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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Munomario777

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I know, but why stop at above 20 mi/h when we can work with 40 mi/h?
Let me try something. I'll scale Mario's jumping and running at the same ratio. First off, the numbers.
  • The Triple Jump, Mario's highest jump, sends Mario about four Marios in the air.
  • Mario is about five feet tall.
  • The world record for jumping, according to my sources, is approximately two feet.
Now, let's do the math:
  • Four Marios * five feet = 20 feet for the Triple Jump.
  • We get a one-to-ten ration for humans jumping and Mario jumping.
  • Scaling the running by that same ratio (10 * the top speed of 20 mph for humans), we get Mario running at 200 mph.
Yeah, I don't buy that. It seems like it doesn't quite scale the same, so we should just work with human limits for now. I'd be fine with working with 40 mph if that's what you'd prefer.
 

Crystanium

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Let me try something. I'll scale Mario's jumping and running at the same ratio. First off, the numbers.
  • The Triple Jump, Mario's highest jump, sends Mario about four Marios in the air.
  • Mario is about five feet tall.
  • The world record for jumping, according to my sources, is approximately two feet.
Now, let's do the math:
  • Four Marios * five feet = 20 feet for the Triple Jump.
  • We get a one-to-ten ration for humans jumping and Mario jumping.
  • Scaling the running by that same ratio (10 * the top speed of 20 mph for humans), we get Mario running at 200 mph.
Yeah, I don't buy that. It seems like it doesn't quite scale the same, so we should just work with human limits for now. I'd be fine with working with 40 mph if that's what you'd prefer.
Do you mean two meters? I can jump at least three feet vertically into the air without squatting first. I'm not sure where you got this 1:10 ratio, but 1:10 is the same as 1/10, which is 10%. 20 mi/h * 10% is 2 mi/h. 20 mi/h + 2 mi/h is 22 mi/h. We don't actually know how fast Mario is running, though.
 

Munomario777

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Do you mean two meters? I can jump at least three feet vertically into the air without squatting first. I'm not sure where you got this 1:10 ratio, but 1:10 is the same as 1/10, which is 10%. 20 mi/h * 10% is 2 mi/h. 20 mi/h + 2 mi/h is 22 mi/h. We don't actually know how fast Mario is running, though.
Whoops, bad source. Let me rework the numbers.

According to this source, the current jumping WR is just over eight feet. Humans' eight feet to Mario's forty gives us a ratio of 8 : 40, and reducing this gives us 1 : 5. Using the same ratio (Mario is five times a normal human) for running, we get a clean 100 mph. That seems very unlikely.
 

Kirby Dragons

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And yet they're blocked by Protect.
And not by Super Sonic.
And he only loses fifteen Rings maximum.
Then Mewtwo attacks again.
I fail to see how this is relevant.
Mewtwo's stats are compared.
"Holding things in place" isn't much proof for this.
That's not at all what I was saying. I was saying that Mewtwo can go invincible using Protect (as you say), and Super Sonic doesn't block other invincible beings, so his moves would work here.
Super Sonic is great at breaking out of his opponents' grasp. Unfortunately, we don't see Sonic fighting Silver, the hedgehog with TK, but we do see Sonic struggling to escape Robotnik's mech and then using Super Sonic to escape with ease.
Robotnik's mech, can it lift islands?
Aside from the above points, Chaos Control would also work.
Protect + Disable. Now Mewtwo uses telekinesis again and Sonic can't escape.
I was referring to the method of voting. Still, the reason it isn't in a list is because one hasn't been compiled since the end of the vote.
Nothing you brought up went against what I said about revoting.
You didn't prove anything more.
You didn't disprove anything more either.
Care to prove this?
Moves much faster than running, something an actual jeep does.
I don't recall saying that most of the cast could do this, but I apologize for the misunderstanding if I did.
Forgiven.
How large are said Helpers?
There's Bugzzy, who is two feet tall. Aside from him, there's Bonkers (sixteen inches) and Knuckle Joe (a foot).
What type of projectile are you referring to, and how would it impede vision?
Different kinds of projectiles. They'd be shot in the face, in front of the eyes, so that would block off sight. Bugzzy can create pairs of beetles, these could fly into the opponent's eyes. Bonkers has an exploding coconut, it would cause an explosion, that would distraught sight as well.
Does this happen to other enemies, or just Marx? Also, is he as large as a Charizard?
Other enemies can take quite a bit of knockback as well.

He has also launched other enemies into space, Octagon and Hardy.

Marx is around 5 feet tall.
The only time it's specified that Kirby travels at that speed is also when he has to rev up. In other words, Kirby hasn't travelled at those speeds without first revving up. Mario has jumped without using FP.
He has traveled at those speeds without revving up. And even so, Helpers could simply stop the opponent from attacking anyways.
That was unrelated to the running vs jumping deal.
You said that Bowser could run fast because he jumps quickly.
A) No, we haven't (at least not outside of Air Ride).
B) Roller skates are also heavier and not self-propelled.
A) We have, when Kirby rolls over it.
B) They aren't much heavier than Kirby is, also I don't see why it matters if they are self-propelled or not.
That's for a grown man, not an eight-inch Kirby.
Difference?
I'd imagine it was his intent, since he attacked.
I'd imagine it was Kirby's intent.
Or because, you know, he's a living buzzsaw travelling at supersonic speeds.
Attacking a robot with parts inside that wouldn't be quite durable.
Sonic attacks from behind, and Kirby must react in time to turn around.
Helper will aid in this situation.
A) Have Helpers ridden Air Rides before?
B) Chaos Control.
C) Seeing as how Sonic's fastest running option, the Boost, plows through enemies, this would be ineffective.
A) Yes, some of them have.
B) Not sure that could activate in time.
C) Sonic's in the air, he can't run, also he's facing away from the Helper.
Kirby shot a beam, and Kirby's beam attack caused an explosion.
Sectonia caused the explosion, actually.
Since when?
See my Pikachu example.
Has he done this before?
No, but it would just happen, since that is what Kirby's physiology and strength are like.
He's still creating a window for the opponent to attack him.
Then he could dodge the attack, or the Helper could stop it.
Kirby provided the force to push Marx, whereas Marx (or something explosive on the planet) provided the explosion force.
There wasn't anything explosive on the planet. The reason why Marx provided that force because Kirby sent it through him and made him move forcefully.
Let's look a bit deeper into this, shall we? Galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy often consist of the following:
  • Planetoids
  • Launch Stars
  • 1-UP Mushrooms and other power-ups
  • Star Bits
So, if Lumas can turn into a part of the galaxies, these would be prime candidates. Can they? Well, yes! Let's take a look:
  • Planetoids: Yes; they turn into planetoids within galaxies.
  • Launch Stars: Yes; they turn into Launch Stars with in galaxies.
  • 1-UP Mushrooms: Yes; via the Luma Shop.
  • Star Bits: Yes, sort of; they can fire Star Bits from a reserve, which would presumably be the Star Bits you feed the Luma to make it transform.
Presumably, they could also turn into black holes then.
I'll still disagree, unless they have turned into most of the things inside the galaxy. The things you have mentioned only seem like elements that would help a character out, rather than being offensive transformations.
What makes you say that?
They have never shown the ability, also it hasn't been stated.
  • We don't need something spelled out for us if we can logically conclude that it's the case.
  • Different energy reserves for different moves. It's like how an airliner could run out of fuel for one engine but continue to run the other.
  • Arceus has a power reserve that scales with the damage the attacks deal.
  • Fly only takes PP in battles because that's the only time that it deals damage. If the move is only used halfway (i.e. only flying up, like in the overworld), the PP is not reduced.
  • I could have insufficient energy to punch, yet I wouldn't die as a result. Also, see bullet point #2.
  • We can't logically conclude the case.
  • So you're saying that Pokemon are machines?
  • What power reserve? If moves used up energy, they would start using up the energy right as the Pokemon started to use them.
  • Non-damaging moves take up PP too. Also, when Fly is used outside of battle, the move is completed (Pokemon goes up and down).
  • You are running out of energy for one thing you can do; Pokemon are running out of energy for all things they can do.
Real black holes don't have a lack of distortion near the singularity.
This "lack of distortion" isn't caused by a flaw in the design.
I don't see how a detail being part of the design makes it irrelevant; in that case, Kirby surviving being crushed is irrelevant.
Kirby being crushed is in no way a part of the design.
We see a clear "distortion" effect around the mouth, so I don't see why this wouldn't be applied to the face as well.
Design flaw.
Why is that?
They cannot lower the destructive capability of becoming a galaxy.
Since when does Kirby have a defense stat?
Everyone in all of fiction and non-fiction has a defense stat. In most cases, it doesn't have an actual number.
I don't see why Sonic couldn't just teleport to the side, or throw out a projectile attack like Sonic Wind.
Kirby could readjust his position to inhale whatever Sonic throws out.
Sonic seems to be fine without seeing, at least with the Homing Attack/other homing techniques. After all, he is spinning around at high speeds and all.
But not tracking down his opponent while teleporting.
Sales Pitch is from the damaged ship, and the name is from Olimar.
Actually, the ship isn't damaged in Pikmin 2, only Pikmin.
Your "it hasn't been disproven" argument is an argument from ignorance.
I'm looking back at the Shulk rules for this.

I was referring to the fact that nothing disproved it in the Pikmin games, rather than taking what you say as actual disproof.
Do we see the observation? If not, I don't see why we should assume it exists.
It wouldn't be written down or analyzed if it didn't do that.
A copy of a game can be corrupted and still play, just not quite as intended.
The ship isn't broken.
It's made by the localization team, not the original creator(s).
Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars wasn't made by the original creators either, are we going to take that as non-canon?
He's shown it before in this exact same scenario.
But he lost the insanity and never got it back.
There are other characters who are stronger, or as strong, as that.
Plot armor protects the character from dying, or something similar. Kirby didn't die, so it worked.
Kirby seemed worried by the explosion, so that shows that dying wasn't out of the question here.
The rule would only apply if there isn't a contradiction (i.e. Starman can die to lava, whereas Super Sonic cannot, so it doesn't apply), or if the invincibility in question hasn't been shown with that kind of attack (for instance, Starman hasn't been shown with a psychic attack, and Protect has, so we use Protect's data on Starman). Do you have a different opinion in light of the additional clarification?
Actually, the rule of the Starman is that it negates damage from attacks, and not other effects from non-attacks. In my opinion (and seemingly Nerdicon's), Starman and Protect aren't really similar in any way, so they shouldn't be compared.
Unless she was using a Starman or other invincibility item.
None of Rosalina's items can stop attacks of galactic force, so that's a no.
 
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Munomario777

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And not by Super Sonic.
How so?
Then Mewtwo attacks again.
And in the meantime, Sonic does one of the following:
  • Freezes time.
  • Speedblitzes Mewtwo.
  • Uses a projectile attack.
  • Teleports to Mewtwo and attacks.
  • Etc.
Mewtwo's stats are compared.
Since when does being a final boss determine stats?
That's not at all what I was saying. I was saying that Mewtwo can go invincible using Protect (as you say), and Super Sonic doesn't block other invincible beings, so his moves would work here.
Being invulnerable to most attacks is irrelevant to your own attacks.
Robotnik's mech, can it lift islands?
No, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Protect + Disable. Now Mewtwo uses telekinesis again and Sonic can't escape.
Disable is blocked.
Nothing you brought up went against what I said about revoting.
The Chao Garden revote was due to a lack of a formal system at the time of the previous vote, so there was a reason for it. There is no such reason for the revote you're asking for.
You didn't disprove anything more either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Moves much faster than running, something an actual jeep does.
I fail to see how this is proof.
There's Bugzzy, who is two feet tall. Aside from him, there's Bonkers (sixteen inches) and Knuckle Joe (a foot).
Could you provide images please?
Different kinds of projectiles. They'd be shot in the face, in front of the eyes, so that would block off sight. Bugzzy can create pairs of beetles, these could fly into the opponent's eyes. Bonkers has an exploding coconut, it would cause an explosion, that would distraught sight as well.
Those would only last a second or so, and when they make contact, they disappear. Aside from the beetles, that is, but they could be swatted away unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Other enemies can take quite a bit of knockback as well.


He has also launched other enemies into space, Octagon and Hardy.

Marx is around 5 feet tall.
I see. Could you provide video of Kirby doing this to Marx? It would be nice to have for reference.
He has traveled at those speeds without revving up. And even so, Helpers could simply stop the opponent from attacking anyways.
Did he travel at those speeds in Air Ride without revving up?

