip you are invincible for a split second and then open to a free hit or grab for about 3/5 of a second. After you trip and you are on your butt. You can either roll, stand up, or get up attack, Here's the thing:
  
  • When you do a normal roll, stand up, or get up attack, let's say after being D-throw by Snake, you are invincible at the start up of each of those animations.
    • While rolling your invincibility lasts for about 1/2 of the animation.
    • When you stand up your invincibility lasts for about 1/2 of the animation
    • When you do a get up attack you're invincible until after the first hitbox comes out
• • When you do a roll, stand up, or get up attack, after you trip, you are invincible for a considerably less amount of time
    • While rolling your invincibility lasts for about 1/4 of the animation.
    • When you stand up your invincibility lasts for about 1/4 of the animation
    • When you do a get up attack you can be attacked or grabbed before your first hitbox even comes out!

So basically tripping is a random mechanic that puts a character at a severe disadvantage. Why should that be considered an okay thing. If people want to have no tripping at their events why do some complain?




Arguments I've Heard that are pro Tripping:




Argument:


Everyone has the same likely hood of tripping right? So in essence everyone is effected the same by tripping, thus it really doesn't effect the game at all since everyone equally get's hurt by it.


Counter Argument:


This is not the case at all. Just think about certain charcters' Metagames.

The following characters basically don't need to run or dash very much at all to be played successfully in tournament:

Falco, Peach, Wario, Snake, and MetaKnight(there are probably many others)


The following characters Rely on their dashing animations Drastically for spacing, getting around the stage, and moving in general because it is essential to his or her metagame:

Sonic, Olimar, Marth, Kirby(and Probably many others)


Example:


Let's just say an Olimar and Falco player are playing a tournament match. For every minute they play the Falco player dashes 5 times and the olimar dashes 20 times. The match lasts for 4 minutes. That means the Falco player dashed 20 times and the Olimar player dashed 80 times. This means that during this match the Olimar player was 4X more likely to trip then the Falco player! That is not equal.




Argument:


Tripping hinders people with BROKEN chain grabs because they might trip during them and let my character free which is fair.


Counter Argument:


First of all, who are you to call a chain grab broken? If you were tricked into getting grabbed or put into a position where you had to get grabbed that's because of your own lack of skill or because your opponent has skill. he or she shouldn't be punished by random chance when they were smart enough to pull ofo the grab on you in the first place


Second, the likely hood of getting grabbed after a trip is higher then your opponent tripping while chan grabbing you.

.For example, let's just say I'm an IceClimbers player and I grab you. I only need to do the chain grab 6 to 10 times before you're in killing range. the likely hood of me tripping during that time frame is minimal.

.You, on the other hand are a marth player and your running around and spacing near the edge and you trip. BECAUSE of your lack of invincibilty frames after a trip, I, the Iceclimbers player, have about a 75% change of reading you and grabbing you out of the trip.

So in essence your own argument destroys itself because tripping makes the Ice Climbers(+DeDeDE and Falco) more likely to get the grab in the first place, resulting in more chain grabbing for him or her. Trust me, I'm an ice climbers player. I don't know how many times I've gotten a grab off of someone's trip, but it's been a lot. I won a money match earlier this week because of that. At the same time, I don't think my Nana tripped once during any of the chain grabs I pulled off on my opponent.




Argument:


Tripping doesn't effect the game that much since it rarely happens. It's unimportant, it will never prevent someone from winning money.


Counter Argument:


Oh really?


Logic Drove all of the way from Maryland to Illinois to go to this tournament. He made it to losers semi-finals and basically lost the set because of a trip. He had just split Nana from Popo and was making a come back when...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY#t=3m55s




Argument:


We should play the game the way it was meant to be played which means no tripping!


Counter Argument:

If this is the case then how far should we take it? The default settings for Brawl are 2 minutes with medium items on. All stages are in the random select Cue. If we were to really play it the way it was meant to be played shouldn't items, including smash balls, be on? Shouldn't every stage be legal? Of course not. We as players have discovered what's the most balanced way to play this game despite what the developers wanted. So why not remove an insanely stupid mechanic that happens by chance?




