Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Crystanium]

How does this relate to the Blue Tornado? Do you mean that 36.91 mph is required to make a tornado capable of lifting his own weight?

It relates to the blue tornado's ability to lift Sonic. An EF0 has a wind speed of 40 mi/h, so . . .

Or video game physics being different from our own. I don't see how infinite energy would destroy everything in sight if harnessed properly.

The third option would fall under "video game physics being different from our own". If you can defend your second sentence, you're more than welcome to.

This would be rather effective against Samus, then.

A rapier is effective against armored soldiers like knights because of the myth that it was effective against those wearing plate armor. The reality is it wouldn't work, so while rapiers would be effective against armored soldiers in FE, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the same in Metroid.

There are spikes in the Metroidverse that can harm Samus, so maybe it would harm Samus. I should go back to do the calculation, but the last time I calculated Samus' resistance against sharp objects, anything less than 12 GPa won't cut it.

I know there's a number of rapiers and hammers in FE, so maybe there will be something else added to these that would be able to cause damage to Samus, but Samus has a very high defense, so the damage output will be greatly reduced. I'm not bothering with the armorslayer because it doesn't share a name with the real world. Samus should be able to avoid these, though.

 

[Munomario777]

It relates to the blue tornado's ability to lift Sonic. An EF0 has a wind speed of 40 mi/h, so . . .

Ah, okay.

The third option would fall under "video game physics being different from our own". If you can defend your second sentence, you're more than welcome to.

I was referring to how moving at light speed likely doesn't require being massless or possessing infinite energy in games.

Infinite energy shouldn't destroy the planet or anything if it's controlled properly, unless I'm missing something here.

 

[Crystanium]

I was referring to how moving at light speed likely doesn't require being massless or possessing infinite energy in games.

Infinite energy shouldn't destroy the planet or anything if it's controlled properly, unless I'm missing something here.

Infinite energy requires infinite mass. The mass of the Universe ranges anywhere from 10^53 kg. to 10^60 kg. If it's in a game, then the laws of physics may not apply, but then we cannot say "light speed" means "299,792,458 m/s". Or, Sonic is massless and becomes mass, thus performing his homing attack.

 

[Munomario777]

Infinite energy requires infinite mass. The mass of the Universe ranges anywhere from 10^53 kg. to 10^60 kg. If it's in a game, then the laws of physics may not apply, but then we cannot say "light speed" means "299,792,458 m/s". Or, Sonic is massless and becomes mass, thus performing his homing attack.

Ah, I see. Another option would be to work at a speed slightly lower than light speed (99% of c for instance) to fit within the constraints of physics and all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Mario's power up's are too situational for him to count on. He can jump or ground pound his opponents, but this wouldn't affect most of them, as these attacks seem to affect mostly squishy characters. He can punch and kick, but that's a pathetic means of attack compared to blasters, and even swords.
Luigi is arguably more powerful than Mario. He runs faster, and jumps higher, but he doesn't have the best traction. But everything else is the same.
Kirby's power is also situational. He can't eat everything, and if he can't eat an opponent, he literally has to wait for the opponent to give him ammo if he has no power up already.
Yoshi combines Mario and Kirby's power. Very situational.
Donkey Kong has no power ups, or fancy weapons. He is useless against characters like Samus and Fox.
All Captain Falcon can do is drive over opponents....
Thunderbolt's Japanese name is 100,000 Volts. So if that is any indication of how high voltage Pikachu can send out, he can one shot pretty much everyone.
Jigglypuff has Pokémon physics, so 100,000 volts isn't going to shut down her system like it would for most other characters. On top of this, she can put anything to sleep just by singing. However, Sing usally misses, and most of her attacks are physical. She can harm opponents with her voice, so that helps.
Knows his way around a spear, but sadly, Fox doesn't own one. However, he does carry a blaster around, so that helps.
Swords are cool, but blasters are better weapons, and Link has to put up his shield to take out any other weapons in his arsenal.
Ness is the most powerful, but his reflexes aren't the best considering he is a kid. Samus, and Fox could outmaneuver him easily
Samus has armor and weaponry, a deadly combination. However, metal conducts electricity, and she is human, so she is very susceptible to Pikachu's electric attacks, which could kill her in one hit.

So with this logic, Pikachu is Super Smash Bros.'s (for the N64) strongest character. If I missed any major points please tell me.

 

[Munomario777]

Mario's power up's are too situational for him to count on. He can jump or ground pound his opponents, but this wouldn't affect most of them, as these attacks seem to affect mostly squishy characters. He can punch and kick, but that's a pathetic means of attack compared to blasters, and even swords.
Luigi is arguably more powerful than Mario. He runs faster, and jumps higher, but he doesn't have the best traction. But everything else is the same.
Kirby's power is also situational. He can't eat everything, and if he can't eat an opponent, he literally has to wait for the opponent to give him ammo if he has no power up already.
Yoshi combines Mario and Kirby's power. Very situational.
Donkey Kong has no power ups, or fancy weapons. He is useless against characters like Samus and Fox.
All Captain Falcon can do is drive over opponents....
Thunderbolt's Japanese name is 100,000 Volts. So if that is any indication of how high voltage Pikachu can send out, he can one shot pretty much everyone.
Jigglypuff has Pokémon physics, so 100,000 volts isn't going to shut down her system like it would for most other characters. On top of this, she can put anything to sleep just by singing. However, Sing usally misses, and most of her attacks are physical. She can harm opponents with her voice, so that helps.
Knows his way around a spear, but sadly, Fox doesn't own one. However, he does carry a blaster around, so that helps.
Swords are cool, but blasters are better weapons, and Link has to put up his shield to take out any other weapons in his arsenal.
Ness is the most powerful, but his reflexes aren't the best considering he is a kid. Samus, and Fox could outmaneuver him easily
Samus has armor and weaponry, a deadly combination. However, metal conducts electricity, and she is human, so she is very susceptible to Pikachu's electric attacks, which could kill her in one hit.

So with this logic, Pikachu is Super Smash Bros.'s (for the N64) strongest character. If I missed any major points please tell me.

I dunno, flight, a projectile, invincibility, growing giant and crushing everything in your path, and the like seem rather versatile.
He also has the Poltergust vacuum but lacks F.L.U.D.D. and the added protection of Mario's Super Suit.
Kirby can use most of his Copy Abikities whenever he wants via Copy Essence Deluxes, making him rather powerful.
He lacks Mario's power-ups, but has some of his own like the Dash Pepper and is an expert with his tongue. Also, he can pretty much fly.
He can punch the moon out of orbit though. If he manages to hit you, it's gonna hurt.
...with a hovercar that can go well beyond Mach 1.
Names don't mean much; we should rely on other means to determine the power of these shocks.
Not anything special, but I don't see how she would be able to put up with 100,000 volts like you say.
Fox also has an Arwing in this fight.
Link has the Magic Armor combined with Chateau Romani, basically making him invincible for three days. If a fighter can outlast that, then they have a shot.
Yeah, other characters should be able to defeat him.
@Dryn is the resident Samus expert here, so you can look at his posts for detail, but in summary, Samus's strengths come from her durable armor, weapons like the Power Bomb and Hyper Beam, and agility with the Speed Booster, Shinespark, and the like (among other things). I'm not sure if she's vulnerable to electricity.

Also, welcome to the thread! I do like this idea of taking individual Smash games and comparing just the characters introduced in that game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I dunno, flight, a projectile, invincibility, growing giant and crushing everything in your path, and the like seem rather versatile.
He also has the Poltergust vacuum but lacks F.L.U.D.D. and the added protection of Mario's Super Suit.
Kirby can use most of his Copy Abikities whenever he wants via Copy Essence Deluxes, making him rather powerful.
He lacks Mario's power-ups, but has some of his own like the Dash Pepper and is an expert with his tongue. Also, he can pretty much fly.
He can punch the moon out of orbit though. If he manages to hit you, it's gonna hurt.
...with a hovercar that can go well beyond Mach 1.
Names don't mean much; we should rely on other means to determine the power of these shocks.
Not anything special, but I don't see how she would be able to put up with 100,000 volts like you say.
Fox also has an Arwing in this fight.
Link has the Magic Armor combined with Chateau Romani, basically making him invincible for three days. If a fighter can outlast that, then they have a shot.
Yeah, other characters should be able to defeat him.
@Dryn is the resident Samus expert here, so you can look at his posts for detail, but in summary, Samus's strengths come from her durable armor, weapons like the Power Bomb and Hyper Beam, and agility with the Speed Booster, Shinespark, and the like (among other things). I'm not sure if she's vulnerable to electricity.

Also, welcome to the thread! I do like this idea of taking individual Smash games and comparing just the characters introduced in that game.

