Which series should get a second rep?

[Jason the Yoshi]

As it is now, Kid Icarus and Sonic are represented rather poorly.

 

[ErenJager]

Palutena fanaticism is toppling the logical choice of F-Zero.
I declare bias.

 

[Speculator]

Sakurai being biased towards his own series is basically the last reason people find her so likely now.
The best way I can put what I've read her is-- your view point seems outdated.
Not only is she among the most requested characters, but there have been hints and leaks recently.
Before I continue, I'm going to go ask the Palutena thread what I've been meaning to post there for a while:
Which one piece of evidence that leads to Palutena being likely supports her chances better than the rest.
I want to see what people say.

I'm interested to hear what they say as well. I do believe that Sakurai's involvement in Uprising is the central point around which Palutena expectations revolve, and a lot of other points have emerged from that expectation. The danger is in people deciding that a character is likely, and then looking for evidence that supports that expectation. For example; from an outside perspective there's no reason to take the Psuedo-Palutena trophy as anything other than a playful joke. Treating it as evidence for Palutena's inclusion is a form of confirmation bias. I also question to what degree character requests influence the final roster - if it was really such a prominent consideration I think Ridley would have been included a long time ago. I think Sakurai prefers to make those decisions himself.

Just to reiterate - I think Palutena's chances are good. Her series is reasonably important right now and she has a lot to bring to SSB. I simply don't think she's a shoo-in and I think the points that don't work in her favor are being unfairly dismissed.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Sonic, Wario, Kid Icarus, F-Zero, and Pikmin all deserve a second character.

Tails, Ashley, Palutena, Goroh, and Louie/Alph would be great but impossible.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

KI and Sonic deserves second rep the most of all. Will most likely be Tails and Palutena

 

[Cpt.]

F-Zero and Kid Icarus are the only sensible ones. KI for having the new game come out with Sakurai as the dev. F-Zero for being one of the original 12. While Yoshi is an orignal 12 he is still part of the Mario universe.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Palutena fanaticism is toppling the logical choice of F-Zero.
I declare bias.

F-Zero hasn't had a new game in a decade, Goroh's already bitten the dust, and the closest runner up for a new F-Zero character (Black Shadow) would be painfully tempting to just make into a Ganondorf clone. As far as Miyamoto's concerned, F-Zero's DNR until further notice.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Only reason I'd NOT want a second Wario is if it was god damn Ashley.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I really wanted Ashley but I'd be perfectly fine with Mona, Jimmy T, or (someone off my Brawl wishlist) Captain Syrup. I think many of the Wario Ware characters have a lot of creative potential.

 

[Z1GMA]

Wario - Waluigi should've made it.
Metroid - Ridley %()(&/##&)
F-zero - Black Shadow
Kid Icarus - Palutena
Punch Out - King Hippo

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't believe any of those series need a second rep. They're all either very small, focused predominantly on one character, or third party. The only exception to those would be F-Zero, and I don't believe an F-Zero newcomer really has anything to bring to the game outside of F-Zero representation itself, which is already more than adequately supplied by Captain Falcon.

I'd argue Yoshi and Wario (And Animal Crossing) might be considered 'deserving' in this case, actually. Yoshi has six games and will have seven assuming Yarn Yoshi comes out, Wario has around 15 whole games dedicated to him, with I think around eight games from WarioWare, the primary Wario series represented in Smash. Both these series actually have more games than the three headed Hydra (or Chimera?) known as Star Fox.

So I'd say it's not really an issue of their series not 'deserving' it or what not, it's just neither series really have a character that deserves to be in. Neither Yoshi or Wario really have a Diddy Kong or Zelda or even Palutena to call of their own. I don't think Kamek is important or popular enough (Yoshi's main villain is in Smash anyways...), and the Warioware gang (Mona, Ashley, Jimmy T, etc) are just too peripheral. I guess Wario has Captain Syrup, but she's only been a few Wario Land games, and her role in the latest one was just a shop keeper.