Argument:


Well hacking everyones wiis would be too difficult since everyone would have to get Twilight princess and manuually do it themselves. It would take too long and not everone would want to do this.


Counter Argument:


This is not true, an exploit was found in 2009 that allows people to load homebrew through the stage builder in Brawl. The homebrew channel is not necessary; the only thing needed is an SD card with the right information on it(THis is something the tourney host can provide with out the help of smashers):

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/wii/super-smash-bros-brawl-stage-builder-exploit-discovered.html

 

[The_Altrox]

I agree with you on some things (especially that it's easy to hack wii's now) and that tripping is gay and should be eliminated (except for trip moves.) However, wouldn't this logic also mean we should also play hacked versions of Brawl where the characters are more balanced? If tripping causes disadvantages, shouldn't we take the next step in "fair" gameplay and only play hacks that have a balanced roster (or working towards one) like Brawl+ or Balanced Brawl rather than playing a game with broken and terrible characters? or is that a completely seperate can of worms?

 

[Dekar173]

Luigi also has a 2x trip rate, you forgot that bit

Altrox- you can control which character you select/which stage, you can't control tripping.

 

[iLink]

I honestly think it should be considered, especially considering we can use codes now without the need to actually hack the wii.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

 

[The_Altrox]

Altrox- you can control which character you select/which stage, you can't control tripping.

okay, that makes sense, but still bro, hacks play way better imo. not saying I don't love vBrawl, but you'd think that would be the right direction to go.

 

[AceAttacker]

I agree, random tripping is a really stupid feature. I've been killed a bunch of times from tripping right next to my opponent.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

Way to read the thread...someone just posted that its possible to have codes without HACKING a wii.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I agree, random tripping is a really stupid feature. I've been killed a bunch of times from tripping right next to my opponent.

Why are you dashing so much near your foe?

If you really main Kirby then try out his air game.

Edit: TLMSheikant, Missed my point. It is still a modification that differentiates the game into something else.

 

[Dekar173]

Why are you dashing so much near your foe?

If you really main Kirby then try out his air game.

Edit: TLMSheikant, Missed my point. It is still a modification that differentiates the game into something else.

You can't pivot grab without dashing.

 

[Turazrok]

We do this in my state. I main olimar and it helps me soooo much.

 

[AceAttacker]

Why are you dashing so much near your foe?

If you really main Kirby then try out his air game.

I don't dash a lot near them, but when I do, I just happen to trip
Oh, and I forgot to change the icon. I use Marth more often.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You can't pivot grab without dashing.

I know that, but how do you know that is what he/she is trying do?

Edit: Ace, Marth walks at a decent speed, try that. I have never had such a problem but try watching players like MikeHaze play.

 

[MJG]

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

Learn2readplease

Very good Job GIMR.

That match with Logic vs Lain was very sad.

Good job getting your points across. I personally don't have to worry about tripping often because I am usually in the air but I agree with the fact that tripping shouldn't be in the game (although, I have seen very little positive reasons to keep tripping).

 

[joeysmash]

Yes, I think this should happen, its a small change and will help improve the entire community. Its something we shouldn't even have to deal with.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Tripping hurts competition by adding a bit of luck. Nothing good can come from having it in the game, if we can remove it, why not?

 

[theunabletable]

No don't remove tripping, I'll get less infinites!

Anyways, with those exploits where you don't need the HBC, you only need to put the SD card in once and the codes are loaded and you can take out the SD card after that, right?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Tripping hurts competition by adding a bit of luck. Nothing good can come from having it in the game, if we can remove it, why not?

You do not see top players losing their matches still over a gimmick. You do not see them whining to remove it from the game. If they can deal w/ it, so can you. GET F'N BETTER. C:

 

[MJG]

You do not see top players losing their matches still over a gimmick. You do not see them whining to remove it from the game. If they can deal w/ it, so can you. GET F'N BETTER. C:

You obviously didn't read the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY#t=3m55s

Logic is CLEARLY mad about this since he Rage Quit during the CG.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Who said I cant deal with it Guan Master 2kdks? Lmfao I place 3rd-5th consistently in my region and I like...never lost to tripping. What about you? Do you even go to tournaments?