Thanks! I didn't want to talk about 50+ characters in one post, to I only reviewed the original twelve.
A Wing Caps give you the temporary ability to glide. It's not suitable for battle. Red Stars are a much better choice, but It's not everyday you find a Red Luma, so that can pretty much be disregarded. Mega Mushrooms are more rare than Starmen or Rainbow Stars, so chances are he won't be able to find one. The Starman it the only game breaking thing here, as Mario can carry these around. Although F.L.U.D.D. does put him on par with Luigi.
The Poltergust 3000 only affects ghosts, so it's useless here.
Lollipops don't appear very often, so forget about those, but if he did have a copy ability going in, he could have invincibility whenever he wants depending on what it is.
Yoshi's Power ups are useless in combat. The only one remotely helpful is the Dash Pepper, and it doesn't work as an attack, so Yoshi is still low in power.
Assuming they don't kite him to death. I know he is fast, but he would also be easy to trick.
It has to be repaired (Or recharged, I'm not sure which one) frequently though. And Samus on contact with an Invincible Mario, this would destroy it, and Captain Falcon inside.
It says Pikachu can create lightning storms in groups, so I guess you could calculate how high voltage Pikachu is, but I'm not that smart, but I believe Thunder literally strikes the target with lightning (Bulbapedia isn't working, so I cant double check.), which can be fatal to any character with realistic physics like Samus.
Pokémon can handle other Pokémon's attacks far longer than people can. So Jigglypuff can take more damage from Pikachu, but this sadly doesn't matter, because she has to get close, and that isn't easy to do against some characters.
Samus and Pikachu could shoot it down though. The Landmaster wouldn't be much help to him in most cases either.
The Magic Armor you are thinking of belongs to another incarnation of Link: Toon Link. The Magic Armor Link has uses money instead of magic, and Link can't have endless rupees.
Samus is a top contender, and I think she is only rivaled by Pikachu (One shoted by lightning or not), and Captain Falcon (Who has issues if he manages to miss.).

If there was a long and drawn out battle between Pikachu and Samus, I'd bet Samus would win, so I guess Samus would be the most powerful Super Smash Bros. (N64) character. Pikachu would be a close second. And Fox would be a solid third, because Kirby would be the only character to be able to reach him in his Arwing that isn't Samus and Pikachu.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

A Starman is pretty easy to steal though, as the Star bounces around when freed from his pocket.

I can imagine Link being able to steal it with his Hookshot.

 

[Munomario777]

Thanks! I didn't want to talk about 50+ characters in one post, to I only reviewed the original twelve.
A Wing Caps give you the temporary ability to glide. It's not suitable for battle. Red Stars are a much better choice, but It's not everyday you find a Red Luma, so that can pretty much be disregarded. Mega Mushrooms are more rare than Starmen or Rainbow Stars, so chances are he won't be able to find one. The Starman it the only game breaking thing here, as Mario can carry these around. Although F.L.U.D.D. does put him on par with Luigi.

I was thinking the Cape Feather myself, but those would work too. As for finding the power-ups, characters get to bring one of each consumable, no matter how hard they are to find.

The Poltergust 3000 only affects ghosts, so it's useless here.

Mhm.

Lollipops don't appear very often, so forget about those, but if he did have a copy ability going in, he could have invincibility whenever he wants depending on what it is.

See above. Also, Kirby can switch abilities on the fly, so no need to worry about which one he starts with.

Yoshi's Power ups are useless in combat. The only one remotely helpful is the Dash Pepper, and it doesn't work as an attack, so Yoshi is still low in power.
Assuming they don't kite him to death. I know he is fast, but he would also be easy to trick.

Mhm.

It has to be repaired (Or recharged, I'm not sure which one) frequently though. And Samus on contact with an Invincible Mario, this would destroy it, and Captain Falcon inside.

He could probably ram into someone before running out of energy.

It says Pikachu can create lightning storms in groups, so I guess you could calculate how high voltage Pikachu is, but I'm not that smart, but I believe Thunder literally strikes the target with lightning (Bulbapedia isn't working, so I cant double check.), which can be fatal to any character with realistic physics like Samus.

I see.

Pokémon can handle other Pokémon's attacks far longer than people can. So Jigglypuff can take more damage from Pikachu, but this sadly doesn't matter, because she has to get close, and that isn't easy to do against some characters.

I don't think it's a matter of Pokemon being resistant to attacks from other Pokemon; I recall humans surviving electrocution from a Pikachu once in the anime.

Samus and Pikachu could shoot it down though. The Landmaster wouldn't be much help to him in most cases either.

I'd imagine a giant space tank would be helpful in combat.

The Magic Armor you are thinking of belongs to another incarnation of Link: Toon Link. The Magic Armor Link has uses money instead of magic, and Link can't have endless rupees.

We're using a composite Link, or one that uses attributes from all incarnations.

Also, SSB64 Link is based on Ocarina of Time, and there's no magic armor in that game.

Samus is a top contender, and I think she is only rivaled by Pikachu (One shoted by lightning or not), and Captain Falcon (Who has issues if he manages to miss.).

I don't think she'd lose to Pikachu, with her durability and speed preventing her defeat.

If there was a long and drawn out battle between Pikachu and Samus, I'd bet Samus would win, so I guess Samus would be the most powerful Super Smash Bros. (N64) character. Pikachu would be a close second. And Fox would be a solid third, because Kirby would be the only character to be able to reach him in his Arwing that isn't Samus and Pikachu.

I'd say Samus, then Mario, then Kirby.

A Starman is pretty easy to steal though, as the Star bounces around when freed from his pocket.

I can imagine Link being able to steal it with his Hookshot.

In games like New Super Mario Bros. Wii, they're applied instantaneously.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I was thinking the Cape Feather myself, but those would work too. As for finding the power-ups, characters get to bring one of each consumable, no matter how hard they are to find.

Mhm.

See above. Also, Kirby can switch abilities on the fly, so no need to worry about which one he starts with.

Mhm.

He could probably ram into someone before running out of energy.

I see.

I don't think it's a matter of Pokemon being resistant to attacks from other Pokemon; I recall humans surviving electrocution from a Pikachu once in the anime.

I'd imagine a giant space tank would be helpful in combat.

We're using a composite Link, or one that uses attributes from all incarnations.

Also, SSB64 Link is based on Ocarina of Time, and there's no magic armor in that game.

I don't think she'd lose to Pikachu, with her durability and speed preventing her defeat.

I'd say Samus, then Mario, then Kirby.

In games like New Super Mario Bros. Wii, they're applied instantaneously.

Yeah, I was thinking NSMB, but on the NSMBWii map they're applied instantly, true.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I was thinking the Cape Feather myself, but those would work too. As for finding the power-ups, characters get to bring one of each consumable, no matter how hard they are to find.

Mhm.

See above. Also, Kirby can switch abilities on the fly, so no need to worry about which one he starts with.

Mhm.

He could probably ram into someone before running out of energy.

I see.

I don't think it's a matter of Pokemon being resistant to attacks from other Pokemon; I recall humans surviving electrocution from a Pikachu once in the anime.

I'd imagine a giant space tank would be helpful in combat.

We're using a composite Link, or one that uses attributes from all incarnations.

Also, SSB64 Link is based on Ocarina of Time, and there's no magic armor in that game.

I don't think she'd lose to Pikachu, with her durability and speed preventing her defeat.

I'd say Samus, then Mario, then Kirby.

In games like New Super Mario Bros. Wii, they're applied instantaneously.

Hmmmmmmm........ I'd say:
1st: Kirby-He is able to become invincible at will, so he could just wait out the day that Link has his Magic Armor in effect, then use the Monster Flame or something.
2nd: Link-I don't really agree with this collective Link, as I see Link, Toon Link, and Young Link as the same entity, but different characters, so they have different abilities, but with the Magic Armor, and the Cheatou Romani, He could easily wear down the rest of the opponents.
3rd: Mario and Luigi-They have the ability to destroy anything that is not invincible at the time with one touch, and are invincible themselves while this is in effect. Three times. This alone makes them more powerful than many others.
4th: Samus-Samus would win any fair fight.
5th: Pikachu-He is still lethal to the top characters.
6th: Captain Falcon-Limiting him to canon appearances only, he would be lower on this list. But since we are using the Pokémon Anime, then he can destroy things with a single Falcon Punch.
7th: Fox-The artillery helps.
8th: Ness-His psychic abilities only take him so far, but it does give him an advantage against everyone below him.
9th: Donkey Kong-Has immense power, but isn't the smartest.
10th: Jigglypuff-Has better survivability than Yoshi at least.
11th: Yoshi-He dies if he runs out of "Juice", so he is ranked last.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, I see. Another option would be to work at a speed slightly lower than light speed (99% of c for instance) to fit within the constraints of physics and all.

99% the speed of light would not be infinite, but it would still be very destructive, as in causing everything around you to become a nuclear fireball. Same with even 1% the speed of light. I'm not sure what would happen at 0.9% the speed of light, though, but let's say nothing happens. Sure, there will be destruction around the area if there are buildings and vehicles nearby, due to the shock wave, but let's work with 0.9% the speed of light. I don't think Sonic would need to become massless. His speed would be 2,698,132.122 m/s, or three times the escape velocity of the Milky Way. But even traveling at that speed would cause Sonic to leave the battlefield.

Mario's power up's are too situational for him to count on. He can jump or ground pound his opponents, but this wouldn't affect most of them, as these attacks seem to affect mostly squishy characters. He can punch and kick, but that's a pathetic means of attack compared to blasters, and even swords.

Mario also can close the gap using starman and casting fireballs at his opponent.

Luigi is arguably more powerful than Mario. He runs faster, and jumps higher, but he doesn't have the best traction. But everything else is the same.

I agree there's a possibility that Luigi is more powerful than Mario.

Kirby's power is also situational. He can't eat everything, and if he can't eat an opponent, he literally has to wait for the opponent to give him ammo if he has no power up already.

From what I calculated concerning Flowery Woods, with hypernova, Kirby can inhale up to 200 kg., which means most opponents here.

Yoshi combines Mario and Kirby's power. Very situational.

All I know about Yoshi is he can launch eggs, stomp greater than Mario (Yoshi instantly pulverizes koopas in Super Mario World, whereas Mario has to do a spin). Under the right circumstances, he can spit out fireballs.

Donkey Kong has no power ups, or fancy weapons. He is useless against characters like Samus and Fox.

Donkey Kong has banana juice, which would make him invincible for up to 10 hits. Whether or not this can all be drained from a constant stream of an attack is unknown.

