Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Sure, but it wouldn't block Mewtwo's mind controlling or such. And Mewtwo could take the Magic Armor before Link activates it.

When was it shown that Mewtwo's mind controlling can penetrate force fields better than the regular Psychic energy (and his other attacks, for that matter) can?

He was the main one debating for it.

Key word being "was".

More likely, he was just confused on what had happened.

Yes, because being confused will totally keep you from being sucked into a black hole.

Illogical game mechanics. Mewtwo has two hands, so he can hold two items. And since Mewtwo can float, it wouldn't trip him. And Trick returns items after the battle is over, not while it's going on.

Fair enough, he can hold two items. You said Mewtwo could place the item under his foot. In order for that to actually do anything, he would have to stand on it.

My point with Trick and Teleport is as follows:
Teleport is a move that causes the user to leave the battle.
Items stolen with Trick are given back when the user leaves the battle.
Therefore, items stolen with Trick are given back when the user uses Teleport.

A) Since when can she do that?
B) And when she starts her teleport, that leaves her open for Kirby to attack.
C) Kirby as a stone can switch back to regular Kirby. Once a Luma is a star, it's permanent.

A) Stars come in many shapes and sizes, so there's likely a small one she could create.
B) Except she has a force field, a Starman, and Lumas to keep Kirby busy.
C) "Eventually, that stardust reforms to create a new star... And so the cycle of life continues." Notice how Rosalina mentions the "cycle" of life here. Cycles repeat themselves, implying that the star will eventually become a Luma again (or something along those lines).

Black holes are unreliable because they can suck up Rosalina, whether she has a Starman or not. And a Starman user isn't invincible to one-shot attacks. Several Kirby enemies die in two hits, just like Rosalina, and Crash OHKO'S them, so they'd OHKO regular Rosalina. Anything that OHKO'S regular Rosalina OHKO's Invincible Rosalina.

If Rosalina keeps her distance, she will not get sucked up. Other than the fact that it hasn't been proven that Baton/Crash/etc. would one-shot Rosalina, this property alone wouldn't make it kill a Starman user. Case in point, the Thwomps. If a Thwomp crushes Mario (or Rosalina), it's an OHKO. If a Thwomp attempts to crush a Starman user (such as Rosalina), it is destroyed instead. OHKO =/= Starman killer.

The Wisps can do things by themselves, too. Alvis has never done anything as powerful as resetting the universe without a command from Shulk.

The Wisps never really do anything of value without Sonic fusing with them. Alvis can perform Monado Purge (he teaches Shulk how to perform it), among other things.

And if the worker knows that it's the right thing to do, he'll go ahead and do it. If a swarm of bees enters the construction site, he's not going to wait for the boss to tell him to use bug spray.

And how does that relate to the situation with Alvis?

Well, there's not anything showing Mewtwo wouldn't do that anyways.

Has he been shown to react to two objects coming at him simultaneously at those speeds and redirect them with TK?

And muno (i believe) isn't saying mind control wouldn't work, I think he's saying psychic attacks that do damage like Psychic (and some non-damaging Psychic moves like Telekinesis) wouldn't work.

Actually, I don't think that mind control could penetrate it if basic psychic energy can't.

I'm not sure. Just because a black hole isn't large, doesn't mean it's extremely dense. I only know of the Schwarzschild radius, but I'm not sure how to convert the radius so that I end up with the mass instead. The equation is rs = 2GM/c^2.

True, but seeing as how she is damaged by a small one, a large one would likely deal more damage to her. I dunno though, just speculating here.

You're then extrapolating. We've been through this before.

Extrapolation is extending evidence beyond what it is. The evidence is the lore saying that Link takes "no damage from electrical attacks".

I'm not sure. I think I looked up something like "what is the population of a small city" on Google.

I see.

Only because he's holding it above him.

Why would holding it beside him not work, then?

I don't think so. I'd imagine it more like the magic armor is a space shuttle that prevents harm from the ozone layer and the blue holy ring as space suit. Except it's the other way. The blue holy ring prevents greater heat, whereas the magic armor only demonstrates withstanding 700 centigrade. It's only "stacked" in that respect, but not as if it adds 700 to the 1,200+ so as to make it 1,900+ centigrade immunity.

Hm. Do you have an explanation for why that is, out of curiosity?

Of course not, so we cannot assume Link's bombs are equal to that of Samus' super missiles.

What about ten bombs, then?

Well, I'm not sure what's going on, but if it's becoming an issue, I'll point out that the Chozo ghosts phase in and out of existence, and with the x-ray visor tracking them, Samus can still harm them with the power beam.

Hmm. That seems more like invisibility than the intangibility of the Magic Cape.

Sure.

Seeing as how Dark Samus spent about five seconds shooting everyone else in the room (not to mention her grand opening and the time she takes aiming at Samus), dodging the blast is more common sense than reacting to high-speed objects the way I see it.

I know. It can go either way for Samus or Link. The grapple beam can probably reach 10 meters (32.8 feet). Maybe a little longer. See the distance between Samus and the grapple point?

I see. The Game Theory episode I brought up earlier found that the Hookshot (or rather, the Longshot)'s chain reaches about 65 feet, or around 20 meters.

That'd be helpful.

Okay, so I went to Dragon Roost Cavern and jumped from the top of the dungeon all the way down to the lower rope bridge (my original plan was to jump off of the mountain itself, but the top is a different area with a bottomless pit so you can't fall all the way down to sea level), and Link only took a quarter of a heart of damage. I also learned that falling into lava has the same effect (I learned that one the hard way... multiple times...).

In-game data from what?

From the Mega Man games.

I don't think it's a matter of one keeping their cool. Unless Rosalina has taught herself to ignore pain, she will react negatively to it. I'm not saying Kirby will win, but if you've ever had an ambulance pass by you, I'm sure it wasn't very pleasant.

Rosalina can get hit by an attack in 3D World and not flinch; rather, she will keep on running, jumping, or whatever she was doing before without an interruption (besides the gameplay mechanic of time freezing when a character gets hit/powers up).

I think part of that may be the way game play is, or Mega Man's skeletal structure is made of the ceramic titanium. The latter could explain why Mega Man is vulnerable to a number of attacks.

That seems pretty likely.

Here's my assumption, though, and tell me what you guys think because I'm geeking out over here with this new idea I have. Maybe the magic cape prevents damage from sword, spears, arrows, spikes, and whatever other sharp object because the surface area is smaller, whereas the ground and walls have a wider surface area, preventing Link from falling or passing through.

That sounds like it could work, but of course, we'd need to test whether or not there's something larger than Link that he can pass through in the game.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Most definitely not.

That's a white hot flame. That should be reaching 5,000 K (4,726.85°C) according to color temperature. Not only does Ridley make it ductile, he busts through at least 3.66 meters and this isn't the first time. My point was that Samus cannot withstand this temperature, either. Flames still harm her at a lower degree. The last time I checked, though, Dragotix's blue flame (the hottest flame) only does 70 damage on Samus before her varia and gravity features.

But then there is a weird thing - it doesn't deals too much damage to Samus. It deals somewhere around 1 energy tank of damage, probably less.

Anyway, I mentioned Samus has the wave beam, which passes through transparent and translucent things, according to the official site, the manual, the inventory screen and on-screen. The only exceptions were Ridley's barrier and the Queen Metroid. Maybe they're denser. That's one reason why x-rays cannot pass through lead.

Are you sure its not PLASMA beam? Wave beam doesn't passes through organic creatures. Plasma Beam does.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Point understood about Ridley's breath. Anyway...

Ridley's "fire breath" is actually plasma, much like the Plasma Beam. And Samus has superhuman agility, anyways; add on that she can use SenseMove to dodge any of Link's projectiles and fire a Charge Shot in response, and the Varia Suit's resistance to heat and the Fire Arrows become useless.

And if Samus can survive the dangerous planet Zebes for 11 years in a row, than she'll be more than capable of avoiding Link for several days, really.

There's a difference surviving 11 days on a dangerous planet and actively being hunted in an area 10 miles by 10 miles by someone with Link's vast arsenal of weapons and items. Like I said, I'm on the fence about it but I find it hard to believe Samus could avoid him for several days. Although to be correct, she could only stall for 3 since Magic Armor runs on Rupees and only loses them when hit, so she'd need to go on the offensive to drain him of his 250k rupees.

BTW @ Munomario777 I fixed my quotes if you feel lie resuming our argument .

 

[BaganSmashBros]

There's a difference surviving 11 days on a dangerous planet and actively being hunted in an area 10 miles by 10 miles by someone with Link's vast arsenal of weapons and items. Like I said, I'm on the fence about it but I find it hard to believe Samus could avoid him for several days. Although to be correct, she could only stall for 3 since Magic Armor runs on Rupees and only loses them when hit, so she'd need to go on the offensive to drain him of his 250k rupees.

11 YEARS, not days. And "dangerous planet" is an understatement when it pretty much is Australia if it was entire planet, except a lot worse. And i don't think he can keep track of her all of this time.

 

[Munomario777]

It should also be noted that in Ocarina of Time his Mirror Shield can absorb and reflect back Twinrova's fire and ice attacks.

Yes it should.

Magic Cape only appeared in ALttP where there were floor spikes. Link's intangible so they don't hurt him.

I see.

As I said below, no new abilities were gained by Star Rod, everything it could do was simply enchanced minus it's healing which gave more total HP but a smaller % of his overall health.

As I've said in the past, I prefer not to dwell on semantics, but I'll make this brief. "Ability" means "possession of the means or skill to do something." Before the Power Platform, the Star Rod did not possess the means to heal Bowser that amount. It then gained the ability to do so thanks to the Power Platform.

Plot-induced-stupidity. Sure this is the most extreme example, but we've seen cases where villains (and even heroes) had no reason not to use a weapon/item in their possession to gain victory.

Why do certain villains keep using an attack against you that allows them to be hurt when simply not using that attack would guarantee victory? Plot induced stupidity.

We shouldn't jump straight to plot-induced stupidity right away without first considering other possibilities.

His attacks are boosted (in terms of strength and side effects) thanks to Kammy's magic. He doesn't gain any new attacks.

Pre-Power Platform, Bowser doesn't use the Star Bolt in the fight. Post-Power Platform, he does.

Yes, which wasn't totally boosted. The original invincibility made him invulnerable to everything but the Star Beam and doubled his attack. The powered-up invincibility makes him invulnerable to everything but the Peach Beam but didn't triple or quadruple his attacks; the strength remains at only a bonus of times 2.

The invulnerability was boosted. I can't seem to find a source for the Star Rod Shield boosting his attack power while it's active, but I'll take your word for it.

Yes his attacks got stronger but I don't take that as evidence the Star Rod is somehow limited without a power source. Like I said earlier, the healing isn't really increased and the invincibility is only half way increased. The Star Rod's attacks are the only thing increased, and they received much less of an increase from Kammy's magic than Bowser himself.

Without the Power Platform, the attacks of the Star Rod are limited to dealing less damage. The Power Platform raises the amount that they can deal. If you have a hallway ten feet long and a flooring plank that is two feet long, and the other person has a hallway twenty feet long and a flooring plank that is three feet long, the three-foot plank is longer, even though it takes up a smaller percentage of the hallway. The protection is increased; the attack buff is a different aspect of the attack. The amount of the increase is irrelevant; that only speaks to the effectiveness of the Power Platform.

They only grant good wishes or wishes from good people. That's why Bowser stole the Star Rod, because they ignored his wishes.
I can't say that Stars never grant/never make wishes for themselves, but like I said, it's stated in games by stars themselves that their only purpose is to grant wishes of the Mushroom Kingdom. So if it does happen it's probably very rare. In fact at one point, a star says to Mario "I hope the Star Rod returns...ha! How odd is that? A star making a request for a wish when it's our job to deliver wishes."

Hmm, interesting. To me, it sounds like the star is saying that he hopes the Star Rod returns because he wants to request a wish, especially based on what he says afterwards.

My point about electricity is their is nothing you can see that Stars would need to wish for like food, sleep, water, or shelter.

Really? There's a building for shelter in this image, what appears to be water over here, and just because we haven't seen a star sleeping or eating doesn't mean they don't sleep or eat.