I fail to see how the Helpers would hinder a foe's abilities.
You said that Bowser could run fast because he jumps quickly.
No, I said he could move quickly to catch up to Kirby via his jumps.
A) We have, when Kirby rolls over it.
B) They aren't much heavier than Kirby is, also I don't see why it matters if they are self-propelled or not.
A) Is it stated that he moves at those speeds?
B) Yes, they are heavier, making the comparison invalid. It would be beneficial to be self-propelled because it maintains the speed and the spinning, both of which help travelling across water.
Difference?
A grown man needs more force and speed to stay on water, whereas Kirby's light frame would significantly change things.
I'd imagine it was Kirby's intent.
On what grounds?
Attacking a robot with parts inside that wouldn't be quite durable.
And which has heavy armor on the outside.
Helper will aid in this situation.
Would they react in time, or be physically quick enough to catch Sonic?
A) Yes, some of them have.
B) Not sure that could activate in time.
C) Sonic's in the air, he can't run, also he's facing away from the Helper.
A) Interesting.
B) It activates in a split second.
C) Sonic can control his momentum in midair, and the Boost allows him to propel forwards at high speeds without touching the ground.
Sectonia caused the explosion, actually.
Kirby fired the beam, prompting Sectonia to explode.
See my Pikachu example.
We give Pokemon max stats because they can achieve this in multiple games. Kirby doesn't usually survive explosions.
No, but it would just happen, since that is what Kirby's physiology and strength are like.
As proven by?
Then he could dodge the attack, or the Helper could stop it.
Depends on the attack. The Helper is just being created, so that wouldn't work, and Kirby is immobile while doing so.
There wasn't anything explosive on the planet. The reason why Marx provided that force because Kirby sent it through him and made him move forcefully.
As proven by?
I'll still disagree, unless they have turned into most of the things inside the galaxy. The things you have mentioned only seem like elements that would help a character out, rather than being offensive transformations.
I don't see how that's relevant.
They have never shown the ability, also it hasn't been stated.
They can speed off in a direction into outer space, rather than into the Observatory, so they have general directional control. Plus, they go straight to their spots in Galaxy 2's world map.
  • We can't logically conclude the case.
  • So you're saying that Pokemon are machines?
  • What power reserve? If moves used up energy, they would start using up the energy right as the Pokemon started to use them.
  • Non-damaging moves take up PP too. Also, when Fly is used outside of battle, the move is completed (Pokemon goes up and down).
  • You are running out of energy for one thing you can do; Pokemon are running out of energy for all things they can do.
  • We can, given the points I'm presenting.
  • No, I'm saying that they manage their energy well. Actually, some are machines, but that's besides the point.
  • The power reserves inside their bodies. The meter counting down at a certain time doesn't indicate much.
  • Non-damaging moves can take up energy too. In battle, coming down is an attack. Outside of battle, it isn't.
  • PP is only for one move.
This "lack of distortion" isn't caused by a flaw in the design.
Right. If it was meant to be an actual black hole, this would be a flaw in the design.
Kirby being crushed is in no way a part of the design.
As in, the design of the game.
Design flaw.
First you say it's not a design flaw, and then you say it is. What is your stance exactly?
They cannot lower the destructive capability of becoming a galaxy.
Ah, I see.
Everyone in all of fiction and non-fiction has a defense stat. In most cases, it doesn't have an actual number.
Since Kirby's doesn't have a number, we don't have a reason for it changing other than game inconsistencies. Thus, we go with the most common one. On the other hand, with Pikachu, we know it's via leveling up and getting stronger, so we give him his most consistent top stats.
Kirby could readjust his position to inhale whatever Sonic throws out.
A) Reaction time. (Or lack thereof)
B) Sonic Wind comes in from all angles.
But not tracking down his opponent while teleporting.
Right. Tracking down his opponent before teleporting and then instantaneously teleporting to them.
Actually, the ship isn't damaged in Pikmin 2, only Pikmin.
I see.
I'm looking back at the Shulk rules for this.
Um, okay?
I was referring to the fact that nothing disproved it in the Pikmin games, rather than taking what you say as actual disproof.
Just because it's not directly disproven in the games doesn't mean we can't deduce that it's incorrect.
It wouldn't be written down or analyzed if it didn't do that.
How do we know that?
Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars wasn't made by the original creators either, are we going to take that as non-canon?
The creators of Mario RPG are the original creators. The localization team didn't develop the games.
But he lost the insanity and never got it back.
As proven by?
There are other characters who are stronger, or as strong, as that.
And?
Kirby seemed worried by the explosion, so that shows that dying wasn't out of the question here.
A child could be worried about a shot at the doctor's office, yet dying is out of the question.
Actually, the rule of the Starman is that it negates damage from attacks, and not other effects from non-attacks. In my opinion (and seemingly Nerdicon's), Starman and Protect aren't really similar in any way, so they shouldn't be compared.
The Starman negates spikes (stage hazards), to the point of letting the user walk on top of them.
None of Rosalina's items can stop attacks of galactic force, so that's a no.
They have been shown to block explosions before, but fair enough. She still has a couple of options though:
  • Just get far enough away. I don't recall the explosion being that much bigger than the galaxy itself.
  • Use the Force (field).
  • Become intangible by fading away like she does in Gateway Galaxy.
 

Crystanium

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Whoops, bad source. Let me rework the numbers.

According to this source, the current jumping WR is just over eight feet. Humans' eight feet to Mario's forty gives us a ratio of 8 : 40, and reducing this gives us 1 : 5. Using the same ratio (Mario is five times a normal human) for running, we get a clean 100 mph. That seems very unlikely.
Mario is 5'1", so he's actually jumping 20'4", or 244 inches, which is 6.1976 m. This is 253% greater, meaning if you want to work with 20 mi/h, then Mario is able to run 70.59 mi/h by your method. If we went with 1:5, that would actually be 24 mi/h.
 
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Munomario777

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Mario is 5'1", so he's actually jumping 20'4", or 244 inches, which is 6.1976 m. This is 253% greater, meaning if you want to work with 20 mi/h, then Mario is able to run 70.59 mi/h by your method. If we went with 1:5, that would actually be 24 mi/h.
Let's just say that they can run beyond human limits and leave it at that. There's no real good method to calculate it at the moment (AFAIK).
 

Crystanium

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I think I will try to find out Mario's running speed. While I should try to find strides per minute, I will have to work with strides per second and extrapolate the data. I'm going to do a rough estimate from the New Super Mario Bros. U at the beginning and say 15 strides per 3 seconds, or 5 strides per second. This is his average, as he speeds up. I'm ignoring the centiseconds. I'd say from the image I have, Mario is 41 pixels tall. His stride is 38 px., or 143.60 centimeters long. Multiplying this by 5 strides per second gives us 7.18 m/s, or 16.06 mi/h.
 

Nerdicon

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Invincibility is a bit misleading, no character in this discussion can achieve true invulnerability. These "invincible" states are bound only by the limits and rules of the games they come from. These limitations can extend from things such as being crushed to more specific things such as a specific form of damage. In this discussion I'll split these invulnerable states into three categories, full body, barrier, and invincibility frames.

Full Body invincibility is mostly found with platforming characters, they have no specific barrier or move to activate it their body just becomes tougher through a power-up or something similar. Notable examples include:
  • :4mario::4luigi::rosalina::4peach::4yoshi:-Invincibility Star/Mega Mushroom
  • :4kirby::4metaknight::4dedede:-Invincibility Candy
  • :4darkpit::4pit:-Power-Up Drop
  • :4palutena:-Brief Invincibility
  • :4sonic:-Super Sonic/Hyper Sonic*
  • :4ganondorf:-Triforce of Power**
  • :4marth:-Falchion's Seal**
*More of a very high defense boost than invincibility
**Always active with a specific weakness that needs to be exploited
The downfall of most full body invulnerabilities are time constraints. Most forms of full body invincibility have a time limit, usually only a few seconds. Secondly, they can still be harmed through a few different ways usually hazards that were not meant to be bypassed. For example, Invincible Mario gets hit by a Thwomp. Crushing should instantly kill but the Thwomp's status as an enemy takes priority and it dies. In another example, Invincible Mario gets crushed between two moving walls. Crushing instantly kills Mario because you can't kill inanimate objects or pass through solid objects.
So general rule of thumb for these forms of invincibility is that they can still be crushed by a powerful enough object, so long as it isn't the opponent who tries to crush the invincible character, else the touch damage will override the crushing. Characters like Pit, Dark Pit (Atlas Foot), Kirby (Iron/Stone), Samus (Gunship), and Rosalina (Planetoid) can flatten these characters to effectively counter their invincibility. Alternatively, any character who's strong enough could take a chunk of the concrete battlefield to crush their opponent.


Barriers are a smaller category of moves that put up a small barrier around the user (usually very close to the body) to defend against attacks, these include
  • :4mewtwo::4greninja::4pikachu::4charizard:-Protect
  • :4tlink::4link:-Magic Armor
  • :4kirby:-Mirror Guard/Ice Guard
  • :rosalina:-Barrier*
*This has a seemingly crippling weakness to EM wave attacks
The weaknesses of these are less apparent as they vary greatly through each example. Protect can be bypassed by select moves, seemingly ones that involve teleportation or tricking the opponent. Magic Armor (at least in The Wind Waker which is the version we're using) isn't effective in keeping Link safe from the lava in Dragon Roost Cavern. Kirby's guards can be bypassed keeping him off the ground and Rosalina's weakness is in the fine print. These barriers have in general more uses or time compared to the full body forms of invincibility.
The varied weaknesses make these forms of invincibility much more dangerous as the opponent is less likely to find the chink in the armor


When I say Invincibility Frames I'm referring to moves that grant invincibility not the ones you get after being hit (that's just a game mechanic) there are a few moves like this including:
  • :4kirby:-Wheel/Snow Bowl/Stone
  • :4samus:-Shinespark
  • :4megaman:-Lightning Bolt
  • :4palutena:-Trade-Off
These usually have more uses for attacking than defending but can be used for both. Something like Wheel or Shinespark allows the character to charge in with (almost) no repercussions. Lightning Bolt is a wide ranged attack that grants Mega Man temporary invincibility while using it, making it an excellent escape option. Trade-Off takes all of Palutena's remaining health but makes her exponentially more powerful and invincible for a short time. She could combine this with Pisces Heal to get back her health afterward (assuming her opponent is still alive). Just like the barriers, these moves have specific weaknesses, but that doesn't mean you can bypass the invincibility of any of them. Wheel will stop if it hits a pothole, Snow Bowl lasts a short amount of time, Shinespark does minor damage to Samus, and Trade-off is just really risky.

TL;DR version: Although there are several forms of "invincibility" most have weaknesses that can be exploited.
 

Munomario777

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@ Nerdicon Nerdicon

Once again, nice analysis! I do have a couple of things to say though.
  • I don't feel the asterisk is needed after Super/Hyper Sonic (at least, not any more than it would be needed for, say, Rainbow Mario).
  • It should be noted that many of these have limited uses (i.e. Protect's PP), as well as the fact that we can only assume that they protect against what they're shown to protect against in the games.
  • I agree with the Thwomp bit in the first section, although I feel that Rainbow Mario should be able to resist the examples you listed, even though they can't be hurt; Thwomps can't be hurt by normal means either.
 

Crystanium

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I decided I'd test Mega Man's running speed as well based on Mega Man 10 using this video. Mega Man's height is 1.32 meters. This is equal to 38 pixels. His stride is 46 pixels, or 1.597894736842105284 meters. His stride frequency is 18 strides per 4.233 seconds, or 4.25 strides per second. This would give Mega Man an average velocity of 6.79 m/s, or 15.2 mi/h. Mega Man would be able to run a mile in 3 minutes, 57 seconds.

Edit: Excellent analysis, Nerdicon. With respect to Link and Toon Link, I brought up the question before of whether or not adult Link and young Link should be regarded as separate incarnations.
 
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Reckless Godwin 2.0

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@ Nerdicon Nerdicon Where’s Monado Shield (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Monado_Shield) and FE10’s Pavise (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Shield)? You forgot to mention that Marth has the Darksphere (http://www.fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Darksphere) in addition to the Falchion’s seal. I know indirect weapons can bypass the Falchion’s defense, but what characters can get pass the Darksphere? The only weapons that come to mind that can pierce the Darksphere’s defense are Light arrows (not sure they have enough power), the Tome of Naga (has negated the Tome of Loptyr’s defense and should be close in power to it because both were made by Naga), Ragnell (A blessing from both Ashera and Yune who are a few tiers up from Naga), Chaos Emeralds and Monado III (their origins and powers are out of Naga’s league). It’s unclear if the Darksphere can block status ailments.
 

Kirby Dragons

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Protect and Super Sonic are classified differently. Just because one of them blocks something, that doesn't mean the other one will.
And in the meantime, Sonic does one of the following:
  • Freezes time.
  • Speedblitzes Mewtwo.
  • Uses a projectile attack.
  • Teleports to Mewtwo and attacks.
  • Etc.
Sonic can't even do most of that stuff after Mewtwo uses Trick to take a Chaos Emerald.
Since when does being a final boss determine stats?
It doesn't, but Mewtwo has stats that are on the same level as the final bosses that Sonic faces.
Being invulnerable to most attacks is irrelevant to your own attacks.
Super Shadow is invulnerable to most attacks. Super Sonic didn't block him. Mewtwo is invulnerable to most attacks. Super Sonic doesn't block him.

(NOTE: This is going off the invincibility rule. With the rule abolished, Mewtwo doesn't have to use Protect to do this.)
No, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Okay.
Disable is blocked.
See above.
The Chao Garden revote was due to a lack of a formal system at the time of the previous vote, so there was a reason for it. There is no such reason for the revote you're asking for.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, we had the list of rules you talked about during the previous vote.

The reason for my revote is because that might not be what we actually want to happen.
How does that apply?
I fail to see how this is proof.
Dedede's vehicle and jeeps move at similar speeds is what I'm saying.
Could you provide images please?



Those would only last a second or so, and when they make contact, they disappear. Aside from the beetles, that is, but they could be swatted away unless you have evidence to the contrary.
A second or so is the time for Kirby to charge.
I see. Could you provide video of Kirby doing this to Marx? It would be nice to have for reference.
I already have, but I will provide it again.
2:25
Did he travel at those speeds in Air Ride without revving up?
No. However, he traveled at those speeds without revving up in other games.
I fail to see how the Helpers would hinder a foe's abilities.
Attacking.
No, I said he could move quickly to catch up to Kirby via his jumps.
Oh, that makes more sense.
A) Is it stated that he moves at those speeds?
B) Yes, they are heavier, making the comparison invalid. It would be beneficial to be self-propelled because it maintains the speed and the spinning, both of which help travelling across water.
A) This is similar to the :mario2::luigi2::peach::rosalina:situation. It has never been stated they move at 20 MPH, yet you say they can due to something in the real world.
B) Looking at the wheel of a rollerskate, I can't see it as being heavier than Kirby. Kirby can travel across short patches of water in the time it takes for the wheel of a skate to travel while maintaining its speed and spinning.
A grown man needs more force and speed to stay on water, whereas Kirby's light frame would significantly change things.
Even so, the wheel of a rollerskate would still need speed to travel over water.
On what grounds?
Grounds mentioned earlier (Kirby summoned him for a reason).
And which has heavy armor on the outside.
Can you prove that they're heavy?
Would they react in time, or be physically quick enough to catch Sonic?
They don't need any sort of speed, they can get near Kirby while the LSA is charging.
A) Interesting.
B) It activates in a split second.
C) Sonic can control his momentum in midair, and the Boost allows him to propel forwards at high speeds without touching the ground.
B) So would the Helper moving on an Air Ride vehicle.
C) If he Boosts, he would just end up in Kirby's mouth.
Kirby fired the beam, prompting Sectonia to explode.
How does that make it Kirby's attack?
We give Pokemon max stats because they can achieve this in multiple games. Kirby doesn't usually survive explosions.
Kirby has survived multiple explosions, however.
As proven by?
Exactly what I said. "That's what Kirby's physiology and strength are like."
Depends on the attack. The Helper is just being created, so that wouldn't work, and Kirby is immobile while doing so.
The Helper being created would move at the same speed (maybe faster) than a lot of attacks, especially the powerful ones.
As proven by?
Force is created by motion. Marx's motion was created by Kirby attacking him.
I don't see how that's relevant.
Because of that, I can't see black holes as something a Luma can turn into.
They can speed off in a direction into outer space, rather than into the Observatory, so they have general directional control. Plus, they go straight to their spots in Galaxy 2's world map.
Don't see how either of those statements relate to the positioning of objects inside the galaxies they become.
  • We can, given the points I'm presenting.
  • No, I'm saying that they manage their energy well. Actually, some are machines, but that's besides the point.
  • The power reserves inside their bodies. The meter counting down at a certain time doesn't indicate much.
  • Non-damaging moves can take up energy too. In battle, coming down is an attack. Outside of battle, it isn't.
  • PP is only for one move.
  • I'm the one actually presenting the points, you're going against them.
  • Pokemon can't have an energy system similar to those of machines, also an energy system similar to those of living creatures. And even if they did have a system similar to machines, Ember and Blast Burn would use the same energy.
  • It actually does, because the PP and the power are both emitted at the same time.
  • Basically, you just contradicted yourself. First, you said that non-damaging moves take up energy. Second, you said flying outside of battle doesn't take up energy because it doesn't damage.
  • I was referring to when a Pokemon runs out of PP for all its moves.
Right. If it was meant to be an actual black hole, this would be a flaw in the design.
Flaws in the design/artwork lead to it being an actual black hole.
As in, the design of the game.
By design, I mean artwork. Kirby being flattened is not a part of the artwork.
First you say it's not a design flaw, and then you say it is. What is your stance exactly?
I never said that the lack of face distortion wasn't a design flaw, I said that Kirby being flattened wasn't a design flaw.
Since Kirby's doesn't have a number, we don't have a reason for it changing other than game inconsistencies. Thus, we go with the most common one. On the other hand, with Pikachu, we know it's via leveling up and getting stronger, so we give him his most consistent top stats.
Kirby surviving that explosion is his most consistent top stat.