All Captain Falcon can do is drive over opponents....[/quote]

He can slam into his opponents with tons of force in the double digit range and is able to do precise hits against other F-Zero vehicles, causing severe damage. I don't think that'll feel pleasant.

Thunderbolt's Japanese name is 100,000 Volts. So if that is any indication of how high voltage Pikachu can send out, he can one shot pretty much everyone.

While that's high, it's not higher than lightning.

Jigglypuff has Pokémon physics, so 100,000 volts isn't going to shut down her system like it would for most other characters. On top of this, she can put anything to sleep just by singing. However, Sing usally misses, and most of her attacks are physical. She can harm opponents with her voice, so that helps.

Jigglypuff is honestly no threat.

Knows his way around a spear, but sadly, Fox doesn't own one. However, he does carry a blaster around, so that helps.

Fox will likely be flying his arwing, but if most of his games have him traversing on foot, that might change.

Swords are cool, but blasters are better weapons, and Link has to put up his shield to take out any other weapons in his arsenal.

Magic armor should be able to protect Link from the blasters. I've never seen how the beams from the blaster looks in-game, but I have seen the beams from beamos and the ones found in Twilight Princess look most devastating. Of course, these beamos' and the ones found in Ocarina of Time cut through the ground, so if the magic armor protects Link from that, the blaster should be no issue.

Ness is the most powerful, but his reflexes aren't the best considering he is a kid. Samus, and Fox could outmaneuver him easily

No he's not. Ness is only believed to be the most powerful because he defeated a universal threat, but not by any of his actions, only by the prayer of others.

Samus has armor and weaponry, a deadly combination. However, metal conducts electricity, and she is human, so she is very susceptible to Pikachu's electric attacks, which could kill her in one hit.

Samus' armor is metallic, but we don't know what her suit is made of. It's clearly high in conductivity, however, meaning there's less resistance, meaning the electricity will be seeking something else. In the battle against Draygon, if Draygon grabs Samus, she can latch onto electrical conduits with her grapple beam, allowing the electricity to course through her as it continuously shocks Draygon. Samus isn't the one to die from this, however, it's Draygon. If the weapon known as "volt driver" doesn't instantly kill Samus, a weapon that produces a multi-terawatt burst of high voltage, then thunderbolt isn't going to.

A typical lightning bolt will produce a terawatt of electricity in 30 microseconds. Volt driver also comes from a hunter known as Kanden. A disruptive electromagnetic field surrounds him. Samus' analysis suggests the voltage is comparable to that found in lightning storms. What this means is Kanden's weapon is producing at least one billion volts. So nope, Pikachu is not the strongest character. In the N64, that might be the case, but as far as canon goes, it isn't.

 

[Munomario777]

99% the speed of light would not be infinite, but it would still be very destructive, as in causing everything around you to become a nuclear fireball. Same with even 1% the speed of light. I'm not sure what would happen at 0.9% the speed of light, though, but let's say nothing happens. Sure, there will be destruction around the area if there are buildings and vehicles nearby, due to the shock wave, but let's work with 0.9% the speed of light. I don't think Sonic would need to become massless. His speed would be 2,698,132.122 m/s, or three times the escape velocity of the Milky Way. But even traveling at that speed would cause Sonic to leave the battlefield.

Sonic can stop immediately after using the Light Speed Attack, so leaving the battlefield should be no issue. I also don't see how everything becoming a "nuclear fireball" would be bad for Sonic; everything around him would perish.

By the way, all this talk about game physics has gotten me thinking; what physics etc system should the battlefield operate on? There are a few options:

1. 100% real-world physics
2. Characters operate on their own games' physics systems, and anything that isn't specified by the physics system etc uses real-world physics
3. Some "middle ground" between the physics systems of the two characters fighting
4. Some "middle ground" between all universes in Smash

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sonic can stop immediately after using the Light Speed Attack, so leaving the battlefield should be no issue. I also don't see how everything becoming a "nuclear fireball" would be bad for Sonic; everything around him would perish.

By the way, all this talk about game physics has gotten me thinking; what physics etc system should the battlefield operate on? There are a few options:

1. 100% real-world physics
2. Characters operate on their own games' physics systems, and anything that isn't specified by the physics system etc uses real-world physics
3. Some "middle ground" between the physics systems of the two characters fighting
4. Some "middle ground" between all universes in Smash

2. Some characters abilities are in their physics.

 

[Munomario777]

2. Some characters abilities are in their physics.

Yeah, that's my stance too.

 

[Crystanium]

Sonic can stop immediately after using the Light Speed Attack, so leaving the battlefield should be no issue.

If that's upon impact, all right. Anyway, from watching two different videos for light speed attack, it looks to me like Sonic needs to charge for at least 2 seconds, and after that, it doesn't even look like he can run at his speed that you'll see him running at.

I also don't see how everything becoming a "nuclear fireball" would be bad for Sonic; everything around him would perish.

Including Sonic himself, since he's never demonstrated the ability to withstand those temperatures.

By the way, all this talk about game physics has gotten me thinking; what physics etc system should the battlefield operate on? There are a few options:

1. 100% real-world physics
2. Characters operate on their own games' physics systems, and anything that isn't specified by the physics system etc uses real-world physics
3. Some "middle ground" between the physics systems of the two characters fighting
4. Some "middle ground" between all universes in Smash

There should be a balance between the two, but it's when it's argued that, "We cannot apply physics to video game physics" that I find any kind of physics used to support something in the video game to no longer apply as well. This is why lasers and black holes are an issue. One cannot say, "This laser travels at light speed" and then ignore the our physics from which that assertion is made.

 

[Munomario777]

If that's upon impact, all right. Anyway, from watching two different videos for light speed attack, it looks to me like Sonic needs to charge for at least 2 seconds, and after that, it doesn't even look like he can run at his speed that you'll see him running at.

Yes, it's on impact. There's an upgrade that reduces the charge time. As for the running speed, the boost, Chaos Control, etc should let him close the gap.

Including Sonic himself, since he's never demonstrated the ability to withstand those temperatures.

How hot would the blast be? Super Sonic can stand on top of lava, and the Flame Shield negates heat-based attacks.

There should be a balance between the two, but it's when it's argued that, "We cannot apply physics to video game physics" that I find any kind of physics used to support something in the video game to no longer apply as well. This is why lasers and black holes are an issue. One cannot say, "This laser travels at light speed" and then ignore the our physics from which that assertion is made.

Right. That's why I say that we use game physics for matters outlined in the games (i.e. how a Mario/Kirby black hole works), but for things that are not defined (i.e. the speed of light), we can use real-world physics to fill in the gaps. I disagree with the laser-going-at-the-speed-of-light example, since objects move at the speed shown and all, but I agree with the gist of the statement.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, it's on impact. There's an upgrade that reduces the charge time. As for the running speed, the boost, Chaos Control, etc should let him close the gap.

What's the name of the upgrade? As for boost, can that be performed, or will it trigger LSA?

How hot would the blast be? Super Sonic can stand on top of lava, and the Flame Shield negates heat-based attacks.

Hotter than lava.

Right. That's why I say that we use game physics for matters outlined in the games (i.e. how a Mario/Kirby black hole works), but for things that are not defined (i.e. the speed of light), we can use real-world physics to fill in the gaps. I disagree with the laser-going-at-the-speed-of-light example, since objects move at the speed shown and all, but I agree with the gist of the statement.

You're not the only one who has said it before to me, though. "Speed of light" is defined. You should be agreeing with my laser example, since most fiction doesn't portray lasers properly. It's always assumed that lasers can cut through anything, even though that's not true.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If there was a long and drawn out battle between Pikachu and Samus, I'd bet Samus would win, so I guess Samus would be the most powerful Super Smash Bros. (N64) character. Pikachu would be a close second. And Fox would be a solid third, because Kirby would be the only character to be able to reach him in his Arwing that isn't Samus and Pikachu.

I say it's .

And because it caused severe problems. Quote from Wikipedia, "The police, courts and prisons were overwhelmed with new cases; organized crime increased in power, and corruption extended among law enforcement officials. The amendment was repealed in 1933 by ratification of the Twenty-first Amendment, the only instance in United States history that a constitutional amendment was repealed in its entirety."

This rule causes a problem, too. It's rather inaccurate. The Starman, Super Sonic, etc. have only been shown blocking damage. If they haven't been seen blocking anything else, we can never say that they block things like Trick or whatever. In addition, we have Nerdicon's analysis that serves as a problem for the rule.

And how do we know that he's capable of following through with it?

There would be no point to the movie if he couldn't.

The crusher walls are treated as immovable objects, as in, they can't be stopped prematurely. Super Sonic's invincible status is overruled by the wall's immovable status, so Super Sonic dies. On the other hand, regular attacks are negated by Super Sonic.

I imagine Sonic could've just smashed through the wall.

Also, I'm not sure how crusher walls correlate to laser beams.

Crusher walls are nowhere near the power in that beam.

If users are not tagged, they might not see the proposal. If they don't see the proposal, they won't vote. If they don't vote, there are less votes to record, and the results are skewed due to a limited voter pool.

And the users were tagged beforehand.

Prove it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/whos-canonically-the-strongest-character-in-smash.347421/page-122
Near the end of the page, we take the vote.

I'm curious on what everyone's stance is at this point in time.

Against

• Me
• @ShadowLBlue
• @BaganSmashBros
• @Nerdicon

For

• You
• @Dryn
• @Reckless Godwin 2.0

And the weakness of Marx is that he launches off when defeated.

Practically everything launches off when it's defeated. That isn't a weakness.

Care to compare it?

See 4:55. He's able to fly just in time to dodge that quick laser, and rises pretty fast as well.

