Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

They'd be invincible (Link with Magic Armor, Kirby as Stone, Gan0ndorf being himself

Ah. Well, from Sonic's perspective, he could easily just tap them to deal infinite damage, since the speed would be the same from his opponent's perspective (from one place to another in no time at all). Time freezing is confusing...

How do you know that, there weren't any chaos emeralds in THAT game, and Sonic doesn't need to be Super Sonic to freeze time, he could also use Caliburn the same way

True, but I'm just playing it safe. Also, I was going with Super Sonic more for the invincibility, rather than time freezing. Good point with Caliburn, though.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Well, he's able to smash through multiple robots with his fist without flinching, so it shouldn't hurt too much. Unless there's something I'm missing here?

Ah. Well, from Sonic's perspective, he could easily just tap them to deal infinite damage, since the speed would be the same from his opponent's perspective (from one place to another in no time at all). Time freezing is confusing...

Like you can't one hit kill 90% of robots with a plastic bubble wand.

 

[Munomario777]

Like you can't one hit kill 90% of robots with a plastic bubble wand.

Um... okay?

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I calculated that, going from Mach 2 (even though I don't think she can necessarily go that fast to begin with, but whatever) to a standstill in .1 seconds (I used this for both calculations, since zero seconds obviously wouldn't work), Samus with the Power Suit on (weighing approximately 318 pounds) would experience approximately 121.62 tons of force. I also calculated that Sonic, at 19 pounds, ramming into someone at 99% of the speed of light, would deal around 12009971.75 tons of force. Of course, let me know if I'm missing something/made a mistake.
(I didn't take into account smaller impact surfaces, since Sonic has impact forces that are smaller than 3/4 of an inch anyway, namely his spikes on the back of his head.)

You need to use the equation for kinetic energy in order to find the impact force. Samus doesn't weigh 318 lb. and Sonic doesn't weigh 19 lb. At least not according to the information from their series. You'll need to show me the math you used to get these numbers.

 

[Nerdicon]

Ah. Well, from Sonic's perspective, he could easily just tap them to deal infinite damage, since the speed would be the same from his opponent's perspective (from one place to another in no time at all). Time freezing is confusing...

But the force as you mentioned yourself would be the same, so that doesn't get around Newton's Law (what did I do to end up using physics while talking about games?)

 

[Nerdicon]

So quick question for you guys, what happens if someone teleports right as time is frozen? Would they avoid the time freeze? Get trapped in some sort of pocket dimension. Break the world? I NEEDZ ANSWERS

 

[Munomario777]

You need to use the equation for kinetic energy in order to find the impact force. Samus doesn't weigh 318 lb. and Sonic doesn't weigh 19 lb. At least not according to the information from their series. You'll need to show me the math you used to get these numbers.

My apologies. The Samus weight figure was based on estimates I found while doing research (I couldn't find an official weight for Power Suit Samus), and I was really tired when I did that Sonic one. :I Anyway, calculating with Sonic's official weight and http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html, Sonic ramming into an opponent at light speed would equate to about 1,572,821,562,789,430,800 joules, or 176,792,176,600,000 tons of force, at the point of impact. Knowing me, though, my math is probably way off, so I won't risk it anymore with trying to calculate Samus.

But the force as you mentioned yourself would be the same, so that doesn't get around Newton's Law (what did I do to end up using physics while talking about games?)

Well, again, from Sonic's perspective, he would be slightly nudging the opponent, but the opponent would be damaged severely. This is tricky, since in the real world, time changes with space, gravity, and the like, and two people right next to each other usually don't have time flowing at speeds this drastically different.

So quick question for you guys, what happens if someone teleports right as time is frozen? Would they avoid the time freeze? Get trapped in some sort of pocket dimension. Break the world? I NEEDZ ANSWERS

Seeing as how there's no limit to how small a unit of time can be (1/9999999999999999999999... of a second), it's highly unlikely that that would even happen. If it did happen, the teleporter would probably just appear where they were teleporting to, unless it was delayed teleportation (or teleportation + time travel), in which case they would essentially disappear until time was unfrozen and they appeared at the destination.

 

[Crystanium]

My apologies. The Samus weight figure was based on estimates I found while doing research (I couldn't find an official weight for Power Suit Samus), and I was really tired when I did that Sonic one. :I Anyway, calculating with Sonic's official weight and http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html, Sonic ramming into an opponent at light speed would equate to about 1,572,821,562,789,430,800 joules, or 176,792,176,600,000 tons of force, at the point of impact. Knowing me, though, my math is probably way off, so I won't risk it anymore with trying to calculate Samus.

The equation for kinetic energy is different from relativistic kinetic energy. Kinetic energy gives you joules. Force gives you newtons. The former can be understood as newton meters (N m), whereas the latter can be understood as kilogram meters per second squared (kg m/s^2). In order to find the amount of newtons from newton meters, you need to divide it by the distance covered. However, what you'd need to work with is relativistic kinetic energy and relativistic momentum. I've done the latter already.

 

[Munomario777]

The equation for kinetic energy is different from relativistic kinetic energy. Kinetic energy gives you joules. Force gives you newtons. The former can be understood as newton meters (N m), whereas the latter can be understood as kilogram meters per second squared (kg m/s^2). In order to find the amount of newtons from newton meters, you need to divide it by the distance covered. However, what you'd need to work with is relativistic kinetic energy and relativistic momentum. I've done the latter already.

