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We're talking about the Wheel ability, not the Wheelie Bike.
This has many parallels to real life, though. The objects, the branding, etc. all match up.
That honestly shouldn't matter anyway, since 29.17 mi/h is the speed that I found to be the highest based on this video as the wheel. In fact, the wheel ability allows Kirby to drive on water, so that should put his speed at 67.11 mi/h. It's not like his wheel ability is the fastest anyway. That's the jet ability.
So? The fact that Olimar and his friend are extremely tiny would be impossible in our world. Due to fewer atoms by magnitudes, Olimar wouldn't be a very intelligent person. He's also be very cold. Let's not even bother with the subject of stepping into water. He'd be like an ant floating in water, dying. How would Olimar's organs work?
Just because it travels on water doesn't mean that it travels at that speed.
Of course Olimar couldn't exist IRL. That doesn't change the fact that PNF-404's relics are shown and implied to work similarly to how they do in the real world. Plus, how would Olimar know its capabilities without first using it to rip a space time hole?
You only need to be traveling 30 m/s to run on water.
At least 2 seconds for a full charge.
And that doesn't seem to apply in the games in question. In fact, basilisks can run on water at much lower speeds.
I see. Wheel(ie Bike) seems to be the best option for escaping/getting up close, then.
I think it's just worded wrong, and the attacker is the user. Like I said in my last post, the wiki also says repeated use of it corrupts the holder's mind and soul. If worked by possessing the attacks mind, then why would it corrupt the user's mind?
True.
Well he has copy essences so he should be able to just use them if he loses a generic ability, but one-time abilities, Star Rod and Hypernova should only get one use since they can't actually be carried and we're just giving them to him to let him reflect his abilities.
oh ok.
Sorry I missed it.
But how does that work when a match-up isn't analyzed in a mock fight? For example if we're doing greninja vs Mario in the offense vs defense version, how do we determine what his type is before he gets to counter?
Uh, how about the length of a basketball court?
Well he has to do it under his own power but sure.
Do you have a source for this?
Is that how it works in the games?
I don't see it making much of a difference. If you're so concerned about it, you could just account for each possible typing.
That seems fair.
Right. I think his black magic could come in handy here.
Basilisks?
Also known as the "jesus lizard".
Just accept it. Animations like that aren’t supposed to make sense, just like twirling one’s weapon around before striking causes triple damage .
Fire Emblem characters can dodge lighting bolts and conflagrations like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL86AE8D892CD8838A&v=fgcI1KfSwRY&feature=player_detailpage#t=436 at 7:18-7:22
50% more damage is a significant improvement.
Your right! A few more links clarified it for me http://www.fireemblemwiki.org/Darksphere.It possesses the holder's mind to protect them from damage, not the person attacking the holder.
@Dryn , @Kirby Dragons , @BaganSmashBros , @
Reckless Godwin 2.0
I think Bowser should be his normal size since, like Dryn said, being larger isn't necessairly better but we just let him have the ability to grow to his Sunshine size but at the tradeoff of speed for power.
You're right that nothing in Hyrule can kill him except the Master sword and Silver arrows but this doesn‘t account for weapons such as the ones in the Fire Emblem universe though. Coming back centuries later is still a loss.
Robin and Lucina can get evade bonuses against fire/lightning/wind and ice with the Weapon Triangle advantage afforded by their tombs http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Trinity_of_Magic.Characters that show resistance and/or immunity to lightning are
Mario can negate the damage via the super suit, Ness has the Franklin Badge, and Ganondorf has his holy weaponry shenanigans
Ha, ha, ha your kidding right? Olimar can’t wield that or anything else he can pick up on the Pikmin planet. That thing wouldn’t last 5 seconds against the Master Sword or Ragnell.Hey guys, I found something on Pikmin Wiki.
Our salvage operations have yielded several unbelievably advanced artifacts. According to my analysis, this cutting device can slice through the fabric of time and space. My days of struggling to open food canisters are over!
A dimensional cutter that slices through space and time, this is nothing to be trifled with. Good children will know not to play with this item.
has a weapon that allows him to cut through space and time. Broken much? That rises him higher on my list.
But not enough to make the boss attacks "planetary" or whatever he was saying.