 

[LuigiKing]

At a tournament in Seattle I won a match in bracket because a toon link player tripped at 40% on halberd. I pressed Up B.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You obviously didn't read the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY#t=3m55s

Logic is CLEARLY mad about this since he Rage Quit during the CG.

News Flash: I DON'T CARE.

That is one game between a top player, and a high lvl. player; you guys act like this stuff happens once every 2 tournament games. THIS JUST IN: IT DOESN'T.

 

[Dekar173]

You do not see top players losing their matches still over a gimmick. You do not see them whining to remove it from the game. If they can deal w/ it, so can you. GET F'N BETTER. C:

Aside from maintaining the same game- why should we keep tripping?

How does it keep better players ahead and worse characters behind?

 

[MK26]

Luigi also has a 2x trip rate, you forgot that bit

I dont know where you got that from, but the old trip rate modifier code definitely didnt differentiate between characters...it was certainly global

======

And the problem with this thread is, indeed, why would you stop at tripping? Why indeed, when you can add cosmetic (custom team textures for sonic!) and non-gameplay (unlimited-length replays!) codes. And how about the Triple Jump Glitch? Nobody likes that thing...but we can fix that. Samus' pummel not being able to hit Bowser - an obvious glitch with an easy fix. Sheik's game-freezing Chain Glitch? Infinite Dimensional Cape? Nana teleporting? All gone. How about not fastfalling when pressing the c-stick down in midair? Who wouldn't like getting that control back?

I'm not going to mention changing charactes for the sake of balance, or changing mechanics for the sake of gameplay, because then you really hit the slippery slope. However, making the Mother Boys impervious to grab release shenanigans sounds nice, eh?

I don't want to delve into hyperbole, but you get the point. On the other hand, I'm sure I can find at least one person here that would object to fixing everything I said...except tripping. That one is and always will be the first to go...what goes after is certainly still up in the air.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Aside from maintaining the same game- why should we keep tripping?

How does it keep better players ahead and worse characters behind?

Better players are smarter.

They know better. They know the risks of things. They never force themselves into a position where they HAVE to dash, giving a chance of tripping. I even use Sonic a lot and I don't get screwed into tripping unless it was some random decision when I wasn't even in a tournament match.

Edit: Thank you, Maestro.

 

[sunshade]

News Flash: I DON'T CARE.

That is one game between a top player, and a high lvl. player; you guys act like this stuff happens once every 2 tournament games. THIS JUST IN: IT DOESN'T.

Just because an injustice happens rarely does not mean we can simply ignore it and allow others to befall the same fate.

Tripping is a fundamentally anticompetitive element of gameplay which marginalizes player skill. If you have two competitors (Player A and Player B) player A is better than player B and beats him 90% of the time. For Player A tripping has no benefits if he gets an easy kill from player B tripping than it is irrelevant because he is a superior player and would win the majority of the matches without the help. Player B however gains an advantage from tripping due Player A tripping and getting killed causing a skew in results.

Triping allows inferior players to gain an unearned advantage.

Now I will continue to speak assuming you are going to respond with a trollish "THIS JUST IN:" "I DON'T CARE."

While this may not matter to you many players have invested large portions of time into brawl and perfecting their skills in it. To allow tripping when it can be easily removed would be an insult to their efforts and an act of charity towards those who do not try as hard to succeed.

In regards to the "why stop here why not go all the way" train of thought I would like to point out that those rebalanced games are entirely different games. Telling people to simply go all the way is the same as telling them if they don't like tripping they should go play street fighter. Obviously they are different games however brawl and brawl without tripping are in essence and in practicality the same game and an abandonment of all past training is not necessary to continue competition at a upper metagame level.

I don't want to delve into hyperbole, but you get the point. On the other hand, I'm sure I can find at least one person here that would object to fixing everything I said...except tripping. That one is and always will be the first to go...what goes after is certainly still up in the air.

There is a thing called discretion, we are able to take a step in one direction without going all the way. To compare the inaccuracy of the all or nothing mentality to real life I will relate it to gay marriage. I once had a conversation with a particularly dim classmate, I stated that I feel that Homosexuals have a right to marriage as it is tied to a government institute and not just religion. He responded by saying if we allow men to marry men we are going to get into a trend of allowing anyone to marry anything and soon people will be getting married to trees.