I'll just leave the math to you, then. XD I do find it unlikely that Samus's could survive a light-speed, razor-sharp spike headed directly for her, though.

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, again, from Sonic's perspective, he would be slightly nudging the opponent, but the opponent would be damaged severely. This is tricky, since in the real world, time changes with space, gravity, and the like, and two people right next to each other usually don't have time flowing at speeds this drastically different.

Not necessarily, Sonic is still applying the same amount of force, just in a different fashion. If there is evidence that Sonic can survive an attack that powerful, than he would be immune to any forms of blunt force.

Seeing as how there's no limit to how small a unit of time can be (1/9999999999999999999999... of a second), it's highly unlikely that that would even happen. If it did happen, the teleporter would probably just appear where they were teleporting to, unless it was delayed teleportation (or teleportation + time travel), in which case they would essentially disappear until time was unfrozen and they appeared at the destination.

Let's say we have vs who should have the same or extremely similar reaction time (Sonic has to be fast enough to react at lightspeed, MK needs to be fast enough to act out of a teleport) say the first thing sonic does is freeze time while MK tries to teleport, MK is moving to his destination when time stops, so he's pretty much not on the plane of existence that Sonic's on. I think (assuming teleportation is traveling from point A to point C through point B) MK would be unaffected. At least if you think of teleportation like I do

 

[Crystanium]

I'll just leave the math to you, then. XD I do find it unlikely that Samus's could survive a light-speed, razor-sharp spike headed directly for her, though.

Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way for Samus to overcome this. My only thought would be a power bomb, but until Samus is given an ability for her to travel at light speed, she's always going to have trouble with enemies traveling near or at light speed.

 

[Munomario777]

Not necessarily, Sonic is still applying the same amount of force, just in a different fashion. If there is evidence that Sonic can survive an attack that powerful, than he would be immune to any forms of blunt force.

This is complicated... From Sonic's perspective, he's barely hitting the opponent with any speed (assuming he decides to do so), but from the opponent's perspective, he's traveling at an infinite speed, due to the time differences. There's really no real-world science to apply here, since time freezing doesn't happen in real life. Also, Sonic uses the Light Speed Attack/Dash, hits something, and takes no damage, if that's what you mean.

Let's say we have vs who should have the same or extremely similar reaction time (Sonic has to be fast enough to react at lightspeed, MK needs to be fast enough to act out of a teleport) say the first thing sonic does is freeze time while MK tries to teleport, MK is moving to his destination when time stops, so he's pretty much not on the plane of existence that Sonic's on. I think (assuming teleportation is traveling from point A to point C through point B) MK would be unaffected. At least if you think of teleportation like I do

Unless it has a delay, teleportation is going from one place to another in no time at all. Otherwise, it's either a form of time travel (the delay is the amount of time they "skip") or it's through some sort of alternate dimension (or something similar). If there is no delay, the teleported would still exist from the time freezer's perspective. If there is, they would be "gone" during the delay.

Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way for Samus to overcome this. My only thought would be a power bomb, but until Samus is given an ability for her to travel at light speed, she's always going to have trouble with enemies traveling near or at light speed.

Yeah. We should also take into account what she has been damaged by; I'm sure there's at least one instance where Samus has been damaged by either a sharp object or a fast-moving one.

After writing this, I noticed that we both began by saying "Yeah."

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Two words.
FAAAAALLLLLCCCCOOOOONNNNNNNN.....
PPPPPPAAAAAUUUUUNNNNNCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHH!

But in all seriousness, Ganon, mewtwo, and Super Sonic (who fought a world destroying entity in 2006) take my top spots.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Response in quotes.

I would have added some more, such as golden gauntlets, but I got to that point where I just wanted to post it instead of continuing. I didn't have Link using the four swords because he's only wielding one sword and one shield.

Well I don't see why he can't have two sword sheaths...


Why would Link wear magic cape for three days? Why wouldn't he wear magic armor for three days? Say Link uses magic cape and then Pit uses transparency. What will Link think? Will he think it's a good idea to not use his magic cape? Then using auto-reticle or even weak point reticle in conjunction with instant death attack would definitely be an issue for Link.

Because, like I said in the post:
Magic Armor: Makes Link invincible
Magic Cape: Makes Link Invincible, intangible and invisible.
Magic Cap does everything Magic Armor does and more. Also Link can use Lens of truth to see invisible Pit.


Because I wasn't working with relativistic mass.

Oh.

Sure, if I allow impact force into the Metroidverse. This would mean if Samus is flying supersonic speed, and if I just went with Mach 1.2, then using the equation for kinetic energy, Samus would produce 7,623,655.2 newton meters. Crashing into something with an impact distance of say 3/4 of an inch, or 0.019 meters, then she'll experience 400,187,007.68 newtons, or 44,983 tons of force. However, if I went with Mach 2, then Sonic wouldn't be able to harm Samus, who would then be able to withstand 124,952.83 tons of force.
1) Why would Samus be moving at mach speed when Super Sonic can freeze time?
2) By flying at Mach Speed, are you referring to Samus's speed booster?