I don't remember this vote either...

Wouldn't need to, he'd have it equipped.

Yup.

I should point out that Rosalina isn't immune either. Mario shows the same "immunity" as her in the ending of SMG, yet he's still affected by the Luma black holes.

And I think I should point out that the only time Mario doesn't fall into a black hole is when he's near Rosalina (who also shows this trait). He appears to be affected by Rosalina's TK or something along those lines to prevent him (and her) from being pulled into the black hole.

Trick only lets him swap, so he'd just be giving a chain back.
And since Link's items are in Hyperspace I don't think Mewtwo can just use telekinesis to take them.

Very true, but I think you mean hammerspace.

@Nerdicon

You say Baton Kirby can just control her shield and make her explode but:
A) we have no proof it explodes from outside in
B) It's very possible it only controls the outside of barrier and wouldn't actually hurt Rosalina but would destroy her barrier
C) Since the Barrier is not attached to Rosalina, I don't see why she can't just dissolve the barrier.

All very valid points.

@ Munomario777

I think Nerdicon's point about the black hole is that Kirby would be immune to the damage of the black hole as long as he was invincible. As for why he gets the hypernova fruit, it's the same reason other characters are getting items the normally can't carry or likely wouldn't be able to carry. That being said, I think once he discards it once it should not be useable again.

While the Invincibility Candy might protect Kirby from getting ripped apart once he reached the center (even though it also OHKOs Mario with a Starman active, but whatever), since he's still affected by gravity while invincible, he would still get pulled in and couldn't escape. I agree on your points about Hypernova.

Also, fairies shouldn't count as outside help since they can go in the item section. The better question is would Link be better off using his bottles on something else.

Very true. I think a Fairy is a good thing to have, since it gives Link a second chance that can catch foes off guard.

I also agree with you on people here equating video game reaction with real world reaction. Just because a character dodges a lightning bolt/sound wave doesn't mean they have lightning/sound quick reactions. We're applying real world physics/logic to video games. It's more likely the enemy is just using something similar to lightning. Unless a character is stated or frequently shown to have reflexes to that level (like Sonic), I don't think we should assume said attacks move that fast anymore than we assume Mario is immune to fire because he can walk right by it without getting burnedd

Yup.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I was going to compare Link to Kitty Pryde earlier for an explanation as to why Link doesn't get harmed by spikes. My assumption was going to be that he could float. If you're going to assert that the latter is a game mechanic, you'll need to prove that instead of just asserting it. I can understand the part where SA-X can destroy walls and doors, but Samus' doesn't function that way. That at least is a reason. The former is scripted, the latter is game play. Link's ability to walk on spikes, but not pass through walls is not scripted, but both take place in game play.

It's likely a game mechanic because it would break the game if he could just walk through any wall or other solid terrain. I'm not necessarily claiming Link with Magic Cape can walk through walls or all solid objects like he should if his intangibility was on par with Kitty's.

BTW I found a video of him using it to get the Rod of Byrna and he could still lift this giant boulder while intangible and also attack Ganon (separate video), so apparently Link can control what he wants to interact
Also, since this is taking place on an otherwise empty field, what exactly is the purpose of this discussion?

11 YEARS, not days. And "dangerous planet" is an understatement when it pretty much is Australia if it was entire planet, except a lot worse. And i don't think he can keep track of her all of this time.

I've played Metroid, I'm aware of the planets she's been on. It's still not the same thing as avoiding Link on a MUCH smaller field. He can't catch her when she has Speed Booster but he can at least stay within sight of her by combining Bunny Ears and Pegaus boots. I also saw/remembered he can use the pegasus seed. I believe at minimum they double his running speed. I'm not good at math but I believe Dryn speculated earlier Link's boots could probably let him run 134mph. If the pegasus seed doubles that he could run at least 268mph. He couldn't catch Samus but he could stay within sight of her.

As I've said in the past, I prefer not to dwell on semantics, but I'll make this brief. "Ability" means "possession of the means or skill to do something." Before the Power Platform, the Star Rod did not possess the means to heal Bowser that amount. It then gained the ability to do so thanks to the Power Platform.

Like I said, the healing is actually less effective % wise so I don't agree if it's necessarily a boost. And I think there's a difference between gaining an ability and having enhanced abilities. It's not like (for example) Link's sword going from only cutting wood to suddenly cutting wood and metal. The Star Rod received minor enhancements of skills it already had. It's more like Kammy gave it a stat increase.

We shouldn't jump straight to plot-induced stupidity right away without first considering other possibilities.

Yes, but we also shouldn't look for the a complicated reason when their is a simple reason exists.

Pre-Power Platform, Bowser doesn't use the Star Bolt in the fight. Post-Power Platform, he does.

This just makes no sense. It clearly could do it pre-Power Platform. And we know it dealt damage because it hurt Mario and knocked him out of a window. He just didn't use it in battle. Are you implying moves performed in cutscene's don't count?

The invulnerability was boosted. I can't seem to find a source for the Star Rod Shield boosting his attack power while it's active, but I'll take your word for it.

Watch the video from this time on for like a minute.

Without the Power Platform, the attacks of the Star Rod are limited to dealing less damage. The Power Platform raises the amount that they can deal. If you have a hallway ten feet long and a flooring plank that is two feet long, and the other person has a hallway twenty feet long and a flooring plank that is three feet long, the three-foot plank is longer, even though it takes up a smaller percentage of the hallway. The protection is increased; the attack buff is a different aspect of the attack. The amount of the increase is irrelevant; that only speaks to the effectiveness of the Power Platform.

But it's all one motion. The invincibility acts like a status boost. The increase in strength comes with the invincibility, so if this "move" was boosted it makes no sense only half of it is boosted. None of his Star Rod moves were boosted enough to imply it now has enough power to do things it couldn't do before.

Hmm, interesting. To me, it sounds like the star is saying that he hopes the Star Rod returns because he wants to request a wish, especially based on what he says afterwards.

I don't know where you're getting that, sounds like he wants to deliever a wish. If he could have, he would have made a wish then for the Star Rod's return.

Really? There's a building for shelter in this image, what appears to be water over here, and just because we haven't seen a star sleeping or eating doesn't mean they don't sleep or eat.

I'm aware of those, but notice that none of them have anything in them to store food and the only one with a bed is in the Inn, which is clearly there for Mario (gameplay wise). And I'd argue the water's just for scenic purposes, like a fountain. I mean look at that picture with water, do you think the Star Spirits would be cool with them drinking that and leaving the star sanctuary's surrounding area bare? I'm not saying they don't drink water or sleep, but that's not something they'd need to request a wish for.

Very true, but I think you mean hammerspace.

My bad.

While the Invincibility Candy might protect Kirby from getting ripped apart once he reached the center (even though it also OHKOs Mario with a Starman active, but whatever), since he's still affected by gravity while invincible, he would still get pulled in and couldn't escape. I agree on your points about Hypernova.

Good point, Kirby_Dragons or Nerdicon would have to think of a counter to the comment about the black hole.

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Nerdicon , and those other guys with the ridley avatars, I've been thinking we should restart this thread. I feel like the sheer length of it, plus the fact we've (somewhat) changed the rules of how this operates intimidates/confuses people who would otherwise contribute to the thread. So I propose one of us restart it stating the rules and then making an initial tier list. Of course that would require us to agree on the rules (there are a few rules we don't), so we should just go with a majority since it's unlikely we'll all agree.
Also, for the tier list, we decide it by all of us voting the characters in order of strength (1 being the strongest, 32 being the weakest), based on who can beat the most people.
EDIT: I may not have been clear, so let me explain more:

We do it in a numbered format (although still in tiers) so we can more easily take the averages to make an accumulated initial tier list.
For example (only doing the top 20 characters, order based on my opinion):
S Tier
1)
2)
A Tier
3)
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12. Mewtwo
13.
B Tier
14.
15.
16.
17.
And so. Although it's probably be better to add tiers later after we all put our lists in order.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Nerdicon , and those other guys with the ridley avatars, I've been thinking we should restart this thread. I feel like the sheer length of it, plus the fact we've (somewhat) changed the rules of how this operates intimidates/confuses people who would otherwise contribute to the thread. So I propose one of us restart it stating the rules and then making an initial tier list. Of course that would require us to agree on the rules (there are a few rules we don't), so we should just go with a majority since it's unlikely we'll all agree.
Also, for the tier list, we decide it by all of us voting the characters in order of strength (1 being the strongest, 32 being the weakest), based on who can beat the most people.

Good idea.
BTW, i haven't seen Ganondorf mentioned at all here lately even though he is tougher than pretty much everyone from the cast...Is it just because we don't know how good he is at offence (outside of swordfighting and Dead Man's Volley)?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Good idea.
BTW, i haven't seen Ganondorf mentioned at all here lately even though he is tougher than pretty much everyone from the cast...Is it just because we don't know how good he is at offence (outside of swordfighting and Dead Man's Volley)?

I'm not sure what page you came on, but he's been discussed. Most tier lists have him placed between 3rd and 8th. He's never low than the middle of tier 2. I personally know his offense goes beyond sword fighting and dead man's volley. He also can wield a trident (as ganon), shoot lightning out of that trident, temporarily turn intangible and move briskly, shoot fire balls, summon fire keese, throw the trident like a boomerang...and probably a few other things I can't think of. We know he can also use powerful magic (he froze Zora's river in OoT, imprisoned Zelda in a small crystal barrier, etc) but most of that's used off screen so we can't speculate how it works. Or least I haven't.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I'm not sure what page you came on, but he's been discussed. Most tier lists have him placed between 3rd and 8th. He's never low than the middle of tier 2. I personally know his offense goes beyond sword fighting and dead man's volley. He also can wield a trident (as ganon), shoot lightning out of that trident, temporarily turn intangible and move briskly, shoot fire balls, summon fire keese, throw the trident like a boomerang...and probably a few other things I can't think of. We know he can also use powerful magic (he froze Zora's river in OoT, imprisoned Zelda in a small crystal barrier, etc) but most of that's used off screen so we can't speculate how it works. Or least I haven't.

Considering how many pages there are, very late. Oh well.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I can’t stand lurking this thread anymore, Munomario777 has misrepresented Shulk’s capabilities and no one has called him out on it! The thought of Monado shield being one time use or Shulk not being able to buff himself with Monado armor is ridiculous. How come no one has brought up all the shenanigans that shulk can do with light heal, armor, ether gems, skills and skill links? I’m ready to use assorted gameplay and cutscene feats to prove Shulk’s superiority over Sonic and Mario! Can I use GameFAQs mechanics guides and YouTube videos as evidence for feats and what exactly are the guidelines on spoilers?

Munomario777[/USER] , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Nerdicon , and those other guys with the ridley avatars, I've been thinking we should restart this thread. I feel like the sheer length of it, plus the fact we've (somewhat) changed the rules of how this operates intimidates/confuses people who would otherwise contribute to the thread. So I propose one of us restart it stating the rules and then making an initial tier list. Of course that would require us to agree on the rules (there are a few rules we don't), so we should just go with a majority since it's unlikely we'll all agree.
Also, for the tier list, we decide it by all of us voting the characters in order of strength (1 being the strongest, 32 being the weakest), based on who can beat the most people.

Agreed, a round-robin style tournament would give a far better account of each fighter due to characters not getting screwed over by Ganondorf, Sonic, or Shulk. I would also recommend considering King of the Hill style elements to discourage keep away nonsense. Should we expand it to also include assist trophies and stage boss(Ridley vs Metal Face anyone?) characters as they are also in Smash?

P.S. First time posting on a forum, let me know if i screw up!

 

[Munomario777]

It's likely a game mechanic because it would break the game if he could just walk through any wall or other solid terrain. I'm not necessarily claiming Link with Magic Cape can walk through walls or all solid objects like he should if his intangibility was on par with Kitty's.

Yeah, that seems likely.

BTW I found a video of him using it to get the Rod of Byrna and he could still lift this giant boulder while intangible and also attack Ganon (separate video), so apparently Link can control what he wants to interact
Also, since this is taking place on an otherwise empty field, what exactly is the purpose of this discussion?