Right, just like the limit of Meta Knight only being able to slash everything on the screen and then disappear coming from the Copy Ability.

That doesn't come from the Copy Ability. Slashing is what MK does, not the ability. Meta Knight has never been shown just suddenly disappearing like that.

Ah. Note that the Sonic Boost can destroy these shields.

This can be surpassed by Hypernova or Baton, and also flying away.

Are they all pink, or are they simply differently colored members of the Kirby species?

They are actually Kirby, but with different colors. Clones, basically.

How so? If Sonic can tear through robots while barely moving at all, I highly doubt that Kirby could survive a Mach 1+ attack.

I've shown Kirby's durability.

How so?

That can't happen without the apple, but it can happen without you. It just needs another force.

Let me provide another view of this. Kirby never used the explosion, so it isn't his attack.

I'll take that as a no.

The feats I've provided and explanation I've given say yes.

Do you have footage of this that proves its speed?

See 2:04.

Presumably.

Kirby could tear the eyelids off.

That seems rather avoidable (or at least hide-in-your-super-durable-shell-able).

Kirby could fly into the shell, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Small Kirby mountain < < < < < tall stacks of rocks.

Those "tall stacks of rocks" have cracks in them, making them very easy to break. Kirby mountains (that aren't actually small) and the Dedede Stone have no such cracks.

Prove that Kirby could pull himself through that space.

He's extremely malleable, he slips through. Malleable enough to become flat.

How much force does that equal exactly?

Logically, it would have the force of an actual black hole.

One could press a button on a computer terminal to launch a rocket. The rocket launch happens pretty soon after one presses the button, and nothing else would have launched it, yet the person who pressed the button didn't provide the force.

A rocket is made to launch; Marx is not.

When is it revealed that the purpose of the galaxy is to give Mario a Power Star, with no hazards etc along the way?

Obviously, if Mario goes there

Ah, okay. That doesn't make much sense, though. PP can change, but the ability of the move doesn't change. Moves with different PP can have the same abilities, and vice-versa.

This would mean that the amount of points to use the power of the move changes.

I'm not talking about the amount of PP. I'm talking about what 1 PP equates to in terms of energy. For instance, 1 PP could equate to a pint of water for a water jet attack, and if the ratio changed, it could equate to two pints per PP.

However, the pints of water don't actually change at all in the move.

Not much, in retrospect.

I see.

Ah. The principle still applies.

Obviously, this wasn't a lie or mistake.

Insects, then.

But not humans. Black holes kill humans, and animals much bigger.

Schwarz is classified as an enemy.

And their black hole, isn't.

Cutscenes are for the purpose of the story as well.

Yeah, and gameplay isn't.

For another perspective, all of these fight would be taking place in cutscenes, rather than gameplay. We have everyone doing things they can't do in gameplay, but in cutscenes.

This doesn't tell us much about what Kirby could withstand.

I've shown what he can withstand.

What counts as a "weak attack" or a "strong attack"? That's too vague to work with.

Weak attacks would be things such as Sir Kibble's cutter, a Waddle Doo's beam, or a Squeaker's bomb. Strong attacks would be things such as Marx Soul's black hole.

So has Kirby survived a light speed attack before?

He has survived much worse than that.

No, but he can move before charging and out of Kirby's range.

Then Kirby boards the Warp Star to chase after him, and fires the beam when he stops and begins to charge. Or all in all, avoid the Sonic Boost/Spin Dash/Light Speed Attack.

They're from people, and people are prone to error.

Seems like too big of an error to actually make.

And he likely suffered a headache, if not a concussion.

Yet, he didn't.

And he was stranded.

He could leave any time via the Hocotate Ship.

Except he can't, because he has to stay there and pay off the debt.

He could always use the Pikmin to beat up the President, if it becomes too stressful of a problem that he makes mistakes.

And then it sets back in.

Not before Olimar makes the observation.

I also notice you're using tons of speculation to attempt and disprove something said in the games.

Could you provide a specific example, please? Sonic teleported when he was in the capsule, falling from the ARK. He had an Emerald on him, and it was made clear that he was preparing to initiate Chaos Control. It was also directly stated that he did so after the fact, and this is backed up by other instances of Sonic using Chaos Control throughout the series such as Sonic 2006.

Similarly, Olimar tested the slicer soon after collecting it. He had the slicer and his journal on him, and it was made clear that he was preparing to initiate a test. It was also directly stated that he did so after the fact, and this is backed up by Olimar being quite observative in the past (he discovered a planet and a species).

Unless it's a galaxy-sized explosion.

That already happened.

And Rosalina destroys that one.

And Kirby follows up by flying through Rosalina a second time, thus killing her due to her inability to take more than two hits.

Do you mean flying into Rosalina using Ghost, or...?

Yes, Possess damages characters by flying through them.

As proven by?

Kirby has squishy, bouncy skin.

Since it damages flying troops in-game, it's not a ground- or near-ground-only attack.

Ah.

Sonic's high running speed.

Okay.

How quick is this rolling? I doubt it could dodge Sonic Wind.

The rolling of an average human. It would take a bit shorter time than Sonic Wind, so Marth could dodge it.

Super Sonic.

What about him?

Elixir and Vulnerary have limited use, and Sol only heals if damage is dealt to an enemy. Seeing as how Marth won't be damaging Super Sonic anytime soon, this won't prove effective.

The Geosphere was created by a powerful being, so it would most likely be able to damage Super Sonic.

Yes.

Then the system applies to Kirby.

A rapier is effective against armored soldiers like knights because of the myth that it was effective against those wearing plate armor. The reality is it wouldn't work, so while rapiers would be effective against armored soldiers in FE, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the same in Metroid.

There are spikes in the Metroidverse that can harm Samus, so maybe it would harm Samus. I should go back to do the calculation, but the last time I calculated Samus' resistance against sharp objects, anything less than 12 GPa won't cut it.

I know there's a number of rapiers and hammers in FE, so maybe there will be something else added to these that would be able to cause damage to Samus, but Samus has a very high defense, so the damage output will be greatly reduced. I'm not bothering with the armorslayer because it doesn't share a name with the real world. Samus should be able to avoid these, though.

Yeah, Samus probably would win in the long run.

I think the only FE character she wouldn't be able to beat is Marth. She couldn't dodge the Geosphere, nor could she hurt Marth with the Darksphere.

 

[Munomario777]

What's the name of the upgrade? As for boost, can that be performed, or will it trigger LSA?

It's called the Crystal Ring. It halves the charge time, and appears in the form of a glowing blue bracelet. We don't know if the Boost can be performed while holding the LSA charge, as they didn't appear in the same game. He can perform another Spin Dash, though.

Hotter than lava.

I see. So Super Sonic loses some Rings, if not all of them.

You're not the only one who has said it before to me, though. "Speed of light" is defined.

I was referring to the speed at which light travels, not moves referring to the speed of light.

You should be agreeing with my laser example, since most fiction doesn't portray lasers properly. It's always assumed that lasers can cut through anything, even though that's not true.

We have a rule that deals with the speeds at which objects travel, which I agree with, so I disagree about what you said about the speed of lasers.

This rule causes a problem, too. It's rather inaccurate. The Starman, Super Sonic, etc. have only been shown blocking damage. If they haven't been seen blocking anything else, we can never say that they block things like Trick or whatever. In addition, we have Nerdicon's analysis that serves as a problem for the rule.

You say that it's inaccurate, yet you don't specify were it contradicts the games.

There would be no point to the movie if he couldn't.

This isn't proof.

I imagine Sonic could've just smashed through the wall.

Me too, but he can't because it's not coded as a destructible object.

Crusher walls are nowhere near the power in that beam.

Prove that the unstoppable wall has less force than a laser beam.

And the users were tagged beforehand.

http://smashboards.com/threads/whos-canonically-the-strongest-character-in-smash.347421/page-122
Near the end of the page, we take the vote.

I see. If everyone else on the thread wishes to take a revote, then whatever. You know what side I'm on.

Practically everything launches off when it's defeated. That isn't a weakness.

It is a weakness; just a rather common one.

See 4:55. He's able to fly just in time to dodge that quick laser, and rises pretty fast as well.

Dodging things doesn't directly correlate to speed, and he's still slower than MK.

That doesn't come from the Copy Ability. Slashing is what MK does, not the ability. Meta Knight has never been shown just suddenly disappearing like that.

This isn't Meta Knight; it's a copy of Meta Knight. For all we know, it might not even have sentience.

This can be surpassed by Hypernova or Baton, and also flying away.

Hypernova and Baton are countered by Sonic's dodging abilities, and Kirby's flying isn't nearly fast enough.

They are actually Kirby, but with different colors. Clones, basically.

Actually, they're members of a species.

I've shown Kirby's durability.

Direct me to the point when Kirby survived a supersonic buzzsaw attack.

That can't happen without the apple, but it can happen without you. It just needs another force.

Gravity is the main force at work here, pulling the apple downwards. My hand is the force that lets gravity do its job. Marx : Kirby : : gravity : my hand.

Let me provide another view of this. Kirby never used the explosion, so it isn't his attack.

He used it to defeat Sectonia.

The feats I've provided and explanation I've given say yes.

Direct me to the feat when Kirby pulled himself through an impossibly tiny crack.

See 2:04.

That seems like a downwards attack, whereas horizontal movement is needed here.

Kirby could tear the eyelids off.

Kirby flies at the eyes. Bowser closes his eyes. The Warp Star crashes and is destroyed, with Kirby is likely tumbling like he does whenever the Warp Star is destroyed, giving Bowser the opportunity to strike.

Kirby could fly into the shell, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Unless it's spinning.