I'm wondering what the relevance of that is.
You said that Kirby has to move at X speed to run on water. I pointed out that basilisks run on water at slower speeds.
Does this happen when they're stacked in the games?
I'm not sure if it's in the actual rule list that I've been keeping, but I know we all kind of agreed on it around the time we first got here. I think @@ShadowLBlue did we ever vote on each character only getting one of each item they could have? I don't think we did, and I'm opposed to it. Having one of each item that they can't hold but would make sense (Like Pit bringing some multiplayer items) would be neat too. This would cause
Munomario777
was around here for that. The idea was something characters hadn't been capable of holding but would make sense to have (i.e. any of Mario's power-ups) would be granted to them once. This also applies to non-equipment items like PT's Full Restore, Ether, etc (although now that I think about it, I think he should be granted one healing item per Pokemon. All of Kirby's limited usage copy abilities would presumably fall under this rule although we're giving him copy essences for his "generic" abilities.I think they should act as depicted in game unless we have reason to suspect otherwise. I don't think Lightning (unless it's definitely lightning, like with Pokemon) should do extra damage to the non-humans (including Mario type humans), but obviously someone like Little Mac should probably die from a few Thunderbolts.
Yes, but not for his special skills like Crash and Mike. Those should get one time use, although I think UFO should be an exception.
Well muno already said it was the opposite and that DK punches harder.
Does he ever actually use this in game? I'm not trying to rain on your point, it just seems like it could be an example of exaggerated lore.Hey guys, I found something on Pikmin Wiki.
Our salvage operations have yielded several unbelievably advanced artifacts. According to my analysis, this cutting device can slice through the fabric of time and space. My days of struggling to open food canisters are over!
A dimensional cutter that slices through space and time, this is nothing to be trifled with. Good children will know not to play with this item.
So would his Barry pixl (reflects anything but has cooldown lag), but like I said his chances of beating her are only like 10% at most.
Cool
If you mean a source for it corrupting the users mind, that's further down on the same wiki page you linked too.
In KSSU (the only one with copy essences deluxes) one time skills like Crash lacked essences.
It would against certain elemental attacks and physical moves, at least against characters in his tier. He's not beating Kirby, but if he could changing types to be able to resist his copy ability would help.
Cool. Can you tag everyone and get their thoughts on it? I won't be able to log back on all weekend so I think you should ask if we all agreed that a basketball court is a fair length.
Works for me
All good points. I forgot about this.
Cool.
Well I think that's 5-0: Me, dryn, muno, Kirby D, you. PASS.
Going to be the longest 2-3 weeks ever. I was in the middle of playing FE6 on my laptop
Not to mention they actually survive repeated blows from lightning, that unlike some characters attacks actually resembles lightning in speed and appearance.
Pssh, in the GBA games they get stabbed through the chest and keep on trucking.
Ah. You confused me by the name "Jesus lizard". Anyway, from what I'm reading, they can run 4.9 feet per second, which is 3.34 mi/h. I can walk 4.5 miles in an hour from what I tested. According to Wikipedia, humans walk about 3.1 mi/h. Basilisks also have a larger surface area on their feet, allowing them to create pockets of air. They cannot run for too long on water, though. Their mass would also play a factor.
It's never happened because Samus never acquires that many suits to allow 100% damage reduction. The highest has been 75% damage reduction and while some might think that absorbing SA-X gives Samus 95% damage reduction, I personally ignore that. However, having put in the information and correcting things concerning the varia, gravity, Phazon, dark, and light suit at Wikitroid, I have an understanding of how the damage reduction works. Since we're using composite forms, this is a different case, and using the same method I've used to determine the damage reduction from the suits listed, with the varia and Phazon suit alone, it would add up to 100% damage reduction.
No, I mean a source for it not possessing the attacker's mind and instead doing what you said.
I see. I think we should have those be one time use, then.
It wouldn't make too much of a difference; it would only really change damage values (and the occasional complete damage negation).
Ok. @Dryn @
Nerdicon
@
Reckless Godwin 2.0
@Dastardly Ridleylash @
Kirby Dragons
Kirby also seems to be rather lightweight. Either way, this doesn't mean that Kirby is moving at a certain speed, because of the rule that states that objects move at the speed shown unless stated otherwise.