As for the inconsistency deal, cutscenes tend to be more accurate than gameplay in the first place.
A) Reaction time. (Or lack thereof)
B) Sonic Wind comes in from all angles.
How fast is Sonic Wind? Also, Kirby can just use Guard, or Tornado/Wheel/Stone.
Right. Tracking down his opponent before teleporting and then instantaneously teleporting to them.
Sonic can't track Kirby down before teleporting either, he's blinded.
Just because it's not directly disproven in the games doesn't mean we can't deduce that it's incorrect.
But your reasoning for the statement is being incorrect is that it's not directly disproven in the games.
How do we know that?
There wasn't anything wrong with Olimar or the scanners.
The creators of Mario RPG are the original creators. The localization team didn't develop the games.
Diddy Kong wasn't created by the original creators of DK. Are we going to take him as non-canon too?
As proven by?
He wasn't insane in Pikmin 2.
The question was if Sonic's weakness is that he doesn't have enough physical strength. A lot of the top tiers such as :kirby2::link2::ness2::metaknight::mewtwopm: are stronger (or can get stronger through certain methods) than Sonic, so that is still a weakness.
A child could be worried about a shot at the doctor's office, yet dying is out of the question.
The shot isn't able to kill him. The explosion wasn't able to kill Kirby because he is durable enough to tank it.
The Starman negates spikes (stage hazards), to the point of letting the user walk on top of them.
Stage hazards still cause damage. Trick/Skill Swap/Confusion/etc. don't cause damage, Starman hasn't negated anything like that.
They have been shown to block explosions before, but fair enough.
For the Starman, we should look at the potency of the attack in question rather than the form.
She still has a couple of options though:
  • Just get far enough away. I don't recall the explosion being that much bigger than the galaxy itself.
How can she get far enough away in time?
  • Use the Force (field).
Which is incapable of blocking that much Force (haha, pun).
  • Become intangible by fading away like she does in Gateway Galaxy.
This will work. Kirby could also do a similar thing by going Ninja Kirby and teleporting forward.
 

Munomario777

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Protect and Super Sonic are classified differently. Just because one of them blocks something, that doesn't mean the other one will.
The rule we voted on says that they have similar standings.
Sonic can't even do most of that stuff after Mewtwo uses Trick to take a Chaos Emerald.
We talked about this before. Still, he could do those things with six Emeralds; Chaos Control is performed with only one throughout the series.
It doesn't, but Mewtwo has stats that are on the same level as the final bosses that Sonic faces.
As proven by?
Super Shadow is invulnerable to most attacks. Super Sonic didn't block him. Mewtwo is invulnerable to most attacks. Super Sonic doesn't block him.

(NOTE: This is going off the invincibility rule. With the rule abolished, Mewtwo doesn't have to use Protect to do this.)
A) When does Super Sonic fail to block Super Shadow, out of curiosity?
B) I don't see how being invincible relates to being able to pierce invincibility.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, we had the list of rules you talked about during the previous vote.
I don't recall. Could you link to that please?
The reason for my revote is because that might not be what we actually want to happen.
That's never a reason for a revote in, say, political situations, so I don't see why it should be here.
How does that apply?
It's what you're doing.
Dedede's vehicle and jeeps move at similar speeds is what I'm saying.
Aren't these from boss fights?
K.
A second or so is the time for Kirby to charge.
Sorry, I meant a split second. They wouldn't be impeding vision for a significant amount of time because they'd disappear on contact (and if so, the attacker could just keep moving).
I already have, but I will provide it again.
2:25
Okay, thanks. I find it odd that there's a delay between Kirby's attack and the boss launching off. It seems like Kirby depleted his health, which caused Marx to use his own energy to propel himself upwards like a rocket.
No. However, he traveled at those speeds without revving up in other games.
Does it say that he's moving at those speeds in instances where he doesn't rev up?
Attacking.
Many of them could likely keep moving while being attacked by tiny Kirby-scale enemies.
A) This is similar to the :mario2::luigi2::peach::rosalina:situation. It has never been stated they move at 20 MPH, yet you say they can due to something in the real world.
B) Looking at the wheel of a rollerskate, I can't see it as being heavier than Kirby. Kirby can travel across short patches of water in the time it takes for the wheel of a skate to travel while maintaining its speed and spinning.
A) Because of their other physical abilities. Kirby doesn't demonstrate anything that would imply he travels at 30 + MPH.
B) A rollerskate as a whole is heavier than Kirby. Kirby keeps spinning, meaning he's applying some sort of power/force/etc. to the wheel to keep him on the surface of the water.
Even so, the wheel of a rollerskate would still need speed to travel over water.
Of course, but not nearly as much as a human.
Grounds mentioned earlier (Kirby summoned him for a reason).
The reason was to have Meta Knight. We see no signs of Kirby intending Meta Knight to do what he does.
Can you prove that they're heavy?
The visual design greatly resembles military-grade armor.
They don't need any sort of speed, they can get near Kirby while the LSA is charging.
Which would accomplish what exactly? Worth noting is that the LSA can chain together multiple targets in quick succession.
B) So would the Helper moving on an Air Ride vehicle.
C) If he Boosts, he would just end up in Kirby's mouth.
B) No, Air Rides need a bit of charge time.
C) Or, you know, he could steer around it.
How does that make it Kirby's attack?
The same way pulling a trigger on a gun and causing the bullet to leave the chamber would be one's attack. It's a chain reaction.
Kirby has survived multiple explosions, however.
Such as?
Exactly what I said. "That's what Kirby's physiology and strength are like."
What proves that his physiology and strength would allow him to do this?
The Helper being created would move at the same speed (maybe faster) than a lot of attacks, especially the powerful ones.
It takes about .5 to 1 second.
Force is created by motion. Marx's motion was created by Kirby attacking him.
Except there's a disconnect between Kirby hitting Marx and Marx launching off (not to mention the radically different angles between the attack and Marx flying off).
Because of that, I can't see black holes as something a Luma can turn into.
I don't see how being offensive/helpful would determine what a Luma can turn into.
Don't see how either of those statements relate to the positioning of objects inside the galaxies they become.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the position of the galaxies themselves. They're always the same on each playthrough, they have a common theme (i.e. Sweet Sweet Galaxy has sweets and perfectly shaped cookie cutter holes), etc.
  • I'm the one actually presenting the points, you're going against them.
  • Pokemon can't have an energy system similar to those of machines, also an energy system similar to those of living creatures. And even if they did have a system similar to machines, Ember and Blast Burn would use the same energy.
  • It actually does, because the PP and the power are both emitted at the same time.
  • Basically, you just contradicted yourself. First, you said that non-damaging moves take up energy. Second, you said flying outside of battle doesn't take up energy because it doesn't damage.
  • I was referring to when a Pokemon runs out of PP for all its moves.
  • Sorry, counterpoints.
  • Why not?
  • So, would this not indicate that PP and power are one in the same...?
  • Non-damaging moves can take up energy. However, Pokemon moving doesn't seem to take up energy, and Fly is a basic method of movement for flying Pokemon.
  • Ah. That just means they're out of the energy designated for their moves, but still have the energy needed for basic function (that is, until they faint).
Flaws in the design/artwork lead to it being an actual black hole.
How is that? I don't see how differences from a real black hole indicate that it is a real black hole.
By design, I mean artwork. Kirby being flattened is not a part of the artwork.
It is part of the design of the game.
I never said that the lack of face distortion wasn't a design flaw, I said that Kirby being flattened wasn't a design flaw.
Right, Kirby being flattened is a design feature.
Kirby surviving that explosion is his most consistent top stat.
Except we see him getting hurt by a hundred other things throughout the games. That's the consistent top stat.
As for the inconsistency deal, cutscenes tend to be more accurate than gameplay in the first place.
How so?
How fast is Sonic Wind? Also, Kirby can just use Guard, or Tornado/Wheel/Stone.
This fast.
Sonic can't track Kirby down before teleporting either, he's blinded.
By what, exactly?
But your reasoning for the statement is being incorrect is that it's not directly disproven in the games.
How so? My reasoning for it is that we haven't seen it demonstrated, and Olimar has been shown to go insane on PNF-404, plus we can't take this as proof anyways since it's just characters talking rather than WoG.
There wasn't anything wrong with Olimar or the scanners.
There sure was back on his last visit (which, by the way, happened shortly before Pikmin 2).
Diddy Kong wasn't created by the original creators of DK. Are we going to take him as non-canon too?
No, because they're the original developers of games in the series.
He wasn't insane in Pikmin 2.
He was just before it in Pikmin 1.
The question was if Sonic's weakness is that he doesn't have enough physical strength. A lot of the top tiers such as :kirby2::link2::ness2::metaknight::mewtwopm: are stronger (or can get stronger through certain methods) than Sonic, so that is still a weakness.
Ah. He has an ample amount of physical strength, although he doesn't rely on that as much as his speed. I wouldn't call it a "weakness"; more like a non-specialty, if that makes sense.
The shot isn't able to kill him. The explosion wasn't able to kill Kirby because he is durable enough to tank it.
No, because of plot armor. The durability is disproven by the other times he's harmed/killed by other means.
Stage hazards still cause damage. Trick/Skill Swap/Confusion/etc. don't cause damage, Starman hasn't negated anything like that.
Right.
For the Starman, we should look at the potency of the attack in question rather than the form.
True.
How can she get far enough away in time?
Teleportation, Launch Stars, etc.
Which is incapable of blocking that much Force (haha, pun).
Fair enough.
This will work. Kirby could also do a similar thing by going Ninja Kirby and teleporting forward.
How long can he maintain this state of intangibility, out of curiosity? Also, I'd imagine multiple rapid-fire Luma transforms would outlast Kirby's intangibility.
 

Nerdicon

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@ Nerdicon Nerdicon Where’s Monado Shield (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Monado_Shield) and FE10’s Pavise (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Shield)? You forgot to mention that Marth has the Darksphere (http://www.fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Darksphere) in addition to the Falchion’s seal. I know indirect weapons can bypass the Falchion’s defense, but what characters can get pass the Darksphere? The only weapons that come to mind that can pierce the Darksphere’s defense are Light arrows (not sure they have enough power), the Tome of Naga (has negated the Tome of Loptyr’s defense and should be close in power to it because both were made by Naga), Ragnell (A blessing from both Ashera and Yune who are a few tiers up from Naga), Chaos Emeralds and Monado III (their origins and powers are out of Naga’s league). It’s unclear if the Darksphere can block status ailments.
I didn't put down Monado Shield because it only blocks one attack, and it has to be the equivalent of a talent art for that character. For characters like Sonic who are basically going to punch you Monado Shield won't work.
I just forgot about the Darksphere (whoops.) but that isn't really invincibility; though it does prevent Marth from being attacked. For anyone who played the Japan only Fire Emblem games, exactly how did the darksphere work? Were you just invincible as long as you had it? Seems a bit broken if you ask me but points for Marth (you know if he could actually hit any of the top tiers)
 

Nerdicon

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You know what, Marth is way better than I gave him credit for on account of the Fire Emblem and Falchion. Let's take a quick look.
The Falchion grants Marth invulnerability to direct non-dragon attacks as you already know. It's seemingly indestructible.
The Fire Emblem grants Marth a small buff to all of his stats and more, importantly, hold the various spheres of the shield.
The Lightsphere negates enemy terrain bonuses (like hiding in shrubs to reduce damage), The Darksphere controls the opponents mind so they don't attack Marth, the Starsphere makes it so weapon durability does not deplete, the Geosphere has three uses and it damages every entity on the field besides the holder, and the Lifesphere heals Marth back to full health at the end of each turn.
Not to mention he can reclass into any male class, so he can start shooting a bow or using some magic if he needs to.
Marth is a much more serious threat than I originally thought, everyone seemingly having a tie with him at best.
 

Crystanium

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Just for fun, I figured I'd try to use the method I've used for Mario and Mega Man and use it for Samus. Here's what I got. It takes Samus 7.134 seconds to run 34 strides per second. Samus is 84 pixels tall, which based on her height, I used 1.8 meters instead of 1.9 meters. I thought it would be reasonable. Anyway, so Samus' stride is 105 pixels.

105 px. / 84 px. = 1.25
1.8 meters * 1.25 = 2.25 meters

34 strides per second / 7.134 seconds = 4.7659097280627979 strides/second

4.7659097280627979 * 2.25 = 10.723296888141295275 m/s, or 23.98 mi/h.

I've used the speed of a powder avalanche on the low-end to be 25 m/s, but since Samus is outrunning it, I rounded it to 30 m/s. What's pretty cool is that a wet flowing or dry flowing avalanche on the low-end would be 10 m/s. The thing is, the avalanche Samus outruns doesn't look like a wet or dry flow.

