Where the Mii Fighters stand currently - rulings & Genesis 3

[RIP|Merrick]

I'm sorry about your situation. It sounds like people in your area must really dislike Miis.

Yeeeeah, it's a little ridiculous to be honest. I don't live in the East side, so our events do actually have Miis legal with all special moves available. A lot of people in the East, though, and some of our own West players seem to have this huge disdain for customs in general, which unfortunately applied to Miis as a whole. Although it is nice some people have constantly been making new threads there in the hopes of getting 1111 legal, as it is the TOs have been very quiet regarding any change for that and are painfully behind.

To put things into perspective on how they got banned in East tournaments; most of the TOs their strangely have been under the mindset that it's all or nothing. If I recall when they did a poll regarding the legality of Miis, voters had the option of either allowing all customs for every character or ban Miis entirely, which is as silly as it sounds. Of course, the poll was skewed against Miis from the getgo, because while the East players never wanted a customs meta given their hate for them (with a few exceptions), they also didn't want them banned outright. There wasn't just an option for 1111 or even a preset special set. So they got banned, and I constantly see threads pointing out the wrongs of the poll and how they never had the choice. But the damage seems to be done and pushed under a rug, and we'll probably never see Miis there again.

Which sucks for some of our players like @Epok if he ever wanted to travel a few hours to compete in their events and out of state players, and there's nothing that is being done about it despite the outcry. We, on the other hand, will continue doing what is right for the community, and can't see the Miis specials ever going anywhere. We do default sizes (for simplicity sake), Miis legal, all specials.

Sometimes I feel like people are full of crap, lol. They state all of this stuff that isn't true and their "cheap" kill setups with Mii Brawler, yet when they attempt to do it to me in tournament, I bop them in the face in-game for them thinking they can cheese me out or something. What a joke honestly. Respect to the loyal Mii Fighters who play true to the character.

 

[smashbro29]

That's fallacy, straight up. Rules are not based on "big tournaments". If that were the case then we'd have an argument for Items, jank stages, and 10 majority-vote Custom sets; and not one of those rules, ALL of them.
Locals and majors are two different fields, many times the majors will make major errors (pun intended) and locals will have flimsy rulings. Recognizing these differences and addressing issues with rulings based on logical consequence of principles we set forth is exactly where the Smash Community must head to progress, the alternative has historically been shown to be both ineffective and plagued with strife.

The game should not change due to size of the tournament bracket. Melee tourneys don't allow Pokefloats at locals while excluding it at big tournaments.

What you said is long and has some nice big words but really it just amounts to "everyone's wrong, therefore I'm right". We need a one size fits all solution to the mii problem. End of story. Big tournaments are a lot harder to manage therefore they should be what the rules are for because if they work there they work everywhere.

 

[outfoxd]

All I'd like to say is that its rankling that Mortal Kombat got competitive moveset variants before Smash by virtue of not making them a pain in the left buttock to acquire and use.

Edit: in that vein, looking into how MK handles it might be interesting. I'm not entirely sure but i don't think you're locked to the variant the cursor is on at the character select screen. Then again that game forces you to choose a variant, so, different situation.

 

[Yikarur]

It's a shame I haven't seen this thread until now-

T0MMY
If you try to push for Mii's you should first try to push for the thing that has no logical or logistical holes: Guest Mii sizes
.
Every tournament in germany has Guest Mii's with all moves allowed, because every set-up has these characters present. Owning a 3DS as requirement to play a character is not feasible and really unfair.




I've discussed with the Beast 6 Smash 4 TO (Europe Major) and the ruling looks like the following now:


"Mii Fighters are legal.
Each setup will have 1122 Mii Brawlers / 2331 Swordsmen / 3322 Gunners available for use
(Using Default A-F standard size Miis provided on console).
No other specials for Mii Fighters will be allowed.
Players are not allowed to transfer existing Miis to a setup."