Hmm, interesting. The Magic Cape's intangibility would be helpful for avoiding attacks by virtue of the fact that they would just pass through him.

I've played Metroid, I'm aware of the planets she's been on. It's still not the same thing as avoiding Link on a MUCH smaller field. He can't catch her when she has Speed Booster but he can at least stay within sight of her by combining Bunny Ears and Pegaus boots. I also saw/remembered he can use the pegasus seed. I believe at minimum they double his running speed. I'm not good at math but I believe Dryn speculated earlier Link's boots could probably let him run 134mph. If the pegasus seed doubles that he could run at least 268mph. He couldn't catch Samus but he could stay within sight of her.

Yeah, and since the Light Arrow is, well, made of light, it likely moves at the speed of light and could catch Samus (although this isn't directly stated in lore, so it could really go either way).

Like I said, the healing is actually less effective % wise so I don't agree if it's necessarily a boost. And I think there's a difference between gaining an ability and having enhanced abilities. It's not like (for example) Link's sword going from only cutting wood to suddenly cutting wood and metal. The Star Rod received minor enhancements of skills it already had. It's more like Kammy gave it a stat increase.

30 HP healed > 20 HP healed. If you pump 30 gallons of gasoline into a car with a 99 gallon tank, and pump 20 gallons into another car with a 50 gallon tank, the first car still has more gasoline pumped into it even though it's a smaller percentage of the tank.

As for the difference between gaining an ability and it being enhanced, Link's sword example is pretty much the same thing. Link's sword can now cut through metal, and Bowser's Star Rod barrier can now resist the regular Star Beam.

Yes, but we also shouldn't look for the a complicated reason when their is a simple reason exists.

Except in this case, the simple explanation should be used only when there's no other explanation. We should look for logical reasons before jumping to conclusions and saying that it's because it's just a game.

This just makes no sense. It clearly could do it pre-Power Platform. And we know it dealt damage because it hurt Mario and knocked him out of a window. He just didn't use it in battle. Are you implying moves performed in cutscene's don't count?

Except if I'm not mistaken, Mario has full health after that cutscene, meaning that the Star Bolt didn't actually deal any damage to him, so Bowser would have no reason to perform it in a final battle scenario (until it was powered up by the Power Platform).

Watch the video from this time on for like a minute.

I see. Does this carry over to the final boss as well?

But it's all one motion. The invincibility acts like a status boost. The increase in strength comes with the invincibility, so if this "move" was boosted it makes no sense only half of it is boosted. None of his Star Rod moves were boosted enough to imply it now has enough power to do things it couldn't do before.

By that logic, Hyper Sonic doesn't have more power than Super Sonic because he still hovers above the ground the same. Why should it matter how much the Star Rod's abilities are boosted? If they're boosted at all by a power source, then clearly their abilities are enhanced with more power.

I don't know where you're getting that, sounds like he wants to deliever a wish. If he could have, he would have made a wish then for the Star Rod's return.

He couldn't have made a wish for the Star Rod's return because the Star Rod he would use to make said wish is gone.

I'm aware of those, but notice that none of them have anything in them to store food and the only one with a bed is in the Inn, which is clearly there for Mario (gameplay wise). And I'd argue the water's just for scenic purposes, like a fountain. I mean look at that picture with water, do you think the Star Spirits would be cool with them drinking that and leaving the star sanctuary's surrounding area bare? I'm not saying they don't drink water or sleep, but that's not something they'd need to request a wish for.

Just because the star people don't wish for the essentials doesn't mean that wishing isn't integrated into their lives. Electricity isn't necessary for survival (as proven by the thousands of years we lived fine without it), but since we use it so often, the results of it being suddenly taken away (like Bowser stealing the Star Rod in Paper Mario) would be devastating.

Good point, Kirby_Dragons or Nerdicon would have to think of a counter to the comment about the black hole.

Yup.

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Nerdicon , and those other guys with the ridley avatars, I've been thinking we should restart this thread. I feel like the sheer length of it, plus the fact we've (somewhat) changed the rules of how this operates intimidates/confuses people who would otherwise contribute to the thread. So I propose one of us restart it stating the rules and then making an initial tier list. Of course that would require us to agree on the rules (there are a few rules we don't), so we should just go with a majority since it's unlikely we'll all agree.
Also, for the tier list, we decide it by all of us voting the characters in order of strength (1 being the strongest, 32 being the weakest), based on who can beat the most people.

Restart it as in, make a new topic? That could work, and having someone who's active in the discussion have the spot of OP would lead to much better organization. A tier list based on matchups would take a rather long time to do, since it's 50+ characters all facing off against 50+ other characters; I think a simple up or down voting system (like the community tier list thread) would suffice. We could also have other attractions, like doubles matchups, the bracket we've been using for a while now, miscellaneous matchups... the list goes on. I think it could work if a different person handled each one "event", so that A) no one person is swamped with management duties and B) there's a sense of distributed power and authority. Of course, we should wait to see what others think before we take action, but I like the idea.

I can’t stand lurking this thread anymore, Munomario777 has misrepresented Shulk’s capabilities and no one has called him out on it! The thought of Monado shield being one time use or Shulk not being able to buff himself with Monado armor is ridiculous. How come no one has brought up all the shenanigans that shulk can do with light heal, armor, ether gems, skills and skill links? I’m ready to use assorted gameplay and cutscene feats to prove Shulk’s superiority over Sonic and Mario! Can I use GameFAQs mechanics guides and YouTube videos as evidence for feats and what exactly are the guidelines on spoilers?

I never said that Monado Shield was one time use. I said that per use, it blocks one attack at either an equal or lower level. It has a cooldown time and can only block one attack per cooldown time, so it cannot simply be spammed. Monado Armour doesn't protect Shulk himself; it only protects his allies. Light Heal, again, has a cooldown time, and many foes could deliver enough attacks to take him out during the cooldown. I didn't include armor because A) I didn't really know much about it at the time and B) looking back on it now, it doesn't seem like it would make much of an impact; all armor seems to have pros and cons (i.e. speed is raised while defense is lowered). Gems don't add anything to Shulk's move pool, and wouldn't really affect the outcome. Likewise, Skill Trees (which I assume is what you mean when you refer to "skills") are minor stat buffs that don't really add anything to Shulk's arsenal. Skill Links serve only to link Shulk's skills with those of his allies, and allies aren't allowed in this fight.

As for using GameFAQs and YouTube for evidence, as long as there's proof in the games (such as if the video is of gameplay), it's fine. Spoilers aren't required to be warned about, but a

Spoiler

spoiler tag

can't hurt.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm actually liking the idea of restarting the thread. But only one thing:
NO GAMEPLAY MECHANICS.
Every other debating website takes away game mechanics, so we will too.
They're called gameplay mechanics. As in, they only apply during gameplay, and not in nerdy discussions about who would win in battles between Nintendo characters.
If it is agreeable that something is a game mechanic (limited use of something, health bars, etc.), we should remove it.

Also, I think certain cases of allies should be allowed. Like, there should be a forcefield over the arena that prevents outside help. But if an ally is summoned, or it's already inside something a character owns, or something like that, it should be allowed.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I never said that Monado Shield was one time use. I said that per use, it blocks one attack at either an equal or lower level. It has a cooldown time and can only block one attack per cooldown time, so it cannot simply be spammed.

None of The Monado Arts have cooldowns as they only require a full Talent Gauge. Said gauge can be filled through Auto-Attacks(20% per Hit), his arts Stream Edge(15% per hit) and Battle Soul(refills 52% of gauge for half of his current HP), and the 5th skill tree skill Glorious Future(Fully refills Talent Gauge after receiving a vision). Glorious Future is what allows him to spam Monado Arts like Monado Shield and Armor endlessly against powerful foes and is in a large part why he is in the running in the first place!

Monado Armour doesn't protect Shulk himself; it only protects his allies.

I can see why you made that mistake, as the XenobladeWiki says all allies instead of the whole Party. Monado Armor reduces all non-Talent Art damage by 75% for the entire party(Including Shulk). It is considered by far the most broken Art in the game(even more so with Glorious Future).

Chuggaaconroy describes it here:

Spoiler: Major Fallen Arm Spoilers

Youtube: Xenoblade Chronicles-Episode 69 Save the Machina! (26:50-28:22).

Light Heal, again, has a cooldown time, and many foes could deliver enough attacks to take him out during the cooldown.

Light Heal restores about 50% of his health and has a cooldown of only 18.3 Seconds(Cooldown can be reduced by a further 10%(Day) or 15%(Night) with Riki’s respective skill links).

Source: Gamefaqs Arts FAQ

I didn't include armor because A) I didn't really know much about it at the time and B) looking back on it now, it doesn't seem like it would make much of an impact; all armor seems to have pros and cons (i.e. speed is raised while defense is lowered).

Armor makes a massive Impact! Endgame armor is what allows you to turn a 2HKO into a 5HKO or a 10HKO into 1HP scratch damage. Shulk has the Equipment Master skill which allows him to reduce speed penalty by 5(effectively 5 more agility). Without Armor Shulk would collapse after only a few hits and he would lose out on 5 precious gem slots. Endgame armor should greatly reduce or entirely eliminate damage sustained from weaker Characters like Mario and Wii Fit Trainer.

Gems don't add anything to Shulk's move pool, and wouldn't really affect the outcome.

Ether Gems like Agility up(+50), Agility Down(reduces target’s agility by 25% for 20 Seconds on Auto-Attack Hit 30% of the time)Resist Debuff(provides Immunity to Status ailments and Instant Death), Topple and Daze resist are what make the Superbosses beatable. Even weak Gems like Slow(reduces auto-attack rate and mobility substantially), Bind(renders victim immobile), and Spike(inflicts damage on attacker for every hit landed on Shulk) can make Mario and Sonic think twice about charging in. Quick Step boosts shulk’s already impressive running speed by 25% allowing him to chase down most of the roster and to rapidly close the distance with projectile spammers.

Ether Gems:xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Gem

Likewise, Skill Trees (which I assume is what you mean when you refer to "skills") are minor stat buffs that don't really add anything to Shulk's arsenal.

Skill Trees allow for the learning of Skills(such as Glorious Future)in addition to the aforementioned bonus(which increases with each skill learned in said tree). Skills greatly improve the potency of said arsenal.

Source: Gamefaqs Skills FAQ

Skill Links serve only to link Shulk's skills with those of his allies, and allies aren't allowed in this fight.

Skill Links can be changed even when Shulk is separated from the other part members so he will be able to use them here.

Proof that shulk can use his comrades' skills when they aren't around:

Spoiler: Major Fallen Arm Spoilers

Youtube Xenoblade Chronicles-Episode 54: Dream of the shore near another world (11:45-11:50) Shulk and Fiora have been separated from the rest of the party(13:49-14:47) but Fiora can still link their skills.

Between Monado Shield and Armor spam, excellent armor, Light Heal, perfect rank VI gems, skills and skill links Shulk should be able to outlast the vast majority of the Smash cast. Shall I post my recommended loadout for Shulk?

I regret that I can't post Links because I need to have 10 posts for that privilege.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Can I use GameFAQs mechanics guides and YouTube videos as evidence for feats and what exactly are the guidelines on spoilers?

Yes you can use those as long as they're credible, just know if you plan on using something like Game Theory that it's just an opinion that can be wrong. And unless someone specifically asks not to post something do to spoilers, spoiler tags aren't necessary.

Also not sure what you mean by King of the Hill or round robin tournament. I now what the latter is, but not what you mean in this case.
And due to the sheer complexity and length of ranking 50 characters (well 49 since no one but Kirby Dragons is ranking Miis), we could do a fun side ranking of stages bosses and assist trophies later on, but let's not add them to the main tier list. But there's nothing stopping you from making a tier list that includes them,.

Considering how many pages there are, very late. Oh well.

If there's something you want to say on him you can. But there was just a tier list a few pages ago.

Hmm, interesting. The Magic Cape's intangibility would be helpful for avoiding attacks by virtue of the fact that they would just pass through him.

I meant why is there a discussion if it can go through walls and stuff? Doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.

Yeah, and since the Light Arrow is, well, made of light, it likely moves at the speed of light and could catch Samus (although this isn't directly stated in lore, so it could really go either way).