Well, there's no explicit time limit for Chaos Control stated in the games, AFAIK.

That's mostly because he was being careless; the opening to Sonic 3 was more of a joyride than an intense battle scene, where he would naturally be more alert.

Yea I'm not sure what Chaos Control's time limit is either but if I recall it's never used in cutscenes to actually attack, so we really don't know. Nerdicon mentioned that in separate games it would freeze time for 10 seconds. Just for the sake of having a limit, I'd say we should just multiply it by 7 (since I don't believe they used more than 1 emerald) and say Sonic can freeze time for 70 seconds at a time.

So quick question for you guys, what happens if someone teleports right as time is frozen? Would they avoid the time freeze? Get trapped in some sort of pocket dimension. Break the world? I NEEDZ ANSWERS

I think it depends on the type of teleportation. Some kinds of teleportation are really just a character moving at FTL or near light speed, so depending on when Sonic froze time, it's possible the teleporter wouldn't have necessarily be at their destination yet.
On the other hand some characters like Meta Knight and Link (when using Faroe's wind) seem to phase out of existence and doesn't seem to be instant, so they'd be safe from Sonic if he froze time just as they disappeared but before they reappeared.

Yeah. We should also take into account what she has been damaged by; I'm sure there's at least one instance where Samus has been damaged by either a sharp object or a fast-moving one.

She's ben damaged by sharp objects before. If she jumps on a Geemer [http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091213130743/metroid/images/2/26/Geemer_rip.png] or a Zoomer, they hurt her. The space Pirates claws have serrated, sharp "teeth", plus the Space Pirates (in Prime) have blades below their elbow for an arm.
Weavel from Metroid Prime Hunters had a sharp, big blade that could cut her.

As for fast moving objects, there have been enemies that charged her fast and hurt her, but the only one I can think of is something that hangs off of the roof and jumps off to fly at you. Obviously, none of those are in the same universe as Sonic speed wise. Same goes for the spiky-ness above, although the gap is smaller.

 

[Munomario777]

Yea I'm not sure what Chaos Control's time limit is either but if I recall it's never used in cutscenes to actually attack, so we really don't know. Nerdicon mentioned that in separate games it would freeze time for 10 seconds. Just for the sake of having a limit, I'd say we should just multiply it by 7 (since I don't believe they used more than 1 emerald) and say Sonic can freeze time for 70 seconds at a time.

(It's also used in Team Dark's Team Blast from Heroes, but I thought this was more to-the-point.)
Anyway, I think 70 seconds sounds good.

I think it depends on the type of teleportation. Some kinds of teleportation are really just a character moving at FTL or near light speed, so depending on when Sonic froze time, it's possible the teleporter wouldn't have necessarily be at their destination yet.
On the other hand some characters like Meta Knight and Link (when using Farore's wind) seem to phase out of existence and doesn't seem to be instant, so they'd be safe from Sonic if he froze time just as they disappeared but before they reappeared.

Pretty much.

She's been damaged by sharp objects before. If she jumps on a Geemer [http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091213130743/metroid/images/2/26/Geemer_rip.png] or a Zoomer, they hurt her. The space Pirates claws have serrated, sharp "teeth", plus the Space Pirates (in Prime) have blades below their elbow for an arm.
Weavel from Metroid Prime Hunters had a sharp, big blade that could cut her.

As for fast moving objects, there have been enemies that charged her fast and hurt her, but the only one I can think of is something that hangs off of the roof and jumps off to fly at you. Obviously, none of those are in the same universe as Sonic speed wise. Same goes for the spiky-ness above, although the gap is smaller.

Yeah. I haven't played a Metroid game myself, but seeing how common these types of hazard are in gaming, I imagined there would be some instance of it happening. Thanks for finding some examples.

 

[Nerdicon]

Is anyone here a Mother expert, I need Ness knowledge for match-ups. Anyway here's a different match-up I've done

vs
At first this seems like an uphill battle for Kirby because Young Link is invincible for 3 days with a giant arsenal of items. Despite Young Link's numerous advantages Kirby has a few pros. Mirror Kirby when he guards (let's not forget when he guards he is pretty much invincible) reflects all projectiles, pretty much forcing Link to get up close. Next Kirby has pretty good durability, enough to get crushed by a several ton monster several times and be barely phased. But all the same Kirby still can't do any damage, so he can't win right? Heh heh, WRONG! There's one more big trick up Kirby's non-existent sleeves, HYPERNOVA!!!
Young Link is just barely small enough to be eaten by hypernova (under 5 feet) and anything that gets eaten by Kirby is pretty much dead.
Winner:

 

[Aninymouse]

If Sonic punched someone at light speed, his entire arm would probably explode. Not the best idea. Let's put aside the fact that it's impossible to have a living organism in real world physics achieve that sort of speed on foot, let alone survive such speeds. If Sonic's body is so near incomprehensibly strong, powerful, and lithe such that he can not only achieve light speed travel but survive it, what is going to hurt him at all? That is a godlike level of durability and power that we have no frame of reference for in our physical world. So you see, Sonic's abilities, if they include light speed travel, are nonsensical and illogical to begin with. No sense even breaking out the calculus.