Those "tall stacks of rocks" have cracks in them, making them very easy to break. Kirby mountains (that aren't actually small) and the Dedede Stone have no such cracks.

Fair enough. How about the stacks upon stacks of Brick Blocks that he can break with no signs of slowing down in the NSMB series?

He's extremely malleable, he slips through. Malleable enough to become flat.

When does he become flat without something crushing him from above?

Logically, it would have the force of an actual black hole.

Except it's not a real black hole.

A rocket is made to launch; Marx is not.

Similarly, a car is not made to explode, yet it can if it catches on fire.

Obviously, if Mario goes there

I'm sorry?

This would mean that the amount of points to use the power of the move changes.

Except it doesn't.

However, the pints of water don't actually change at all in the move.

Prove it. Also, that's just an example; another would be volts of electricity for an electric attack.

Obviously, this wasn't a lie or mistake.

It could simply be describing the enemy as a hole with a black coloration. That description fits more than that of the celestial object.

But not humans. Black holes kill humans, and animals much bigger.

A manhole, then.

And their black hole, isn't.

Right, it's classified as an attack.

Yeah, and gameplay isn't.

What I mean by "story", by the way, is that cutscenes are meant to let the hero get to the goal. Why does Kirby survive Sectonia's blast? Because then he wouldn't succeed. It's plot armor.

For another perspective, all of these fight would be taking place in cutscenes, rather than gameplay. We have everyone doing things they can't do in gameplay, but in cutscenes.

This isn't a game, so it's not gameplay or a cutscene. It's simply an occurrence within canon.

I've shown what he can withstand.

And the cotton ball example did nothing to help with that.

Weak attacks would be things such as Sir Kibble's cutter, a Waddle Doo's beam, or a Squeaker's bomb. Strong attacks would be things such as Marx Soul's black hole.

I see. So most characters shod be able to knock it out with a couple of hits due to their size.

He has survived much worse than that.

So Kirby survived an FTL attack before, or...?

Then Kirby boards the Warp Star to chase after him, and fires the beam when he stops and begins to charge. Or all in all, avoid the Sonic Boost/Spin Dash/Light Speed Attack.

Sonic could go in one direction (say, north), get out of Kirby's view, and then go along the edge of the arena to the other side to confuse Kirby. Kirby didn't see Sonic go south, so he thinks he's on the north edge. By the time Kirby figures this out, Sonic will have charged the attack (which takes about two seconds with the upgrade). The beam would be blocked by Super Sonic anyways. How exactly would Kirby dodge the attacks you listed? The LSA homes in on moving enemies.

Seems like too big of an error to actually make.

The concussion, stress, and everything else I've mentioned could contribute to this.

Yet, he didn't.

Prove it.

He could leave any time via the Hocotate Ship.

As in, Louie was stranded at the beginning of the game if I'm not mistaken.

He could always use the Pikmin to beat up the President, if it becomes too stressful of a problem that he makes mistakes.

Right, because that would totally work out for him. Let's see what this would result in:

• Guilt of being a murderer/beating up his boss
• Wanted by the law for those same reasons
• Unemployed
• Unable to support his family

Plus, I doubt that Olimar would do that in the first place (he's friendly with the President if I'm not mistaken, and that wouldn't in any way help the situation).

Not before Olimar makes the observation.

Prove it.

I also notice you're using tons of speculation to attempt and disprove something said in the games.

No, I'm using events in the games to disprove Olimar's statement.

Similarly, Olimar tested the slicer soon after collecting it. He had the slicer and his journal on him, and it was made clear that he was preparing to initiate a test. It was also directly stated that he did so after the fact, and this is backed up by Olimar being quite observative in the past (he discovered a planet and a species).

Do you have video, quotes, etc to back this up?

That already happened.

And Rosalina sends out more in quick succession to keep the blasts coming.

And Kirby follows up by flying through Rosalina a second time, thus killing her due to her inability to take more than two hits.

Starman, Mega Mushroom, etc. Starman defeats Boos, so it would also at least damage Ghost Kirby, if not serving as an OHKO.

Yes, Possess damages characters by flying through them.

I see.

Kirby has squishy, bouncy skin.

So do Octoombas (the Galaxy enemies that shoot rocks), and yet they still get stunned.

The rolling of an average human. It would take a bit shorter time than Sonic Wind, so Marth could dodge it.

Sonic Wind follows moving enemies.

What about him?

He's protected from the attacks you mentioned.

The Geosphere was created by a powerful being, so it would most likely be able to damage Super Sonic.

Unless the sphere itself has that level of power, we shouldn't take the power from its creators and apply it to the weapon itself.

Then the system applies to Kirby.

Yes it does.

 

[Crystanium]

It's called the Crystal Ring. It halves the charge time, and appears in the form of a glowing blue bracelet.

Well, it looks like in this video, Sonic has that crystal ring, so it looks like it'll take about a two second charge.

We don't know if the Boost can be performed while holding the LSA charge, as they didn't appear in the same game. He can perform another Spin Dash, though.

From the looks of it, the LSA has a similar animation to sonic boost, so it might be that Sonic cannot use this boost during the time, as by doing so would trigger the LSA. The spin dash looks like it'll help, though, and Chaos Control, however that's supposed to function. Is there any time in game play where the teleportation can be seen?

I see. So Super Sonic loses some Rings, if not all of them.

I think he'd lose all of them, and I'm not saying this because I don't want Sonic to use this technique. I'm only saying this because it makes me think of Samus' situation when she is going to drop the theronian bomb on a large, energy shield that covers at least several miles. The temperature, shock, and radiation would be too much.

I was referring to the speed at which light travels, not moves referring to the speed of light.

I can't tell the difference. Will you please clarify?

We have a rule that deals with the speeds at which objects travel, which I agree with, so I disagree about what you said about the speed of lasers.

How? A real laser will travel at 299,792,458 m/s. Most lasers portrayed in video games don't behave as they should, which means we cannot use real data of a laser onto a laser that behaves differently. At best, most lasers in fiction are nothing more than energy beams. Whether or not this means particle beams is unknown, but if a laser is fired at Earth in the way it is in Star Wars from the Death Star, that laser is behaving more like a particle beam, which travels near the speed of light. But, for these beams to not be traveling light speed, they must be denser and require more mass.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, it looks like in this video, Sonic has that crystal ring, so it looks like it'll take about a two second charge.

Yes, that's what I found as well.

From the looks of it, the LSA has a similar animation to sonic boost, so it might be that Sonic cannot use this boost during the time, as by doing so would trigger the LSA.

The Light Speed Attack has Sonic curl up into a ball and essentially perform a faster Homing Attavk, whereas the Boost it basically a faster run with an aura that damages enemies.

The spin dash looks like it'll help, though, and Chaos Control, however that's supposed to function. Is there any time in game play where the teleportation can be seen?

We don't see Sonic use Chaos Control (the camera cuts away right before he performs the technique), but we do see its speed in the Shadow the Hedgehog opening cutscene, where Shadow uses the same technique in rapid succession. I posted it earlier in the thread, but a YouTube search should suffice.

I think he'd lose all of them, and I'm not saying this because I don't want Sonic to use this technique. I'm only saying this because it makes me think of Samus' situation when she is going to drop the theronian bomb on a large, energy shield that covers at least several miles. The temperature, shock, and radiation would be too much.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if he didn't lose at least a thousand Rings. Either way, Sonic would pretty much automatically win any fight if we handled it like this (although I don't think we should).

I can't tell the difference. Will you please clarify?

Sure. The Light Speed Attack is said to move at light speed (what I mean by referring to the speed of light). However, the Sonic games don't state that light moves at 299,792,458 m/s, so this is where real-world physics kick in.

How? A real laser will travel at 299,792,458 m/s. Most lasers portrayed in video games don't behave as they should, which means we cannot use real data of a laser onto a laser that behaves differently. At best, most lasers in fiction are nothing more than energy beams. Whether or not this means particle beams is unknown, but if a laser is fired at Earth in the way it is in Star Wars from the Death Star, that laser is behaving more like a particle beam, which travels near the speed of light. But, for these beams to not be traveling light speed, they must be denser and require more mass.

I'm just saying that there's a rule saying that objects move at the speeds shown in-game unless otherwise stated. Real-life lasers go faster than that, but the ones in-game don't.

 

[Crystanium]

We don't see Sonic use Chaos Control (the camera cuts away right before he performs the technique), but we do see its speed in the Shadow the Hedgehog opening cutscene, where Shadow uses the same technique in rapid succession. I posted it earlier in the thread, but a YouTube search should suffice.

From the looks of it, Samus has dealt with similar teleportation. I attempted to find a consistent teleportation time from the first opponent Shadow hits to the second. I only timed Shadow's teleportation from the time he turns blue to get from point A to point B.

• 0.604 seconds
• 0.576 seconds
• 0.622 seconds
• 0.652 seconds
• 0.582 seconds

To average this out, Shadow's teleportation is 0.607 seconds (rounded to the nearest thousandths). Now it's Samus' turn against the desbrachian.

• 0.145 seconds
• 0.199 seconds
• 0.192 seconds
• 0.132 seconds
• 0.224 seconds

Average this out gives me a total of 0.178 seconds (rounded to the nearest thousandths). The time it takes for a human to blink is between 300 to 400 milliseconds. Since we're using Shadow's feat for Sonic, the teleportation would be easily reacted by any human, unless Sonic had the element of surprise like Shadow had.

Sure. The Light Speed Attack is said to move at light speed (what I mean by referring to the speed of light). However, the Sonic games don't state that light moves at 299,792,458 m/s, so this is where real-world physics kick in.

Why use real-world physics if you're not willing to allow physics at any other given time?

