Young Horsetail said:
Where do you even come up with that kind of logic? There isn't any kind of indication supporting your argument about "franchises prior to Melee being unaffected." Why wasn't Little Mac then included? Was he maybe deemed "unworthy" as well? And even then, he might have only his sequel and huge popularity in US helping him to get him in SSB4.
Think about what you're saying.
My initial point was that what Sakurai said about Pikmin and Animal Crossing in terms of newer series being the only ones deserving of a character negatively affects Golden Sun.
You try to counterpoint by saying it also affects Sin and Punishment as well as Punch-Out!!.
I point out that Sakurai specifically referred to series post 2001, which Sin and Punishment and Punch-Out!! are not, and thus, are not affected by
that particular statement, but I did state that they have their own problems to deal with
unrelated to it.
Your counter? "HOW DO YOU KNOW IT DOESN'T AFFECT THEM, HUH? MAYBE LITTLE MAC WASN'T WORTHY EITHER!!!" Which is, I'm sorry to say, idiotic.
One, the reason why the statement doesn't affect them? SIMPLE READING COMPREHENSION. Sakurai discussed that of series
introduced since 2001, only Pikmin and Animal Crossing were deemed worthy of characters. This means, a 2001 series character like Isaac is affected by this particular statement, but a 1984 series character and a 2000 series character like Mac and Saki respectively, are not.
Also, the idea of someone being called a "legend" by Sakurai being "unworthy" is laughable.
Except Waluigi already has his own issues (being a spin-off character). We're talking about a character with higher chances than him. Waluigi also has been a color palette already before, so?
On the other hand, I might give that it might haven't been the best argument, but ah well.
This still isn't your best argument.
For one, being a spin-off character doesn't make lick of difference.
Two, "a character with higher chances than him"? While I'm not going to advocate for Waluigi's chances at this point of time, Waluigi is not a character from a franchise deemed unworthy by Sakurai, and unlike Isaac, he has support WORLDWIDE. His US support may not be as strong as Isaac's, but he has support in Japan, which even though he's not the top Mario request there (no one really is), the fact he gets support at all there already puts him above Isaac. From a logical standpoint, Waluigi has more going for him than Isaac with the only point that can be used to bring him down in comparison is "he's a spin-off character", which is only an faulty excuse given to those against him as being a spin-off character doesn't affect chances.
Three, Luigi only had a Waluigi color in Brawl, so he HADN'T been a palette for someone before (not that this means anything, but I'm just correcting you).
The fact about Ridley not still being added despite us getting Olimar despite his size deeming him unlikely, yet it's what holds Ridley back (or the fact that he'd be "slow".)
That for example, is what I find flawed. In my honest opinion it makes him rather unpredictable and seeing how Mac got shafted to an Assist-status...
Basically I'm saying that Sakurai's views might just those characters's chances as much as they do Isaac, or any other potential newcomers.
Except that we don't know Ridley was held back due to size or speed. We don't necessarily know why he was held back, but it seems more like Sakurai didn't really put much thought into him until he was confronted about him, seeing as he quickly backtracked his "would be pretty impossible" statement with that he can work with effort, but he would have to be somewhat slow.
Sure, this could very well imply that Ridley would be problematic for Smash 4 as well. However, unlike the statement that affects Isaac, this one is left open for interpretation and could go either way. His demand could be reason enough to put in said effort to make him work, or he just would not be worth the hassle; we simply don't know.
As for Little Mac, we don't know why he was "shunned" either. Though I'm willing to bet it was more or less because he had very little to work with that would make him interesting, which is the reasoning why the Urban Champion was pushed to the side for the Ice Climbers in Melee. He doesn't have that much of an issue now because of the Wii game, especially when you factor his new styles of attacks from multiplayer and the over-the-top moves his opponents use that he could probably copy for Smash such as Macho Man's Triple Clothesline and Aran Ryan's glove on a rope. (tether recovery, perhaps?)
Are you ruling out a hole in your argument when you're telling me to not mention Marth?
No. It's that it's an argument that I don't want to see, as I would have to take extra time to show how Marth cannot be used as an example, and I really don't want to do it out of laziness.