Also, even if he could reach such speeds, he can't accelerate instantly to that level. It's not physically possible, and if he had a level of power high enough to launch himself instantly at light speed, the ground he was standing on and the surrounding atmosphere could very well be vaporized, to say nothing of resulting shockwaves or other vacuum phenomena. In other words, Sonic needs a long running start. The opponent would have a while to target him from afar before he hit top speed.

TL;DR Sonic at light speed is bullcrap.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Is anyone here a Mother expert, I need Ness knowledge for match-ups.

He has a baseball bat, defeated a universal being with the help of a few others, and knows the following PSI.

• PSI Flash: From SSB.
• PSI Rockin': Powerful waves of psychokinetic energy.
• Lifeup: Heals up to 500 damage.
• Teleport: Pretty self-explanatory.
• Hypnosis: Has chance of putting opponent to sleep.
• Healing: Heals status ailments.

 

[Munomario777]

If Sonic punched someone at light speed, his entire arm would probably explode. Not the best idea. Let's put aside the fact that it's impossible to have a living organism in real world physics achieve that sort of speed on foot, let alone survive such speeds. If Sonic's body is so near incomprehensibly strong, powerful, and lithe such that he can not only achieve light speed travel but survive it, what is going to hurt him at all? That is a godlike level of durability and power that we have no frame of reference for in our physical world. So you see, Sonic's abilities, if they include light speed travel, are nonsensical and illogical to begin with. No sense even breaking out the calculus.

Not necessarily punch; more like ram into at light speed in the form of a razor-sharp spinning ball of spikes. I agree that we should ignore the fact that it's impossible in real life, since it isn't real life to begin with. Sonic isn't the only one with abilities that make no sense in the real world. Mario, by touching a feather and wearing a yellow cape, can fly indefinitely. Link has all sorts of items that don't make sense if we apply real life physics (the Hookshot, for example, would rip his arm off IRL). Samus has quite a bit of technology that breaks our laws of physics (for example, she can crash into a wall with the Speed Booster and not take any damage, and that's said to travel at supersonic speeds). Shulk has a lightsaber (or at least a sword containing one) that can only hurt robots. Not to mention all of the Pokemon abilities.
Games aren't real life. Therefore, there's no reason to use real-life physics when they contradict lore or in-game events. Lore overrides in-game events (usually due to hardware limitations not being able to fully convey lore properly in-game, such as light-speed travel being too fast for our eyes to see), and both override real-life physics (again, games aren't real life).

Also, even if he could reach such speeds, he can't accelerate instantly to that level. It's not physically possible, and if he had a level of power high enough to launch himself instantly at light speed, the ground he was standing on and the surrounding atmosphere could very well be vaporized, to say nothing of resulting shockwaves or other vacuum phenomena. In other words, Sonic needs a long running start. The opponent would have a while to target him from afar before he hit top speed.

He can. It's called the Light Speed Attack, where he launches off from a standstill at light speed, homing in towards an enemy (in midair, even!). It's basically the attack variant of the Light Speed Dash. The Light Speed Attack (and Dash) travelling at light speed is lore, which overrides the in-game events (due to hardware limitations, as stated above), both of which override real-life physics. Also, I don't see why everything would be vaporized even if we were taking real-life physics into account; feel free to elaborate.

TL;DR Sonic at light speed is bullcrap.

TL;DR Sonic (or other games) isn't real life. Sonic (or other games) doesn't have real-life physics. Therefore, Sonic's speed (or other things in other games) shouldn't be measured by real-life physics when the lore directly states otherwise.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

^Disregarding all real-life physics invalidates like half this thread. Some of your posts included, I believe.

Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Samus is nigh-invulnerable while Screw Attacking (I don't know if she still takes environmental damage, since the Screw Attack is after the Gravity Suit in Super Metroid, I think she still takes damage from the super-hot lava though). And with the Space Jump, she can Screw Attack indefinitely. So add another character to the "this character can basically be invincible" list.

 

[Crystanium]

Well I don't see why he can't have two sword sheaths...

He could, but then he'd also give up protecting himself with an indestructible shield.

Because, like I said in the post:
Magic Armor: Makes Link invincible
Magic Cape: Makes Link Invincible, intangible and invisible.
Magic Cap does everything Magic Armor does and more. Also Link can use Lens of truth to see invisible Pit.

The problem is if Link is using one magic thing, he's incapable of using another. If Link is using Nayru's Love, he can't even using the lens of truth. This happens in OoT and MM. I'm not sure if it's been in other Zelda games. I take it if Link is using magic cape, other magic abilities cannot be used. Am I wrong on this? I don't have ALttP on me anymore. I never bothered testing this like I tested to see if Link can outrun his own arrows, a claim someone made before, which I doubted until I tried.

1) Why would Samus be moving at mach speed when Super Sonic can freeze time?
2) By flying at Mach Speed, are you referring to Samus's speed booster?

She wouldn't. My point was demonstrating that applying physics would really make Samus tough to kill. I'm referring to the shinespark when Samus is flying at supersonic speeds.