I'm just saying that there's a rule saying that objects move at the speeds shown in-game unless otherwise stated. Real-life lasers go faster than that, but the ones in-game don't.

But they're lasers, so they should travel 299,792,458 m/s, since this is where real-world physics would kick in, as you put it.

 

[Munomario777]

From the looks of it, Samus has dealt with similar teleportation. I attempted to find a consistent teleportation time from the first opponent Shadow hits to the second. I only timed Shadow's teleportation from the time he turns blue to get from point A to point B.

• 0.604 seconds
• 0.576 seconds
• 0.622 seconds
• 0.652 seconds
• 0.582 seconds

To average this out, Shadow's teleportation is 0.607 seconds (rounded to the nearest thousandths). Now it's Samus' turn against the desbrachian.

• 0.145 seconds
• 0.199 seconds
• 0.192 seconds
• 0.132 seconds
• 0.224 seconds

Average this out gives me a total of 0.178 seconds (rounded to the nearest thousandths). The time it takes for a human to blink is between 300 to 400 milliseconds. Since we're using Shadow's feat for Sonic, the teleportation would be easily reacted by any human, unless Sonic had the element of surprise like Shadow had.

I see. Worth noting is that the Metroid enemy is still partially visible while teleporting, as opposed to Chaos Control, which is a matter of disappearing and then reappearing. This would give Samus an indication of where the enemy appears. Sonic could likely take advantage of the element of surprise you mentioned for Shadow.

Why use real-world physics if you're not willing to allow physics at any other given time?

Because when the games don't specify their physics in certain situations, we need real life to help fill in the gaps.

But they're lasers, so they should travel 299,792,458 m/s, since this is where real-world physics would kick in, as you put it.

Gameplay takes precedence over real life.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

You say that it's inaccurate, yet you don't specify were it contradicts the games.

Starman/Super Sonic and Protect have totally different effects.

For evidence from the games, Invincible Mario is still hurt by lava. Protect can stop attacks from Entei, who is hotter than lava.

This isn't proof.

Why not?

Prove that the unstoppable wall has less force than a laser beam.

Unstoppable walls cannot do this.

I see. If everyone else on the thread wishes to take a revote, then whatever. You know what side I'm on.

I don't think that's necessary, but I will tag to see if anyone changed their mind.

@Nerdicon @Dryn @ShadowLBlue @Reckless Godwin 2.0 @BaganSmashBros
Are you guys still on the same side for Muno's invincibility rule (treating all invincibility item/techniques as same unless otherwise stated)?

It is a weakness; just a rather common one.

The definition of weakness is "a quality or feature regarded as a disadvantage or fault". Marx being launched off is never regarded as such, and therefore it isn't a weakness.

Dodging things doesn't directly correlate to speed, and he's still slower than MK.

He's not that much slower. Not slower enough to get a Copy Ability and summon a speed boost for.

This isn't Meta Knight; it's a copy of Meta Knight. For all we know, it might not even have sentience.

The copy hasn't shown any differences from the original Meta Knight.

Hypernova and Baton are countered by Sonic's dodging abilities, and Kirby's flying isn't nearly fast enough.

I think it would be pretty hard to dodge something you're running right into.

Actually, they're members of a species.

Oh. Well, that's not really relevant to Sleep Kirby vs Needle Kirby/Spin Dashing Sonic.

Direct me to the point when Kirby survived a supersonic buzzsaw attack.

Kirby survived an explosion that covered a giant portion of Popstar.

Planetary explosion > supersonic buzzsaw attack.

Therefore, Kirby can survive a supersonic buzzsaw attack.

Gravity is the main force at work here, pulling the apple downwards. My hand is the force that lets gravity do its job. Marx : Kirby : : gravity : my hand.

We were talking about Sectonia.

He used it to defeat Sectonia.

He used the beam to defeat Sectonia.

Direct me to the feat when Kirby pulled himself through an impossibly tiny crack.

I am creating a feat backed up by feats from the anime.

That seems like a downwards attack, whereas horizontal movement is needed here.

It is also a diagonal attack, so he would be dodging the edge of the Clown Car. Even if Bowser could put the Clown Car over Kirby, he'd just throw it away and out of Bowser's reach. Or, it would fall of of Bowser naturally due to gravity, whereas Ninja Kirby would stick to Bowser's skin.

Kirby flies at the eyes. Bowser closes his eyes. The Warp Star crashes and is destroyed, with Kirby is likely tumbling like he does whenever the Warp Star is destroyed, giving Bowser the opportunity to strike.

A) This is Jet Kirby, who doesn't tumble when he falls.
B) If Kirby ever did tumble, he'd just grab onto Bowser.

Unless it's spinning.

As I've mentioned before, Jet Kirby can fly much faster than Bowser can spin, and he can steer perfectly too, so spinning isn't a problem.

Fair enough. How about the stacks upon stacks of Brick Blocks that he can break with no signs of slowing down in the NSMB series?

Brick Blocks aren't made of brick; they're made of bricks. It seems like Mario would be breaking the bonds between the bricks, rather than actual bricks themselves.

When does he become flat without something crushing him from above?

Never. Kirby would be flat when the edge of the Clown Car is crushing him from above, and he'd get under the edge by becoming small and ducking for nigh flatness, and then pushing himself through the crack, becoming completely flat in the process, and finally popping back up.

Except it's not a real black hole.

It is indeed.

Similarly, a car is not made to explode, yet it can if it catches on fire.

That it is also done by weakness exploiting; a skyscraper doesn't explode if it catches on fire.

I'm sorry?

it is to get a Power Star. If a Luma transforms into a galaxy, it is to give Mario a Power Star.

Except it doesn't.

It does. When you use Shadow Ball once, the PP (points to use the powers of Shadow Ball) change from 15 to 14.

Prove it.

Hydro Pump always has the same size when it's used in the games, regardless of how much PP is left. Therefore, same amount of pints.

Also, that's just an example; another would be volts of electricity for an electric attack.

Thunder with 9 PP left does roughly the same amount (sometimes more) of damage as Thunder with 1 PP left. If the volts decreased with the PP, Thunder with 1 PP left would do much less damage than Thunder with 9 PP left.

It could simply be describing the enemy as a hole with a black coloration. That description fits more than that of the celestial object.

A black hole is a hole with a black coloration too. How does that fit better than the celestial object?

A manhole, then.

Manholes don't really kill anyone, they just cause people to fall.

Right, it's classified as an attack.

More specifically, a black hole.

What I mean by "story", by the way, is that cutscenes are meant to let the hero get to the goal.

Cutscenes aren't meant to let the hero get to the goal. That is gameplay. Cutscenes are what happens after the goal.

For example, Mario reaching the flag is the goal. It happens during gameplay.

Similarly, Kirby defeating the boss was the goal. It happened during gameplay.

Why does Kirby survive Sectonia's blast? Because then he wouldn't succeed. It's plot armor.

Kirby already succeeded.

This isn't a game, so it's not gameplay or a cutscene. It's simply an occurrence within canon.

Yet, it fits cutscenes better than it fits gameplay.

And the cotton ball example did nothing to help with that.

Well, Kirby's squishy skin is why he's so durable.

I see. So most characters shod be able to knock it out with a couple of hits due to their size.

That is accurate.

So Kirby survived an FTL attack before, or...?

No. However

Kirby survived a planetary explosion.

Planetary explosion > FTL attack.

Therefore, Kirby can survive an FTL attack.

Sonic could go in one direction (say, north), get out of Kirby's view, and then go along the edge of the arena to the other side to confuse Kirby. Kirby didn't see Sonic go south, so he thinks he's on the north edge. By the time Kirby figures this out, Sonic will have charged the attack (which takes about two seconds with the upgrade). The beam would be blocked by Super Sonic anyways.

Super Sonic can't block things that take control of him.

How exactly would Kirby dodge the attacks you listed? The LSA homes in on moving enemies.

Can the LSA hit something that high in the air?

The concussion, stress, and everything else I've mentioned could contribute to this.

Logically, if Olimar was so stressed, he wouldn't even write anything in the journal at all.

Prove it.

Did we see a concussion? No.

In fact, Louie's helmet wasn't cracked, so it's not like he could've hit his head on anything to get the concussion. And, having used one, Olimar knows about the durability of the helmets.

As in, Louie was stranded at the beginning of the game if I'm not mistaken.

This might lead to stress, which would prevent Olimar from writing anything.

Right, because that would totally work out for him. Let's see what this would result in:

• Guilt of being a murderer/beating up his boss
• Wanted by the law for those same reasons

Olimar uses Pikmin to beat up the officers easily.

• Unemployed
• Unable to support his family

This doesn't happen when Olimar stops the law.

Plus, I doubt that Olimar would do that in the first place (he's friendly with the President if I'm not mistaken, and that wouldn't in any way help the situation).

If they were that friendly, the President would have ignored the debt Olimar had to pay.

Prove it.

The observation was made directly after Olimar found the item.

No, I'm using events in the games to disprove Olimar's statement.

You are taking events and speculating things that happened from them. When was it said Olimar was insane in Pikmin 2? When was it said Olimar receives stress from Louie being stranded? When was it said that stress and insanity leads to Olimar making false conclusion? Making so many guesses doesn't exactly lead to a good argument.

Do you have video, quotes, etc to back this up?

Our salvage operations have yielded several unbelievably advanced artifacts. According to my analysis, this cutting device can slice through the fabric of time and space. My days of struggling to open food canisters are over!

And Rosalina sends out more in quick succession to keep the blasts coming.

Galaxies require tons of Star Bits to create. There is no "quick succession" that would be happening with the blasts.