It also might able to paralyze or pierce her invincibility temporarily. But I do think it moves faster than other arrows.

As for the difference between gaining an ability and it being enhanced, Link's sword example is pretty much the same thing. Link's sword can now cut through metal, and Bowser's Star Rod barrier can now resist the regular Star Beam.

But it can't resist the enhanced star beam (the Peach Beam). A better way to look at it is Bowser's invincibility was only able to be canceled by the Star Beam because they had equal amounts of power. Kammy's device increased the power of the Star Rod's invincibility to be greater than the strength of the Star Beam, requiring the prayers of Peach and the Mushroom kingdom to put them back on a level playing field again.

Except in this case, the simple explanation should be used only when there's no other explanation. We should look for logical reasons before jumping to conclusions and saying that it's because it's just a game.

Except it's plot-induced stupidity (rule of drama, plot armor, etc) IS a logical conclusion and also the simple conclusion in this case. For example, how many times in a Sonic game has Sonic been unquestionably fast enough to catch or reach something before a villain (or reach said villain) but plot induced stupidity causes him to just sit there or run at a slow speed so that he can't get where he needs to on time?

Except if I'm not mistaken, Mario has full health after that cutscene, meaning that the Star Bolt didn't actually deal any damage to him, so Bowser would have no reason to perform it in a final battle scenario (until it was powered up by the Power Platform).

That's because the star rods recovered his health and he rested in an Inn after the bolt hit him.

I see. Does this carry over to the final boss as well?

Yes, but it stays the same strength upgrade for all battles with Bowser even when he's powered up for the power platform and all of his other star rod related abilities are enhanced.

By that logic, Hyper Sonic doesn't have more power than Super Sonic because he still hovers above the ground the same. Why should it matter how much the Star Rod's abilities are boosted? If they're boosted at all by a power source, then clearly their abilities are enhanced with more power.

Well Hyper Sonic isn't a good example since he actually can do many new things that Super Sonic can't, unlike the boosted Star Rod, which only displays slight enhancements of pre-Platform Star Rod. Super Sonic to Hyper Sonic clearly gains enhancements AND abilities. That's clearly an example of a power source (the master emerald) boosting the powers and abilities of Super Sonic via the Super Emeralds.

As for why should it matter how they're boosted if they are boosted, let me put it like this: let's say there was a trainer with Level 46 Shelgon (that's a Dragon pokemon) in an area full of level 46 pokemon. Said Shelgon was given a boost (a Rare Candy) to enhance its power (raise it's level) the same way Kammy's magic boosted the Star Rod. Now it's level 47, but even though it's slightly stronger in some areas, it wasn't enough more that it gained any new moves or abilities and you can see in battle it's enhancements (stat increases) aren't enough to change the difficulty of the area (compared to if it was boosted 10 levels at once). (in Shelgon's case abilities would be when it eventually turns into a Salamance and gains the ability to fly.)

He couldn't have made a wish for the Star Rod's return because the Star Rod he would use to make said wish is gone.

This isn't really relevant to either our cases so I'm ignoring this.

Just because the star people don't wish for the essentials doesn't mean that wishing isn't integrated into their lives. Electricity isn't necessary for survival (as proven by the thousands of years we lived fine without it), but since we use it so often, the results of it being suddenly taken away (like Bowser stealing the Star Rod in Paper Mario) would be devastating.

It is integrated into their lives; they can't do their jobs (which is the only thing they talk about, unlike every other race) without it. Electricity was just an example of a feature in daily life they don't use/have.

Restart it as in, make a new topic? That could work, and having someone who's active in the discussion have the spot of OP would lead to much better organization. A tier list based on matchups would take a rather long time to do, since it's 50+ characters all facing off against 50+ other characters; I think a simple up or down voting system (like the community tier list thread) would suffice. We could also have other attractions, like doubles matchups, the bracket we've been using for a while now, miscellaneous matchups... the list goes on. I think it could work if a different person handled each one "event", so that A) no one person is swamped with management duties and B) there's a sense of distributed power and authority. Of course, we should wait to see what others think before we take action, but I like the idea.

Yes start a new thread. So far I have 4 yes votes and no "no"s.And you misunderstood (more accurately, I think I misspoke) my point about the tier list; you're link is exactly what I'm proposing we do. I just think rather than list it like that, we do it in a numbered format (although still in tiers) so we can more easily take the averages to make an accumulated initial tier list.
For example (only doing the top 20 characters, order based on my opinion:
S Tier
1)
2)
A Tier
3)
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12. Mewtwo
13.
B Tier
14.
15.
16.
17.
And so. Although it's probably be better to add tiers later after we all put our lists in order.

I'm actually liking the idea of restarting the thread. But only one thing:
NO GAMEPLAY MECHANICS.
Every other debating website takes away game mechanics, so we will too.
They're called gameplay mechanics. As in, they only apply during gameplay, and not in nerdy discussions about who would win in battles between Nintendo characters.
If it is agreeable that something is a game mechanic (limited use of something, health bars, etc.), we should remove it.

Also, I think certain cases of allies should be allowed. Like, there should be a forcefield over the arena that prevents outside help. But if an ally is summoned, or it's already inside something a character owns, or something like that, it should be allowed.

Another yes vote!
And what gameplay mechanics are we not ignoring?

And isn't your ally rule what we're already doing? We allow allies that are "owned" (ex: Pixls from Super Paper Mario.)
Well no, I guess we don't allow certain summoned allies. I'd be in favor of allowing summoned allies as long as A) it's not using teleportation to physically go get the ally to help them or B) they're not calling a separate entity(s) for help. So if Sora was a character, he could use summons (temporarily bring Disney characters to help him in some way) but Star Fox can't call for back-up in his arwing. I guess Palutena's Centurions count since I believe she can actually summon them like Rosalina does Luma but truthfully I'm not sure.

Between Monado Shield and Armor spam, excellent armor, Light Heal, perfect rank VI gems, skills and skill links Shulk should be able to outlast the vast majority of the Smash cast. Shall I post my recommended loadout for Shulk?

Good post on Shulk, just want to say we generally stay away from items (in shulk's case, gems or armor) that increase stats since all these characters have varying stats from different systems (i.e. who knows how Robin's evasion of 115 interacts with Thunder's 70% accuracy?), unless said stat increase has a significant increase on the characters style. For example, normally skill maxes out around 40. However the limit breaker skill makes it so it maxes out around 50. Since many of her skills activation rate = skill stat, this means with skill of 50 she is practically guaranteed to have certain skills activate every other attack.

And go ahead with Shulk's loadout; I recommend a lvl 6 Double attack, Haste and Topple Plus for his 3 weapons slots so he can use auto attacks quicker to refill his Talent Gauge and keep foes down for longer.

 

[Crystanium]

True, but seeing as how she is damaged by a small one, a large one would likely deal more damage to her. I dunno though, just speculating here.

Well, trying to figure out how to rearrange the Schwarzschild radius, I managed to find the gravity produced by the black hole created by Nightmare. I tinkered with this formula using 10 kilograms as my example and rearranged it enough times until I ended up with 10 kg. The formula for Schwarzschild radius is r = 2GM/c^2. Rearranged to find the mass, it's M = cr^2 / G. I must use c because that is what I used in order to return to 10 kg. for my example when trying to accurately rearrange the formula.

Samus is 112 pixels tall. The black hole is 362 px., or 323% taller than Samus. Samus stands at 1.9 meters, meaning the black hole's diameter is 6.14 m. (20.15 ft.). The radius would be 3.070535714285714245 m. This would give the black hole a mass of 4.24 * 10^19 kg. Next, using F = Gm1m2/r^2, we can find the gravitational force exerted on Samus'. The distance between Samus and the black hole can also be presumed 3.070535714285714245 m., since that would be the distance between Samus and the center of the black hole. This results in a force of 2.701 * 10^10 newtons.

Extrapolation is extending evidence beyond what it is. The evidence is the lore saying that Link takes "no damage from electrical attacks".

The blue holy ring says, "No damage from River Zora's fireball." Does this mean only fireballs from the river Zoras? After all, falling into lava harms Link with the ring on. It makes no sense if he'll receive damage from 700 centigrade, while the fireball would be a higher temperature.

Why would holding it beside him not work, then?

I'm not saying it wouldn't. I said if Link has it extended out, then there is that possibility, assuming Link knows that'll happen in the first place.

Hm. Do you have an explanation for why that is, out of curiosity?

They're two different items. Think of it this way. Say the magic armor protects Link from 1 megajoule of damage, but Link has another item that protects Link from 1 kilojoule of damage. It doesn't add as 1,001,000 joules. The magic armor can already protect Link from 1 kJ because it's less than 1 MJ. So it is with the magic armor and blue holy ring.

Samus' situation is different. Her armor is modular in nature and is known to stack its effects. The varia suit protects Samus from damage by 50%. The gravity suit adds an additional 25% damage reduction so that she's reducing damage by 75%. Her armor essentially does the 1 MJ + 1 kJ. Link's doesn't. It's not known to do this. Rather, what Link acquires, he seems to discard the lesser gear.

What about ten bombs, then?

I'm not sure what the yield is for one bomb. If I had the yield for one, I could multiply that by ten. Here's what a super missile looks like when it explodes.

Here's how it looks in first-person.

Hmm. That seems more like invisibility than the intangibility of the Magic Cape.

Chozo ghosts don't turn invisible. They simply phase in and out of existence. One might perceive that as turning invisible, but they don't turn invisible. To put it another way, if I could travel at light speed, you would perceive this as turning invisible or simply vanishing when in reality, I just ran too fast for you to perceive me travel light speed, since you don't react to things on a nanosecond level.

Flickerbats, shadow pirates, the Omega Pirate, Metroid Prime, Dark Samus can render themselves invisible, which can be detected by thermal, x-ray, or sonic imaging. They become invisible to the truest sense of the word.

Seeing as how Dark Samus spent about five seconds shooting everyone else in the room (not to mention her grand opening and the time she takes aiming at Samus), dodging the blast is more common sense than reacting to high-speed objects the way I see it.

Point a firearm at me for about five seconds and tell me to dodge a bullet after it's left the chamber.

I see. The Game Theory episode I brought up earlier found that the Hookshot (or rather, the Longshot)'s chain reaches about 65 feet, or around 20 meters.

I don't know which hookshot we're using, but that's fine.

Okay, so I went to Dragon Roost Cavern and jumped from the top of the dungeon all the way down to the lower rope bridge (my original plan was to jump off of the mountain itself, but the top is a different area with a bottomless pit so you can't fall all the way down to sea level), and Link only took a quarter of a heart of damage. I also learned that falling into lava has the same effect (I learned that one the hard way... multiple times...).

That indicates Link will receive damage. I think we're better off looking at the moments where Link falls down in cut-scenes in OoT/MM

Rosalina can get hit by an attack in 3D World and not flinch; rather, she will keep on running, jumping, or whatever she was doing before without an interruption (besides the gameplay mechanic of time freezing when a character gets hit/powers up).

She's a robot. Robolina.

Are you sure its not PLASMA beam? Wave beam doesn't passes through organic creatures. Plasma Beam does.

Samus has the plasma beam stacked with the power, diffusion, ice, and wave beam by the time she fights Ridley and the Queen Metroid.

It's likely a game mechanic because it would break the game if he could just walk through any wall or other solid terrain. I'm not necessarily claiming Link with Magic Cape can walk through walls or all solid objects like he should if his intangibility was on par with Kitty's.

BTW I found a video of him using it to get the Rod of Byrna and he could still lift this giant boulder while intangible and also attack Ganon (separate video), so apparently Link can control what he wants to interact
Also, since this is taking place on an otherwise empty field, what exactly is the purpose of this discussion?

That is a good point, to be honest. How will this resolve the fact Samus can harm the Chozo ghosts as long as she can see them in spite of their ability to phase out of existence?

While this empty field lacks walls, the purpose of questioning Link's ability to walk through walls was more directed to see how intangible Link actually is.