According to this site, powder avalanches "seize up like concrete". You can see this when you return to the room where the avalanche took place. It can be used to acquire a missile tank, although I just use the shinespark to get it before I get the wave beam. Anyway, I think all of this is pretty cool.
 

Munomario777

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You know what, Marth is way better than I gave him credit for on account of the Fire Emblem and Falchion. Let's take a quick look.
The Falchion grants Marth invulnerability to direct non-dragon attacks as you already know. It's seemingly indestructible.
The Fire Emblem grants Marth a small buff to all of his stats and more, importantly, hold the various spheres of the shield.
The Lightsphere negates enemy terrain bonuses (like hiding in shrubs to reduce damage), The Darksphere controls the opponents mind so they don't attack Marth, the Starsphere makes it so weapon durability does not deplete, the Geosphere has three uses and it damages every entity on the field besides the holder, and the Lifesphere heals Marth back to full health at the end of each turn.
Not to mention he can reclass into any male class, so he can start shooting a bow or using some magic if he needs to.
Marth is a much more serious threat than I originally thought, everyone seemingly having a tie with him at best.
While this does make him rather potent, I do think there are a few characters that could defeat him. First off though, some things that should be considered:
  • The Lifesphere only heals 20 HP per turn as of New Mystery of the Emblem.
  • We should establish a turn-to-time ratio for Fire Emblem to determine how much of an effect this has.
  • The Geosphere's name seems to imply that it's some sort of earthquake, so flying characters should be fine.
Anyway, I'll go through how, say, Sonic could defeat Marth:
  • Falchion: Blue Tornado can take away enemies' shields, weapons, etc, meaning that this would take away both Marth's sword and shield (and the orbs within), leaving him helpless. Just for fun, though, I'll go over the rest.
  • Lightsphere doesn't have much relevance here.
  • Darksphere is countered by Sonic's willpower (he resists Dark Gaia's negative influences even when his body is changed into a Werehog).
  • Starsphere doesn't need countering.
  • Geosphere is an earthquake attack, so the flying abilities of Super Sonic should do the trick.
  • Lifesphere wouldn't be able to heal Marth before Sonic's speed and rapid-fire attacks finish him off.
Basically, Marth is only as good as his weapons. If you can get those away from him, he's helpless. If you can't, though, he's truly a force to be reckoned with.
 

Munomario777

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When? I didn't see that.
In Sonic Unleashed, Dr. Robotnik uses the power of the Chaos Emeralds to split the earth apart, revealing the evil deity of destruction known as "Dark Gaia". When this happens, Dark Gaia's dark/evil energy flows throughout the earth, affecting the majority of its population. This has a range of effects, from making a person see the bad side of things (i.e. worrying about the fate of the world etc. all the time) to complete possession (if my sources are correct). These effects only occur at night. Let's go back to Sonic, shall we? When Robotnik unleashes Dark Gaia, Sonic is turned into a "werehog" (werewolf + hedgehog). This is interesting because no other humans physically transform when affected by Dark Gaia. This seems to mean that Sonic was hit harder by Dark Gaia, and yet his personality, will, etc. are unaffected. In fact, Sonic actually had some of Dark Gaia's energy embedded inside of him. While Sonic did have Chip (AKA Light Gaia, Dark Gaia's opposite) with him during the adventure, Chip himself says that it wasn't him, but rather Sonic's own willpower:
Sonic the Werehog: [Looks at his hands] Even at night, when I'm like this. I'm still myself. Not like all the other people we've seen. [Looks at Chip] You must have been protecting me this whole time.
Chip: [Shakes his head] I haven't done anything, Sonic. You're the reason you haven't changed at all. You're too strong to lose yourself!
Sonic the Werehog: I'm the reason?
Chip: Yeah! You never doubt yourself, no matter what. You never give in to the night, or to the darkness inside your heart. I think it's because I knew that about you. That's why I wanted you to help me.
 

Crystanium

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In Sonic Unleashed, Dr. Robotnik uses the power of the Chaos Emeralds to split the earth apart, revealing the evil deity of destruction known as "Dark Gaia". When this happens, Dark Gaia's dark/evil energy flows throughout the earth, affecting the majority of its population. This has a range of effects, from making a person see the bad side of things (i.e. worrying about the fate of the world etc. all the time) to complete possession (if my sources are correct). These effects only occur at night. Let's go back to Sonic, shall we? When Robotnik unleashes Dark Gaia, Sonic is turned into a "werehog" (werewolf + hedgehog). This is interesting because no other humans physically transform when affected by Dark Gaia. This seems to mean that Sonic was hit harder by Dark Gaia, and yet his personality, will, etc. are unaffected. In fact, Sonic actually had some of Dark Gaia's energy embedded inside of him. While Sonic did have Chip (AKA Light Gaia, Dark Gaia's opposite) with him during the adventure, Chip himself says that it wasn't him, but rather Sonic's own willpower:
Sonic the Werehog: [Looks at his hands] Even at night, when I'm like this. I'm still myself. Not like all the other people we've seen. [Looks at Chip] You must have been protecting me this whole time.
Chip: [Shakes his head] I haven't done anything, Sonic. You're the reason you haven't changed at all. You're too strong to lose yourself!
Sonic the Werehog: I'm the reason?
Chip: Yeah! You never doubt yourself, no matter what. You never give in to the night, or to the darkness inside your heart. I think it's because I knew that about you. That's why I wanted you to help me.
Thank you for explaining your reason. From what I checked from the Fire Emblem wikia, darksphere negates damage. I tend to ignore what's said on wikia sites unless there's a citation, but if anyone who knows FE better than I do, I'd be more trusting from the person I can speak with.
 

Munomario777

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Thank you for explaining your reason. From what I checked from the Fire Emblem wikia, darksphere negates damage. I tend to ignore what's said on wikia sites unless there's a citation, but if anyone who knows FE better than I do, I'd be more trusting from the person I can speak with.
No problem. I think Nerdicon said in his post that it worked by controlling the mind. Interestingly, the Darksphere is countered by the Lightsphere, so characters with light-based/holy attributes should be good to go here; Pit and Palutena come to mind.
 

Crystanium

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No problem. I think Nerdicon said in his post that it worked by controlling the mind. Interestingly, the Darksphere is countered by the Lightsphere, so characters with light-based/holy attributes should be good to go here; Pit and Palutena come to mind.
I was thinking the same thing. The lightsphere is associated with holy light, so that would definitely work.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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Could you not get a better angle on that? I’ve seen better https://youtu.be/DGwWWL8Orc4?list=PL4DE3B321F3EB9055&t=491 at 8:11-8:21.

It's seemingly indestructible.
The Fire Emblem grants Marth a small buff to all of his stats and more, importantly, hold the various spheres of the shield.
The Darksphere controls the opponents mind so they don't attack Marth, the Geosphere has three uses and it damages every entity on the field besides the holder, and the Lifesphere heals Marth back to full health at the end of each turn.
Not to mention he can reclass into any male class, so he can start shooting a bow or using some magic if he needs to.
Marth is a much more serious threat than I originally thought, everyone seemingly having a tie with him at best.
Only the blade of Falchion is indestructible as evidenced by the fact that Marth and Lucina’s each have different hilts.
The Fire Emblem’s bonuses won’t make up for Marth’s mediocre caps (25 in a game where the specialist classes can get 30?) and sword lock. He is statistically beaten by Ike thanks to Yune’s blessing (2 vs 5) and Robin + Lucina’s skills like Limit Breaker (2 vs 10).
The Darksphere can’t control the opponents mind as it functions exactly like Imhullu (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Imhullu and http://fireemblemwiki.org/Imhullu). The relation between the Darksphere and Lightsphere sounds similar to how Ragnell was one of the few ways to bypass the blessing on the Black Knight’s armor.
The Geosphere apparently hits all enemies on the map including fliers for 13 damage in a game where PCs can get 60 tops and civilians have low health by comparison(in radiant dawn a woman has only 18 and a child has 12, and it gets even worst in the older games). I would be very wary if I was Kirby and his helpers and this might be able to wipe out Rosalina’s starting army of Lumas. Olimar and the Pikmin have no chance at all.
The only Marths that can reclass are those clones in Awakening, and they aren't the real Marth. I'm using the Marth of FE1, 3, 11 and 12.

While this does make him rather potent, I do think there are a few characters that could defeat him. First off though, some things that should be considered:
  • The Lifesphere only heals 20 HP per turn as of New Mystery of the Emblem.
  • We should establish a turn-to-time ratio for Fire Emblem to determine how much of an effect this has.
  • The Geosphere's name seems to imply that it's some sort of earthquake, so flying characters should be fine.
Anyway, I'll go through how, say, Sonic could defeat Marth:
  • Falchion: Blue Tornado can take away enemies' shields, weapons, etc, meaning that this would take away both Marth's sword and shield (and the orbs within), leaving him helpless. Just for fun, though, I'll go over the rest.
  • Darksphere is countered by Sonic's willpower (he resists Dark Gaia's negative influences even when his body is changed into a Werehog).
  • Geosphere is an earthquake attack, so the flying abilities of Super Sonic should do the trick.
Basically, Marth is only as good as his weapons. If you can get those away from him, he's helpless. If you can't, though, he's truly a force to be reckoned with.
  • We are using the best version of Marth’s equipment so it will be the FE3 book 2 version of the Lifesphere.
  • Each Fire Emblem runs on a different scale. For example the battlefields in the Tellius series are among the smallest since you can visit individual houses, while in the GBA games villages and castle take up a 3x3 square on the field. Genealogy of the Holy War has the largest scale by far since the chapter maps cover whole countries and have you fight the lords of multiple castles and their garrisons.
  • The description makes no mention of Pegasus and Wyvern mounted knights ignoring it’s effect so it should be able to hit fliers just fine.

  • Prove that Blue Tornado can do that to competent human fighters and not just to Robotnik’s hunk of junk robots. Ike doesn’t lose his equipment when he gets hit with a whirlwind https://youtu.be/DGwWWL8Orc4?list=PL4DE3B321F3EB9055&t=491 at 8:11-8:21!
  • That’s not how the Darksphere works.
  • Geosphere hits airborne enemies as well.
If I was going up against Marth I would simply stay away from him till he falls unconscious from exhaustion then swipe the offending equipment.

That’s true of pretty much the entire cast besides the Pokemon and it holds true for Sonic as well!

No problem. I think Nerdicon said in his post that it worked by controlling the mind. Interestingly, the Darksphere is countered by the Lightsphere, so characters with light-based/holy attributes should be good to go here; Pit and Palutena come to mind.
Not just any old light/holy attack will work. Both the Lightsphere and Darksphere had magic tomes crafted from them (Starlight and Imhullu) and those tomes still had their parent sphere’s effects. Only Starlight had the power to penetrate Imhullu’s damage negation whilst Aura the other light magic of note couldn’t. I agree that Palutena can overcome the Darksphere but I’m not certain Pit can without some help from her.
 

Munomario777

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Could you not get a better angle on that? I’ve seen better https://youtu.be/DGwWWL8Orc4?list=PL4DE3B321F3EB9055&t=491 at 8:11-8:21.
That's the angle that the camera always goes to when using the move.

I'm not sure why you posted a FE link.
The Darksphere can’t control the opponents mind as it functions exactly like Imhullu (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Imhullu and http://fireemblemwiki.org/Imhullu). The relation between the Darksphere and Lightsphere sounds similar to how Ragnell was one of the few ways to bypass the blessing on the Black Knight’s armor.
They have the ends (making attacks not work), but different means (i.e. mind control).
  • We are using the best version of Marth’s equipment so it will be the FE3 book 2 version of the Lifesphere.
  • Each Fire Emblem runs on a different scale. For example the battlefields in the Tellius series are among the smallest since you can visit individual houses, while in the GBA games villages and castle take up a 3x3 square on the field. Genealogy of the Holy War has the largest scale by far since the chapter maps cover whole countries and have you fight the lords of multiple castles and their garrisons.
  • The description makes no mention of Pegasus and Wyvern mounted knights ignoring it’s effect so it should be able to hit fliers just fine.
  • NMotE is a remake of the original, is it not? Remakes take precedence.
  • So, how long is a turn in the games the Lifesphere appears in?
  • Do they fly close to the ground? An earthquake could cause damage to those who aren't quite grounded via shrapnel, vibrations causing waves in the air, etc.
  • Prove that Blue Tornado can do that to competent human fighters and not just to Robotnik’s hunk of junk robots. Ike doesn’t lose his equipment when he gets hit with a whirlwind https://youtu.be/DGwWWL8Orc4?list=PL4DE3B321F3EB9055&t=491 at 8:11-8:21!
  • That’s not how the Darksphere works.
  • Geosphere hits airborne enemies as well.
  • Prove that Marth is stronger than the Badniks. Ike =/= Marth.
  • See above.
  • See above.
If I was going up against Marth I would simply stay away from him till he falls unconscious from exhaustion then swipe the offending equipment.
Good plan.
That’s true of pretty much the entire cast besides the Pokemon and it holds true for Sonic as well!
How so?
Not just any old light/holy attack will work. Both the Lightsphere and Darksphere had magic tomes crafted from them (Starlight and Imhullu) and those tomes still had their parent sphere’s effects. Only Starlight had the power to penetrate Imhullu’s damage negation whilst Aura the other light magic of note couldn’t. I agree that Palutena can overcome the Darksphere but I’m not certain Pit can without some help from her.
I'm not sure what tomes and Starlight have to do with this. Also, to clarify, I was referring to light/holy attributes (i.e. being the Goddess of Light) rather than attacks (i.e. Light Arrows).
 

Kirby Dragons

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The rule we voted on says that they have similar standings.
That's not what we actually want, though.
We talked about this before. Still, he could do those things with six Emeralds; Chaos Control is performed with only one throughout the series.
But he can't use Chaos Control after Disable.
As proven by?
Their stats.
A) When does Super Sonic fail to block Super Shadow, out of curiosity?
B) I don't see how being invincible relates to being able to pierce invincibility.
A) Super Shadow punched him.
B) That's what happened with Super Shadow.
I don't recall. Could you link to that please?
You called for the revote around page 130, we started listing rules on page 117.
That's never a reason for a revote in, say, political situations, so I don't see why it should be here.
But you called for a revote here.
It's what you're doing.
Why do you say that?

Aren't these from boss fights?
They're from miniboss fights. I don't see why it's relevant though, they seem to be the same sizes when created as Helpers. Here is an example of this.