This is not the rule Mii mains want but it's least a working compromise. I'll be probably the only Mii Brawler player there anyway..

Genesis should AT LEAST use this rule.
1111 is bull****. Any other variation is as arbitrary but it's at least playable.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Each setup will have 1122 Mii Brawlers / 2331 Swordsmen / 3322 Gunners available for use

Were all those Mii sets done through a vote from the community? Are they all just considered the more optimal sets for those particular characters?

I feel limiting them kind of defeats the purpose of their design, but hey, they at least in terms of usage out of the special moves look a thousand times better than the awful "default" 1111 sets. If TOs were to compromise and allow what people believe to be the most optimal toolkit for all Miis that could be the next big thing.

The way customization has been treated as of late has been so rubbish lately to be honest. Meh.

 

[outfoxd]

Were all those Mii sets done through a vote from the community? Are they all just considered the more optimal sets for those particular characters?

I feel limiting them kind of defeats the purpose of their design, but hey, they at least in terms of usage out of the special moves look a thousand times better than the awful "default" 1111 sets. If TOs were to compromise and allow what people believe to be the most optimal toolkit for all Miis that could be the next big thing.

The way customization has been treated as of late has been so rubbish lately to be honest. Meh.

Having an "optimal" set and treating it as the only mii from that point on may be the only recourse away from all 1s or no Miis.

I'm interested in this argument solely for selfish reasons. I wanna play Mii Gunner with grenades and bombs.

 

[wizrad]

I'm not clear on how the other sets were decided, but Yikarur was told to come as us at the Mii Skype Group as to what the Brawler set should be. We mostly advocate 2122, but he and the other couple of Brawlers he knows play 1122, so that's where Brawler's sets came from. 3322 is the perfect set for Gunner. 2331 on Swordfighter, not so much. 1332 is better. Shuriken is a crappy laser and Reversal is more useful than a counter (basically Mario's Cape).

It's not really selfish if you believe that it's wrong to limit the character in the way that is being perpetuated. Because it is.

 

[GS3K]

I'm not clear on how the other sets were decided, but Yikarur was told to come as us at the Mii Skype Group as to what the Brawler set should be. We mostly advocate 2122, but he and the other couple of Brawlers he knows play 1122, so that's where Brawler's sets came from. 3322 is the perfect set for Gunner. 2331 on Swordfighter, not so much. 1332 is better. Shuriken is a crappy laser and Reversal is more useful than a counter (basically Mario's Cape).

It's not really selfish if you believe that it's wrong to limit the character in the way that is being perpetuated. Because it is.

No intent on derailing, but I'd switch cannon uppercut with lunar launch only because it's a better recovery move.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I'm not clear on how the other sets were decided, but Yikarur was told to come as us at the Mii Skype Group as to what the Brawler set should be. We mostly advocate 2122, but he and the other couple of Brawlers he knows play 1122, so that's where Brawler's sets came from. 3322 is the perfect set for Gunner. 2331 on Swordfighter, not so much. 1332 is better. Shuriken is a crappy laser and Reversal is more useful than a counter (basically Mario's Cape).

It's not really selfish if you believe that it's wrong to limit the character in the way that is being perpetuated. Because it is.

Actually, 3312 is the best set for mii gunner, and this is agreed upon by most gunner players.

I personally would be somewhat against this policy because I would not be able to use the set I am most comfortable with, but I am hoping that the mii fighter mains in that area agreed to those movesets.

 

[T0MMY]

If you try to push for Mii's you should first try to push for the thing that has no logical or logistical holes: Guest Mii sizes.
Every tournament in germany has Guest Mii's with all moves allowed, because every set-up has these characters present. Owning a 3DS as requirement to play a character is not feasible and really unfair.

Owning a 3DS is fair the same way allowing Gamecube Controllers with adapters is fair. Everyone has the opportunity to buy or borrow either controller to use.
What isn't fair is the currently widespread Mii restrictions that violate competitive principles and divide our community with unilateral and exclusionary out-of-game rulings.