I've played Metroid, I'm aware of the planets she's been on. It's still not the same thing as avoiding Link on a MUCH smaller field. He can't catch her when she has Speed Booster but he can at least stay within sight of her by combining Bunny Ears and Pegaus boots. I also saw/remembered he can use the pegasus seed. I believe at minimum they double his running speed. I'm not good at math but I believe Dryn speculated earlier Link's boots could probably let him run 134mph. If the pegasus seed doubles that he could run at least 268mph. He couldn't catch Samus but he could stay within sight of her.

I wasn't sure if the Pegasus seeds would add any more speed, but if you want, what we could do is use the speed from the Pegasus boots from my calculation. That would grant Link 212.47 mi/h.

BTW, @ Munomario777 , @Dryn , @ Kirby Dragons , @Nerdicon , and those other guys with the ridley avatars, I've been thinking we should restart this thread. I feel like the sheer length of it, plus the fact we've (somewhat) changed the rules of how this operates intimidates/confuses people who would otherwise contribute to the thread. So I propose one of us restart it stating the rules and then making an initial tier list. Of course that would require us to agree on the rules (there are a few rules we don't), so we should just go with a majority since it's unlikely we'll all agree.
Also, for the tier list, we decide it by all of us voting the characters in order of strength (1 being the strongest, 32 being the weakest), based on who can beat the most people.

I'd be fine with that, honestly. Sure, we're pages ahead, but I think it'd be worth doing. I've already offered my match-up list pages ago on who versus who. I'm also curious as to whether or not we're using composite forms for everyone, or if it's just for Link. My idea of tier lists might be limited, only because there are a few characters whom I am not quite familiar with.

I'm actually liking the idea of restarting the thread. But only one thing:
NO GAMEPLAY MECHANICS.
Every other debating website takes away game mechanics, so we will too.
They're called gameplay mechanics. As in, they only apply during gameplay, and not in nerdy discussions about who would win in battles between Nintendo characters.
If it is agreeable that something is a game mechanic (limited use of something, health bars, etc.), we should remove it.

Also, I think certain cases of allies should be allowed. Like, there should be a forcefield over the arena that prevents outside help. But if an ally is summoned, or it's already inside something a character owns, or something like that, it should be allowed.

You may know my thoughts on game play mechanics. I keep the essence of what it's supposed to represent, while removing the mechanic itself entirely. I agree with summons. Summons really have no will of their own, even if they might have their own personality. For example, it'd be permissible for Ghirahim to summon moblins on the field because he's capable of doing that. Then again, he might just be calling upon those of the demon tribe, so that might be equivalent to Samus calling for help from the Federation.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

If there's something you want to say on him you can. But there was just a tier list a few pages ago.

Yes, i actually wanted to say something. Everyone knows about his immunity thing, right? But here is a thing - in OoT, after getting stabbed with the Master Sword right in the head, he still survives for god knows how many years and that was after a lot of beating too. In TP and WW, he died only after Triforce of Power abandoned him (in case of WW, it was done to reunite all pieces while in TP). Perhaps in TP, it disappeared because he was dieing, but then here is a question - how could he stand up just fine after getting impaled through that wound and getting sliced with Master Sword in the same place? I doubt he would just stand up after such fight and he was impaled while lying down on the back, so, he would require extra effort to stand up. But then there are games like original LoZ (where he was killed with Silver Arrows) and aLttP (same thing again).

Samus has the plasma beam stacked with the power, diffusion, ice, and wave beam by the time she fights Ridley and the Queen Metroid.

Then just say so. You named only one of the beams stacked, so, i thought of it as of mistake.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Oh wow, people actually agree with my suggestions.
@ ShadowLBlue We'd keep the things that Muno believes are game mechanics, such as power-ups, jumping, etc.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, i actually wanted to say something. Everyone knows about his immunity thing, right? But here is a thing - in OoT, after getting stabbed with the Master Sword right in the head, he still survives for god knows how many years and that was after a lot of beating too. In TP and WW, he died only after Triforce of Power abandoned him (in case of WW, it was done to reunite all pieces while in TP). Perhaps in TP, it disappeared because he was dieing, but then here is a question - how could he stand up just fine after getting impaled through that wound and getting sliced with Master Sword in the same place? I doubt he would just stand up after such fight and he was impaled while lying down on the back, so, he would require extra effort to stand up. But then there are games like original LoZ (where he was killed with Silver Arrows) and aLttP (same thing again).

I've been through the whole discussion on Ganondorf's invulnerability, but I dropped it because it wasn't getting anywhere. Ganondorf is that male born every century. According to Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf is a human. As his heart grows darker, he becomes a demon, and not one as a cruel, evil, or destructive person, though he is. Rather, he becomes a demon likely by the curse of Demise's hatred, who is reincarnated. Children who get lost in the Lost Woods become skull children and adults become stalfos', so it shouldn't seem strange for Ganondorf to become a demon.

With the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf's abilities are enhanced, though no one knows by how much. He does obtain immortality and it seems his strength is also enhanced as he can break free from the manacles he was once bound by. His sorcery is also enhanced, but again, to what degree is unknown. Ganondorf can be harmed by the anti-demon sword known as the master sword. This is where Munomario777 and I disagree, though. He's under the impression that only that weapon can harm Ganondorf. I personally feel that the master sword is the most effective way of killing Ganondorf, but not the only way.

I liken (ha, lycan) this to a werewolf being shot with a silver bullet. It's the most effective way, but come on, is it really the only way? Same with vampires and the two effective methods being decapitation or a stake to the heart. Silver arrows have no known power to repel evil. This is an assumption based on the fact that the old man says about arrows, "Secret power is said to be in the arrow." This secret power is referring to the ability to produce noise, which Pols Voice hates, not the power to repel evil, which this quote isn't even referring to. It's also a translation done by the NoA, not the actual Japanese.

So there you have it. Maybe you have some input of your own. Now if anyone is wishing to start this whole thread over, I must ask again: are we using composite forms for all characters?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I've been through the whole discussion on Ganondorf's invulnerability, but I dropped it because it wasn't getting anywhere. Ganondorf is that male born every century. According to Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf is a human. As his heart grows darker, he becomes a demon, and not one as a cruel, evil, or destructive person, though he is. Rather, he becomes a demon likely by the curse of Demise's hatred, who is reincarnated. Children who get lost in the Lost Woods become skull children and adults become stalfos', so it shouldn't seem strange for Ganondorf to become a demon.

With the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf's abilities are enhanced, though no one knows by how much. He does obtain immortality and it seems his strength is also enhanced as he can break free from the manacles he was once bound by. His sorcery is also enhanced, but again, to what degree is unknown. Ganondorf can be harmed by the anti-demon sword known as the master sword. This is where Munomario777 and I disagree, though. He's under the impression that only that weapon can harm Ganondorf. I personally feel that the master sword is the most effective way of killing Ganondorf, but not the only way.

I liken (ha, lycan) this to a werewolf being shot with a silver bullet. It's the most effective way, but come on, is it really the only way? Same with vampires and the two effective methods being decapitation or a stake to the heart. Silver arrows have no known power to repel evil. This is an assumption based on the fact that the old man says about arrows, "Secret power is said to be in the arrow." This secret power is referring to the ability to produce noise, which Pols Voice hates, not the power to repel evil, which this quote isn't even referring to. It's also a translation done by the NoA, not the actual Japanese.

So there you have it. Maybe you have some input of your own. Now if anyone is wishing to start this whole thread over, I must ask again: are we using composite forms for all characters?

But then again, master sword doesn't seems to actually kill him in OoT even though it should be fatal to get a sword through your head and that is after a lot of beating. And i don't think its a good idea to trust most of the stuff the old man says (thanks to the early Nintendo translation) since, well, dodongos dislike bombs instead of smoke and "EASTMOST PENINSULA IS THE SECRET". So, maybe they can repel evil. But since this has been argued with already, that doesn't matters much i guess.

Anyway, if we're using composite forms of characters, then what to do with all of those Links and Zeldas? Or it doesn't matters that they always are different persons that act as original Link and Zelda's reincarnations in all games outside of direct sequels like Zelda 2? And what to do with Samus' ridicolous defense boost with that last suit upgrade in Metroid Fusion, differences in Metroid Prime and other versions of beams like MP Wave Beam, Other M Wave Beam and Super Metroid Wave Beam?

 

[Munomario777]

I'm actually liking the idea of restarting the thread. But only one thing:
NO GAMEPLAY MECHANICS.
Every other debating website takes away game mechanics, so we will too.
They're called gameplay mechanics. As in, they only apply during gameplay, and not in nerdy discussions about who would win in battles between Nintendo characters.
If it is agreeable that something is a game mechanic (limited use of something, health bars, etc.), we should remove it.

Also, I think certain cases of allies should be allowed. Like, there should be a forcefield over the arena that prevents outside help. But if an ally is summoned, or it's already inside something a character owns, or something like that, it should be allowed.

I'll get into what I think we should allow further down, but I agree with most of what you're saying here.

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0

Okay, since it seems that you're the Xenoblade buff around here, make your optimal equipment and such list for Shulk and we'll see how it stacks up against the rest of the cast.

I meant why is there a discussion if it can go through walls and stuff? Doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.

Ah. As Dryn said, it's mainly to see to what extent the intangibility goes.

It also might able to paralyze or pierce her invincibility temporarily. But I do think it moves faster than other arrows.

Actually, the stunning is only on Ganondorf IIRC; it's very powerful, so it OHKOs most enemies in the game.

But it can't resist the enhanced star beam (the Peach Beam). A better way to look at it is Bowser's invincibility was only able to be canceled by the Star Beam because they had equal amounts of power. Kammy's device increased the power of the Star Rod's invincibility to be greater than the strength of the Star Beam, requiring the prayers of Peach and the Mushroom kingdom to put them back on a level playing field again.

And Link's sword can't cut through enemy armor still. I'll get into the comparisons between the examples later, but for now I'll say that they're rather similar when you dissect them.

Except it's plot-induced stupidity (rule of drama, plot armor, etc) IS a logical conclusion and also the simple conclusion in this case. For example, how many times in a Sonic game has Sonic been unquestionably fast enough to catch or reach something before a villain (or reach said villain) but plot induced stupidity causes him to just sit there or run at a slow speed so that he can't get where he needs to on time?

P-i-s might be a logical conclusion from outside the game, but in-universe, it makes no sense. We should aim for something that makes sense from both perspectives before we go to the last resort of "because game".

That's because the star rods recovered his health and he rested in an Inn after the bolt hit him.

I see.

Yes, but it stays the same strength upgrade for all battles with Bowser even when he's powered up for the power platform and all of his other star rod related abilities are enhanced.

And why should we ignore the other upgrades because of this?

Well Hyper Sonic isn't a good example since he actually can do many new things that Super Sonic can't, unlike the boosted Star Rod, which only displays slight enhancements of pre-Platform Star Rod. Super Sonic to Hyper Sonic clearly gains enhancements AND abilities. That's clearly an example of a power source (the master emerald) boosting the powers and abilities of Super Sonic via the Super Emeralds.

I'll dissect the boosts from Hyper Sonic and the Power Platform to best convey my points.
Hyper Sonic

• Some of the stats are increased (speed, jump height, etc.)
• The invincibility is improved (he can't drown anymore)
• However, one aspect of the invincibility isn't improved (the touch damage he deals to enemies isn't increased)
• He gains a new attack (the double jump screen nuke)
• There's an obvious power source (Super Emeralds > Chaos Emeralds)

Power Platform

• Some of the stats are increased (attack and the like)
• The invincibility is improved (the Star Beam cannot remove it anymore)
• However, one aspect of the invincibility isn't improved (the attack power increase remains the same)
• He gains a new attack (the Star Bolt; while it was in the intro, he didn't use it pre-Power Platform)
• There's an obvious power source (it's called the Power Platform)

See the similarities?

As for why should it matter how they're boosted if they are boosted, let me put it like this: let's say there was a trainer with Level 46 Shelgon (that's a Dragon pokemon) in an area full of level 46 pokemon. Said Shelgon was given a boost (a Rare Candy) to enhance its power (raise it's level) the same way Kammy's magic boosted the Star Rod. Now it's level 47, but even though it's slightly stronger in some areas, it wasn't enough more that it gained any new moves or abilities and you can see in battle it's enhancements (stat increases) aren't enough to change the difficulty of the area (compared to if it was boosted 10 levels at once). (in Shelgon's case abilities would be when it eventually turns into a Salamance and gains the ability to fly.)