She's ben damaged by sharp objects before. If she jumps on a Geemer [http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091213130743/metroid/images/2/26/Geemer_rip.png] or a Zoomer, they hurt her. The space Pirates claws have serrated, sharp "teeth", plus the Space Pirates (in Prime) have blades below their elbow for an arm.
Weavel from Metroid Prime Hunters had a sharp, big blade that could cut her.

As for fast moving objects, there have been enemies that charged her fast and hurt her, but the only one I can think of is something that hangs off of the roof and jumps off to fly at you. Obviously, none of those are in the same universe as Sonic speed wise. Same goes for the spiky-ness above, although the gap is smaller.

Keep in mind that what people might consider "canon fodder" are pretty dangerous in the Metroidverse. War Wasps have stingers capable of shearing steel, Hydlings have teeth capable of piercing metal. Kraid's claws can shred iron. These spikes won't harm Samus if she steps or runs into. They have to be on, which means there's something else about these spikes that will harm Samus. Using the formula to find the volume of a cone, I'll need to know the radius and height. Since Samus is only touching the top and not its entirety, that means the radius is 2.209302325581398 cm. and the height is 2.209302325581398 cm. Using V = pi r^2 h/3, I end up with a volume of 5.11138880451559 cm^3. Taking the force of the shinespark and dividing it by the volume, I end up with a pressure of 12.08 gigapascals.

The purpose of serrated blades it make it easier to cut through objects because the surface area is so tiny. So applying force over area will produce more pressure if the force is greater. So, yeah. I'm not sure how much pressure Sonic can produce and I'm not even sure if his hair is really as sharp as it's being made to seem.

Also, I don't see why everything would be vaporized even if we were taking real-life physics into account; feel free to elaborate.

Air molecules are too slow to get out of the way. When an object begins to approach Mach 1, air molecules have a harder time avoiding the object traveling at sonic speed. This is why at supersonic speed, a cone is formed. When an object begins traveling at hypersonic speed, it will begin to heat up the air, so if an object is even travelin 10% the speed of light, things will begin to explode. This is why I think Sonic becomes massless for a brief time. Otherwise, everything around him would blow up. Sonic would essentially be producing his own nuclear explosion.

 

[Crystanium]

Oops. Accidental double post.

 

[Munomario777]

^Disregarding all real-life physics invalidates like half this thread. Some of your posts included, I believe.

What I meant by that was, if lore says something, then real-life physics can't be used as an argument against the lore. For instance, using Mario breaking bricks to determine the strength of his punch is valid, since lore doesn't contradict it. However, saying that the Super Mushroom isn't canon because mushrooms don't do that in real life isn't valid, since the gameplay shows otherwise. Likewise, saying that Bowser canonically didn't turn the Toads into things in Super Mario Bros. (it's in the instruction manual) because that couldn't happen in real life is also invalid, since the lore says otherwise.
TL;DR I'm not saying that we should ignore real life physics; I'm just saying that it shouldn't take priority over lore and in-game events when those clearly state otherwise.

Keep in mind that what people might consider "canon fodder" are pretty dangerous in the Metroidverse. War Wasps have stingers capable of shearing steel, Hydlings have teeth capable of piercing metal. Kraid's claws can shred iron. These spikes won't harm Samus if she steps or runs into. They have to be on, which means there's something else about these spikes that will harm Samus. Using the formula to find the volume of a cone, I'll need to know the radius and height. Since Samus is only touching the top and not its entirety, that means the radius is 2.209302325581398 cm. and the height is 2.209302325581398 cm. Using V = pi r^2 h/3, I end up with a volume of 5.11138880451559 cm^3. Taking the force of the shinespark and dividing it by the volume, I end up with a pressure of 12.08 gigapascals.

The 16-bit graphics for "those spikes" make it kind of hard to tell whether they're sharp spikes or just blunt cones containing some other property (such as electric shockers, for example, which would explain why they have to be "on"). Also, the fact that Samus has been hurt by the three instances of spikes you mentioned kind of shows that she can be hurt by spikes (three clear examples to one unclear example).

The purpose of serrated blades it make it easier to cut through objects because the surface area is so tiny. So applying force over area will produce more pressure if the force is greater. So, yeah. I'm not sure how much pressure Sonic can produce and I'm not even sure if his hair is really as sharp as it's being made to seem.

Sonic can make his quills sharp or floppy at will (as I pointed out in my Sonic overview post). A good example of this is his Up Throw in Smash; he throws the opponent up, hardens his quills, and damages the opponent with them. It's not the only time he's used this, of course (he uses this property to turn into a spiky spinball all the time), but it's one of the clearest examples out there.

Air molecules are too slow to get out of the way. When an object begins to approach Mach 1, air molecules have a harder time avoiding the object traveling at sonic speed. This is why at supersonic speed, a cone is formed. When an object begins traveling at hypersonic speed, it will begin to heat up the air, so if an object is even travelin 10% the speed of light, things will begin to explode. This is why I think Sonic becomes massless for a brief time. Otherwise, everything around him would blow up. Sonic would essentially be producing his own nuclear explosion.