Obviously we are able to make a small change without changing everything.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

Why is P:M scrubby??? Melee was harder than brawl (no disrespect) so doesn't that make it less scrubby?

I'm really getting tired of your scrub *** calling everything you don't like scrubby when in reality you are a random SCRUB yourself. Have you ever even been to a tourny before? Ever placed well in Brawl? Do you even know how to L cancel?

Honestly, I think I would get back into Brawl if tripping was gone.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My 2 cents.

Tripping really does happen very rarely. The effects it has on a game are extremely low. Yes, some random moments come out of it, but often times they are minimal. Heck, sometimes you can even be saved when in a CG. People would love it when Falco trips when he is CGing you.

If you are going to such lengths to ban a chance moment, then you might as well ban Peach's ability to get bom-ombs, swords or saturns. Or even DDD's ability to get gordos. Peach getting a bom-omb that can kill at 60% against anyone is way more hax than a trip that requires someone to be close enough to take advantage of it to it's fullest ability.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

It is your fault for tripping into Ike's f-smash.

@sunshade, saying brawl and brawl w/o tripping are essentially the same games is telling me that you think tripping isn't a big deal anyway, so what's the point? Waste of time.

Adding more paragraphs to a silly argument is pointless. Again, top players don't complain and act like crybabies toward this stuff, and they have put more time and effort into the game than anyone else.

I'm assuming you guys are pro-ban toward cause if your not this is ********...

Edit: @ETWIST, man that was a troll joke, my bad. While I don't care about P:M if it helps people sleep at night to make it then moar power to them.

 

[sunshade]

It is your fault for tripping into Ike's f-smash.

@sunshade, saying brawl and brawl w/o tripping are essentially the same games is telling me that you think tripping isn't a big deal anyway, so what's the point? Waste of time.

Adding more paragraphs to a silly argument is pointless. Again, top players don't complain and act like crybabies toward this stuff, and they have put more time and effort into the game than anyone else.

I'm assuming you guys are pro-ban toward cause if your not this is ********...

I am not saying that it is not a big deal, I am saying that you do not require a time investment to relearn how to play brawl should tripping be removed. Tripping infringes on the competitive integrity of the Brawl by unfairly rewarding lesser players.

Tripping is rare, I wont say it is not, but that does not mean we should simply allow it. There was a time when murders were rare that does not mean we should have simply said suck it up because it was so rare it didn't make a difference.

 

[Eddie G]

@ GunmasterLombardi- Right, and you can suddenly read top players' minds now and have the ability to speak for them all?

Tripping is anti-competitive and was added by Sakurai to troll the competitive smashers. That's all there is to it. I'm for a removal and always have been. It serves no purpose other than to grant an un-earned momentary advantage to the opponent.

 

[hankydysplasia]

I'm glad people mentioned BBrawl. It's a shame Balance Brawl didn't catch on more, and they had to digress into some each-character-gets-a-supermove sidegame. They had clearly laid out principles that fix a lot of the problems in Brawl. If you're not going to play 100% vanilla, it's just as easy to play Balanced and you even out the cast while keeping the spirit of the game and about 99% of the same moves.

However, despite what I think were weak arguments in the OP, I think no tripping is better than tripping, if that is the only change made.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'm puzzled.

Why did you compare tripping to murders? Murders are serious, this isn't.

Edit: @KBizzle, no, but I'm definately a better player like them.

 

[Dekar173]

Better players are smarter.

They know better. They know the risks of things. They never force themselves into a position where they HAVE to dash, giving a chance of tripping. I even use Sonic a lot and I don't get screwed into tripping unless it was some random decision when I wasn't even in a tournament match.

Edit: Thank you, Maestro.

lmao!

I am a top player buddy!

Tripping limits the options of players automatically by disallowing dashing (through ADDING to the costs of doing so) by giving you the potential to trip for inputting something onto your controller.

It's pointless, and panders to the lesser players.

 

[hippiedude92]

i hate tripping, it sad to see insanely hyped clutch matchs that result in a gay trip. plus a ****ing trip screams for losing momentum matchs ( go look up ne0 vs allyy) and free tech chasing and some loss of stage control.

get that tripping business outta this ****

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, no one should have replied to that OP; it's full of nothing but strawman arguments that I've NEVER seen used in an actual tripping debate.