I've discussed with the Beast 6 Smash 4 TO (Europe Major) and the ruling looks like the following now:

"Mii Fighters are legal.
Each setup will have 1122 Mii Brawlers / 2331 Swordsmen / 3322 Gunners available for use
(Using Default A-F standard size Miis provided on console).

You have somehow made the 1111 argument look less arbitrary with an even more arbitrary moveset.
The 1122 ruling is not only obviously arbitrary, but it looks to be enforced without an approval from the Smash Community - Can't even say even the Mii community has accepted this.

This is not the rule Mii mains want but it's least a working compromise. I'll be probably the only Mii Brawler player there anyway..

Several steps backwards from DaPuffster's compromise: 1111, 2222, and 3333.
At least his looks like there's some kind of sense behind it while at the same time allowing for some moveset diversity for the Mii players as the Mii shtick appears to be.

[/quote]Genesis should AT LEAST use this rule.[/QUOTE]
No, Genesis should, AT LEAST ban the Mii fighters completely.
At least an outright ban is both valid and has a precedence (both in For Glory and an option for Tournament Mode).

Arbitrary movesets aren't valid, they aren't warranted, they aren't wanted, and they look arbitrarily embarrassing. 1111 is the same as 1122; illogical.

I'm not clear on how the other sets were decided, but Yikarur was told to come as us at the Mii Skype Group as to what the Brawler set should be.

Why Yikarur was set up to be the dictator over other players is beyond rational comprehension.
The holy glory of the Miiverse never descended to proclaim him King of the Plaza.
Sorry, but we need LESS dictators and more educated community agreeing to acceptable competitive practices.

Shuriken is a crappy laser and Reversal is more useful than a counter (basically Mario's Cape).

Just because it's crappy doesn't mean you can rob me of my ninja star! Over my dead Mii! * ( |:} )

 

[Yikarur]

it's pretty stupid to have a sole set for any Mii because there is not a single best set.
I play 1122 or 2122 with Brawler depending on the MU.
I play 3322 Gunner, but the some play with charged shot, some use lunar launch and nothing is better than the other.
I don't play much Swordfighter but it's arbitrary if you decide for Counter or Cape. Both are completely MU depending.
There is absolutely no way to set a "best set" in Stone. They should just be free..

One set that is almost it's best or it's best is at least a compromise if it would be 1111 otherwise.
but I hope they will be free in the future.
At least I can use my mains in the first major I'm attending =)

T0MMY I don't understand your point about dictatorship. It was discussed in the Mii Fighter Skype Group and it was agreed upon.

 

[T0MMY]

You can play around with words and definitions all you want champ, it doesn't change anything. There is no set competitive law. Is there a standard? Sure. Does that mean that every event needs to confirm to them? Not even remotely.

Take your strawman elsewhere.
Nowhere did I say EVERY tournament has to confirm to them. If you believe otherwise, please quote & link for proof - otherwise, empty words are forgotten.

By your ridiculous rules, things like character round robins are "wrong" and "incorrect".

I have never enforced such a ruling.
Again, if you are going to make a claim: PROVE IT
A simple quote & link should suffice.

If you are saying that such an event is not aligned to a "standard", then I think I'll let reality speak for me - "character round robins" are not standard events. I would simply question why you are trying to say a Competitive Standard is used for a non-standard event. That's irrational.

Do you know how silly that makes you sound? Not everything needs to conform to a standard, having variety in events is in fact a good thing you know. And who are you to tell people how to play the game or run their events?

Again, if you make a claim: PROVE IT

Where did I say "everything needs to conform to a standard"? Sorry, but standard events need to conform to the agreed-upon rules or can be denied official record. If you think otherwise, just try to get away with some kind of non-standard game setting (suggestion: try Coin mode) and see what the TO has to say about it.