 

[IronFish]

I wouldn't call myself Speculator if I didn't question whether or not a character is really a shoo-in just because that seems to be the prevailing notion at the time. I like Palutena as a character, but I won't look at her exclusively from the perspective of someone who wants her in. As it happens, I think a lot of this idea that she's a guaranteed newcomer stems from this presumption that Sakurai somehow favors his own series. First and foremost, that's what I dispute. I would be surprised, especially considering Sakurai's comments in his Kotaku interview, that he would be so overt as including a second character for a series with barely three games just because he happened to direct one of them. His alleged bias towards Kirby characters doesn't seem to hold up when we consider that Kirby didn't get any additional characters until the third SSB game, despite easily deserving at least one as early as Melee. The fact that it got two newcomers in Brawl was simply a matter of catching up.

This is also where proportional representation starts to come into play. Kirby is a series with over thirty games to its name. It's had a new game nearly every year since its inception. It's a very large and significant series - but not quite to the extent of the big mascot series like Mario, Zelda and Pokemon. That's why it sits one behind those franchises on the Brawl roster. This isn't an exact science, considering Star Fox has three reps despite being a small series with very little variety to bring to SSB (although a lot of this can be traced to Falco's inclusion as a clone in Melee), but for very small series with a singular protagonist like Kid Icarus it serves as a good indicator of where it should sit on the roster.

I only 'doubt' Palutena in the sense that I don't think she's an absolute guarantee, which seems to be the most common position. I think that roster proportion, series significance and what the character can bring to Smash are all important factors to consider. She holds up pretty well in those last two, so I'm happy to say that her chances are pretty good - but unlike a lot of people, I don't think I'd be totally astonished if she didn't make it. Whether or not I think a series needs another character is independent of whether or not I think it can actually get one. The Mario series certainly didn't need a newcomer, but Rosalina still made it because she has a lot to offer the game with her new mechanics and fighting style.

As a side note, these three factors are why I don't think F-Zero will be seeing another character. Looking only at roster proportion it does 'deserve' one - but as far as what the character can bring to SSB, I don't think characters that are mostly icons on a character select screen really hold up. F-Zero really just needs representation in SSB, which is achieved perfectly by including its mascot character.

(Sent from my tablet, so my typing might be a bit clunky. Android hates Smashboards!)

Finally someone who understands

 

[Morbi]

I am surprised that F-Zero is only half of Kid Icarus. I suppose that shows you the power of "muh recency."

 

[Dinoman96]

I am surprised that F-Zero is only half of Kid Icarus. I suppose that shows you the power of "muh recency."

Regardless of 'recency', F-Zero is a racing series that had to have its main playable representative entire moveset made up. I believe Falcon does well enough on his own. That's how I feel with series like Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Yoshi and Wario as well.

 

[Banjodorf]

There seems to apparently be a fine line between "a character is a shoe-in" and "honestly who cares, they're probably in" that you guys seem to be fixating on.

I'm 100% convinced she's in, but honestly if she isn't, I might not even be salty. I just don't see the point of drumming up reasons they might not be in if they seem INCREDIBLY likely and are a character you support.

Then again, I'm in my own personal way convinced of my correctness about a certain goddess being in, so people can squabble all they want.

Honestly speculating about characters being in has lost its sheen to me. And as for the thread topic, I wish I could feel the confidence for an F- Zero character some of you seem to.

Damn it, Sakurai...

 

[Speculator]

So I'd say it's not really an issue of their series not 'deserving' it or what not, it's just neither series really have a character that deserves to be in. Neither Yoshi or Wario really have a Diddy Kong or Zelda or even Palutena to call of their own.

If you look at the last paragraph of my subsequent post, you'll see that in that case we basically share the same position. Wario, Yoshi and F-Zero might well 'deserve' new characters judging solely by the size of their series, but characters from those series really don't have a lot to bring to SSB. Those series are very much centralized around the reps they already have in Smash - Captain Falcon isn't just representing Captain Falcon the character, he's representing F-Zero as a whole. Considering the nature of the series, there isn't a whole lot to achieve by including a character like Goroh or Black Shadow. My point is that considerations between roster proportion and the characters themselves must be made in equal parts.

 

[ErenJager]

F-Zero hasn't had a new game in a decade, Goroh's already bitten the dust, and the closest runner up for a new F-Zero character (Black Shadow) would be painfully tempting to just make into a Ganondorf clone. As far as Miyamoto's concerned, F-Zero's DNR until further notice.

Irrelevant, Captain Falcon is OG, and pretty much synonymous with Smash.
You think Smash you think Falcon punch, especially if you played 64.
Falcon needs a homie or rival or villain on the roster.