The Pokemon is level 47 instead of 46, and is more powerful. The Star Rod has a Power Platform, and is more powerful. I don't see your point here.

This isn't really relevant to either our cases so I'm ignoring this.

M'kay.

It is integrated into their lives; they can't do their jobs (which is the only thing they talk about, unlike every other race) without it. Electricity was just an example of a feature in daily life they don't use/have.

Do the Star Spirits rely on the Star Rod to grant wishes?

Yes start a new thread. So far I have 4 yes votes and no "no"s.And you misunderstood (more accurately, I think I misspoke) my point about the tier list; you're link is exactly what I'm proposing we do. I just think rather than list it like that, we do it in a numbered format (although still in tiers) so we can more easily take the averages to make an accumulated initial tier list.
For example (only doing the top 20 characters, order based on my opinion:
S Tier
1)
2)
A Tier
3)
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12. Mewtwo
13.
B Tier
14.
15.
16.
17.
And so. Although it's probably be better to add tiers later after we all put our lists in order.

I think it would be best to include the bracket, the tiers, and everything else honestly, rather than just a tier list.

Anyway, I'll start talking about a ruleset for matchups and such. So, one of the things I think we should avoid is debating about the ruleset in the middle of character matchups. For instance, what counts as a gameplay mechanic, or what counts as an ally. To do this, we need a few things.

1) UNITY
We need to all agree on a unified ruleset, and that should be the standard used for all matchups. No separate rulesets for separate characters or anything; just one that applies to everyone.

2) CLARIFICATION
We need to clarify what we mean in the rules, to avoid discussions about, say, what counts as a gameplay mechanic. For this to happen, we need to define, define, define. For instance:

NO GAMEPLAY MECHANICS
A gameplay mechanic is an aspect of the game that is purely a result of that game's style and way of doing things. For instance, things such as invincibility frames are game mechanics, while Mario jumping is not.

3) INCLUSION
We need to include everything in the rules. Leave no stone unturned, no corner unchecked, no aspect uncovered, because it'll come up eventually.

4) OPEN-MINDEDNESS
We need to be able to adapt the rules to suit recent findings. There should be a vote from each active member, and whichever option gets more votes should be used.

With that said, here's my idea of a potential ruleset:

Spoiler: Ruleset

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses. In the case of a tie, the winner is decided on who has the advantage. (Note that this does not mean who caused the tie to happen, but rather who is better off. For instance, if Rosalina creates a black hole and Kirby uses his Stone form to protect himself from being ripped apart, but was still pulled into the center, Rosalina has the upper hand since Kirby is currently inside a black hole and cannot escape.)
• No ally assistance is allowed here. An ally is defined as another character, object, etc. that can function independently from that character. For instance, Mario doesn't get Yoshi (he can do things without Mario on him), but Sonic gets the Wisps (they are only useful when Sonic fuses with them to use their Color Powers).
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items. Characters may only bring what they can carry; for instance, Mario may bring a Mushroom (since he can carry them in his games) and Sonic gets the Wisps (since he can hold the Black Bomb Wisp in Lost World, and we're extending it to all Wisps), but he doesn't get to use the Springs since he cannot carry them around.
• One-ups, respawns, and such are not counted here. This also goes for things like Bowser coming back all the time after falling in lava; if it means defeat in their game, it means defeat here. Fairies from Zelda and such are different because they seamlessly revive Link on the spot.
• Game mechanics are not taken into account here. A gameplay mechanic is an aspect of the game that is purely a result of that game's style and way of doing things, and does not indicate the character's abilities. For instance, things such as invincibility frames are game mechanics, while Mario jumping is not.
• There is no teleportation out of the arena (combatants can teleport around the arena, however), and if a character is otherwise absent from the arena for at least ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character owns are compiled for the matchups. However, if a character just happens to have used an item belonging to someone else (such as when Pit uses Palutena's Powers in Kid Icarus, which would violate both this rule and the no allies rule), it is not allowed. This also means that all characters have a "composite" form. So Link gets items from Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword, and everything else, and the same goes for all characters. Characters can also switch weapons and such on the fly; for instance, Pit can use the Palutena Bow and then the Upperdash Arm and everything else, even though he only uses one per battle in Uprising.

Of course, this isn't meant to be the definitive ruleset, and there should be lots of discussion before anything is finalized.

I also suggest that we pause any discussions about character matchups while we're organizing this whole thing, to keep the focus on the new thread.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Anyway, I'll start talking about a ruleset for matchups and such. So, one of the things I think we should avoid is debating about the ruleset in the middle of character matchups. For instance, what counts as a gameplay mechanic, or what counts as an ally. To do this, we need a few things.

1) UNITY
We need to all agree on a unified ruleset, and that should be the standard used for all matchups. No separate rulesets for separate characters or anything; just one that applies to everyone.

2) CLARIFICATION
We need to clarify what we mean in the rules, to avoid discussions about, say, what counts as a gameplay mechanic. For this to happen, we need to define, define, define. For instance:


3) INCLUSION
We need to include everything in the rules. Leave no stone unturned, no corner unchecked, no aspect uncovered, because it'll come up eventually.

4) OPEN-MINDEDNESS
We need to be able to adapt the rules to suit recent findings. There should be a vote from each active member, and whichever option gets more votes should be used.

With that said, here's my idea of a potential ruleset:

Spoiler: Ruleset

• The battlefield is a ten-mile-wide square arena, with a solid concrete floor and infinitely thick solid steel walls, as well as a solid concrete ceiling ten miles up; nothing comes in, nothing comes out. There are no ties; the battle goes on until someone loses. In the case of a tie, the winner is decided on who has the advantage. (Note that this does not mean who caused the tie to happen, but rather who is better off. For instance, if Rosalina creates a black hole and Kirby uses his Stone form to protect himself from being ripped apart, but was still pulled into the center, Rosalina has the upper hand since Kirby is currently inside a black hole and cannot escape.)
• No ally assistance is allowed here. An ally is defined as another character, object, etc. that can function independently from that character. For instance, Mario doesn't get Yoshi (he can do things without Mario on him), but Sonic gets the Wisps (they are only useful when Sonic fuses with them to use their Color Powers).
• Any ammo/use count/etc. that applies in the source game applies here, and each character gets a full stock of one-use items. Characters may only bring what they can carry; for instance, Mario may bring a Mushroom (since he can carry them in his games) and Sonic gets the Wisps (since he can hold the Black Bomb Wisp in Lost World, and we're extending it to all Wisps), but he doesn't get to use the Springs since he cannot carry them around.
• One-ups, respawns, and such are not counted here. This also goes for things like Bowser coming back all the time after falling in lava; if it means defeat in their game, it means defeat here. Fairies from Zelda and such are different because they seamlessly revive Link on the spot.
• Game mechanics are not taken into account here. A gameplay mechanic is an aspect of the game that is purely a result of that game's style and way of doing things, and does not indicate the character's abilities. For instance, things such as invincibility frames are game mechanics, while Mario jumping is not.
• There is no teleportation out of the arena (combatants can teleport around the arena, however), and if a character is otherwise absent from the arena for at least ten seconds of normal time, they forfeit the match.
• All items, techniques, attacks, etc. the character owns are compiled for the matchups. However, if a character just happens to have used an item belonging to someone else (such as when Pit uses Palutena's Powers in Kid Icarus, which would violate both this rule and the no allies rule), it is not allowed.

Of course, this isn't meant to be the definitive ruleset, and there should be lots of discussion before anything is finalized.

I also suggest that we pause any discussions about character matchups while we're organizing this whole thing, to keep the focus on the new thread.

Good idea. But here is a question - should things from Metroid like Reserve Tanks, Concentration (Other M), that last extra hit game gives you if attack is enough to kill Samus unless its on Hard Mode (Other M), etc. count as gameplay mechanics?

 

[Munomario777]

Good idea. But here is a question - should things from Metroid like Reserve Tanks, Concentration (Other M), that last extra hit game gives you if attack is enough to kill Samus unless its on Hard Mode (Other M), etc. count as gameplay mechanics?

Since Reserve Tanks and Concentration seem to be an attribute of Samus, they can stay. I'm not sure what you mean by the other thing; could you go into a bit more detail on that?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Since Reserve Tanks and Concentration seem to be an attribute of Samus, they can stay. I'm not sure what you mean by the other thing; could you go into a bit more detail on that?

If Samus gets hit by, say, Zebesian when on very low health, number on her energy remaining meter will start constantly flickering/switching between 0 and 1 until she heals herself or gets hit (which leads to death). No things like enemies getting slowed down happens, she just gets one last hit point. This is not present in Hard mode, resulting in bosses (especially Ridley) and strongest enemies killing Samus in one hit most of the time.

 

[Munomario777]

If Samus gets hit by, say, Zebesian when on very low health, number on her energy remaining meter will start constantly flickering/switching between 0 and 1 until she heals herself or gets hit (which leads to death). No things like enemies getting slowed down happens, she just gets one last hit point. This is not present in Hard mode, resulting in bosses (especially Ridley) and strongest enemies killing Samus in one hit most of the time.

Hm. That could be interpreted as the armor hanging by its last thread, but someone more experienced in Metroid would probably be better off deciding that than I would to be honest.

 

[Crystanium]

But then again, master sword doesn't seems to actually kill him in OoT even though it should be fatal to get a sword through your head and that is after a lot of beating. And i don't think its a good idea to trust most of the stuff the old man says (thanks to the early Nintendo translation) since, well, dodongos dislike bombs instead of smoke and "EASTMOST PENINSULA IS THE SECRET". So, maybe they can repel evil. But since this has been argued with already, that doesn't matters much i guess.

Anyway, if we're using composite forms of characters, then what to do with all of those Links and Zeldas? Or it doesn't matters that they always are different persons that act as original Link and Zelda's reincarnations in all games outside of direct sequels like Zelda 2? And what to do with Samus' ridicolous defense boost with that last suit upgrade in Metroid Fusion, differences in Metroid Prime and other versions of beams like MP Wave Beam, Other M Wave Beam and Super Metroid Wave Beam?

I always thought the master sword in OoT was thrust into Ganondorf's mouth. It honestly never looked like a fatal blow, even if that's what was intended.

I tried laying out what a composite Link would look like in the previous pages. Here's the weapon strength. Here are a few items.

• Golden sword: It's the master sword after it has been upgraded twice. It's the strongest weapon known in the Zeldaverse. You can find this here.
• Mirror shield: While the Hylian shield in SS is virtually indestructible, I went with the mirror shield so Link can be protected from ice attacks.
• Skull hammer: This hammer has a higher damage than the other hammers Link acquires.
• Bomb: While normal bombs don't produce as much damage as the stronger kinds like the powder keg, bombs are typically useless against most characters on the tier list anyway. Link is better off combining them with his arrows to make bomb arrows.
• Gale boomerang: This boomerang looks more useful. It can stun stronger enemies with the gale it produces.
• Sacred bow and arrows: The sacred bow is Link's strongest bow, but if the bows in later games are the same, then there should be no difference. Link has access to fire, ice, light, and silver arrows. The first three are enchanted arrows, so Link is just carrying normal arrows and silver arrows. The former can be enchanted, or it can be combined with bombs.
• Fire, ice, tornado, and sand rods: Useful for mid-range and various effects.
• Roc's cape: Link can momentarily glide with this from what I recall.
• Bombos, ether, and quake medallions: More useful against enemies than bosses.
• Cane of Byrna: It creates a force field to protect Link, but requires magic.
• Seed satchel: Link has access to all seeds that can be acquired in the OoX series.
• Magic rings: I've given Link ten magic rings to use, since he has ten fingers. Two magic rings protect Link from electricity and flames. That's why I wanted the mirror shield instead, since the Hylian shield protects Link from electricity and flames. Kind of redundant to have two of the same defenses. Link also has an ability with two magic rings to slowly regenerate. He also has rings that increase his sword attack damage.
• Red mail: This is the best chainmail Link acquires.
• Golden gauntlets: I prefer these over any other strength enhancement because it allows Link to lift heavier objects compared to the others. Also, Link does not have titan's mitt or any other kind of glove because in reality, his ability to wield weapons would be greatly hindered.
• Power bracelets: However, Link can wear the power bracelets under his gauntlets, so that's where the 500+ mt boost comes from.
• Hookshot: I'm not sure which one we're using. It shouldn't matter. I think the ones from TP look cool.
• Chateau milk: Link's magic last for three days. I don't think it's infinite for three days, only that it lasts that long, which gives the impression that it's infinite. I could be wrong if a description of it says otherwise, though.
• Magic cape: Link becomes invisible and intangible.
• Magic armor: Link is protected by a magical barrier from enemy attacks.
• Din's fire, Nayru's love, and Farore's wind: All have their own uses, but I think Din's fire would be most useful here. Nayru's love is paled in comparison to the magic armor. Farore's wind seems to only work in dungeons, which was replaced by the Ooccoo in TP.