I think it's clear that you are incapable of seeing things any other way but your own, so I'll leave you to your thread. I wash myself of this weirdness.

Feel free to leave your claims unverified.
When making a logical argument into a simple debate then the choice is either fight or flight.
When debating with weak grounding flight is usually the last resort (washed).

it's pretty stupid to have a sole set for any Mii because there is not a single best set.
I play 1122 or 2122 with Brawler depending on the MU.

Or in this case: Extremely biased.
Why try to force everyone to emulate you? I don't play that set.

There is absolutely no way to set a "best set" in Stone. They should just be free..

Get to changing the ruling. Good luck.

One set that is almost it's best or it's best is at least a compromise if it would be 1111 otherwise.

Who compromised for all the Mii players? Did all of them compromise? Did we all say that is what we wanted?
No, it's not a compromise, it's just setting someone up to be a dictator.

Miitler wants you "compromised" along with the jews​

I don't understand your point about dictatorship. It was discussed in the Mii Fighter Skype Group and it was agreed upon.

All that power going to your head if you can't understand why unilateral decisions enforced on everyone that is obviously biased towards the one who gets the ruling changed is not obviously an overreaching fascist draconian measure.
Please play as Miitler.

 

[wizrad]

You're being a little too aggressive right now. It's not his fault. Yikarur wasn't involved with the ruling at all, as far as I know. He just was asked by the TO to determine the set. Do any of us agree with the ruling? No. Did we try to make the best of it? Yeah. I think we did a pretty good job, considering almost every Brawler main runs something ending in 122. I don't, but I know most do.

Edit: Also Donald Trump wants to 'compromise' with Muslims, but he's not a good Mii pun.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't understand why making Mii sets with guest Miis isn't the standard.

I can understand not making Miis for every single combination or allowing personal Miis, but making a Mii takes like 20 seconds which is less than changing controls usually. I'm not sure why it's actually an issue.

If you want a standard.... It's right there.... Simple and easy to do and it doesn't even take a minute.

 

[wizrad]

The people who want a standard want one set per Mii, which is pretty close to unfeasible.

 

[san.]

I just can't understand why anything other than a time limit for setting up your name / character is needed. That solves everthing with the smallest effort (none from the TO outside of getting people to start their games). Balance doesn't seem like a concern at all.

 

[T0MMY]

You're being a little too aggressive right now. It's not his fault. Yikarur wasn't involved with the ruling at all, as far as I know. He just was asked by the TO to determine the set. Do any of us agree with the ruling? No. Did we try to make the best of it? Yeah. I think we did a pretty good job, considering almost every Brawler main runs something ending in 122. I don't, but I know most do.

Edit: Also Donald Trump wants to 'compromise' with Muslims, but he's not a good Mii pun.

Yeah, the previous post wasn't to be taken 100% seriously. But the general sentiment is still there about arbitrary moveset restrictions. Yikarur should have told the TO to take his nazi-like rulings back to 1940's Germany where they might have some kind of support >:^|
We want Tournament Organizers, not Tournament Dictators!

And I cannot think of a good pun for Donal Trump. Miitler was already a stretch as it was X^D

I don't understand why making Mii sets with guest Miis isn't the standard.

If you want a standard.... It's right there.... Simple and easy to do and it doesn't even take a minute.

That's not a standard, that's an arbitrary ruling that the Mii community by and large not only does not support but generally stands against. It violates competitive principles, it's really not simple, and it would presume that getting any kind of "standard" is the entire goal (it's not); additionally, your definition of "standard" may differ from what a standard may be in actual competitive practice.

All in all, we don't just want a "standard", we simply want to use our characters to their potential as competitive creed requires - every character should be exploited to their fullest and analyzed properly. Mii fighters have NOT been given this fair and formal opportunity in a competitive field, so it is the duty to every competitive player to allow them to be used to their fullest for proper analysis before any out-of-game rulings are made (at least for a reasonably short time). That is all.