So Samus can wear multiple suits at once (including the ones you just listed)? Do they simply add up their resistance factors in the Metroid games (30% + 30% = 60% of original damage), or do they reduce damage based on the previous reduction (100 - 30% = 70 - 30% = 49% of original damage)?
6,150 (low end of hypersonic speed)6,150 (Mach 5, achievable through the jet ability) 2,000+ (general speed is only described as supersonic, the shinespark moves faster, somewhere in the hypersonic range) 1350 (through the Brawler Claws + speed modifiers) 1080 (Super Speed) Gunship: It can reach speeds of over 7 times the speed of lightArwing: Mach 4.2 ( 3197.04)Lightning Chariot: No specified speed, but much faster than Pit's max ground speed
I suppose 28.65 meters is fine.Ok. @Dryn @
Do you all agree to the characters starting one basketball court's length apart, with the center of said court being in the center of the arena?
Comparatively speaking, yes, 9.69 lbs. is light, but heavier than a basilisk. I'm fine with working with the speed for the wheel ability, though. He could cover 100 meters in 7.71 seconds.
Yes. In Metroid Prime, she acquires the varia suit, which grants her 10% damage reduction. If hit by a geemer in her base form, she'll receive 10 damage. When she has the varia suit, she'll only take 9 damage. The gravity suit will reduce her damage by 20%, meaning she'll only receive 8 damage. When she acquires the Phazon suit, granting her a 50% damage reduction, she'll only receive 5 damage.
Well, Mach 5 should be 6,182.4 km/h. Samus' should be 2,472.96 km/h. I'm not sure where the speeds for Pit, Dark Pit, and Palutena come from. Samus' gunship travels 7.2 times faster than light. I want to be clear on that. The arwing is supposed to travel Mach 4.2 in the atmosphere. I think they meant a higher altitude. At 20,000, sound travels 660 mi/h, so multiplying that should give you 2,772 mi/h (4,462.92 km/h). My only problem with the arwing speed is that there's no citation. I'm not sure how to find out how fast the lightning chariot travels.Speed is a large factor in the viability of characters in this thread, you'll notice that plenty of the higher tiers are generally pretty fast. How fast, it'd be pretty simple to find out. Through non-vehicle movement, the top 5 fastest characters in this thread are (in km per hour)
Being a faster character comes with numerous perks, it's easier to dodge attacks, you generally have a quick reaction time, you can get from point a to point b quickly, etc. Some characters don't have this kind of natural speed but can achieve something better through a vehicle of sorts. These include...
And that's just about it concerning speed, but this movement isn't too great if you can't slam on the brakes. Characters like Sonic and Pit are pretty bad at slowing down, often running directly into walls due to their own speed. This where characters like Kirby and Samus, who can stop on a dime, start taking a lead in the realm of mobility. Kirby can convert his forward Jet momentum into the immensely powerful Jet Cracker, while Samus converts the energy into the similarly powerful Shinespark.
In the end, speed is a very important asset to these characters and is a decisive factor in determining who would win. As it stands, Samus and Kirby seem to have the best mobility, with their high speed and quick braking ability.
With that, da nerd signs off
Nerdicon
Yes, of course.
That doesn't mean that they stack. Can Samus wear both the Varia and Gravity Suit at the same time?
So you suspect that they don't stack, or...?
The thing is, in Metroid Prime, the Varia Suit only reduces damage by 10%. This seems to indicate some sort of incompatibility with it and the Phazon Suit, which makes sense given that the Phazon Suit is just Samus's regular Power Suit corrupted by phazon energy. If you try to upgrade a suit that is now corrupted by some foreign energy, chances are it won't work quite right.
Yeah, the varia suit reduces damage by 10% in Metroid Prime and the Phazon suit reduces it by 50%. That's what I've been saying. I don't think all varia suits and gravity suits are the same because not only do they vary in damage reduction, not all varia suits protect Samus from acid or extreme cold, or add a 9% speed increase, and not all gravity suits from magma/lava. In Metroid: Zero Mission, the varia suit cuts damage by 20% and this was probably intentional because while it reduced damage by 50% in the NES version, MZM also added the gravity suit so that the damage was cut by 50%.