I didn't include potions for enhancing Link's durability, but they're there. I'm also not sure what I missed, aside from the spells Link learns in AoL. There is the additional defense enhancement, but that appears to apply only to his mail, since that's the only part that changes red. That might be where the red mail got its inspiration.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I always thought the master sword in OoT was thrust into Ganondorf's mouth. It honestly never looked like a fatal blow, even if that's what was intended.

Looks like a fresh pork barbecue to me:

 

[Crystanium]

• I always thought of the battlefield as an open field where there's a barrier that cannot be passed, else the combatant would be disqualified. This only pertained to the field, however, and not the sky.
• I agree that should there be a tie, we decide who is more advantageous.
• I would define "outside help" as assistance from one with a personality of its own, i.e., one who possesses personhood. Outside help would require one to be conscious and self-aware, but not necessarily sentient (capable of feeling or experiencing pleasure and/or pain). Hard artificial intelligence would be considered another person. Spirits would fall in this category, as would anthropomorphic characters. Summoning should be permitted if and only if the one summon is conjured out of nowhere or if the one summoned is coerced by some means, such as telepathy. Blessings may also be permitted in spite of coming from another conscious and self-aware being, such as Din's blessing towards Ganondorf, or Lady Palutena's blessing towards Pit. That's the only thing granted to them, though. If Wisps behave similarly, then Sonic is permitted this, too.
• I find resurrection from fairies (and resurrection in general) meaningless, since if Link was defeated a particular way, there's no reason for his opponent to fell him in the same manner. It's not as if his items will change all of a sudden so as to change the match-up.
• I think we'll all have to come to an agreement on what is a game mechanic and what isn't. I personally have no issue as long as the mechanic itself is discarded while retaining the true representation of said mechanic.
• I think Pit should be allowed his powers because those are bestowed on Pit.

That's my take on the whole thing.

 

[Munomario777]

Oops, forgot to do a quote!

Well, trying to figure out how to rearrange the Schwarzschild radius, I managed to find the gravity produced by the black hole created by Nightmare. I tinkered with this formula using 10 kilograms as my example and rearranged it enough times until I ended up with 10 kg. The formula for Schwarzschild radius is r = 2GM/c^2. Rearranged to find the mass, it's M = cr^2 / G. I must use c because that is what I used in order to return to 10 kg. for my example when trying to accurately rearrange the formula.

Samus is 112 pixels tall. The black hole is 362 px., or 323% taller than Samus. Samus stands at 1.9 meters, meaning the black hole's diameter is 6.14 m. (20.15 ft.). The radius would be 3.070535714285714245 m. This would give the black hole a mass of 4.24 * 10^19 kg. Next, using F = Gm1m2/r^2, we can find the gravitational force exerted on Samus'. The distance between Samus and the black hole can also be presumed 3.070535714285714245 m., since that would be the distance between Samus and the center of the black hole. This results in a force of 2.701 * 10^10 newtons.

I see.

The blue holy ring says, "No damage from River Zora's fireball." Does this mean only fireballs from the river Zoras? After all, falling into lava harms Link with the ring on. It makes no sense if he'll receive damage from 700 centigrade, while the fireball would be a higher temperature.

It appears so.

I'm not saying it wouldn't. I said if Link has it extended out, then there is that possibility, assuming Link knows that'll happen in the first place.

I see. Holding his sword up in the air also happens to be the charging pose for one of Link's best projectiles, the Skyward Strike. Either way, though, it's safe to assume that he would be holding it in front of him or out away from his body in a battle stance or something along those lines.

They're two different items. Think of it this way. Say the magic armor protects Link from 1 megajoule of damage, but Link has another item that protects Link from 1 kilojoule of damage. It doesn't add as 1,001,000 joules. The magic armor can already protect Link from 1 kJ because it's less than 1 MJ. So it is with the magic armor and blue holy ring.

The way I see it is that the Magic Armor negates that amount of heat and stops it from getting through to Link, and the other item makes Link himself resilient to a certain amount.

Samus' situation is different. Her armor is modular in nature and is known to stack its effects. The varia suit protects Samus from damage by 50%. The gravity suit adds an additional 25% damage reduction so that she's reducing damage by 75%. Her armor essentially does the 1 MJ + 1 kJ. Link's doesn't. It's not known to do this. Rather, what Link acquires, he seems to discard the lesser gear.

Since the ring in question and the Magic Armor don't share a game, we can't really say they wouldn't stack when it seems logical that they would.

I'm not sure what the yield is for one bomb. If I had the yield for one, I could multiply that by ten. Here's what a super missile looks like when it explodes.

Here's how it looks in first-person.

I see. I wasn't able to get ten bombs to explode on Link at once (only three can be out at a time), but I did find a spot with five bomb plants, which function the same as regular bombs. Here's the explosion of eight bombs at once:

Aside from the cartoon art style, it seems pretty similar to the image you provided. This also lags the game out like crazy, by the way. As you can see, the Magic Armor (which I got yesterday to do this research) protects him from the blast. Normally, it deals a quarter heart of damage.

As a side note, during my research, I found that the Magic Armor in the remake actually doesn't drain Magic; it only uses Rupees, and that's only when you get hit. The more you know.

Chozo ghosts don't turn invisible. They simply phase in and out of existence. One might perceive that as turning invisible, but they don't turn invisible. To put it another way, if I could travel at light speed, you would perceive this as turning invisible or simply vanishing when in reality, I just ran too fast for you to perceive me travel light speed, since you don't react to things on a nanosecond level.

Hmm, odd. I don't see how it would be physically possible to harm something that simply doesn't exist.

Flickerbats, shadow pirates, the Omega Pirate, Metroid Prime, Dark Samus can render themselves invisible, which can be detected by thermal, x-ray, or sonic imaging. They become invisible to the truest sense of the word.

I see. Or rather, I don't see, because they're invisible.

Point a firearm at me for about five seconds and tell me to dodge a bullet after it's left the chamber.

Except Dark Samus's arm cannon isn't as fast as a bullet. It takes a clean second to reach its target.

I don't know which hookshot we're using, but that's fine.

Sounds good.

That indicates Link will receive damage. I think we're better off looking at the moments where Link falls down in cut-scenes in OoT/MM

I don't see why he wouldn't take damage from a great height; it just isn't much. I haven't played Ocarina or Majora, so I'm not familiar with those moments.

She's a robot. Robolina.

Now Fils-a-Mech has a friend

• I always thought of the battlefield as an open field where there's a barrier that cannot be passed, else the combatant would be disqualified. This only pertained to the field, however, and not the sky.
• I agree that should there be a tie, we decide who is more advantageous.
• I would define "outside help" as assistance from one with a personality of its own, i.e., one who possesses personhood. Outside help would require one to be conscious and self-aware, but not necessarily sentient (capable of feeling or experiencing pleasure and/or pain). Hard artificial intelligence would be considered another person. Spirits would fall in this category, as would anthropomorphic characters. Summoning should be permitted if and only if the one summon is conjured out of nowhere or if the one summoned is coerced by some means, such as telepathy. Blessings may also be permitted in spite of coming from another conscious and self-aware being, such as Din's blessing towards Ganondorf, or Lady Palutena's blessing towards Pit. That's the only thing granted to them, though. If Wisps behave similarly, then Sonic is permitted this, too.
• I find resurrection from fairies (and resurrection in general) meaningless, since if Link was defeated a particular way, there's no reason for his opponent to fell him in the same manner. It's not as if his items will change all of a sudden so as to change the match-up.
• I think we'll all have to come to an agreement on what is a game mechanic and what isn't. I personally have no issue as long as the mechanic itself is discarded while retaining the true representation of said mechanic.
• I think Pit should be allowed his powers because those are bestowed on Pit.

That's my take on the whole thing.

• That's sort of how this would work, except the barrier is a steel wall and the sky ends ten miles up. This is mainly so that flying characters can't just evade forever.
• Glad we're on the same page.
• Sounds good, although I'm not sure about blessings. I think it's fine if it's a permanent blessing that doesn't require action from the person bestowing it (for instance, if Link was blessed with an increase in attack power), but the Powers require active involvement from Palutena, so I don't think they should be allowed.
• Many attacks are limited-use-only, so if someone spent the last of their ammo killing Link and then the fairy revived him, the battle would be changed. It could also be used for an element of surprise (the opponent thought that they defeated Link, but were caught off guard when he got up again).
• I think it depends on the mechanic honestly. I agree with your sentiments on HP, but I think we should discard things such as invincibility frames entirely.
• As I said earlier, Palutena has to be there to activate the Powers, so it's ally assistance.

 

[Crystanium]

I see. Holding his sword up in the air also happens to be the charging pose for one of Link's best projectiles, the Skyward Strike. Either way, though, it's safe to assume that he would be holding it in front of him or out away from his body in a battle stance or something along those lines.

He'll have it somewhat in front of him as when he's in his fighting stance.

The way I see it is that the Magic Armor negates that amount of heat and stops it from getting through to Link, and the other item makes Link himself resilient to a certain amount.

I just see it as Link's magic armor preventing harm from magma, while the ring isn't even going into effect because it's not in direct contact with Link.

Since the ring in question and the Magic Armor don't share a game, we can't really say they wouldn't stack when it seems logical that they would.

But we can observe that certain items in any of the Zelda games don't stack.

I see. I wasn't able to get ten bombs to explode on Link at once (only three can be out at a time), but I did find a spot with five bomb plants, which function the same as regular bombs. Here's the explosion of eight bombs at once:

Aside from the cartoon art style, it seems pretty similar to the image you provided. This also lags the game out like crazy, by the way. As you can see, the Magic Armor (which I got yesterday to do this research) protects him from the blast. Normally, it deals a quarter heart of damage.

If only I could see that in action. So, I was trying to figure out what explosive was used in the past, and it appears black powder (gunpowder) was used. That would make it a low-explosive, meaning its explosive velocity would be less than 5,000 m/s. This site says it's generally less than 2,000 m/s and is citing this from a pdf from the National Park Service. It doesn't seem that link is up any longer. This pdf says it's 1,350 m/s.

Considering the radius of the explosion as it explodes seems to be 7.112 meters, that gives us 0.0052681481481481 seconds. Using G. I. Taylor's method, which comes pretty close to the actual yield of an explosion should provide us. We end up with 313,914.86 joules, which is equivalent to 75 grams of TNT. Multiply that by 5 and you have 375 grams (1,569,574.3 J)

As a side note, during my research, I found that the Magic Armor in the remake actually doesn't drain Magic; it only uses Rupees, and that's only when you get hit. The more you know.

I mentioned this before to you. We simply went with the magic armor from the Game Cube version.

Hmm, odd. I don't see how it would be physically possible to harm something that simply doesn't exist.

Well, they exist, just not in that plane during that time. Another use is the dark visor in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. There are creatures called krelee, which enter another dimension. When they do that, Samus cannot seem them. She could shoot in the area they were at and they won't be harmed. However, when Samus uses the dark visor, even if the krelee enters another dimension, she can kill it.

Except Dark Samus's arm cannon isn't as fast as a bullet. It takes a clean second to reach its target.