Smash Bros though hasn't really been that big of a promoting machine since Melee for the series being featured as a playables. Brawl had mostly franchises already seen before expect Kid Icarus which got a huge popularity boost due being included. So are you serious thinking Smash Bros would be used as a promotion title? I don't think people tend to get really interested on some series after Smash Bros until it has to do with the one making them (Kid Icarus due getting Uprising). Besides some series featured in Smash Bros have been left on a long hiatus for a reason or another. See below.
When discussing with 2nd Party companies and characters, promotion and marketability can come up.
2nd Parties are notably more difficult to negotiate than with 1st Parties.
Camelot has already lost the game though. Just making the fans wait for a mediocrely received sequel for 5 long years and actually saying they'll push it as a real direction to the series, hasn't been to favourable. It's pretty big blow there. Promoting Matthew and thus making the fans flock to the series might make em find the prequels and perhaps wonder how they had more to them than the real game. I also don't see Camelot doing GS4 for a long time even if Smash Bros might boost their recognition due Matthew, leaving fans of Smash waiting maybe as much as the longtime ones.
If you're claiming that future games are going to be pecieved as mediocre, then this a "They Changed It Now It Sucks" mentality. Isaac didn't make the first two games. Especially not the 2nd, since Felix was the star there, not him.
What would need to be done is to work on what made Dark Dawn "mediocre" (and no, Matthew being the hero did not contribute to that, no matter what anyone says) and fix it. The most critiqued thing I see of the game is that it's too easy. Solution? Make the next game harder. Any other notable criticisms that are actually legitimate and not just whining over nothing?
I mean, the way you talk, it's like having a mindset that future Metroid titles are going to be like Other M and cause no one to care about the series.
And seeing how GS hasn't yet gone to home consoles, itmight just fall into a hiatus again due low fan demand at the moment. Smash Bros won't bring em much fortune enough to help them start a sequel like that. Thus why they won't necessarily try to put promotion on Matthew incase they're aware how the game was met and go for a safer option, which is keeping the current fanbase interested and shift it to Isaac. They had blown up already and it shows. So like I said above, them trying to use Matthew to promote their series isn't gonna help them very much. F-Zero's already suffering from not having much series under it's belt since Brawl and same can be said about the series Assists were lifted from due them being now in such a long hiatus. (Custom Robo, Starfy, Advance Wars...)
And I thought
I was pessimistic. I honestly don't know how to respond to this.
How does this contribute so hugely to them tho? Especially Mac. His series aren't that big in Japan and you say his US support being noted in Japan seems to help their popularity or likeliness so much. So far I can't even seen how this helps to contribute to the inclusion of the characters if they have a big fan support in US yet in Japan they seem to be only noted by their support outerseas.
Ah, but you're missing the big picture. If a Smash fanbase is able to notice their popularity, who's to say that someone like Sakurai hasn't noticed it too? Afterall, he somehow knew of Pit's requests from US, and it's not like he made a poll for THAT. Granted, this means he
could see Isaac is as well. However, the other problems involving Camelot and his documented feeling of any series since 2001 and prior to Brawl other than Animal Crossing, Pikmin, and on technicality, WarioWare come into play.
I can't seriously believe this. You're mixing Golden Sun's fanbase with some other "fanbase" (the ones supporting Isaac for sake of supporting him due likeliness).
I meant the real fanbase which was doing forums, wikis, huge slew of fanart and fanfiction and so much more for a series having only two games in GBA. I ain't mentioning the series having cult fanbase for nothing. But going out there and saying his fanbase is same as Geno's sounds like an insult.
I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but I am getting the impression that it's just another Geno situation, but at least for a character that isn't blatantly impossible, but rather extremely unlikely.
And the way you're giving your points is not helping my impression.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Isaac to where I don't
want him in. It's just that logically, he's not someone that should be expected. And when people try to give flawed or subjective excuses to why the logic is wrong, it irritates me.
So basically what you're stating is that they have a bigger shot. Nothing else.
In a series where character popularity is mostly measured through the home country (Japan) with very little exceptions (such as Pit), it just makes logical sense that of three that have only overseas support, the ones without glaring problems will be the ones to get in while the one that does is excluded.
But I'll tell you what. If Isaac does end up in against the stark lack of odds, I will eat my words.
No literally. I will print out everything I had said in this topic in regards to this issue, and eat the paper(s) that it is printed on. And post a video of it.