That's how I and @
Reckless Godwin 2.0
interpreted it. Already explained my reasoning. Agreed.
It'd make a big deal in some match-ups, but I'm not trying to waste time on Greninja right now.
Nerdicon
Maybe he didn't know the speed. It looks like the Blue Falcon's normal speed if speed is preferred over acceleration is 1,003 km/h (622.98 mi/h), but it can go faster with the boost power.
The Lightning Chariot doesn't look like it's passing the planet below very fast and the time to enter the warp tunnel takes a while. In the cut-scene where Phos and Lux fly through the force field is too fast to see, though. It looks like a beam of light, probably based on the names, Phos and Lux, which both mean light in Greek and Latin. The idol description says something interesting, however. "Its extreme speed is matched only by the destructive shots fired from the unicorns horns." I see a lightning attack used every now and then, but I don't know if that's coming from the horns. If so, then yeah, we could say they travel at the speed of lightning.
I see. They don't seem to be different Varia Suits, though; they look the same, have the same purpose, etc.
Interpretation isn't solid evidence, let alone of a wiki page. I suggest that we find the original lore from the games and go from there.That's how I and @
M'kay.
Don’t you have other computers or a hacked Wii handy? You’ll be back to Roy and friend’s happy slaughter party time before you know it! Are you enjoying it so far?Going to be the longest 2-3 weeks ever. I was in the middle of playing FE6 on my laptop
Not to mention they actually survive repeated blows from lightning, that unlike some characters attacks actually resembles lightning in speed and appearance.
Pssh, in the GBA games they get stabbed through the chest and keep on trucking.
Is there any way to damage the suit to bring the damage reduction down to less than 100%?
They are. The exceptions are the varia suit from Metroid Prime to Metroid Prime 3: Corruption and Super Metroid to Metroid Fusion before the crash. The gravity suit from Super Metroid to Metroid: Other M are also the same. Samus presumably doesn't have the gravity suit active in Metroid Fusion before the crash.
I'm not sure, honestly. I also am not sure what you mean by multiplicative and additive. Are you referring to multiplying the varia and Phazon suit, rather than adding it? That would make a difference, but the suits have always added the damage reduction, not multiplied. Say we multiplied the varia and gravity suits, as well as the Phazon suit from all the games (ignoring Metroid: Other M, since it's the same defense and armor from Super Metroid), then Samus would have a 0.00175% damage reduction. Let's use the 100 energy example again.
When is it stated that they're different?
It's not stated, it's demonstrated.
Inconsistencies happen; for example, the Mini Mushroom didn't gain the ability to run up walls until New Super Mario Bros. U. Nevertheless, I'll address your arguments:
Additive: Super Metroid Ex.: V+G or (50%+25%)=75% damage reduction.
Under most circumstances the Gravity suit replaces the Varia suit's damage mitigation, so it seems like the highest damage reduction for Samus seems to be 75% from Super Metroid.
That looks less like an inconsistency and more like a new feature added into the game to serve a purpose. Wall running is not something new in the Marioverse. It was first introduced in Super Mario World and I'm sure in the Marioverse, there's more than one way to run up a wall. I'm also confused as to why you think the Phazon suit is incompatible.
So Xenoblade uses the multiplicative? Also, what is "A" and "D" supposed to mean? I'd be interested in learning more about your method. I'm also wishing I paid more attention to the talk about Shulk.
Are you referring to the fact that in Super Metroid, removing the varia suit while leaving the gravity suit on makes it so that the gravity suit is reducing damage by 75% and negating the effects of heat damage? It seemed to me that in MOM, Samus' gravity suit reduces damage by 75%.
Still, it's the properties of an item changing from game to game. Another example is the Fire Flower, which has a time limit in the Galaxy games but not in the rest of the series (in fact, the Ice Flower has a much more radical change).
As I said before, the Phazon suit is corrupted by Phazon energy, and is essentially "damaged" (but in a good way, if that makes sense), so I'd expect the Varia suit to not work quite as well (although not be entirely incompatible).