Sorry, I meant a split second. They wouldn't be impeding vision for a significant amount of time because they'd disappear on contact (and if so, the attacker could just keep moving).
The Helper could also keep attacking, and Kirby would probably start a distance away in the first place.
Okay, thanks. I find it odd that there's a delay between Kirby's attack and the boss launching off. It seems like Kirby depleted his health, which caused Marx to use his own energy to propel himself upwards like a rocket.
I don't see how being defeated would cause one to use their energy.
Does it say that he's moving at those speeds in instances where he doesn't rev up?
Doesn't say that he doesn't.
Many of them could likely keep moving while being attacked by tiny Kirby-scale enemies.
As I've said earlier, the Helpers can be a lot bigger than Kirby, they can also keep attacking.
A) Because of their other physical abilities. Kirby doesn't demonstrate anything that would imply he travels at 30 + MPH.
B) A rollerskate as a whole is heavier than Kirby. Kirby keeps spinning, meaning he's applying some sort of power/force/etc. to the wheel to keep him on the surface of the water.
A) Travel over the water.
B) Yes, a rollerskate cannot travel over the water, because it is too heavy. Let's look at the wheel of a skate then. It is both smaller and lighter than Kirby. When flicked into spinning over a small lake at a constant speed, it sinks. When Kirby travels over a lake of the same size, it doesn't sink. The reason for this is speed.
Of course, but not nearly as much as a human.
Then about 30+ MPH for Wheel Kirby.
The reason was to have Meta Knight. We see no signs of Kirby intending Meta Knight to do what he does.
The sign would be that Kirby wanted Meta Knight to do something, this is shown because Kirby summons him.
The visual design greatly resembles military-grade armor.
I don't see much of a comparison here.
Which would accomplish what exactly? Worth noting is that the LSA can chain together multiple targets in quick succession.
If Sonic got behind Kirby, the Helper would be able to get up some attacks on him.
B) No, Air Rides need a bit of charge time.
C) Or, you know, he could steer around it.
B) But when the Air Ride is charged, it takes a split second.
C) Is Sonic good at steering when he is being sucked up by a vacuum move?
The same way pulling a trigger on a gun and causing the bullet to leave the chamber would be one's attack. It's a chain reaction.
That is the shooter's attack because there is no other being to cause the bullet to fire. Sectonia caused the explosion. If you put the shooter and the gun in a dimension with nothing else, they could use the attack because it's theirs. If you put Kirby and the beam in a dimension with nothing else, Kirby couldn't use the explosion.
Attacks from Poppy Bros. Jr., Poppy Bros. Sr., Dark Daroach, Bombar, Doc, Balloon Bomber, etc.
What proves that his physiology and strength would allow him to do this?
His physiology is highly malleable. Seeing as he can lift tons, and Kirby shouldn't weight that much, he would be able to pull himself through a tight spot.
Same with a lot of attacks.
Except there's a disconnect between Kirby hitting Marx and Marx launching off (not to mention the radically different angles between the attack and Marx flying off).
The disconnect is just a dramatic pause that happens after the defeat of all Kirby bosses, and hitting things in different spots shouldn't have too much of an effect on how far Marx flies.
I don't see how being offensive/helpful would determine what a Luma can turn into.
Lumas don't get very offensive when transforming.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the position of the galaxies themselves. They're always the same on each playthrough, they have a common theme (i.e. Sweet Sweet Galaxy has sweets and perfectly shaped cookie cutter holes), etc.
Different playthroughs are just reliving the exact same moment over, it's not something characters do again and again.
  • Sorry, counterpoints.
  • Why not?
  • So, would this not indicate that PP and power are one in the same...?
  • Non-damaging moves can take up energy. However, Pokemon moving doesn't seem to take up energy, and Fly is a basic method of movement for flying Pokemon.
  • Ah. That just means they're out of the energy designated for their moves, but still have the energy needed for basic function (that is, until they faint).

  • There isn't really anything that has an energy system of both people and machines, it just doesn't make sense.
  • It would not indicate that, because power (Atk/Sp. Atk) is listed separately from the PP of moves that the Pokemon using the moves.
  • I imagine that carrying your trainer would take up quite a bit of energy. Also, there are moves where the Pokemon moves, and they don't use up PP. I can think of Agility.
  • What "basic function" are you referring to here?
How is that? I don't see how differences from a real black hole indicate that it is a real black hole.
What difference does the Schwarz's black hole have from a real black hole?
It is part of the design of the game.
Not artwork.
Right, Kirby being flattened is a design feature.
And not artwork.
Except we see him getting hurt by a hundred other things throughout the games. That's the consistent top stat.
None of those are top stats. Surviving the explosion would be the top stat.
Let's see here.
  • Lack of game mechanics.
  • Lack of glitches.
  • It shows what a character would do, as opposed to you playing that character. For example, in the gameplay of an RPG, you can talk to the same CPU thousands of times, but this wouldn't happen in a cutscene.
  • In gameplay, there are things added by the producers to make it difficult to complete the level. In cutscenes, the level is already completed, and there's nothing that needs to happen in order for the game to work out normally.
That wasn't very fast.
By what, exactly?
Paint.
How so? My reasoning for it is that we haven't seen it demonstrated, and Olimar has been shown to go insane on PNF-404, plus we can't take this as proof anyways since it's just characters talking rather than WoG.
It's more than characters talking. It is a ship's scanner, which informed us of what the slicer was for.
There sure was back on his last visit (which, by the way, happened shortly before Pikmin 2).
They have since been fixed. The actions done from insanity in Pikmin were not again done in Pikmin 2 by Olimar, and because of this, it's very safe to say that he doesn't have the insanity.
No, because they're the original developers of games in the series.
I still think we should take it as canon anyways, because it's something collected in a canon game.
He was just before it in Pikmin 1.
See above.
Ah. He has an ample amount of physical strength, although he doesn't rely on that as much as his speed. I wouldn't call it a "weakness"; more like a non-specialty, if that makes sense.
That is reasonable.
No, because of plot armor. The durability is disproven by the other times he's harmed/killed by other means.
See above.
So you agree?
Teleportation, Launch Stars, etc.
There's not really anywhere she could teleport or launch to in time.
How long can he maintain this state of intangibility, out of curiosity? Also, I'd imagine multiple rapid-fire Luma transforms would outlast Kirby's intangibility.
He can maintain it for about three seconds.

Hide Guard is a move that lets Kirby go invisible, so the Lumas wouldn't know where to shoot.
While this does make him rather potent, I do think there are a few characters that could defeat him. First off though, some things that should be considered:
  • The Lifesphere only heals 20 HP per turn as of New Mystery of the Emblem.
  • We should establish a turn-to-time ratio for Fire Emblem to determine how much of an effect this has.
  • The Geosphere's name seems to imply that it's some sort of earthquake, so flying characters should be fine.
Anyway, I'll go through how, say, Sonic could defeat Marth:
  • Falchion: Blue Tornado can take away enemies' shields, weapons, etc, meaning that this would take away both Marth's sword and shield (and the orbs within), leaving him helpless. Just for fun, though, I'll go over the rest.
  • Lightsphere doesn't have much relevance here.
  • Darksphere is countered by Sonic's willpower (he resists Dark Gaia's negative influences even when his body is changed into a Werehog).
  • Starsphere doesn't need countering.
  • Geosphere is an earthquake attack, so the flying abilities of Super Sonic should do the trick.
  • Lifesphere wouldn't be able to heal Marth before Sonic's speed and rapid-fire attacks finish him off.
Basically, Marth is only as good as his weapons. If you can get those away from him, he's helpless. If you can't, though, he's truly a force to be reckoned with.
  • I don't think remakes should take precedence over the older versions.
  • Agreed.
  • According to you, names don't mean anything. There is nothing that says the Geosphere is an earthquake attack.
  • Blue Tornado only removes shields of characters, but not their actual weapons. Marth wouldn't be using the Shield of Seals, he'd have the gemstones in his pocket or bag or something.
  • Agreed, plus it negates the Darksphere anyways.
  • Marth could just keep healing himself with Sol/Lifesphere anyways.
  • Agreed.
  • See above.
  • Sonic's speed attacks are negated by Falchion, and his projectiles aren't particularly fast.
 

Munomario777

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That's not what we actually want, though.
Opinions change after votes, but that doesn't always necessitate a revote.
But he can't use Chaos Control after Disable.
A) Super Sonic blocks it.
B) Sonic wouldn't have used Chaos Control before this point, and Disable blocks the last used move.
Their stats.
A) We don't see stats for the god monsters Sonic fights.
B) Stat values differ from series to series; one Pokemon speed point =/= one FE speed point.
A) Super Shadow punched him.
B) That's what happened with Super Shadow.
A) When?
B) When is it said that Super Shadow's invincibility caused this?
You called for the revote around page 130, we started listing rules on page 117.
Yes, and the original "vote" took place before we started listing rules (IIRC).
But you called for a revote here.
Because of the former lack of a formal system.
Why do you say that?
You said:
You didn't disprove anything more either.
Wikipedia said:
[An argument from ignorance] asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false.
They're from miniboss fights. I don't see why it's relevant though, they seem to be the same sizes when created as Helpers. Here is an example of this.
Do you have a screenshot of this being the case for other Helpers?
The Helper could also keep attacking, and Kirby would probably start a distance away in the first place.
Many characters could both shrug off the attacks and get close enough to Kirby.
I don't see how being defeated would cause one to use their energy.
Striking a bomb with a decent amount of force doesn't end up too well.
Doesn't say that he doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Anyway, it has. Kirby revs up to reach the Air Ride speeds, and he doesn't rev up in other games.
As I've said earlier, the Helpers can be a lot bigger than Kirby, they can also keep attacking.
They'd still be relatively small.
A) Travel over the water.
B) Yes, a rollerskate cannot travel over the water, because it is too heavy. Let's look at the wheel of a skate then. It is both smaller and lighter than Kirby. When flicked into spinning over a small lake at a constant speed, it sinks. When Kirby travels over a lake of the same size, it doesn't sink. The reason for this is speed.
A) Objects travel at the speeds shown unless otherwise stated.
B) Or self-propulsion, or being lighter (he can float by just inhaling normal air), or a combination of both.
Then about 30+ MPH for Wheel Kirby.
What is your source for this?
The sign would be that Kirby wanted Meta Knight to do something, this is shown because Kirby summons him.
I could summon a monster through a portal of some sort, but there's no guarantee that it'll do what I want it to do.
It seems rather similar to me. I don't see a comparison either, since there's only one image.
If Sonic got behind Kirby, the Helper would be able to get up some attacks on him.
Sonic is travelling at sonic/light speed at this point.
B) But when the Air Ride is charged, it takes a split second.
C) Is Sonic good at steering when he is being sucked up by a vacuum move?
B) True.
C) Depends on the speed of said vacuum. Doesn't matter though, since Sonic would simply avoid the inhale.
That is the shooter's attack because there is no other being to cause the bullet to fire. Sectonia caused the explosion. If you put the shooter and the gun in a dimension with nothing else, they could use the attack because it's theirs. If you put Kirby and the beam in a dimension with nothing else, Kirby couldn't use the explosion.
Kirby caused the explosion, so it's "his" explosion by virtue of the fact that it was caused by him. Kirby's attack caused it.
Attacks from Poppy Bros. Jr., Poppy Bros. Sr., Dark Daroach, Bombar, Doc, Balloon Bomber, etc.
Do these deal damage?
His physiology is highly malleable. Seeing as he can lift tons, and Kirby shouldn't weight that much, he would be able to pull himself through a tight spot.
When was it demonstrated to be malleable to the point of being able to squeeze through a hair-thin crack, and when does he lift tons?
Same with a lot of attacks.
And donning a new ability also takes a similar amount of time, leaving him rather open.
The disconnect is just a dramatic pause that happens after the defeat of all Kirby bosses, and hitting things in different spots shouldn't have too much of an effect on how far Marx flies.
Kirby's attack sends Marx sideways, and then he launches upwards.
Lumas don't get very offensive when transforming.
And?
Different playthroughs are just reliving the exact same moment over, it's not something characters do again and again.
Fair enough.
  • There isn't really anything that has an energy system of both people and machines, it just doesn't make sense.
  • It would not indicate that, because power (Atk/Sp. Atk) is listed separately from the PP of moves that the Pokemon using the moves.
  • I imagine that carrying your trainer would take up quite a bit of energy. Also, there are moves where the Pokemon moves, and they don't use up PP. I can think of Agility.
  • What "basic function" are you referring to here?
  • There isn't anything that inhales things and gains their power, yet Kirby is a character.
  • Power is the potency of moves, and PP is how much energy is left to use said moves.
  • This is a result of "infinite stamina", or how characters in games can run miles without tiring out. It's a game mechanic. As for Agility, it uses PP because A) it's increasing a stat and B) it's faster and more intense than a Pokemon usually moves at.
  • Moving, standing, etc.
What difference does the Schwarz's black hole have from a real black hole?
The mouth is not distorted.
Not artwork.