Starman, Mega Mushroom, etc. Starman defeats Boos, so it would also at least damage Ghost Kirby, if not serving as an OHKO.

Rosalina probably would've used those up by now.

So do Octoombas (the Galaxy enemies that shoot rocks), and yet they still get stunned.

Then Kirby would fly up to dodge the Star Bits, and use Possess to dash rather quickly away from him.

Sonic Wind follows moving enemies.

Marth would be moving after it was activated though.

He's protected from the attacks you mentioned.

I didn't mention any attacks.

Unless the sphere itself has that level of power, we shouldn't take the power from its creators and apply it to the weapon itself.

But Naga used her power to create it.[/quote]

 

[Munomario777]

Starman/Super Sonic and Protect have totally different effects.

For evidence from the games, Invincible Mario is still hurt by lava. Protect can stop attacks from Entei, who is hotter than lava.

Which is why the rule only takes effect if an invincibility item hasn't been shown to encounter an attack. For instance, Rainbow Mario doesn't encounter psychic attacks, so we use Protect.

Why not?

We never see him do it.

Unstoppable walls cannot do this.

Crushing damage =/= laser damage.

I don't think that's necessary, but I will tag to see if anyone changed their mind.

@Nerdicon @Dryn @ShadowLBlue @Reckless Godwin 2.0 @BaganSmashBros
Are you guys still on the same side for Muno's invincibility rule (treating all invincibility item/techniques as same unless otherwise stated)?

That's not really what I was asking; I was asking if everyone else wanted a revote. We should come up with a policy for that, by the way.
@Nerdicon @Dryn @ShadowLBlue @Reckless Godwin 2.0 @BaganSmashBros
Should revotes be allowed or not, and if so, under what conditions?

The definition of weakness is "a quality or feature regarded as a disadvantage or fault". Marx being launched off is never regarded as such, and therefore it isn't a weakness.

It's a disadvantage because Marx is too far away from Kirby after being launched to kill him, and he explodes afterwards. Even if it isn't a weakness, it's still a quality of Marx that Kirby is taking advantage of.

He's not that much slower. Not slower enough to get a Copy Ability and summon a speed boost for.

The Magic summon moves at high speeds.

The copy hasn't shown any differences from the original Meta Knight.

And? As you said in the past, the real Meta Knight is trapped in another dimension, is he not?

I think it would be pretty hard to dodge something you're running right into.

Me too. See the Unleashed opening.

Oh. Well, that's not really relevant to Sleep Kirby vs Needle Kirby/Spin Dashing Sonic.

True. Still, Needle Kirby and Sonic are different because Sonic is spinning at high speeds whereas Needle Kirby is not.

Kirby survived an explosion that covered a giant portion of Popstar.

Which one?

Planetary explosion > supersonic buzzsaw attack.

How about a light-speed buzzsaw attack?

Therefore, Kirby can survive a supersonic buzzsaw attack.

They're two different types of damage.

We were talking about Sectonia.

Ah, right. Replace Marx with Sectonia, then.

He used the beam to defeat Sectonia.

And the beam caused the explosion.

I am creating a feat backed up by feats from the anime.

Which are?

It is also a diagonal attack, so he would be dodging the edge of the Clown Car.

He'd need to get height, or else he'd hit the ground first.

Even if Bowser could put the Clown Car over Kirby, he'd just throw it away and out of Bowser's reach.

Giga Bowser is too heavy.

Or, it would fall of of Bowser naturally due to gravity, whereas Ninja Kirby would stick to Bowser's skin.

Who said that the Clown Car was on top of Bowser? It's the other way around.

A) This is Jet Kirby, who doesn't tumble when he falls.
B) If Kirby ever did tumble, he'd just grab onto Bowser.

A) Prove it.
B) He lands face-first on the ground, and he doesn't get to his senses until he lands.

As I've mentioned before, Jet Kirby can fly much faster than Bowser can spin, and he can steer perfectly too, so spinning isn't a problem.

When does he "steer perfectly" in a situation like this?

Brick Blocks aren't made of brick; they're made of bricks. It seems like Mario would be breaking the bonds between the bricks, rather than actual bricks themselves.

You can see here that the bricks themselves are being broken apart.

Never. Kirby would be flat when the edge of the Clown Car is crushing him from above, and he'd get under the edge by becoming small and ducking for nigh flatness, and then pushing himself through the crack, becoming completely flat in the process, and finally popping back up.

Kirby would be between the walls, not between the wall and the ground.

It is indeed.

No, it's not. We've been over this before, but aside from the lack of distortion and all, there's also the approach to physics (which seems to be the popular one here) that says that real-life physics don't apply unless it's unspecified by the games. The behavior of Schwarz is specified in-game, so we don't use the real life behavior of black holes. Same goes for the ones from Galaxy/

That it is also done by weakness exploiting; a skyscraper doesn't explode if it catches on fire.

I fail to see how "weakness exploiting" is relevant.

it is to get a Power Star. If a Luma transforms into a galaxy, it is to give Mario a Power Star.

When is this intent stated?

It does. When you use Shadow Ball once, the PP (points to use the powers of Shadow Ball) change from 15 to 14.

And the "points to use the powers" is energy being consumed.

Hydro Pump always has the same size when it's used in the games, regardless of how much PP is left. Therefore, same amount of pints.

Perhaps not the best example. Hydro Pump's PP equates to force used to propel the water instead, or something of that nature.

Thunder with 9 PP left does roughly the same amount (sometimes more) of damage as Thunder with 1 PP left. If the volts decreased with the PP, Thunder with 1 PP left would do much less damage than Thunder with 9 PP left.

Think of PP like an energy meter. One PP is one use, which equates to X amount of volts. Thunder uses X amount of volts to use, so the PP goes from 9 to 8 per use of Thunder. The attack's strength doesn't change with PP, but the energy left to use it does.

A black hole is a hole with a black coloration too. How does that fit better than the celestial object?

By virtue of the fact that Schwarz doesn't match up with said celestial object.

Manholes don't really kill anyone, they just cause people to fall.

And likely killing them.

More specifically, a black hole.

Yes, a hole with a black coloration.

Cutscenes aren't meant to let the hero get to the goal. That is gameplay. Cutscenes are what happens after the goal.

For example, Mario reaching the flag is the goal. It happens during gameplay.

Gameplay serves to provide a fun experience for the player, among other things. Cutscenes are built to progress the story.

Similarly, Kirby defeating the boss was the goal. It happened during gameplay.

A goal, not the goal.

Kirby already succeeded.

And death would result in a failure.

Yet, it fits cutscenes better than it fits gameplay.

It doesn't fit either, so we don't categorize it as one. It doesn't need to be a cutscene or gameplay.

Well, Kirby's squishy skin is why he's so durable.

Since when does squishy skin equal durability?

No. However

Kirby survived a planetary explosion.

Planetary explosion > FTL attack.

Therefore, Kirby can survive an FTL attack.

Addressed above.

Super Sonic can't block things that take control of him.

He can block laser beams. Also, you didn't address my other points.

Can the LSA hit something that high in the air?

Yes, provided Sonic is also at that altitude.

Logically, if Olimar was so stressed, he wouldn't even write anything in the journal at all.

Prove it.

Did we see a concussion? No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

In fact, Louie's helmet wasn't cracked, so it's not like he could've hit his head on anything to get the concussion. And, having used one, Olimar knows about the durability of the helmets.

The helmets are durable, so they don't crack. This doesn't stop Olimar from hitting his head unless it's somehow unable to touch the glass.

​

This might lead to stress, which would prevent Olimar from writing anything.

See above.

​

Olimar uses Pikmin to beat up the officers easily.

This doesn't happen when Olimar stops the law.

When?

​

If they were that friendly, the President would have ignored the debt Olimar had to pay.

If your friend owes you money, do you ignore it due to your friendship?

​

The observation was made directly after Olimar found the item.

Provide video evidence of Olimar seeing the knife rip a hole in spacetime, then.

​

You are taking events and speculating things that happened from them. When was it said Olimar was insane in Pikmin 2?

It's evidenced in Pikmin 1, which takes place directly before.

When was it said Olimar receives stress from Louie being stranded?

It's a logical conclusion.

When was it said that stress and insanity leads to Olimar making false conclusion?

It seems rather obvious that being insane would make you a bit off in the head.

Making so many guesses doesn't exactly lead to a good argument.

Right, that's why I'm basing my claims on the games.

​

Our salvage operations have yielded several unbelievably advanced artifacts. According to my analysis, this cutting device can slice through the fabric of time and space. My days of struggling to open food canisters are over!

As in, quotes from a WoG or something of the sort.

​

Galaxies require tons of Star Bits to create. There is no "quick succession" that would be happening with the blasts.

Rosalina has 9,999 Star Bits at her disposal. At minimum, a galaxy takes 400 Star Bits and a few seconds to create, and with many Lumas firing their own streams, this time would be greatly reduced.

​

Rosalina probably would've used those up by now.

Yes, used them to defeat Kirby.

​

Then Kirby would fly up to dodge the Star Bits, and use Possess to dash rather quickly away from him.

Fair enough.

​

Marth would be moving after it was activated though.

Right. It follows moving enemies. As in, as the enemy moves, Sonic Wind moves.

​

I didn't mention any attacks.

You mentioned the Risen and Marth dealing some damage.

​

But Naga used her power to create it.

A blacksmith could use the power of a flame to craft a sword, but that sword doesn't necessarily have fire abilities.

 

[Crystanium]

I see. Worth noting is that the Metroid enemy is still partially visible while teleporting, as opposed to Chaos Control, which is a matter of disappearing and then reappearing. This would give Samus an indication of where the enemy appears. Sonic could likely take advantage of the element of surprise you mentioned for Shadow.