These suits all look the same, act roughly the same (with some game-to-game differences, which don't mean much as seen in Super Metroid/Other M), and it's never stated that they're separate.
It's not referred to as "Gravity suit Mk (x)", though. It's just "the Gravity suit". Of course there could be different applications for the technology, but I don't see much indication that there are multiple Gravity suits.
Of course. It wouldn't mean much on its own, but when combined with the many similarities (and Other M demonstrating that the differences don't mean anything), it's just another supporting factor.
Actually it uses both! The Formula is located here: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Physical_Defence, but doesn’t account for Monado Armor here: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Monado_Armour. If you want to play around with that formula you can use this infamous guy’s stats: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Mischievous_Naberius.
Nah, only the unlimited use abilities.
Yet, there's still plenty of reason to believe that if someone winds up, their punch will be quite powerful (note Giant Punch, also Sonic's/Wario's fsmashes).
Fine, then Mewtwo uses Future Sight (which goes past Protect) and attacks regular Sonic. Sonic'd be unconscious after enough uses of the move.
Uh, that's what the pictures were showing, Kirby traveling the distance in 1/4 of a second.
I am going to do a different measuring for Kirby's speed. Wheel Kirby goes much faster than Dedede's tank. The average tank moves around 45 MPH on the road. That puts Kirby at about 60 MPH.
Normal humans don't run at speeds exceeding 18 MPH. Normal humans run at speeds around 10 MPH. Even the actual athletes don't run that fast, they run at about 16 MPH.
The clone did it because Kirby wanted him to do it in that one instance.
If your logic is that Sonic's attacks would be powerful because they can destroy metal, then the same applies for Kirby, since he can destroy Metaluns and Big Metalun. Also, LSA has starting lag where Kirby can dodge, or he could just take it (seeing as regular Kirby survived a planetary explosion in the ending of KTD).
An obstacle that can jump into the enemy's attacks and block them.
Except they are facing Kirby, because Kirby flies in front of them.
No, but I don't see why you bring this up, because Bowser isn't invincible.
See below.
Then the Luma that shot them wouldn't have any Star Bits, so not quick.
B) What do you think they are? Hot dogs?B) When is it proven that those things are actual black holes?
C)
There seems to be some light distortion there.
Earlier, as a response to Wheel Kirby, you were saying that characters can dodge attacks, so that makes them quick. Now, you're saying that dodging an attack doesn't make a character quick.
None of those would even work on Kirby as a stone
The actual attack Kirby dodges is touch damage.
The fact that Mac can take their punches, and Mac's punches are quite effective.
Math is involved a lot of the time, plus things stated in the games/episodes/movies/whatever are taken into account.
Are their punches actually five or seven times stronger than Mac's?
Gameplay/lore > real life, so your argument that Pikmin takes place on Earth is invalid. Like Dryn said, Olimar studied the knife enough to actually get an analysis on it, and it wouldn't be much of a treasure if it was an ordinary knife.
I doubt it, there were two examples of lore that confirmed this, plus the actual name of the treasure itself.
Everyone's just counting playable characters.
Okay, then we should only let Kirby use Crash etc. once (as in not renew it after it's used up).
Such as?
That takes two turns to activate, during which Sonic would likely KO Mewtwo (and if not, he would only lose a few Rings, which is no big deal really).
I didn't see Kirby at one side of the screen in one image and the other side in another image. He started about 2/3 of the way through.
A) Unless the tank is stated to move at that speed, it doesn't.
Mario and co. clearly are not normal humans. They jump 2-3 times their body height. Athletes do run at those speeds; see this article.
As proven by?
Multiple security doors and military-grade robots > one rather small chunk of metal.
Did he do that willingly, or was he crushed/flattened by an external force?
Not in Stone form.
How well can Kirby steer the jet form?
None of Mario's attacks can damage Bowser in, say, the final boss of NSMBU.
Lumas pull Star Bits from an external source. In Galaxy, it's Mario's Star Bit count, and here, it's Rosalina's.
B) I was thinking something resembling a vacuum cleaner (or Kirby's inhale, even).B) What do you think they are? Hot dogs?
C) The black hole isn't the creature's mouth, it's a large black hole (with distorted light).