EDIT: Can't believe I get a warning here for posting a picture of Miitler, such irony.
Also, my post for the Miinald Trump was deleted X^D

 

[N7Kopper]

It's just worth noting - as an aside - that the game actually does consider 1111 as the default, "true" moveset for Mii Fighters. This can be seen in Event mode, where Brawler, Sword Fighter, and Gunner are restricted to these moves regardless of the player's choices unless Customizations are turned on.

In other game modes, Mii Fighters simply have an arbitrary hardcoded special case exempting them from the equally arbitrary restrictions.

As a customs lover (who ironically mains 1111 Shulk, Robin, and Olimar) these arbitrary restrictions really get on my nerves. Thank goodness for homebrew save editors making it far easier to set up matches where every character has all their tools available to them.

I really have no dog in this race, but I can fully understand both sides... but not the people who just hate the Mii Fighters outright.
One side wants the characters to use their customs when nobody else can, since the developers intended them to, and they've never overly dominated tournaments even with this advantage.
The other side either hate customs on principle, or just think they're too hard to get working logistically, and don't want anyone to have arbitrary advantages outside of the normal game framework, and refute the idea of customs as a Mii Fighter gimmick on the basis that every non-DLC character has them, but just not the aforementioned hardcoded special case.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Palutena's customs were treated exactly the same as the Mii Fighters' ones, not just in pre-release trailers, but even in the loading screen tips. She can't use them without the players actually enabling the settings. Think of that what you will.

Papa Sakurai plz just give us all our customs to edit on the CSS like Street Fighter Ultras

 

[T0MMY]

It's just worth noting - as an aside - that the game actually does consider 1111 as the default, "true" moveset for Mii Fighters. This can be seen in Event mode, where Brawler, Sword Fighter, and Gunner are restricted to these moves regardless of the player's choices unless Customizations are turned on.

I think I'll do everyone a favor and shoot this down (every time it's brought up):
Extra-competitive modes do NOT make a precedent to formulate rules.
If you want to use this logic then be prepared to support the argument that you can only use the A button in Melee because there's an extra-competitive mode that only allows the A button to be used (One Button Mode).
Reducing the Extra-competitive Mode Argument to its core produces ridiculous consequences.
I am not prepared to support such an argument, and I'm hard-pressed to find anyone who would, competitively.

In other game modes, Mii Fighters simply have an arbitrary hardcoded special case exempting them from the equally arbitrary restrictions.

In other words: This is the rule of the game, and the one event in an off-mode is the exception.
There's no cherry-picking allowed here:
Which mode do we use for competition?
That mode is our starting point for rules and any change in those rules must be born of sound reasoning (not cherry picked).

One side wants the characters to use their customs when nobody else can, since the developers intended them to, and they've never overly dominated tournaments even with this advantage.

If the "one side" you are speaking of is the Mii supporters, then this is grossly inaccurate.
The argument is not about using "customs" (whatever that is) when nobody else can, it is about holding the TOs and competitors to their competitive creed: That the game must be played to its fullest potential given the principles of competition we use.

Yes, I argue that the Mii fighters can (and maybe should) be banned in a legit competition - but we won't know if they should until they are allowed to reach their potential which would be expected under the competitive practices. And since there's a violation of this competitive code then we are up in arms about it. Ban/restrict the Mii as much as possible, but do it with the same respect everything else that has been banned/restricted with!

EDIT: It's worth noting that Palutena's customs were treated exactly the same as the Mii Fighters' ones, not just in pre-release trailers, but even in the loading screen tips. She can't use them without the players actually enabling the settings. Think of that what you will.

Completely contradictory here:

To say that Palutena's "customs" were treated "exactly" the same as the Mii Fighters'...
And then say "She can't use them without the players actually enabling the settings." <= here's the contradiction

The contradiction is that Mii fighters are fully functional with Custom Fighters "Off" (I assume this is "the settings") - the exception, obviously, is the custom equipment.
This is not the case for Palutena. Her Custom Moves are disabled with Custom Fighters "Off" (as well as her Custom Equipment)

Case in point: Palutena is not treated exactly the same as Mii fighters.