And not artwork.
I don't see how artwork would take precedence over the actual game. Otherwise, Kirby is gray.
None of those are top stats. Surviving the explosion would be the top stat.
Do we see Kirby level up in the instant between the boss fight and the explosion? No? Then it's an inconsistency.
Let's see here.
  • Lack of game mechanics.
  • Lack of glitches.
  • It shows what a character would do, as opposed to you playing that character. For example, in the gameplay of an RPG, you can talk to the same CPU thousands of times, but this wouldn't happen in a cutscene.
  • In gameplay, there are things added by the producers to make it difficult to complete the level. In cutscenes, the level is already completed, and there's nothing that needs to happen in order for the game to work out normally.
  • Which we don't account for.
  • Yeah, no.
  • This is only relevant to personality and such.
  • And?
That wasn't very fast.
It's faster than Kirby could exit Stone, change abilities, make a Helper, get a new ability, and re-enter Stone.
It only affects a certain boss, if I'm not mistaken.
It's more than characters talking. It is a ship's scanner, which informed us of what the slicer was for.
The ship has a personality, and A.I. etc. counts as a character.
They have since been fixed. The actions done from insanity in Pikmin were not again done in Pikmin 2 by Olimar, and because of this, it's very safe to say that he doesn't have the insanity.
He might not show it, but he just had it the other day.
I still think we should take it as canon anyways, because it's something collected in a canon game.
The attributes aren't given to it by the original developers.
So you agree?
I'm agreeing that Rainbow Mario hasn't been shown to negate it, but if Protect blocks it, Starman does as well (in accordance to the rule).
There's not really anywhere she could teleport or launch to in time.
She could go to the other side of the arena. She could also tell the Luma to wait until she's ready to transform.
He can maintain it for about three seconds.
I see.
Hide Guard is a move that lets Kirby go invisible, so the Lumas wouldn't know where to shoot.
I think that's only available while taking damage, which would knock the ability out of Kirby in the case of a galaxy-sized explosion.
  • I don't think remakes should take precedence over the older versions.
  • Agreed.
  • According to you, names don't mean anything. There is nothing that says the Geosphere is an earthquake attack.
  • Blue Tornado only removes shields of characters, but not their actual weapons. Marth wouldn't be using the Shield of Seals, he'd have the gemstones in his pocket or bag or something.
  • Agreed, plus it negates the Darksphere anyways.
  • Marth could just keep healing himself with Sol/Lifesphere anyways.
  • Agreed.
  • See above.
  • Sonic's speed attacks are negated by Falchion, and his projectiles aren't particularly fast.
  • Why not? It's basically an updated version, almost like a retcon of the original.
  • K.
  • When we don't have anything else to go by, names can give us some clues.
  • Doesn't the shield hold the gems? Also, if it can take away shields held in the hand, I don't see why it couldn't take away swords as well.
  • Out of curiosity, are the mind-corrupting effects the Darksphere has on Marth negated if he also has the Lightsphere?
  • It wouldn't happen constantly; only every turn (which we still need a measurement for).
  • K.
  • K.
  • Falchion is gone (if Blue Tornado fails, he could just run up and grab it), and the projectiles can be very quick (see Sonic Wind for example.
 

Frizz

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I honestly don't want to get all Death-Battle here, where you get every piece of detail of a fighter and compare it with others to see who is stronger, but I'm going with Robin, the amnesiac tactician of the Shepherds of Ylisse. He has a gift of tactics and strategy, so he has plans and back up plans for everything. He even beat the God of Destruction alongside an endless, ruthless army of the undead too.
 

Crystanium

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My post about Mario's average velocity should soon be proved that he's better off jumping forward instead of running. Mario jumps 130 pixels in the New Super Mario Bros. U. Mario is about 51 pixels tall (5'1", or 1.5494 m.). I had to ignore his squirrel suit's hat and guesstimate where his head ends.

130 px. / 51 px. = 2.55

1.5494 m. * 2.55 = 3.94945098039215693262 m., or 12.96 ft.

v = sqrt(2gh)
v = sqrt(2(9.81 m/s^2)(3.95 m.))
v = 8.8027398141314002498578866876376635428705221 m/s, or 19.96 mi/h.

My last calculation for Mario's speed resulted in 16.06 mi/h. So, yeah.
 

ShadowLBlue

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Messages
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My stance exactly.
Cool.
Yes, from what I can gather. The rule is the thing about the invincibility from various series being treated as equal unless otherwise proven.
Oh ok.

They both depend on leg strength, so I don't see why they wouldn't indicate the other.
Like Dryn said below, they don't necessairly rely on the same muscles, plus if you watch sports there are guys who can run fast but don't have equally insane verticals, or vice versa. Like Dryn said, the correlation is uncertain.
Worth noting is that this isn't actually Meta Knight; it seems to be a clone. That means that we shouldn't associate all of MK's abilities with the clone unless there's another reason to do so.
I was actually the one who pointed that out to KD, but I think the latter is a good point.


I think he's saying that he could survive a few of them.
He can survive 6, since I believe that's the most HP bars he's had.

Black holes rely on gravity rather than actual auction, and Stone increases Kirby's gravity.
Marx has a black hole attack that doesn't affect Stone Kirby at all, so I doubt a Luma's would suck him up either.

This enemy sucks Kirby(s) in to deal damage. He's saying that this is a black hole because some in-game character says so and it sucks things in, while I'm saying that it's not due to the lack of distortion around the mouth area along with the other differences (or at least, it's not similar to a real black hole). Kirby can escape the pull of this enemy (represented by the purple area), so this is rather crucial to the Kirby vs. Rosalina matchup.
I actually didn't say that, that was KD. Mmy black hole comment was about Marx. Idk what Kirby that game even is. It doesn't look like a black hole to me though.


There's a few incorrect things here. First, I suspect you've never raised a child, meaning you likely lack the knowledge about running and jumping. Toddlers don't know how to jump. They have to learn. It's quite funny to watch, actually. .
So true, watching my niece try to jump when she was between like 12-18 months was hilarious. She tried so hard and got maybe an inch off the ground.

@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue
Rout not Route. I would have bought Awakening years ago if it wasn’t behind the pay wall of a 3DS (I’d rather spend my limited funds on a Wii U for Smash, Mario Kart and Xenoblade X). The only way I’d get it anytime soon is if I could get a cheap used 3DS like how I got my regular DS.
Good luck with that, I had to replace mine and paid like $268. That being said, it's a great system, if you can afford it you should get it.
ANd you play Mario Kart 8? I need someone to play online with and I prefer playing with people I know (same goes for Smash actually).

It sounds like FE6 came up with all the map gimmicks (appearing and disappearing bridges, poison gas jets and hotspots) that FE7 and FE8 copied.
Yep. One chapter even has light arrows, though those are easily avoided. (They shoot an arrow that moves vertically across the stage and can hurt any unit.

There is no Rexcalibur in FE6, do you mean Aircalibur? That level 4 Sage was Lilina, right (I have heard she was good due to a strong magic growth)? Sages are amazing in the GBA games but they got nerfed hard in Radiant Dawn due to having the same movement range as Generals and having both poor speed growths and caps.
Yea, I got my wind spells mixed up. And yea it was her, her magic growth's are insane. One of the few unit's I've had to cap out a stat before reaching level 20 (I realize that's partially luck with RNG but still). She's taken over Derek's role as my go-to boss killer (especially when adjacent to her A support partner Roy). FYI, Derek is this game's Gerik (unit wise).
And that sucks. I'm going to have to emulate that game if the price never comes down for it.

I found another video you might like as well about that level in Fire Emblem 7 (warning late game Fire Emblem 6 spoilers in the last few minutes of this video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnZulWumiig
The DS version of Advance Wars is easy compared to the original. If you thought FoW, status staves, Wyvern riders and Manaketes on a desert map were bad, well look at this mission from Advance Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FYEUlCgbI
Well I didn't drop it because it was hard (which I didn't think), just lack of interest.

Are you aware of the nature of True Hit in the Fire Emblem games http://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/?
No, but I feel like the exact opposite occurs lol. Missed two 87 displayed hits vs Narshen (a Wyvern Lord) while using a lvl 6 nomad trooper with a killer bow. Was pissed.
I’ve been thinking, would you say that the Fire Emblem games have educational value especially for things like Algebra and judging probability (I would imagine my math skills would have deteriorated without playing all those Fire Emblem games to keep me sharp)?
IDK about Algebra but I'd say yes to probability. I know in grade school Yu-gi-oh helped my math skills lol.

I wonder what a collaboration between Intelligent Systems and Monolith Soft on a Fire Emblem game would look like (Sci-fi Emblem)?
IDK but it sounds like something I'd throw my money at.
If you have a PS3 or a strong enough PC you can always give Valkyria Chronicles a chance. It’s my favorite game alongside Xenoblade Chronicles from last generation and one of the few games that can compete with Fire Emblem when it comes to Unit personality and strategy
.

I'll try to emulate it but I doubt my current PC can handle it. I plan on getting a quad core processor Mac soon though so I think that could handle it.

Sonic is an annoying Gary Stu. Why does he always have to be better than everyone!? I can name multiple Sega characters that are better than him!
IKR? He's like the Superman of video game characters.

Edit: Excellent analysis, Nerdicon. With respect to Link and Toon Link, I brought up the question before of whether or not adult Link and young Link should be regarded as separate incarnations.
I'd personally rather we not since we're using composite Link and he can literally do anything Toon/Young Link can. It just seems unnecessary to rank them all separately.


You know what, Marth is way better than I gave him credit for on account of the Fire Emblem and Falchion. Let's take a quick look.
The Falchion grants Marth invulnerability to direct non-dragon attacks as you already know. It's seemingly indestructible.
The Fire Emblem grants Marth a small buff to all of his stats and more, importantly, hold the various spheres of the shield.
The Lightsphere negates enemy terrain bonuses (like hiding in shrubs to reduce damage), The Darksphere controls the opponents mind so they don't attack Marth, the Starsphere makes it so weapon durability does not deplete, the Geosphere has three uses and it damages every entity on the field besides the holder, and the Lifesphere heals Marth back to full health at the end of each turn.
Not to mention he can reclass into any male class, so he can start shooting a bow or using some magic if he needs to.
Marth is a much more serious threat than I originally thought, everyone seemingly having a tie with him at best.
I haven't played that game but I did research a little bit into a few weeks ago, and need to point out some problems with your post:
  • putting the spheres inside the Emblem causes them to lose their powers.
  • Having the lightsphere and darksphere at the same time cancels out the darksphere's effects.
  • That was Marth's Einharjar in Awakening, not actual Marth, as me and @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 discussed. So he, nor Ike, shouldn't get access to reclassing.
Regardless, I agree Falchion + Darksphere makes him a mid B tier at worst.

  • Prove that Marth is stronger than the Badniks. Ike =/= Marth.
You've got to be joking, Marth is easily stronger than any generic Badnik. He would cut them in half without breaking a sweat.
Also, is Blue tornado capable of knocking things out of hammer space?


I'm not sure what tomes and Starlight have to do with this. Also, to clarify, I was referring to light/holy attributes (i.e. being the Goddess of Light) rather than attacks (i.e. Light Arrows).
His point was Darksphere can only be countered by a certain, specially made magic item rather than generic light/holy things, although I think Palutena would qualify.

@Dryn From what I can gather, it's not possible to use the darksphere without using the Shield of seals in FE, so it's not possible to really know how it works in game for the player.
 

Munomario777

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My post about Mario's average velocity should soon be proved that he's better off jumping forward instead of running. Mario jumps 130 pixels in the New Super Mario Bros. U. Mario is about 51 pixels tall (5'1", or 1.5494 m.). I had to ignore his squirrel suit's hat and guesstimate where his head ends.

130 px. / 51 px. = 2.55

1.5494 m. * 2.55 = 3.94945098039215693262 m., or 12.96 ft.

v = sqrt(2gh)
v = sqrt(2(9.81 m/s^2)(3.95 m.))
v = 8.8027398141314002498578866876376635428705221 m/s, or 19.96 mi/h.

My last calculation for Mario's speed resulted in 16.06 mi/h. So, yeah.
Don't forget the long jump, which actually sends Mario forwards at higher speeds than his regular run, or better yet the rolling long jump from 3D Land/World, which has Mario roll forwards at high speeds and then long jump off the ground in a super-fancy pose.
Like Dryn said below, they don't necessairly rely on the same muscles, plus if you watch sports there are guys who can run fast but don't have equally insane verticals, or vice versa. Like Dryn said, the correlation is uncertain.
Fair enough.
I was actually the one who pointed that out to KD, but I think the latter is a good point.
Right, just restating it.
He can survive 6, since I believe that's the most HP bars he's had.
It depends. First we need to know how much damage each HP point represents. If Kirby has been hit with a force equal to that of Sonic's attack and sustained only one HP, then yes, he could take six of them.
Marx has a black hole attack that doesn't affect Stone Kirby at all, so I doubt a Luma's would suck him up either.
Black holes rely on gravity, and Stone Kirby has increased gravity, so if this doesn't pull him in, then it doesn't seem to match a real black hole. Also, I seem to remember a lack of distortion, but I'm not sure.
I actually didn't say that, that was KD. Mmy black hole comment was about Marx. Idk what Kirby that game even is. It doesn't look like a black hole to me though.
Right; just filling you in.
I'd personally rather we not since we're using composite Link and he can literally do anything Toon/Young Link can. It just seems unnecessary to rank them all separately.
I think it would be nice to have TP, TWW, OoT/MM, and Composite Link all on one list.
I haven't played that game but I did research a little bit into a few weeks ago, and need to point out some problems with your post:
  • putting the spheres inside the Emblem causes them to lose their powers.
  • Having the lightsphere and darksphere at the same time cancels out the darksphere's effects.
  • That was Marth's Einharjar in Awakening, not actual Marth, as me and @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 discussed. So he, nor Ike, shouldn't get access to reclassing.
Regardless, I agree Falchion + Darksphere makes him a mid B tier at worst.
Interesting. Can Marth use multiple spheres at once, and does he have to do anything to equip them at the start of a battle?
You've got to be joking, Marth is easily stronger than any generic Badnik. He would cut them in half without breaking a sweat.
Prove it.
Also, is Blue tornado capable of knocking things out of hammer space?
Not that I know of, although I don't see how this would be a problem if the sword and shield are in Marth's hands, and the spheres are in the shield.
His point was Darksphere can only be countered by a certain, specially made magic item rather than generic light/holy things, although I think Palutena would qualify.
Ah, I see.
 

Crystanium

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Don't forget the long jump, which actually sends Mario forwards at higher speeds than his regular run, or better yet the rolling long jump from 3D Land/World, which has Mario roll forwards at high speeds and then long jump off the ground in a super-fancy pose.
I am reminded of Mario's long jump in Super Mario 64, now that you mentioned it.
 