When did I say that? I can't recall; could you quote it please so I know what you're talking about?
And Kirby can't effectively attack in Stone form, and as I've already proven, the Helpers would be defeated rather easily.
Since when was this about an invincible Kirby? We're talking about Kirby reacting to Sonic teleporting in and teleporting.
The teleport seems rather quick to me. Sonic might be better off just using the Light Speed Attack or something similar, though.
How does that relate to the strength of DK's punches?
And how do you know that everything is accurate, even when it doesn't directly come from the things you listed (such as, say, the method for calculating power levels)?
We're discussing "planetary" Kirby bosses vs. regular Kirby enemies.
Gameplay and lore both suggest that PNF-404 is similar to Earth.
Olimar's journal =/= lore, and the name is irrelevant.
Have Pikmin done this sort of thing before (or rather, has Olimar organized them efficiently enough to do so, and quickly enough to not get killed before they're finished)? What would swinging the knife like this do exactly?
So? There are different flowers in our world. Why must fire and ice flowers all be the same?
More like "infected" than "damaged". The power suit has organic components. While it's stated to be corrupted, or infected, actually ("viral exposure"), notice it says nothing negative about the Phazon suit, but only beneficial things. This is likely due to the fact that the power suit is modular in nature. Not only has it been modified by Phazon exposure, but it's been also modified in the past with Luminoth technology (dark and light suit), Federation technology (PED suit and technically the Metroid vaccine), and space pirate technology (hazard shield). I don't see why the varia suit wouldn't work very well, especially when having the Phazon suit doesn't affect the effects of the varia suit in Metroid Prime.
In Metroid Prime, Samus loses the varia suit among other upgrades. She acquires another one some time while on Tallon IV. In Metroid Fusion, Samus loses all of her upgrades because her powered armor had to have large portions surgically removed. They're not the same.
Of course it's not given a designation. However, here's evidence that there's more than one version. Upon rebooting after being infected by a rezbit virus, Samus' HUD will show a message. This message includes, "Chozo Battle Suit Ver SA1-4468-VM6-P". There's your model number. I wouldn't expect games to get that technical upon acquiring a varia suit or gravity suit. If you and I are talking about a mouse for a laptop, we don't get into the details about what model number it is. We just refer to it as "a mouse". The fact that each kind functions differently is evidence enough.
Thanks. It's unfortunate we cannot see how the other upgrades function, since only Super Metroid allows you to activate and deactivate them. We've never seen the suits give Samus 100% damage reduction because none of the games have ever had upgrades to allow that. Again, if we take Metroid Fusion, then there's that 95% damage reduction people talk about, but I'm not concerned about that and have my own personal reason for ignoring it.
They seem to be the same species.
The suit does have some biological components, and those are likely the part being affected by Phazon and thus causing the Varia suit to not quote work right. Does Samus get the Varia suit before the Phazon suit? If so, then we should see if there's anything else that may be causing this.
According to the Metroid timeline, Metroid Prime is preceded only by Zero Mission, which features a 20% reduction in that game. This seems to mean that the Varia suit in ZM and the beginning of Prime are one in the same, but separate from the Varia suit featured throughout the rest of the series. As for Fusion, that's at the end of the timeline, so that only indicates that that game's Varia suit is different. Interestingly enough, the series is almost bookended with Samus replacing her suits.
Except the changes in function are negated when taking into account the lava damage found in Other M that you brought up. Also, this doesn't relate to the Varia or Gravity suits.
While it is a possibility, there's no such statement for the Varia and Gravity suits.
And this makes sense, since she lost her upgrades earlier in the game. However, since it takes place after the rest of the series, it doesn't have much bearing on other games.
Of course the power suit would have multiple models, but they wouldn't necessarily all be used by Samus.
If we count vehicles here, we shouldn't forgot Alph's Drake. Between Koppai and PNF-404 there are 279000 light years, and the Drake travels that distance 2 times. Supposing Koppai can survive about ten years from the start of Alph's journey, the Drake travels 279000 light years in 5 years. But we have to count that if Alph leave Koppai for ten years, on the planet that time is something like 2000 years. So the Drake has to travel something like hundreds of times the speed of light, and Alph can survive in this situation.