That's fine, considering Samus has dealt with several types of enemies capable of teleporting. In this video, you can see a warp hound on the left side teleport and end up teleporting away from Samus and still on the left side. The time it disappears and reappears looks instantaneous. This isn't so with Shadow. Considering Samus has a radar, I don't think Sonic will be able to catch Samus off-guard.

Because when the games don't specify their physics in certain situations, we need real life to help fill in the gaps.

Says who?

Gameplay takes precedence over real life.

And if that's the case, then let's not use our physics.

Edit: As for all invincibility being treated the same, it's clear they're not. If I had to defend my position on the light beam working against Ganondorf, then anything else has to be defended separately, rather than treated with "elemental compatibility" like it is at FactPile. After all, the law of identity should prove the things are different.

 

[Munomario777]

That's fine, considering Samus has dealt with several types of enemies capable of teleporting. In this video, you can see a warp hound on the left side teleport and end up teleporting away from Samus and still on the left side. The time it disappears and reappears looks instantaneous. This isn't so with Shadow. Considering Samus has a radar, I don't think Sonic will be able to catch Samus off-guard.

The enemies in Metroid don't seem to be attacking instantly after teleporting. They're teleporting, chilling out for a few seconds, then attacking (unless I'm missing something here). Sonic would be (and Shadow also does this in the clip). I don't see how a radar would help with reaction time.

Says who?

Me. If we don't fill in the gaps with real life physics, then things like the speed of sound in Metroid games (as referenced by the Speed Booster description) goes unanswered, as do many other crucial questions.

And if that's the case, then let's not use our physics.

Why not?

 

[Crystanium]

The enemies in Metroid don't seem to be attacking instantly after teleporting. They're teleporting, chilling out for a few seconds, then attacking (unless I'm missing something here). Sonic would be (and Shadow also does this in the clip). I don't see how a radar would help with reaction time.

They don't have to. It's only necessary for Samus to be able to respond to them. The radar would tell Samus if someone is behind her.

Me. If we don't fill in the gaps with real life physics, then things like the speed of sound in Metroid games (as referenced by the Speed Booster description) goes unanswered, as do many other crucial questions.

I assume physics applies at all times, you don't.

Why not?

To simplify things. We could go strictly by what we observe, not by what's said.

 

[Munomario777]

They don't have to. It's only necessary for Samus to be able to respond to them. The radar would tell Samus if someone is behind her.

We don't see her reacting to an instant attack. An enemy teleports, but that's irrelevant to Samus's reaction time unless we see her instantly responding to an enemy teleporting in front of her and attacking.

I assume physics applies at all times, you don't.

Our physics clearly don't apply at all times; it's obvious by looking at most of the games being discussed here.

To simplify things. We could go strictly by what we observe, not by what's said.

If we're not going off of things that are said, then lore is out the window, which throws off the majority of analyses, debates, etc here.

 

[Crystanium]

We don't see her reacting to an instant attack. An enemy teleports, but that's irrelevant to Samus's reaction time unless we see her instantly responding to an enemy teleporting in front of her and attacking.

She is responding. If an image appears before you, you are responding to it, regardless of whether or not it's attacking. How else do you think testing reaction time works?

Our physics clearly don't apply at all times; it's obvious by looking at most of the games being discussed here.

Of course, but it simplifies things.

If we're not going off of things that are said, then lore is out the window, which throws off the majority of analyses, debates, etc here.

Lore isn't dismissed. If something is described as a laser but doesn't behave like one, then who am I to say it's not a laser? It just doesn't function like our lasers.

 

[Munomario777]

She is responding. If an image appears before you, you are responding to it, regardless of whether or not it's attacking. How else do you think testing reaction time works?

We don't see her doing anything to take care of the teleporting enemy. She doesn't shoot it as soon as it appears; she's fighting another enemy. Something could teleport to the left of me right now (ignoring the fact that teleportation doesn't exist IRL), but that doesn't mean that I have superhuman reaction time.

Of course, but it simplifies things.

I'd rather be accurate than be simple.

Lore isn't dismissed. If something is described as a laser but doesn't behave like one, then who am I to say it's not a laser? It just doesn't function like our lasers.

Right; it doesn't function like our lasers. Our lasers travel at the speed of light, but, say, Star Fox lasers don't.

 

[Diddy Kong]

vs is still undecided I see?

 

[Crystanium]

We don't see her doing anything to take care of the teleporting enemy. She doesn't shoot it as soon as it appears; she's fighting another enemy. Something could teleport to the left of me right now (ignoring the fact that teleportation doesn't exist IRL), but that doesn't mean that I have superhuman reaction time.

She doesn't need to. The fact that something could appear to the left of you and you noticing would mean that you're responding to it. Whether or not you act on it is an entirely different thing. I suppose the pirate commander would be a better choice, considering "Commanders make heavy use of their personal teleporter" and "Each [pirate commander] has been a commando for at least ten years." (MP3:C Logbook, Pirate Commander) Honestly, 0.607 seconds is more than enough time to react, especially for someone as athletic as Samus.

I'd rather be accurate than be simple.

Then go by what games demonstrate through observation.

Right; it doesn't function like our lasers. Our lasers travel at the speed of light, but, say, Star Fox lasers don't.

Which is why I'm not going to think it's an actual laser, but only called such.

Edit: I think I'm going to try figure out more about the times I've found.

 

[Munomario777]

She doesn't need to. The fact that something could appear to the left of you and you noticing would mean that you're responding to it. Whether or not you act on it is an entirely different thing. I suppose the pirate commander would be a better choice, considering "Commanders make heavy use of their personal teleporter" and "Each [pirate commander] has been a commando for at least ten years." (MP3:C Logbook, Pirate Commander) Honestly, 0.607 seconds is more than enough time to react, especially for someone as athletic as Samus.

Simply noticing Sonic won't be enough. She'll have to dodge, counter attack, defend, etc. If she's been shown to do that to a teleporting enemy and do it effectively, then I stand corrected.

Then go by what games demonstrate through observation.

And the lore they provide.

Which is why I'm not going to think it's an actual laser, but only called such.

Same here. Star Fox lasers seem a bit more like the "plasma bullets" featured in the Star Wars series to me.

 

[Crystanium]

Simply noticing Sonic won't be enough. She'll have to dodge, counter attack, defend, etc. If she's been shown to do that to a teleporting enemy and do it effectively, then I stand corrected.

While not an act of teleportation on this ghalmanian's part, this demonstrates Samus' ability to counter this enemy, who has the element of surprise. That's what we're working with: the element of surprise. Here you are. It's at 14 seconds. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the sense move is anything like the spider sense.

And the lore they provide.

Only if you're going to allow physics.

Same here. Star Fox lasers seem a bit more like the "plasma bullets" featured in the Star Wars series to me.

Probably pulsed energy projectile.

 

[Munomario777]

While not an act of teleportation on this ghalmanian's part, this demonstrates Samus' ability to counter this enemy, who has the element of surprise. That's what we're working with: the element of surprise. Here you are. It's at 14 seconds.

Rather impressive, but the enemy's "attack" still connected; Samus didn't dodge it or anything. It still worked out for her in this case, of course, but I don't see her countering the Light Speed Attack in a similar fashion.

Only if you're going to allow physics.

I am, as long as they're not contradicted by the games.

Probably pulsed energy projectile.

Those are invisible and non-lethal.

 

[Crystanium]

Rather impressive, but the enemy's "attack" still connected; Samus didn't dodge it or anything. It still worked out for her in this case, of course, but I don't see her countering the Light Speed Attack in a similar fashion.

That's the animation. Notice that by countering, Samus is instantly outside of the tail and holding onto it instead. That is the counter animation. Had no counter been performed, Samus would have still been wrapped in the tail and swung around before being thrown to the ground. I'm still not sure how Samus is supposed to be harmed by LSA when momentum for relativistic speeds differ.

I am, as long as they're not contradicted by the games.

LSA contradicts physics.

Those are invisible and non-lethal.

Weapons meant to be non-lethal can become lethal. Microwaves can be used to heat up only the skin of humans enough to have them running, but if amplified, it would be able to harm them. We agree it's not your typical laser, but they do fire in pulses. I'm not sure what else they're supposed to be. "Energy beam" really doesn't tell us much.

 

[Munomario777]

That's the animation. Notice that by countering, Samus is instantly outside of the tail and holding onto it instead. That is the counter animation. Had no counter been performed, Samus would have still been wrapped in the tail and swung around before being thrown to the ground.

Samus didn't counter attack until about a second or so after the attack connected. In the case of a light-speed buzzsaw attack, it would be a bit too late by then.

I'm still not sure how Samus is supposed to be harmed by LSA when momentum for relativistic speeds differ.

Explain.

LSA contradicts physics.

Right, so we don't apply physics to the attributes of the LSA that contradict physics.

Weapons meant to be non-lethal can become lethal. Microwaves can be used to heat up only the skin of humans enough to have them running, but if amplified, it would be able to harm them. We agree it's not your typical laser, but they do fire in pulses. I'm not sure what else they're supposed to be. "Energy beam" really doesn't tell us much.

This is sci-fi, so it probably just doesn't exist in real life (yet). I'll just work with plasma bullets unless something else is found.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus didn't counter attack until about a second or so after the attack connected. In the case of a light-speed buzzsaw attack, it would be a bit too late by then.

Please address my argument instead of repeating yourself.

Explain.

We've been through this. You thought 99% the speed of light would do, but that wouldn't even work.

Right, so we don't apply physics to the attributes of the LSA that contradict physics.

Traveling at the speed of light while being made of mass contradicts physics.