Ah, interesting. Applying this, my best guess is that he either becomes massless for the majority of the attack and then restores his mass the moment he attacks (since it still damages enemies, which a massless object wouldn't quite do), he has some way to manipulate the air so that this doesn't happen (he does have other wind-type attacks, after all, such as the Blue Tornado and the Sonic Wind), or it's just another case of video game physics being radically different from ours.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Is anyone here a Mother expert, I need Ness knowledge for match-ups. Anyway here's a different match-up I've done

vs
At first this seems like an uphill battle for Kirby because Young Link is invincible for 3 days with a giant arsenal of items. Despite Young Link's numerous advantages Kirby has a few pros. Mirror Kirby when he guards (let's not forget when he guards he is pretty much invincible) reflects all projectiles, pretty much forcing Link to get up close. Next Kirby has pretty good durability, enough to get crushed by a several ton monster several times and be barely phased. But all the same Kirby still can't do any damage, so he can't win right? Heh heh, WRONG! There's one more big trick up Kirby's non-existent sleeves, HYPERNOVA!!!
Young Link is just barely small enough to be eaten by hypernova (under 5 feet) and anything that gets eaten by Kirby is pretty much dead.
Winner:

Not a Mother expert, but I think there was a thread like this several years ago where someone said that after defeating his evil inner self that he gained the power to create anything he wanted with his mind. Not sure about that.

And as for Kirby vs Young Link, when did we say he could swallow sometime over 5 times his size? Also I think Young Link can just start running when Pegasus boots before Kirby starts up hypernova, drop a bombchu to stop his swallowing, and then proceed on offense.

He could, but then he'd also give up protecting himself with an indestructible shield.

Except Link has carried multiple swords in a game before without needing to sacrifice his shield. So I disagree.


The problem is if Link is using one magic thing, he's incapable of using another. If Link is using Nayru's Love, he can't even using the lens of truth. This happens in OoT and MM. I'm not sure if it's been in other Zelda games. I take it if Link is using magic cape, other magic abilities cannot be used. Am I wrong on this? I don't have ALttP on me anymore. I never bothered testing this like I tested to see if Link can outrun his own arrows, a claim someone made before, which I doubted until I tried.

It depends on the particular magic item. Obviously if he using lens of truth he wouldn't be able to cast Nayru's Love, and vice versa. But Magic cape isn't something he needs to hold, it's just a cape. I don't recall how it functioned in game, but logically I see no reason he couldn't wear the cape and use something else. I have ALttP for GBA, but lost it and the one I have for the VC isn't complete so I can't really test it either.


She wouldn't. My point was demonstrating that applying physics would really make Samus tough to kill. I'm referring to the shinespark when Samus is flying at supersonic speeds.



Keep in mind that what people might consider "canon fodder" are pretty dangerous in the Metroidverse. War Wasps have stingers capable of shearing steel, Hydlings have teeth capable of piercing metal. Kraid's claws can shred iron. These spikes won't harm Samus if she steps or runs into. They have to be on, which means there's something else about these spikes that will harm Samus. Using the formula to find the volume of a cone, I'll need to know the radius and height. Since Samus is only touching the top and not its entirety, that means the radius is 2.209302325581398 cm. and the height is 2.209302325581398 cm. Using V = pi r^2 h/3, I end up with a volume of 5.11138880451559 cm^3. Taking the force of the shinespark and dividing it by the volume, I end up with a pressure of 12.08 gigapascals.

The purpose of serrated blades it make it easier to cut through objects because the surface area is so tiny. So applying force over area will produce more pressure if the force is greater. So, yeah. I'm not sure how much pressure Sonic can produce and I'm not even sure if his hair is really as sharp as it's being made to seem.

Well Samus can be hurt by the sharp objects on all of those creatures mentioned, and Sonic routinely beats up robots that are probably made of something at least as strong as iron. So I see no reason Sonic's spin/homing attack couldn't hurt Samus. Not to mention Super Sonic is powered by the Chaos Emeralds, so unlike Sonic he's not just relying on pure power/speed.

Air molecules are too slow to get out of the way. When an object begins to approach Mach 1, air molecules have a harder time avoiding the object traveling at sonic speed. This is why at supersonic speed, a cone is formed. When an object begins traveling at hypersonic speed, it will begin to heat up the air, so if an object is even travelin 10% the speed of light, things will begin to explode. This is why I think Sonic becomes massless for a brief time. Otherwise, everything around him would blow up. Sonic would essentially be producing his own nuclear explosion.

Or he just has an undefined secondary superpower because the creators don't/didn't are about physics and just wanted to give him the ability to move at light speed.

 

[Aninymouse]

This is why this whole thread frustrates and saddens me so much: not only is it an impossible task to definitively tier these characters through concensus, but attempting to do so just makes the characters, and the people advocating for them, look ridiculous.

If Sonic can travel at light speed from a dead start, has a body durability to survive that and sustain impact at such speed, and control his mass at will, then why even keep arguing? What good is Ganon's nigh-invincibility or Samus' pathetic Power Suit against an opponent that could in theory atomize them and the area they stand in at will? Sonic would even be too fast for Mewtwo to catch with his mind. Before Pokemon Trainer's Dialga, Palkia, or Arceus could do anything or be issued any sort of command, Sonic would just obliterate the world. Sonic would be like a supernatural god. Sonic wouldn't be able to breathe at light speed, but wouldn't need to since he's god. And yet, Sonic is notorious for drowning... I guess he's pretending to die for kicks? OR, the game creators contradict themselves with their own lore, exposing the humanity and fallibility of the creators, further invalidating any arguments made since there isn't even a rational platform of argument.