Kirby Dragons

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Opinions change after votes, but that doesn't always necessitate a revote.
I don't see why it wouldn't. The rules that we have are all rules because most of us want them. If most of us don't want a rule, it shouldn't be a rule.
A) Super Sonic blocks it.
B) Sonic wouldn't have used Chaos Control before this point, and Disable blocks the last used move.
A) It does not.
B) Sonic would be using Chaos Control to escape Mewtwo holding him in place. After that, Mewtwo uses Disable, following up with more telekinesis to hold Sonic in place, now Sonic can't escape because he can't use Chaos Control.
A) We don't see stats for the god monsters Sonic fights.
B) Stat values differ from series to series; one Pokemon speed point =/= one FE speed point.
Mewtwo can destroy planets, much like the Sonic villains. There's their attack potency right there.
A) When?
B) When is it said that Super Shadow's invincibility caused this?
A) In Sonic X.
B) The reason Shadow could hurt him was because he was Super Shadow. According to you, Super Shadow is the same as Protect.
Yes, and the original "vote" took place before we started listing rules (IIRC).
I still don't see how that relates in any way, shape, or form to revoting.
Because of the former lack of a formal system.
How does that relate to revotes?
[An argument from ignorance] asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false.
Actually, I'm saying that it's true because that's what I did most accurately, you just don't believe me when I say it.
Do you have a screenshot of this being the case for other Helpers?
Bugzzy helper.PNG

Many characters could both shrug off the attacks and get close enough to Kirby.
Not close enough in time.
Striking a bomb with a decent amount of force doesn't end up too well.
The bomb is made to explode. Marx is not made to rocket off into a planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Anyway, it has. Kirby revs up to reach the Air Ride speeds, and he doesn't rev up in other games.
That isn't a statement.
They'd still be relatively small.
There are objects that are smaller than them (soccer balls, for example) that can still cause pain with enough force.
A) Objects travel at the speeds shown unless otherwise stated.
B) Or self-propulsion, or being lighter (he can float by just inhaling normal air), or a combination of both.
A) Then :mario2::luigi2::peach::rosalina: don't run at 20 MPH.
B) Self-propulsion is irrelevant if the rollerskate's wheel doesn't lose any speed over the small lake of water that it travels over. Kirby as a wheel should be just as heavy as a rollerskate's wheel, if not heavier.
What is your source for this?
I'm just estimating.
I could summon a monster through a portal of some sort, but there's no guarantee that it'll do what I want it to do.
I don't see anything else Kirby would want MK to do, besides attacking.
It seems rather similar to me. I don't see a comparison either, since there's only one image.
Oh, well here is another image.
Sonic is travelling at sonic/light speed at this point.
Not to get behind Kirby, he isn't.
B) True.
C) Depends on the speed of said vacuum. Doesn't matter though, since Sonic would simply avoid the inhale.
C) He is trying to use the LSA on Kirby. He can't avoid the inhale if he is moving toward it.
Kirby caused the explosion, so it's "his" explosion by virtue of the fact that it was caused by him. Kirby's attack caused it.
Just because Kirby caused it, that doesn't make it his. I can "cause" (make) a sandwich for someone, that doesn't make the sandwich mine. The sandwich belongs to that someone, and the explosion belongs to Sectonia.
Do these deal damage?
They do.
When was it demonstrated to be malleable to the point of being able to squeeze through a hair-thin crack, and when does he lift tons?
You can slip through the crack if you're flat. Kirby lifts 3.5 tons, as was calculated by throwing Popon around the sun.
And donning a new ability also takes a similar amount of time, leaving him rather open.
Not if the Helper stops the attack by attacking it.
Kirby's attack sends Marx sideways, and then he launches upwards.
Fail to see why Marx would launch himself. The only explanation is Kirby's attack, and that the move sideways was just to build up suspense.
They can't turn into black holes.
  • There isn't anything that inhales things and gains their power, yet Kirby is a character.
  • Power is the potency of moves, and PP is how much energy is left to use said moves.
  • This is a result of "infinite stamina", or how characters in games can run miles without tiring out. It's a game mechanic. As for Agility, it uses PP because A) it's increasing a stat and B) it's faster and more intense than a Pokemon usually moves at.
  • Moving, standing, etc.
  • It is confirmed that Kirby inhales things and gains their powers. You are speculating that Pokemon have energy systems of both humans and machines.
  • Said moves are used by power. If they were energy, they would take away more power points when a strong Pokemon uses a move, as opposed to when a weak Pokemon uses the same move.
  • If we're going to call "infinite stamina" a game mechanic, then that would mean that all of everyone's attacks have limited usage. Fly should use up energy because A) the Pokemon is carrying a trainer and B) the Pokemon is traveling a long distance.
  • The basic function of a Pokemon is to battle other Pokemon with their moves that use PP.
The mouth is not distorted.
This is due to the artwork, not due to the fact that it isn't a black hole.
I don't see how artwork would take precedence over the actual game. Otherwise, Kirby is gray.
Schwarz' creating a real black hole is part of the actual game.
Do we see Kirby level up in the instant between the boss fight and the explosion? No? Then it's an inconsistency.
The "level up" should be that it's a cutscene, because they are more accurate.
  • Which we don't account for.
  • Yeah, no.
  • This is only relevant to personality and such.
  • And?
The fourth one applies to this situation. If, in the gameplay, they had the durability that Kirby had shown, the game would be too easy.
It's faster than Kirby could exit Stone, change abilities, make a Helper, get a new ability, and re-enter Stone.
That shouldn't be a problem, Kirby will heal himself afterward.
It only affects a certain boss, if I'm not mistaken.
Because the paint went into the boss' eyes. If the paint was shot into Sonic's eyes, he'd be blinded.
The ship has a personality, and A.I. etc. counts as a character.
Since there are two different characters that observed the property of cutting space and time, that would mean that there is a property that it cuts space and time.
He might not show it, but he just had it the other day.
He went insane because he was stranded on an alien planet. In Pikmin 2, he should've lost the insanity because he's no longer stranded; he could've left whenever he wanted via the Hocotate ship.
The attributes aren't given to it by the original developers.
The Dimensional Slicer is not an attribute, it is an item.
I'm agreeing that Rainbow Mario hasn't been shown to negate it, but if Protect blocks it, Starman does as well (in accordance to the rule).
The rule that most of us don't like.
She could go to the other side of the arena.
The explosion would reach the other side of the arena.
She could also tell the Luma to wait until she's ready to transform.
During this lag, Kirby could go Ghost Kirby and possess the Luma, then become a galaxy and kill Rosalina when she's not ready.
I think that's only available while taking damage, which would knock the ability out of Kirby in the case of a galaxy-sized explosion.
Kirby wouldn't be using it to avoid the explosion, he'd be using teleportation for that.
  • Why not? It's basically an updated version, almost like a retcon of the original.
  • K.
  • When we don't have anything else to go by, names can give us some clues.
  • Doesn't the shield hold the gems? Also, if it can take away shields held in the hand, I don't see why it couldn't take away swords as well.
  • Out of curiosity, are the mind-corrupting effects the Darksphere has on Marth negated if he also has the Lightsphere?
  • It wouldn't happen constantly; only every turn (which we still need a measurement for).
  • K.
  • K.
  • Falchion is gone (if Blue Tornado fails, he could just run up and grab it), and the projectiles can be very quick (see Sonic Wind for example).
  • I still don't think that should bury the older version. They are games in the series that haven't been considered non-canon.
  • I'm pretty sure that it isn't an earthquake in the FE games, it just seems like an undepicted attack.
  • If the shield holds the gems, their effects will be negated, so Marth won't be using it. When Sonic starts Blue Tornado, Marth could always sheathe his swords to protect them.
  • I believe so, but I'm not sure.

  • Sonic Wind isn't even that quick.
 
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Munomario777

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I don't see why it wouldn't. The rules that we have are all rules because most of us want them. If most of us don't want a rule, it shouldn't be a rule.
In America, the public changing their mind doesn't mean a "revote" takes place.
A) It does not.
B) Sonic would be using Chaos Control to escape Mewtwo holding him in place. After that, Mewtwo uses Disable, following up with more telekinesis to hold Sonic in place, now Sonic can't escape because he can't use Chaos Control.
A) It does with the current rules.
B) Sonic could use ranged attacks, or he could use Chaos Control to freeze time before Mewtwo could use Disable.
Mewtwo can destroy planets, much like the Sonic villains. There's their attack potency right there.
How does he do this?
A) In Sonic X.
B) The reason Shadow could hurt him was because he was Super Shadow. According to you, Super Shadow is the same as Protect.
A) Games > Sonic X.
B) The invincibility of Super Shadow is the same as Protect (unless otherwise specified), but the invincibility of Super Shadow is irrelevant to the attacking power of Super Shadow.
I still don't see how that relates in any way, shape, or form to revoting.

How does that relate to revotes?
It's best to vote when you actually have a good system for voting.
Actually, I'm saying that it's true because that's what I did most accurately, you just don't believe me when I say it.
You didn't prove anything; you made a claim, and claims must be proven.
Then we'll use that size.
Not close enough in time.
It depends on the character.
The bomb is made to explode. Marx is not made to rocket off into a planet.
A car is not made to explode, yet it can explode.
That isn't a statement.
How so?
There are objects that are smaller than them (soccer balls, for example) that can still cause pain with enough force.
And the force comes from a larger object (i.e. a human leg) in the soccer ball's case.
A) Then :mario2::luigi2::peach::rosalina: don't run at 20 MPH.
B) Self-propulsion is irrelevant if the rollerskate's wheel doesn't lose any speed over the small lake of water that it travels over. Kirby as a wheel should be just as heavy as a rollerskate's wheel, if not heavier.
A) They don't move at those speeds in the games, but their leg strength means that they could. Also, Dryn's calculations.
B) The wheel does lose speed, though, due to things like air resistance. Prove that Kirby is as heavy as a rollerskate wheel.
I'm just estimating.
Then it should be disregarded.
I don't see anything else Kirby would want MK to do, besides attacking.
Fly him through the level?
Oh, well here is another image.
That's person armor, not machine armor.
Not to get behind Kirby, he isn't.
Because...?
C) He is trying to use the LSA on Kirby. He can't avoid the inhale if he is moving toward it.
He could simply go behind Kirby; the move can circle around enemies.
Just because Kirby caused it, that doesn't make it his. I can "cause" (make) a sandwich for someone, that doesn't make the sandwich mine. The sandwich belongs to that someone, and the explosion belongs to Sectonia.
Ownership of a sandwich is irrelevant to friendly fire; the sandwich isn't trying to harm you.
Then Kirby takes damage from explosions more commonly than he doesn't, and the Sectonia explosion is overruled.
You can slip through the crack if you're flat. Kirby lifts 3.5 tons, as was calculated by throwing Popon around the sun.
Kirby isn't flat, though. He's trying to get flat. Giga Bowser + the Clown Car would weigh more than 3.5 tons.
Not if the Helper stops the attack by attacking it.
The Helper can't move during the summoning, and likely couldn't react in time given that delay.
Fail to see why Marx would launch himself. The only explanation is Kirby's attack, and that the move sideways was just to build up suspense.
Kirby's attack caused the launch, but didn't provide the force. It's like lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite; the match causes the explosion, but the force comes from the explosives inside the stick.
They can't turn into black holes.
How does Lumas not being offensive when turning into non-offensive things mean they can't turn into black holes?
  • It is confirmed that Kirby inhales things and gains their powers. You are speculating that Pokemon have energy systems of both humans and machines.
  • Said moves are used by power. If they were energy, they would take away more power points when a strong Pokemon uses a move, as opposed to when a weak Pokemon uses the same move.
  • If we're going to call "infinite stamina" a game mechanic, then that would mean that all of everyone's attacks have limited usage. Fly should use up energy because A) the Pokemon is carrying a trainer and B) the Pokemon is traveling a long distance.
  • The basic function of a Pokemon is to battle other Pokemon with their moves that use PP.
  • We know that Pokemon use some sort of energy system; PP stands for Power Points. I'm looking into what exactly this energy system could be like.
  • Strong Pokemon have more energy than weak Pokemon.
  • Eventually a character would get tired out, unless it's stated that it's an attribute of the character, shown in a cutscene, etc. I'd be fine with giving Pokemon and other characters limited stamina, and putting Fly into that limitation.
  • No, the most basic functions are breathing, movement, standing, etc.
This is due to the artwork, not due to the fact that it isn't a black hole.
Because...?
Schwarz' creating a real black hole is part of the actual game.
No, because of the lack of distortion.
The "level up" should be that it's a cutscene, because they are more accurate.
How are cutscenes inherently more accurate? They take the same priority as gameplay.
The fourth one applies to this situation. If, in the gameplay, they had the durability that Kirby had shown, the game would be too easy.
And in the cutscene, Kirby has plot armor. Prove that that one cutscene's portrayal is correct, rather than the rest of the series.
That shouldn't be a problem, Kirby will heal himself afterward.
Many attacks would be quick enough to finish him off, or at least knock Stone out of him.
Because the paint went into the boss' eyes. If the paint was shot into Sonic's eyes, he'd be blinded.
He could just dodge the paint.
Since there are two different characters that observed the property of cutting space and time, that would mean that there is a property that it cuts space and time.
When is it said or shown that they observed it? (By WoG, not characters that could very well be wrong.)
He went insane because he was stranded on an alien planet. In Pikmin 2, he should've lost the insanity because he's no longer stranded; he could've left whenever he wanted via the Hocotate ship.
Being back in this place where he was stranded is likely bringing back memories, and possibly the insanity. I think it might be called PTSD, but I'm not quite sure.
The Dimensional Slicer is not an attribute, it is an item.
And the attribute of slicing dimensions is an attribute.
The rule that most of us don't like.
And which is in the rules list that we all use.
The explosion would reach the other side of the arena.
Intangibility, then.
During this lag, Kirby could go Ghost Kirby and possess the Luma, then become a galaxy and kill Rosalina when she's not ready.
Kirby would be unprotected during this time switching the abilities. Also, Kirby can't possess mid-bosses or bosses, and I think a Luma fits into that size category.
Kirby wouldn't be using it to avoid the explosion, he'd be using teleportation for that.
Ah. Still, the point stands if he used it for other attacks.
  • I still don't think that should bury the older version. They are games in the series that haven't been considered non-canon.
  • I'm pretty sure that it isn't an earthquake in the FE games, it just seems like an undepicted attack.
  • If the shield holds the gems, their effects will be negated, so Marth won't be using it. When Sonic starts Blue Tornado, Marth could always sheathe his swords to protect them.
  • I believe so, but I'm not sure.