The only thing in that OP that wasn't a blatant attempt to set up a sh*tty argument for the sole purpose of knocking it down was the "hacking feasibility" argument, which is a legitimate argument because then we have the risk of having codes be active that are unrelated to tripping (like someone loading a 1% damage buff to Falcon code that would be hard to track, giving people advantages).

This has been gone over a thousand times... hacking Wiis is not technically legal (even though it should be) and will never be a tournament standard.

 

[Eddie G]

Edit: @KBizzle, no, but I'm definately a better player like them.

I doubt it. You're a purist who came in here with a dismissive mindset instead of an open mind, and purists in this case are annoying.

@ Dekar is a top player, Dekar is voicing his opinion against tripping, your logic just got ***** and bent over for another go.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I dont know where you got that from, but the old trip rate modifier code definitely didnt differentiate between characters...it was certainly global

======

And the problem with this thread is, indeed, why would you stop at tripping? Why indeed, when you can add cosmetic (custom team textures for sonic!) and non-gameplay (unlimited-length replays!) codes. And how about the Triple Jump Glitch? Nobody likes that thing...but we can fix that. Samus' pummel not being able to hit Bowser - an obvious glitch with an easy fix. Sheik's game-freezing Chain Glitch? Infinite Dimensional Cape? Nana teleporting? All gone. How about not fastfalling when pressing the c-stick down in midair? Who wouldn't like getting that control back?

I'm not going to mention changing charactes for the sake of balance, or changing mechanics for the sake of gameplay, because then you really hit the slippery slope. However, making the Mother Boys impervious to grab release shenanigans sounds nice, eh?

I don't want to delve into hyperbole, but you get the point. On the other hand, I'm sure I can find at least one person here that would object to fixing everything I said...except tripping. That one is and always will be the first to go...what goes after is certainly still up in the air.

Let's try to avoid argumentative fallacies please :/

No one is suggesting the changing of anything else but tripping, and to bring up those other points simply detracts from the main idea. Bringing up a hypothetical situation where in other changes are made does not accurately argue against the simple suggestion being presented here.

I agree with some (not most) of the things in the OP, and do feel removing this simple random element is much more akin to removing random item appearances. However, to argue against removing any random element due to it happening randomly seems faulty in and of itself.

Tripping should be banned, simply for the sake of its existence making one of the most basic forms of movement in the series be punished by itself. Dashing and running already have few options out of them- tripping makes the action also have a chance of putting you into a state even more limited, not of the will of the person using the action.

The only thing I can see as being even close to tripping's effects would be if a move (Let's call it "Little Mac's up-B") had a 1 in 10 chance of not leaving the ground as its supposed to, and instead causing a character (Let's call them "Little Mac") to immediately enter a 60 frame helpless state at ground level.

Now, luckily no such move exists in the smash Bros. series, but if it did, and it caused that character to randomly go into 60 frame helplessness instead of recovering, would it be considered the player's fault for trying to use the move even though he knows it has a chance not to work?

And yes, I'm aware that in order for the person to be having to recover they would have to be for some reason off stage, either of their own fault for going there, or of their fault in playing be being knocked off. This example is simply for the sake of them being in that situation and their choices in such situation, not what happened before hand. Just pretend that every character starts off the match having to recover from the side of the the blast zone if you have to, it's a hypothetical in the first place so why the hell not.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

lmao!

I am a top player buddy!

Tripping limits the options of players automatically by disallowing dashing (through ADDING to the costs of doing so) by giving you the potential to trip for inputting something onto your controller.

It's pointless, and panders to the lesser players.

I know you are, but interestingly I was hesistant in mentioning it... Maybe everyone ELSE could just adapt?

Seriously, tripping is such a minor thing. Again, you (a better player) aren't consistently losing matches because of it. Removing tripping could potentially make the average player worse than I assume they would be w/ it in cause you are staying aware of less and are prepared to deal w/ less.

Edit: Thank you, Jack

 

[gamesuxcard]

Didn't dekar lose a match at pound due to tripping right before the timer ran out?