This is why this whole thread seems to have gone off in absolutely the wrong direction. Putting aside the childish, immature and insipid nature of the discussion itself, if you guys are going to consider all these characters at maximum lore power, you will and have delved into a level of absurdity that borders on pitiable. Some things in game lore are just stupid and wrong, even if the character creators themselves made it up. For instance, Pokemon Trainer's Magcargo, by virtue of being let out of its pokeball, according to game lore, is so hot that it is literally incomprehensible. The Earth would instantly be burned up in a fusion reaction and our solar system itself would likely be destroyed, but it's not even close to possible for something like this to happen, let alone for a living being of that size and power to exist outside a supernatural god-like realm. If Pokemon Trainer used Magcargo as it is described in the Pokedex, not only would every mortal being perish, but any immortal or supernatural being would be left in a burning fusion many times hotter than the theoretical surface of the sun.

See? This is just stupid. Logic and physics must inevitably be used, but these ideas and characters are illogical and supernatural, anyway. It's like trying to catch the moon by running after it: it's impossible, makes no sense, and makes you look silly.

So yeah, I'm done.

#shrekt

 

[Munomario777]

This is why this whole thread frustrates and saddens me so much: not only is it an impossible task too definitivelly tier these characters through concensus, but attempting to do so just makes the characters, and the people advocating for them, look ridiculous.

If Sonic can travel at light speed from a dead start, has a body durability to survive that and sustain impact at such speed, and control his mass at will, then why even keep arguing? What good is Ganon's nigh-invincibility or Samus' pathetic Power Suit against an opponent that could in theory atomize them and the area they stand in at will? Sonic would even be too fast for Mewtwo to catch with his mind. Before Pokemon Trainer's Dialga, Palkia, or Arceus could do anything or be issued any sort of command, Sonic would just obliterate the world. Sonic would be like a supernatural god.

This is why this whole thread seems to have gone off in absolutely the wrong direction. Putting aside the childish, immature and insipid nature of the discussion itself, if you guys are going to consider all these characters at maximum lore power, you will and have delved into a level of absurdity that borders on pitiable. Some things in game lore are just stupid and wrong, even if the character creators themselves made it up. For instance, Pokemon Trainer's Magcargo, by virtue of being let out of its pokeball, according to game lore, is so hot that it is literally incomprehensible. The Earth would instantly be burned up in a fusion reaction and our solar system itself would likely be destroyed, but it's not even close to possible for something like this to happen, let alone for a living being of that size and power to exist outside a supernatural god-like realm. If Pokemon Trainer used Magcargo as it is described in the Pokedex, not only would every mortal being perish, but any immortal or supernatural being would be left in a burning fusion many times hotter than the theoretical surface of the sun.

See? This is just stupid. Logic and physics must inevitably be used, but these ideas and characters are illogical and supernatural, anyway. It's like trying to catch the moon by running after it: it's impossible, makes no sense, and makes you look silly.

So yeah, I'm done.

Okay, bye.

 

[Nerdicon]

Not a Mother expert, but I think there was a thread like this several years ago where someone said that after defeating his evil inner self that he gained the power to create anything he wanted with his mind. Not sure about that.

And as for Kirby vs Young Link, when did we say he could swallow sometime over 5 times his size? Also I think Young Link can just start running when Pegasus boots before Kirby starts up hypernova, drop a bombchu to stop his swallowing, and then proceed on offense.

Actually, it's a little over 6 times Kirby's height with Hypernova, and Young Link doesn't have the Pegasus Boots.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You're all fools. It's obviously Jigglypuff.

Look at those eyes. LOOK AT THEM.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Actually, it's a little over 6 times Kirby's height with Hypernova, and Young Link doesn't have the Pegasus Boots.

Well you didn't answer my question about where it was said/shown he could swallow something 6x his height.

And what games are you considering Young Link from? Just OoT and MM?

 

[Nerdicon]

Well you didn't answer my question about where it was said/shown he could swallow something 6x his height.

And what games are you considering Young Link from? Just OoT and MM?

In Kirby Triple Deluxe, Kirby completely swallows Flowery Woods who's about 6x Kirby's height, and yes I consider Young Link the one from OoT and MM

 

[Reiga]

Well, When Kirby uses Hypernova on Flowery Woods he sucks up immediatly the leaves, leaving him at around 4x the size of Kirby, and seeing how he sucked straight away the leaves and took longer to suck the trunk, it's more like he can suck up 4 times his size plus 2 times his size, but with less weight.
Besides, Kirby takes a while to suck up something that size, wouldn't he be open for attacks? I counted how much it took to suck Flowery Woods and saw that it took 13 second, sure, he can be planted to the ground, but I think escaping could be an easy feat for someone who can travel at the speed of light and freeze time.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't read the Kirby versus Young Link when I made this comment, I was just talking about the power of the Hypernova, not the match.