Nah for all we know E3 comes and boom, new F-Zero game.
F-Zero way more history with Nintendo and Smash.

 

[Banjodorf]

Irrelevant, Captain Falcon is OG, and pretty much synonymous with Smash.
You think Smash you think Falcon punch, especially if you played 64.
Falcon needs a homie or rival or villain on the roster.

Nah for all we know E3 comes and boom, new F-Zero game.
F-Zero way more history with Nintendo and Smash.

Look, I was as much of an F-Zero fan as the next guy from my generation, but honestly an F-Zero rep ain't happening this time.

Then again, I'm not really sure what parts of your statement were disputing that fact, really.

An F-Zero rep is as likely as a Rush Adapter Final Smash for Mega Man

 

[ErenJager]

Look, I was as much of an F-Zero fan as the next guy from my generation, but honestly an F-Zero rep ain't happening this time.

Then again, I'm not really sure what parts of your statement were disputing that fact, really.

An F-Zero rep is as likely as a Rush Adapter Final Smash for Mega Man

Lol you cheeky monkey, I swear.

 

[Maxilian]

Well most people say Palutena not only because they like her, is mostly because they already believe she's in, all the hints and the leaks make most people think that, but i agree... F-zero should get a 2nd character, will it get one? i don't think so

 

[YoshiandToad]

Goroh was unfortunately already deconfirmed, thus depriving us of the most deserving rep of these series. I guess Black Shadow's not a terrible replacement, but I'd pick Goroh any day of the two.

Waluigi who apparently counts as a Wario character now was also deconfirmed thus depriving us of the other 'Nintendo All Star' option.

That leaves the expected Palutena as the only one from that list who could be considered even slightly 'Nintendo All Star'. Not particularly excited about her, and I don't think KI really needs two reps...we just know it's going to happen.

Yoshi has Kamek, who isn't awful, but I still lean towards AT/Smash enemy material for him. The babies are a bad idea. The Stork is fan crap and shouldn't even be considered as an option. Like ever.

Going to be honest; although I'm generally against the inclusion of third parties, should Tails somehow miraculously get in, he'd probably be the newcomer I'd be most excited about. I don't think Sonic really deserves a second rep in a Nintendo All Stars game though...I'm not even convinced Sonic, Megaman or Snake deserved to be included in a Nintendo fighter.

 

[Niala]

I voted for Kid Icarus simply because I think the recent game was very good and Palutena would be an interesting character. I might add, though, that I think Yoshi, Wario, and to a certain extent F-Zero and Pikmin all have a place among receiving a second rep.

 

[Maxilian]

Goroh was unfortunately already deconfirmed, thus depriving us of the most deserving rep of these series. I guess Black Shadow's not a terrible replacement, but I'd pick Goroh any day of the two.

I agree, i would love to see Black Shadow in and i actually like him way more than samurai Goro, but i think samurai Goro deserve it more

Waluigi who apparently counts as a Wario character now was also deconfirmed thus depriving us of the other 'Nintendo All Star' option.

Well i don't think Waluigi should be a playable character, mostly because he's not relevant at all IMO there are more Wario and Mario characters that deserve it, unless he comes out in a Wario or Mario game as a big character (he have only come out in games like Mario Tenis, Mario party, etc...)

That leaves the expected Palutena as the only one from that list who could be considered even slightly 'Nintendo All Star'. Not particularly excited about her, and I don't think KI really needs two reps...we just know it's going to happen.

Well... if Nintendo plans on doing more KI games (i'm pretty sure they will), then yes... she deserves it

Yoshi has Kamek, who isn't awful, but I still lean towards AT/Smash enemy material for him. The babies are a bad idea. The Stork is fan crap and shouldn't even be considered as an option. Like ever.

I agree, the babies are a bad idea, and Kamek... well there's already a mob that is a Magi Koopa (they look just like Kamek), so unless they remove those mobs or modify the look of Kamek to make him more unique i think he's really unlikely

Going to be honest; although I'm generally against the inclusion of third parties, should Tails somehow miraculously get in, he'd probably be the newcomer I'd be most excited about. I don't think Sonic really deserves a second rep in a Nintendo All Stars game though...I'm not even convinced Sonic, Megaman or Snake deserved to be included in a Nintendo fighter.

I would also love to see Tails in SSB but i don't think they should add 2 representatives of the same third party game, why? cause there are third party games!