  • Sonic Wind isn't even that quick.
  • They're considered non-canon by virtue of the fact that they've been redone. It's like starting over and redoing that game, replacing the old one.
  • It's not depicted to be a specific type of attack, so we use the closest match so we at least have something to work with.
  • Can Marth hold all of them at once, though? If Marth sheaths his swords, the Blue Tornado would slide them out, unless they're super-grippy sheaths or something.
  • It takes less than a second.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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I'm not sure why you posted a FE link.
  • So, how long is a turn in the games the Lifesphere appears in?
  • Do they fly close to the ground? An earthquake could cause damage to those who aren't quite grounded via shrapnel, vibrations causing waves in the air, etc.
Good plan.
  • Can’t say. We would have to account for factors like the scale of the battlefield (using an indoor setting would give the best results due to it’s smaller scale), the fact that combatants won’t be charging at each other (so no using Olympic sprinting records) but will be going at a marching pace to avoid exhaustion (this is before accounting for bards and dancers giving a unit a chance to move and attack twice in one player phase), and the fact that a unit can fight back against and even kill multiple enemies on the enemy phase such as in this example (https://youtu.be/Vj6BQKHjW9I?t=920 Pent kills an archer at 15:25-15:37, a Mage at 15:55-16:06, another archer at 16:15-16:25, and a knight at 16:44-16:54. All four kills occur in turn 1 and it could have easily been six kills if the Monk didn‘t attack Lucius or the Mage strike at Florina.).
  • Under most circumstances they fly close to the ground so they can land melee blows on their enemies but they are capable of flying high in the sky as well. Examples include map and combat scenes https://youtu.be/T-Tdl2xh9_w?list=PLDD430D2E5337F3F1&t=74 at 1:14-1:36 and Cutscenes https://youtu.be/tquKa4_xCQA?t=81 at 1:22-1:30 and 1:42-1:53 (I love how a mess of Dracoknights go flying by and then a trio of Falconknights follow up the rear).
It’s an excellent plan against anyone who has troublesome equipment and who can’t bring their opponent to battle (the fact that the Falchion is a melee weapon and the Geosphere is good for only 3 uses is why Marth is vulnerable to this tactic).

The tornado against Ike looked pretty bad***.
@Dryn If you want to see more of what Fire Emblem magic users are capable of then watch this at https://youtu.be/SXb5moPCWYY Fire magic at 0:00-0:47, Thunder at 1:36-2:10, Wind at 3:05-3:37, Light at 4:34-5:40, and Dark at 6:31-7:06. A Critical and Mastery Skill collection can also be found here at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLoNkLC5FIU . The dark magics Ereshkigal from FE7 and Naglfar from FE8 are pretty impressive as well.

@Dryn If you like crunching numbers so much why not give one of the Fire Emblem games a spin? Surely you will enjoy playing with probability and Murphy’s law.

Stat values differ from series to series; one Pokemon speed point =/= one FE speed point.

Sonic is travelling at sonic/light speed at this point.
Speed in Pokemon determines who moves 1st while speed in Fire Emblem determines Attack Speed (a high enough disparity between combatants lets the faster one strike twice) and is also the primary stat for evasion (luck being the secondary stat), making it arguably the most important stat in the series. I don’t know what the most important stat is in Pokemon. This is why you can’t compare the two.

When did Sonic go at light speed, and how is he going to avoid hurting himself?

I don’t recall Kirby leveling up in a main game and surviving the explosion would be considered a case of Plot Armor.

I doubt the mind corrupting effects will hamper Marth, they may even make him even more aggressive in this case.
Sonic isn’t a thief last time I checked and even if he were equipped weapons can’t be stolen anyway (It‘s a game mechanic in the series).

I honestly don't want to get all Death-Battle here, where you get every piece of detail of a fighter and compare it with others to see who is stronger, but I'm going with Robin, the amnesiac tactician of the Shepherds of Ylisse. He has a gift of tactics and strategy, so he has plans and back up plans for everything. He even beat the God of Destruction alongside an endless, ruthless army of the undead too.
Robin is definitely a high tier combatant but since this is a one on one duel scenario the only tactics or strategy boil down to what equipment and skills to bring. The female version of Robin is likely the superior option. A Lucina with Robin as mother has all the skills that Robin has and is also statistically superior. I should also remind you that his comrades covered for him against that army of undead.

So true, watching my niece try to jump when she was between like 12-18 months was hilarious. She tried so hard and got maybe an inch off the ground.
Isn't hilariousness supposed to be what young children are for.

@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue
Good luck with that, I had to replace mine and paid like $268. That being said, it's a great system, if you can afford it you should get it.
And you play Mario Kart 8? I need someone to play online with and I prefer playing with people I know (same goes for Smash actually).

Yep. One chapter even has light arrows, though those are easily avoided. (They shoot an arrow that moves vertically across the stage and can hurt any unit.

Yea, I got my wind spells mixed up. And yea it was her, her magic growth's are insane. One of the few unit's I've had to cap out a stat before reaching level 20 (I realize that's partially luck with RNG but still). She's taken over Derek's role as my go-to boss killer (especially when adjacent to her A support partner Roy). FYI, Derek is this game's Gerik (unit wise).
And that sucks. I'm going to have to emulate that game if the price never comes down for it.

Well I didn't drop it because it was hard (which I didn't think), just lack of interest.

No, but I feel like the exact opposite occurs lol. Missed two 87 displayed hits vs Narshen (a Wyvern Lord) while using a lvl 6 nomad trooper with a killer bow. Was pissed.

IDK about Algebra but I'd say yes to probability. I know in grade school Yu-gi-oh helped my math skills lol.

IDK but it sounds like something I'd throw my money at.

I'll try to emulate it but I doubt my current PC can handle it. I plan on getting a quad core processor Mac soon though so I think that could handle it.
I don’t own a Wii U yet, but Mario Kart 8 is considered mandatory here where I live as my younger brother and his friends have been playing Double Dash before the Walking Dead goes on.
You don’t know me, I’m just an anonymous poster on the internet!

I know! Top floor of the Tower of Valni.

Yes, Gerik and Derek rhythm!

Prices online:
GameStop: $70 and rare.
Amazon: $70 and up.
EBay: Assorted prices but are they too good to be true?

I don’t blame you for emulating to escape those obnoxious scalpers and those funds would be better used to purchase Fire Emblem if and it’s DLC.
I don’t know if they will release Radiant Dawn on the Wii U’s virtual console because of the data transfer feature from Path of Radiance (Jill and Nephenee get a substantial boost if you can carry over a strength and speed bonus).

There’s only a 1 in 947 chance of that happening so it’s hardly unheard of, and at least nobody died right? The opposite seems to occur more often because the Epic Fail moments are more memorable then the times you evade multiple moderate accuracy attacks. Think about how often the A.I. gets screwed over by your own critical hits and misses.

I said Algebra because that’s how I figured out the relationship between things like Speed and Luck adding up to the Avoid stat. Ex. Avoid=Speed*2+Luck translates to X=Y*2+Z. The same can be said for pretty much all formulas that work behind the scenes in RPGs.

Too bad the Pokemon fans would rather have a Game Freak + Monolith Soft collaboration for their open world Pokemon game.

I mean you can purchase it for cheap off of Steam (it even comes with the DLC) and it’s constantly been joked that it can run on a toaster. I’ve heard the bugs on this port are easy to avoid or don’t break the game. It’s definitely one of the best former PS3 exclusives and one of Sega’s best games from that generation.

Looking forward to Xenoblade Chronicles X and Fire Emblem if?

IKR? He's like the Superman of video game characters.

@Dryn From what I can gather, it's not possible to use the darksphere without using the Shield of seals in FE, so it's not possible to really know how it works in game for the player.
Don’t you mean the Flash, considering he gets OHKOed by everything without his precious rings.

Wouldn’t it work the same way for Marth as it did for Hardin?

Interesting. Can Marth use multiple spheres at once, and does he have to do anything to equip them at the start of a battle?

Prove it.
Yes, Marth can carry as many as four different spheres at once (http://fireemblemwiki.org/Inventory). Spheres and other items like that (Iron Rune and Delphi Shield) take effect by simply sitting in one’s inventory.

Prove that Robotnik’s Badniks aren’t made of tin.

the move can circle around enemies.
  • It's not depicted to be a specific type of attack, so we use the closest match so we at least have something to work with.
Epic Facepalm. So Sonic and Shadow have a limited turning radius?

  • What do you not understand about “damages ALL enemies”!?


@Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon Nerdicon
How are we going to handle stealing the equipment of other combatants?

  1. Characters can steal equipment from each other all wily-nily.
  2. Characters can steal equipment from each other except from characters that have feats for holding onto their items (Link’s grip with the Hook Shot (but not money, arrows or bombs since thieves and rats can swipe those) and the Fire Emblem characters equipped weapons (and unequipped weapons and items too if the would be thief is too slow or weak).
  3. Characters can only steal equipment if they have shown that aptitude in canon (Mewtwo’s trick and Toon Link’s grappling hook).
  4. You can steal from helpless combatants (sleeping, paralyzed, dazed, etc).
  5. No stealing allowed.

I support a combo of 2, 3, and 4 AKA stealing is only possible if one has thief type abilities and will fail against certain characters, but the possessions of helpless combatants are up for grabs (you don’t need to be an expert thief to swipe those.

We also need to come up with a solution for when lore, cutscenes and gameplay clash for the sake of Munomario777 and Kirby Dragons.
 
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Munomario777

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  • Can’t say. We would have to account for factors like the scale of the battlefield (using an indoor setting would give the best results due to it’s smaller scale), the fact that combatants won’t be charging at each other (so no using Olympic sprinting records) but will be going at a marching pace to avoid exhaustion (this is before accounting for bards and dancers giving a unit a chance to move and attack twice in one player phase), and the fact that a unit can fight back against and even kill multiple enemies on the enemy phase such as in this example (https://youtu.be/Vj6BQKHjW9I?t=920 Pent kills an archer at 15:25-15:37, a Mage at 15:55-16:06, another archer at 16:15-16:25, and a knight at 16:44-16:54. All four kills occur in turn 1 and it could have easily been six kills if the Monk didn‘t attack Lucius or the Mage strike at Florina.).
  • Under most circumstances they fly close to the ground so they can land melee blows on their enemies but they are capable of flying high in the sky as well. Examples include map and combat scenes https://youtu.be/T-Tdl2xh9_w?list=PLDD430D2E5337F3F1&t=74 at 1:14-1:36 and Cutscenes https://youtu.be/tquKa4_xCQA?t=81 at 1:22-1:30 and 1:42-1:53 (I love how a mess of Dracoknights go flying by and then a trio of Falconknights follow up the rear).
It’s an excellent plan against anyone who has troublesome equipment and who can’t bring their opponent to battle (the fact that the Falchion is a melee weapon and the Geosphere is good for only 3 uses is why Marth is vulnerable to this tactic).
  • So, how often does the Lifesphere tend to heal Marth?
  • I see. And the Geosphere can damage them at these heights?
Right.
Speed in Pokemon determines who moves 1st while speed in Fire Emblem determines Attack Speed (a high enough disparity between combatants lets the faster one strike twice) and is also the primary stat for evasion (luck being the secondary stat), making it arguably the most important stat in the series. I don’t know what the most important stat is in Pokemon. This is why you can’t compare the two.
Aside from the differences in meaning, we should also take into account the differences in value. For example, a Pokemon attack stat might have more or less damage increase than a Fire Emblem stay.
When did Sonic go at light speed, and how is he going to avoid hurting himself?
He goes at light speed during the Light Speed Dash/Attack, and hie maneuverability show KD keep him out of trouble (along with Super Sonic and all).
I don’t recall Kirby leveling up in a main game and surviving the explosion would be considered a case of Plot Armor.
Mhm.
I doubt the mind corrupting effects will hamper Marth, they may even make him even more aggressive in this case.
It would prevent him from functioning. I'm curious how this works in-game, by the way.
Sonic isn’t a thief last time I checked and even if he were equipped weapons can’t be stolen anyway (It‘s a game mechanic in the series).
Sonic's speed and strength would allow him to snatch things from most characters with ease. If that is a game mechanic, it should be ignored here.
Don’t you mean the Flash, considering he gets OHKOed by everything without his precious rings.
I think Super Sonic would be a more apt Superman comparison, albeit not quite as powerful/durable.
Yes, Marth can carry as many as four different spheres at once (http://fireemblemwiki.org/Inventory). Spheres and other items like that (Iron Rune and Delphi Shield) take effect by simply sitting in one’s inventory.
I see.
Prove that Robotnik’s Badniks aren’t made of tin.
Prove that they are. You're committing an argument from ignorance.
Epic Facepalm. So Sonic and Shadow have a limited turning radius?
Apparently, but this could easily be worked around.
  • What do you not understand about “damages ALL enemies”!?
I wasn't aware that that included enemies far above the ground, geez.
@Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon Nerdicon
How are we going to handle stealing the equipment of other combatants?

  1. Characters can steal equipment from each other all wily-nily.
  2. Characters can steal equipment from each other except from characters that have feats for holding onto their items (Link’s grip with the Hook Shot (but not money, arrows or bombs since thieves and rats can swipe those) and the Fire Emblem characters equipped weapons (and unequipped weapons and items too if the would be thief is too slow or weak).
  3. Characters can only steal equipment if they have shown that aptitude in canon (Mewtwo’s trick and Toon Link’s grappling hook).
  4. You can steal from helpless combatants (sleeping, paralyzed, dazed, etc).
  5. No stealing allowed.

I support a combo of 2, 3, and 4 AKA stealing is only possible if one has thief type abilities and will fail against certain characters, but the possessions of helpless combatants are up for grabs (you don’t need to be an expert thief to swipe those.
Characters can steal from others if their physical strength, as well as speed and the like in some cases, show that they could, and if the other character hasn't shown sufficient strength feats to resist that character stealing from them. They don't need to have actually stolen something/resisted being stolen from if other feats etc show that they could.
We also need to come up with a solution for when lore, cutscenes and gameplay clash for the sake of Munomario777 and Kirby Dragons.
Didn't we agree a while back that lore > gameplay, and gameplay includes cutscenes?
 

Crystanium

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@Dryn If you want to see more of what Fire Emblem magic users are capable of then watch this at https://youtu.be/SXb5moPCWYY Fire magic at 0:00-0:47, Thunder at 1:36-2:10, Wind at 3:05-3:37, Light at 4:34-5:40, and Dark at 6:31-7:06. A Critical and Mastery Skill collection can also be found here at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLoNkLC5FIU . The dark magics Ereshkigal from FE7 and Naglfar from FE8 are pretty impressive as well.
Those attacks look pretty awesome. The wind kinds make me think of sonic wind, except when the tornado is used. "Rexcalibur" looks pretty devastating. Same with "Shine" and "Valaura".

@Dryn If you like crunching numbers so much why not give one of the Fire Emblem games a spin? Surely you will enjoy playing with probability and Murphy’s law.
Unfortunately, I am not good with probability.

@Dryn, @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Nerdicon Nerdicon
How are we going to handle stealing the equipment of other combatants?
I don't think stealing should be allowed unless the character is known for stealing.

We also need to come up with a solution for when lore, cutscenes and gameplay clash for the sake of Munomario777 and Kirby Dragons.
For the most part, I treat cut-scenes, scripted events, quick-time events, textual evidence (lore), and game play all the same. If there's a contradiction, it's going to require examining the evidence and coming up with a consensus.
 
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