 

[entezio]

Samus with the suit is pretty strong as for Ganondorf. Kirby too (even though I disagree with the outcome look at the kirby vs majin buu video on youtube) and Rosalina but I don't like including characters like her because they just do the most overpowered crap just to make the game more epic or something... idk how to explain it. It's just different from a character in a serious anime or in a comic book

 

[pupNapoleon]

You're all fools. It's obviously Jigglypuff.View attachment 34972 Look at those eyes. LOOK AT THEM.

You may have a point.
Doesn't she have an attack, like cute charm, that keeps opponents from wanting to cause her harm?
That it can even be innate, on contact.

So, if Sonic freezes time, and kills her, he instantly regrets it and reverses time.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

You may have a point.
Doesn't she have an attack, like cute charm, that keeps opponents from wanting to cause her harm?
That it can even be innate, on contact.

So, if Sonic freezes time, and kills her, he instantly regrets it and reverses time.

She is able to have the ability Cute Charm, which has a 30% chance of causing infatuation if attacked with a move that makes physical contact. Of course, if the attack OHKOs her it doesn't matter.

She can also actively use the move Attract, but I'm not sure if non-Pokémon would be affected anyway. Even if they were, it's only a 50% chance of being immobilized by love, and Jiggs may not be quick enough to use the move against Sonic. Her best chance is to hold a Focus Sash and hope for the 50%.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You may have a point.
Doesn't she have an attack, like cute charm, that keeps opponents from wanting to cause her harm?
That it can even be innate, on contact.

So, if Sonic freezes time, and kills her, he instantly regrets it and reverses time.

Well, if she used Cute Charm Sonic wouldn't even be able to attack her because he'd be too infatuated with her. It's not a move that requires contact, all Jigglypuff has to do is simply look at him and he falls for it. I don't even think Jigglypuff could technically BE killed, just deflated. Of course, nothing would be stopping her from simply Puffing herself back up. I imagine she'd be vulnerable during that time, and Sonic could just freeze her and keep her there, but there's really not much he can do if he falls under Cute Charm, cause Jiggly could just put him to sleep and end him. Anybody for that matter.

 

[pupNapoleon]

She is able to have the ability Cute Charm, which has a 30% chance of causing infatuation if attacked with a move that makes physical contact. Of course, if the attack OHKOs her it doesn't matter.

She can also actively use the move Attract, but I'm not sure if non-Pokémon would be affected anyway. Even if they were, it's only a 50% chance of being immobilized by love, and Jiggs may not be quick enough to use the move against Sonic. Her best chance is to hold a Focus Sash and hope for the 50%.

Cute charm, then.
We are assuming all the characters are at optimal statistic, if we are assuming they are at optimal weaponry, etc.
And we are also applying all in world balance checks where applicable.

Therefore, it does work on non Pokemon (sonic), and it does hit, so when he strikes her, he is infatuated, and reverses time.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Cute charm, then.
We are assuming all the characters are at optimal statistic, if we are assuming they are at optimal weaponry, etc.
And we are also applying all in world balance checks where applicable.

Therefore, it does work on non Pokemon (sonic), and it does hit, so when he strikes her, he is infatuated, and reverses time.

What if Jiggly uses Puff Up and just falls on everybody. Only people fast enough to move or people who can teleport would escape. She's been overlooked so far, but Jiggly might actually have a chance to win. I mean that, combined with Sing and Cute Charm would be a pretty ****ing lethal combination. Let's assume Jigglypuff is outmatched, she could simply fly above the competition and wait for the last man standing to emerge, and put him to sleep, since he's most likely going to be fatigued. Couldn't she just destroy the weaker ones with Moon Blast and Flamethrower? Jigglypuff is pretty ****ing dangerous when you think about it. We're assuming Sonic has all 7 Emeralds?

 

[pupNapoleon]

What if Jiggly uses Puff Up and just falls on everybody. Only people fast enough to move or people who can teleport would escape. She's been overlooked so far, but Jiggly might actually have a chance to win. I mean that, combined with Sing and Cute Charm would be a pretty ****ing lethal combination. Let's assume Jigglypuff is outmatched, she could simply fly above the competition and wait for the last man standing to emerge, and put him to sleep, since he's most likely going to be fatigued. Couldn't she just destroy the weaker ones with Moon Blast and Flamethrower? Jigglypuff is pretty ****ing dangerous when you think about it. We're assuming Sonic has all 7 Emeralds?

The assumption so far is that Sonic is able to stop time, and fast enough to do so before anyone else can do anything.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The assumption so far is that Sonic is able to stop time, and fast enough to do so before anyone else can do anything.

He can't stop time without a Chaos Emerald. And even then, has it been shown that he can completely freeze time? I'm pretty sure not even Shadow can completely stall time. Plus, it's not like that'd help much against Cute Charm.

 

[pupNapoleon]

He can't stop time without a Chaos Emerald. And even then, has it been shown that he can completely freeze time? I'm pretty sure not even Shadow can completely stall time. Plus, it's not like that'd help much against Cute Charm.

My personal theory, since we are speaking about canon universe, is that Wii Fit Trainer is the strongest.
In her game, she is merely a guiding voice, dictating your every action, in attempt to make you actually stronger.
She is the closest representation of an actual God in her game. Can even be any gender. And extends meta to aid you outside of her own universe.
Plus, in her game, she is, quite literally, invincible, and intangible to all players.