We've been through this. In fact, I was playing the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii and saw those enemies who throw wrenches at you. Wrenches would fly faster than that. I'm not convinced that projectiles fired or thrown in media like these behave as they should. After all, we know Samus and Dark Samus can shoot faster than that.

Sounds good.

I don't see why he wouldn't take damage from a great height; it just isn't much. I haven't played Ocarina or Majora, so I'm not familiar with those moments.[/quote]

I'll have to be heading out as of right now, but you can look up in OoT the battles against the King Dodongo and Bongo Bongo, as well as Gyorg in MM.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

These are really the only game mechanics I can think of that would apply to several characters.

• Health Systems: We might be able to use them as estimates for how much damage someone can take, but we should still remove the bars. Some of the systems don't really make sense in some cases. For example, if you flick Mario twice, he dies (with no power-ups factored in). If you flick R.O.B. twice, he falls over (at most). Could a tiny toy really take more damage than an adult man?
• Limited Usage Powers: Power points (Pokemon), psychic points (Mother), cooldown time (Xenoblade) are examples. Any power that has limited usage during gameplay shouldn't have that limit. However, items are different. It actually makes sense that someone wouldn't have an infinite amount of items, so these can be limited.
• Damage on Touch: Boss/enemy characters () can deal damage when the hero touches them, yet this doesn't apply here.
• Certain Inabilities: Some characters can't do certain things in their games that they'd actually be able to do. For example, Ness can't jump or run, yet he can do that here because there's no reason he wouldn't be able to.

Other than those, game mechanics pretty much apply to certain situations. Like the Teleport move, which allows you to leave a battle with a wild Pokemon. Teleport should actually give its user the ability to teleport anywhere, regardless of who they're fighting.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

These are really the only game mechanics I can think of that would apply to several characters.

• Health Systems: We might be able to use them as estimates for how much damage someone can take, but we should still remove the bars. Some of the systems don't really make sense in some cases. For example, if you flick Mario twice, he dies (with no power-ups factored in). If you flick R.O.B. twice, he falls over (at most). Could a tiny toy really take more damage than an adult man?
• Limited Usage Powers: Power points (Pokemon), psychic points (Mother), cooldown time (Xenoblade) are examples. Any power that has limited usage during gameplay shouldn't have that limit. However, items are different. It actually makes sense that someone wouldn't have an infinite amount of items, so these can be limited.
• Damage on Touch: Boss/enemy characters () can deal damage when the hero touches them, yet this doesn't apply here.
• Certain Inabilities: Some characters can't do certain things in their games that they'd actually be able to do. For example, Ness can't jump or run, yet he can do that here because there's no reason he wouldn't be able to.

Other than those, game mechanics pretty much apply to certain situations. Like the Teleport move, which allows you to leave a battle with a wild Pokemon. Teleport should actually give its user the ability to teleport anywhere, regardless of who they're fighting.

I disagree about things like power points, phychic points, etc. You can't use gun if its out of ammo and so you can't use something without having enough energy or...er...stamina i guess...whatever. Same goes for cooldown. What if its required to prevent malfunctions or it will just not work because it haven't recharged yet?

 

[Munomario777]

He'll have it somewhat in front of him as when he's in his fighting stance.

Very true.

I just see it as Link's magic armor preventing harm from magma, while the ring isn't even going into effect because it's not in direct contact with Link.

And the harm from magma mostly stems from heat. The Magic Armor negates said heat, and any excess heat would go to the ring.

But we can observe that certain items in any of the Zelda games don't stack.

Such as? You're working with the speed and power items stacking, after all.

If only I could see that in action.

I'm pretty sure it's a hacked game, but this video has something similar. If you own Wind Waker, I performed this on Dragon Roost Island before the dungeon entrance (where the bridge is broken and you have to flood the area to swim across the gap), so you could try it for yourself.

So, I was trying to figure out what explosive was used in the past, and it appears black powder (gunpowder) was used. That would make it a low-explosive, meaning its explosive velocity would be less than 5,000 m/s. This site says it's generally less than 2,000 m/s and is citing this from a pdf from the National Park Service. It doesn't seem that link is up any longer. This pdf says it's 1,350 m/s.

Considering the radius of the explosion as it explodes seems to be 7.112 meters, that gives us 0.0052681481481481 seconds. Using G. I. Taylor's method, which comes pretty close to the actual yield of an explosion should provide us. We end up with 313,914.86 joules, which is equivalent to 75 grams of TNT. Multiply that by 5 and you have 375 grams (1,569,574.3 J)

I see. How does that compare to Samus's Missile?

Also, I feel like I should point out that since Wind Waker doesn't possess any defense upgrades, the quarter-heart of damage without the Magic Armor would be reduced even further by his defense upgrades.

I mentioned this before to you. We simply went with the magic armor from the Game Cube version.

Ah, I must have missed that. Whoops!

Well, they exist, just not in that plane during that time. Another use is the dark visor in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. There are creatures called krelee, which enter another dimension. When they do that, Samus cannot seem them. She could shoot in the area they were at and they won't be harmed. However, when Samus uses the dark visor, even if the krelee enters another dimension, she can kill it.

Hmm, that is odd. Seeing as how Link is simply becoming invisible/partially intangible rather than travelling between dimensions (although he can do that too via the Magic Mirror), I'd imagine it would work somewhat differently.

We've been through this. In fact, I was playing the New Super Mario Bros. for the Wii and saw those enemies who throw wrenches at you. Wrenches would fly faster than that. I'm not convinced that projectiles fired or thrown in media like these behave as they should. After all, we know Samus and Dark Samus can shoot faster than that.

Yes, in real life, a wrench thrown like that would either have to travel faster or would fall almost immediately; but games aren't real life. Cutscenes, lore, gameplay, etc. rule out real-life physics. In real life, hedgehogs cannot run beyond the speed of sound. In real life, eating a mushroom doesn't make you grow twice your current height. In real life, curling into a ball with electricity flying everywhere doesn't let you fly. But games aren't real life, so we take it as-is. Even though Dark Samus might be able to shoot faster than that, she didn't in the cutscene in question.

I'll have to be heading out as of right now, but you can look up in OoT the battles against the King Dodongo and Bongo Bongo, as well as Gyorg in MM.

Hmm, I see. That is quite a fall.

These are really the only game mechanics I can think of that would apply to several characters.

• Health Systems: We might be able to use them as estimates for how much damage someone can take, but we should still remove the bars. Some of the systems don't really make sense in some cases. For example, if you flick Mario twice, he dies (with no power-ups factored in). If you flick R.O.B. twice, he falls over (at most). Could a tiny toy really take more damage than an adult man?
• Limited Usage Powers: Power points (Pokemon), psychic points (Mother), cooldown time (Xenoblade) are examples. Any power that has limited usage during gameplay shouldn't have that limit. However, items are different. It actually makes sense that someone wouldn't have an infinite amount of items, so these can be limited.
• Damage on Touch: Boss/enemy characters () can deal damage when the hero touches them, yet this doesn't apply here.
• Certain Inabilities: Some characters can't do certain things in their games that they'd actually be able to do. For example, Ness can't jump or run, yet he can do that here because there's no reason he wouldn't be able to.

Other than those, game mechanics pretty much apply to certain situations. Like the Teleport move, which allows you to leave a battle with a wild Pokemon. Teleport should actually give its user the ability to teleport anywhere, regardless of who they're fighting.

Sounds good, except for a few things. I think we should use health systems that have ties into other parts of gameplay (for instance, Mario's power-up system would work fine since Mushrooms are a power-up that serves to make him tougher, while, say, Pokemon hit points are really just a measurement for their natural health). I do agree that we should only count stronger attacks though, and flicking and such shouldn't count. I also think we should count limited use, since it's mostly a matter of energy. Why can't the Pokemon use Psychic anymore? Because it's out of psychic energy. Why can't Shulk use his Arts for a little while? Because they have to recharge. That said, I agree with your other points.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf has the strongest attacks, but is super slow

Pit Is the most balanced character in the game with average abilities for everything(Above average recovery)

Greninja is the fastest character but doesnt hit very hard but its easy to land hits.

choose based on your playstyle.

 

[Munomario777]

Ganondorf has the strongest attacks, but is super slow

Pit Is the most balanced character in the game with average abilities for everything(Above average recovery)

Greninja is the fastest character but doesnt hit very hard but its easy to land hits.

choose based on your playstyle.

This isn't talking about in the Smash games; it's talking about from their own universe. So it's Ganon from Zelda, Pit from Kid Icarus, and Greninja from Pokemon, as well as the rest of the cast, facing off against each other.

Also, Mario is probably the most balanced character, and Sonic is the fastest.

 

[Deleted member]

This isn't talking about in the Smash games; it's talking about from their own universe. So it's Ganon from Zelda, Pit from Kid Icarus, and Greninja from Pokemon, as well as the rest of the cast, facing off against each other.

Also, Mario is probably the most balanced character, and Sonic is the fastest.

Whoops my bad I did not realize it.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Also, cooldowns, limited power points, psychic points, etc. are, of course, used to prevent players from just spamming a very powerful/useful spell/attack/whatever. Same should apply here for exacty same reasons. We can't have Link having infinite magic cape (which requires its own kind of "power/magic/psychic/whatever you want it to be points" to use) running around freely, can't we?

 

[Munomario777]

Also, cooldowns, limited power points, psychic points, etc. are, of course, used to prevent players from just spamming a very powerful/useful spell/attack/whatever. Same should apply here for exacty same reasons. We can't have Link having infinite magic cape (which requires its own kind of "power/magic/psychic/whatever you want it to be points" to use) running around freely, can't we?

Actually, we can, if he drank Chateau Romani before that point.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Actually, we can, if he drank Chateau Romani before that point.

Well, thats not the point, but i guess having some of that booze in aLttP would certainly break the game then. Kinda forgot about this little thing. Anyway, we can't just remove something that was added only to limit something very useful to prevent it from breaking the game.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I also think we should count limited use, since it's mostly a matter of energy. Why can't the Pokemon use Psychic anymore? Because it's out of psychic energy. Why can't Shulk use his Arts for a little while? Because they have to recharge. That said, I agree with your other points.

The limited usage is added to games to prevent you from beating them too easily. If there is someone with a hax attack limited by points or whatever, that just means that they are powerful and should go on top of the list.

"Running out of energy" is something that machines do. It doesn't make sense for someone to run out of it, at least, not without them regaining it after resting. And if Mewtwo in your example was out of psychic energy, then why could he still use Confusion or his other psychic moves? He wouldn't really be out of psychic energy.

RPGs are full of game mechanics, and we should remove all of them. If they actually made sense, they'd appear in more kinds of video games. With game mechanics on, Mario can throw an indefinite amount of fireballs and attack an indefinite amount of time before his opponent. Neither of those apply when RPG mechanics are on.

 

[Munomario777]

The limited usage is added to games to prevent you from beating them too easily. If there is someone with a hax attack limited by points or whatever, that just means that they are powerful and should go on top of the list.

In that case, Samus has infinite Super Missiles, Sonic has unlimited Rings, Mario gets unlimited hitpoints... just because it's there to make a game harder doesn't mean it's automatically disqualified.

"Running out of energy" is something that machines do. It doesn't make sense for someone to run out of it, at least, not without them regaining it after resting. And if Mewtwo in your example was out of psychic energy, then why could he still use Confusion or his other psychic moves? He wouldn't really be out of psychic energy.

Okay, if only machines can run out of energy, then try running across the earth without stopping. You will run out of energy to run, just like a Pokemon runs out of energy to use Psychic, Fly, etc. Mewtwo ran out of the energy allocated to Psychic, so now he must use Confusion or another move. Just because your legs are worn out doesn't mean that you can't lift up an apple; leg energy =/= arm/hand energy.

RPGs are full of game mechanics, and we should remove all of them. If they actually made sense, they'd appear in more kinds of video games. With game mechanics on, Mario can throw an indefinite amount of fireballs and attack an indefinite amount of time before his opponent. None of those apply to RPG.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions and say that all RPG mechanics should be excluded without first analysing each case and seeing if that's actually the best thing to do. How do game mechanics allow Mario to get a million attacks in before his opponent moves?