This is why bringing Palutena into the discussion is a cardinal sin.
Please refrain from violating our sacred house of Smash with this sinful action, it would be most appreciated.

Papa Sakurai plz just give us all our customs to edit on the CSS like Street Fighter Ultras

Ultra Moves seem to be intended for use competitively - out of the box fighter with history of tournament design.
Custom Moves seem to be intended "For Fun" (non-competitive) - unlocked by mini-games in extra-competitive modes and shared to/from the 3DS to help promote cross-platform interaction to drive sales for the Wii U from the more successful 3DS user base.

I see it a difficult position to argue their value in competition.
Even the ultra moves in USF4 is a stretch to argue for competitive value...

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Yikarur]

How are you seriously able to compare in-game necessities with personal belongings?
That point is completely insane.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Yikarur]

First of all, no one is advocating for owning a 3DS to be an "in-game necessity" as you say, and I'm really not sure where you got that idea. Are you saying that allowing Mii Fighters in a tournament somehow causes all non-3DS owning competitors to be disqualified?

It is a necissity to play a character. You have to pay 200$ to play the character in tourney.

Secondly, I was responding to the argument from earlier in the thread that 3DSes are "non-free external hardware", and thus would grant an unfair advantage to those players who can afford them against players who can't afford them, so they shouldn't be allowed to be used.

You need this advice to play a character that you would otherwise not be able to. Of course this is an "unfair advantage" because if you do not own that advice you cannot play the character.

Clearly eyeglasses and headphones are also "non-free external hardware" that would fall under this same logic and would have to be banned as well.

This doesn't make sense at all. Stop talking about logic because there is none. I'm not even going to explain this to you because this is so stupid on so many levels, that I really don't want to bother myself with that anymore.

And though they're not "hardware", the same point would have to be extended to DLC characters too: if it's unfair to allow usage of a 3DS during a tournament since not everyone can afford one, then it must also unfair to use DLC characters in tournaments because not everyone can afford to buy them, so only rich kids can main them.

You don't need to buy DLCs to play them in tournament. (and lol comparing 5$ to 200$)

 

[san.]

It is a necissity to play a character. You have to pay 200$ to play the character in tourney

Still confused on why you think it's a necessity.

• The Mii size that you want may already exist in your game.
• An alternate size that may not be 100% what you want may exist on your system (you can generally tell the weight and height of the mii from a glance at their picture upon selection when creating a fighter).
  
• You are free to use 50/50 on any system if you are unable to acquire the size you want.

It helps prevent the "worst case scenario" of using 50/50. At locals, you have a better opportunity to have accessible Miis on all setups. At nationals where you may have to travel, you may be able to set up the Wii Us in your pool and the stream setup if you're lucky, but you always have 50/50 available regardless.

The alternative is to have 50/50 forced on everyone no matter what.

It's also not an unfair advantage since people are capable of practicing against Miis on their own time at home. If you happen to have a 3DS, it's not unfair to the other Mii players at the same tournament since you can just hand them your 3DS.

A time limit for setting up your character removes all middleman complications and resolves the core issues.

 

[Yikarur]

I'd rather have a consistent game and a consistent main. The competition should be equal for everyone on every tournament set-up and not randomly depending on what is on the WiiU.

 

[Masky]

It is a necissity to play a character. You have to pay 200$ to play the character in tourney.

1. You originally said that allowing Mii Fighters into tournaments would turn 3DS ownership into a "necessity". This is wrong because someone playing as an uploaded Mii Fighter does not somehow cause any other player's options to be restricted. While a 3DS would be necessary to upload a non-50/50 Mii Fighter, anyone without a 3DS can still play as any of the other (better) characters in the game such Sheik, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, etc. Also, as San pointed out, it's also still possible to use any of the 50/50 Mii Fighters without a 3DS.
   