Also... i don't agree that Sonic, Megaman or Snake don't deserve to be included in a Nintendo fighter, cause they are great characters and is really nice to have guests in the game, but... IMO it should always look like they are guess and not part of it, if they make them look like something more than guests it will stop being a Nintendo All-star

 

[Speculator]

I don't think Captain Falcon's status as an SSB64 veteran should have any influence on additional reps from F-Zero. New characters don't suddenly become worth it just because their series mascot has been around for a while. If Little Mac had been in Smash since 64, would people really be asking for more boxers? In my view, some characters serve as all-encompassing representatives of their series.

 

[Spinosaurus]

If Little Mac had been in Smash since 64, would people really be asking for more boxers?

I would.

Seriously though you could easily make three boxers different from each other because of the diversity of the sport.

 

[Leafeon523]

Honestly, I don't believe that Kid Icarus deserves a second rep, but I'm fine with it happening. Two games and a recent revival twenty years later (that will not have a sequel made by Sakurai) certainly deserves one character, but not two. If Sakurai had made F-zero Uprising or Pikmin: Of Captains and Monsters, than we would certainly see a second rep from those series instead of Pale tuna.

 

[Maxilian]

Honestly, I don't believe that Kid Icarus deserves a second rep, but I'm fine with it happening. Two games and a recent revival twenty years later (that will not have a sequel made by Sakurai) certainly deserves one character, but not two. If Sakurai had made F-zero Uprising or Pikmin: Of Captains and Monsters, than we would certainly see a second rep from those series instead of Pale tuna.

Why do you think Sakurai won't make a sequel for KI?

 

[Leafeon523]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/8192/nintendo-kid-icarus-uprising-sequel-unlikely/ Sorry

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/8192/nintendo-kid-icarus-uprising-sequel-unlikely/ Sorry

I'm still confused, how the (BLOCKED) does that stop Kid Icarus from getting more reps? It doesn't!

 

[Maxilian]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/8192/nintendo-kid-icarus-uprising-sequel-unlikely/ Sorry

Oh... well... that's sad

 

[Leafeon523]

I'm still confused, how the (BLOCKED) does that stop Kid Icarus from getting more reps? It doesn't!

I never said that it won't get more reps (I'm positive we will see Palutena) I just do not think it deserves more reps. A series with three games does not need two reps when series like Golden Sun still have zero.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I never said that it won't get more reps (I'm positive we will see Palutena) I just do not think it deserves more reps. A series with three games does not need two reps when series like Golden Sun still have zero.

At the time of Melee, we had two StarFox reps when the franchise only had TWO games. Argument invalid!!

 

[Leafeon523]

...I never said Star Fox deserved two reps.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

...I never said Star Fox deserved two reps.

I'm just using StarFox as an example to disprove your theory on Kid Icarus

 

[Rockaphin]

I think the Wario series is the most deserving actually. With more than 15 games that appear to be continuing, I find it very deserving. I think Kid Icarus is overrated on terms of deserving a second rep. Not that I'm against it, but I think there are other series that actually deserve another rep before KI. However, I feel that KI has the best potential for a unique newcomer. Most people consider Palutena the best candidate. I'd rather see Medusa. Mona could indeed work for the second Wario character, but creating her moveset would be a little difficult. Same goes to any F-Zero character, heck, look at Captain Falcon. Pikmin would fall under the same category.

 

[Speculator]

I'm just using StarFox as an example to disprove your theory on Kid Icarus

You can't really 'disprove' someone when their only claim is that they don't think Star Fox deserved two reps. I don't think Star Fox ever deserved more than just Fox. It's worth pointing out, however, that Falco was added in Melee (along with the rest of the clone characters) in order to bulk up the roster. His situation back then was quite different from Palutena's.

 

[smashingDoug]

Kid Icarus and f zero all the other ones don't really have a good enough characters who should get a spot and 3 party will just always just have one rep

 

[Shorts]

Kid Icarus is getting a character we all know that. I feel like it ruined the poll.

But I would say

Wario > F - Zero > Yoshi > Pikmin

 

[Sonic Poke]

Metroid

But the answer is obviously Kid Icarus.

 

[Phaazoid]

In all honesty? None. I voted Yoshi because shy guy for life, but I'd rather see new franchises be represented, Isaac, RAY01, ect.