   There's also one other thing that San didn't point out: If you upload a Mii Fighter to the system, both you AND your opponent now have access to that uploaded Mii Fighter as a character choice. Because of this, two opponents will ALWAYS have the exact same character options available to them for a match, which makes it literally impossible for a player to ever get any kind of character choice advantage in a tournament match due to 3DS ownership.
   
   The main thing here is that allowing Mii Fighters does not restrict players' options at all. Actually, it does the opposite: it opens up new options for all players!
   
   
2. Why do you say someone would pay $200? Where are you getting this number from? Are these US Dollars we are talking about here?
   
   Nintendo-refurbished 2DSes cost $60. Used copies of Smash for 3DS go for about $30 on Amazon right now. So if someone wants to become a non-50/50 Mii Fighter main, they could easily get away with only spending about $90 maximum. And this cost is only going to continue to decrease over time as more and more used 3DSes and used copies of Smash 4 are out there.
   
   By the way, this is all assuming that the player in question doesn't already own a 3DS or the 3DS version of the game. As it turns out, many people already own these things and for those who do there would be no additional cost.

This doesn't make sense at all. Stop talking about logic because there is none. I'm not even going to explain this to you because this is so stupid on so many levels, that I really don't want to bother myself with that anymore.

Actually, it does make sense. It's exactly the same thing. YOU are the one who is not making sense at all.

Here's another example: Wii U Pro Controllers. Wii U Pro Controllers cost $50 and have more buttons on them than GameCube controllers do, giving those who can afford that $50 more options for controlling their character during a match. If Mii Fighters are to be banned because of the financial concerns, then Wii U Pro Controllers would have to be banned as well.

You don't need to buy DLCs to play them in tournament. (and lol comparing 5$ to 200$)

What I meant was that in order to seriously main them you need to be able to practice on your own system with them, which means you need to buy the DLC.

 

[Jams.]

Still confused on why you think it's a necessity.

• The Mii size that you want may already exist in your game.
• An alternate size that may not be 100% what you want may exist on your system (you can generally tell the weight and height of the mii from a glance at their picture upon selection when creating a fighter).
  
• You are free to use 50/50 on any system if you are unable to acquire the size you want.

It helps prevent the "worst case scenario" of using 50/50. At locals, you have a better opportunity to have accessible Miis on all setups. At nationals where you may have to travel, you may be able to set up the Wii Us in your pool and the stream setup if you're lucky, but you always have 50/50 available regardless.

The alternative is to have 50/50 forced on everyone no matter what.

It's also not an unfair advantage since people are capable of practicing against Miis on their own time at home. If you happen to have a 3DS, it's not unfair to the other Mii players at the same tournament since you can just hand them your 3DS.

A time limit for setting up your character removes all middleman complications and resolves the core issues.

I'm concerned about the logistics and implementation of a time limit for setting up your character.

What are the consequences if someone fails to set up their character within the allotted time? It's not like handwarmers or coaching where you can cut it off and start the game. What if they're in Mii Maker or setting up their controls? Do they forfeit the set? That seems rather severe. Do you force them to start the set without controls or their character? That seems like a cruel and unusual punishment.

I also don't think it's easily enforceable. With handwarmers, there is a clock in game which either player can use to enforce the time limit. This is not the case with character creation to my knowledge. Are there going to be timers at each station? Does one of the competitors need to use their watch or phone? Also, when would you start timing someone? There's no real signal as to when character creation begins like there is with handwarmers. Auxiliary rules like this also usually get broken if no officials are around; for instance, I know players used wireless controllers at EVO.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Make it an expectation. Lay down an amount of time that is reasonable, and if your opponent is taking too long to make their Mii, raise a concern. If they persist in being slow, call a judge over to watch and enforce the time.

Most of the time I suspect Mii players will be reasonably prompt if an expectation is articulated beforehand. "You've got 3 minutes to make your Miis, get going." They'll do it.

 

[san.]

What Pegasus Knight said. I was thinking it would be on the onus of the opponent and raise the concern there. I notice that larger tournaments have someone else act as the manager of a pool instead of whoever's first seed. That kind of thing helps, too.

 

[T0MMY]

I'd rather have a consistent game and a consistent main. The competition should be equal for everyone on every tournament set-up and not randomly depending on what is on the WiiU.

You've stated this or similar reasoning before and it seems like your stance has not changed, so I will try to help you out with how the rest of us may see your argument and why we, or at least I, who hold to Competitive principles may disagree:

Translations of your statement
"I'd rather" = opinion (not a logically-derived conclusion, thus not compelling).
"Consistent" = forced restriction without reason.
"Should be equal" = an expectation of a game you personally attempt to balance backed by personal opinion rather than valid reason.
"for everyone" = enforcing rules onto others whether they agree to them or not.
"not randomly depending on what is on the Wii U" = Does not understand that no Mii could be "random", that each Mii created on a Wii U system would have to have been purposefully and intentionally created by the will of its creator.

You see, when rulecrafting, some of us may start with principles, that rules for competition are not mere opinion and should not be shaped by the whim of a single person.

Rules must be agreed upon by the competitors. If you are asking us to agree to abide by your rules and if we refuse then you do not have a competition at all.

I translated the above for your benefit, and cannot logically agree to it, competitively speaking.
I offer you this:

Rules are logically-derived from axiomatic principles and born of sound reasoning.

Your choice if you want to accept that or stay with the opinions. If you accept, then we may have a proper discussion. If refused, then the conversation ends and we go our separate ways with the best we can do.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

What Pegasus Knight said. I was thinking it would be on the onus of the opponent and raise the concern there.

My sole concern with this is malicious reporting by anti-Mii players who might just shout for a judge the very moment they sit down for the set. "You're taking too long!" "We literally just sat down five sec--" "Judge!" "Oh for..." "My opponent is delaying the set and taking too long to make their Miis!"

I can see that happening.

 

[T0MMY]

My sole concern with this is malicious reporting by anti-Mii players who might just shout for a judge the very moment they sit down for the set. "You're taking too long!" "We literally just sat down five sec--" "Judge!" "Oh for..." "My opponent is delaying the set and taking too long to make their Miis!"

I can see that happening.

Yeah, I don't put anything past competitors. This may be the reason we are having issues using the Mii to begin with.
A simple and general rule stating "5 minutes to get to the setup assigned" and "5 minutes to prepare for you match" should be fine. After 5 minutes a referee may then be called over and assess the situation, like make a call for warning of DQ (a final 5 minutes). Maybe not these exact numbers and procedures, but this is an example of something very solid and if accepted by the competitors then there should be no issues.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Miis get one set each, just like everyone else. I'm fine with that set being something other than 1111 as long as Sakurai is clearly not trying to balance them to be viable under said conditions, but the Mii ____ you practice against to learn the MU needs to be the same build as everyone else's. There's no reason to make learning Mii matchups inherently more burdensome than learning normal MUs, regardless of their strength in the metagame. At any rate it would probably be best to wait until patches are done before considering such a standard. Once said standard is created, everyone learns to play and play against the standard. If 1111 Miis were remotely balanced there would be no reason to really consider going through the trouble to give them additional options denied to the rest of the cast.

 

[wizrad]

Sounds like you're not willing to put in the time and effort necessary to be a top competitor.

But seriously, that's not a real, logical reason for banning alternate specials. "I don't wanna have to learn it" is not a competitive mindset. If you wanted to ban Miis for being a massive anomaly and for taking extra time to set up, that would make more sense. But "I don't wanna" is not sufficient, just as it isn't good enough reason to not pay your taxes.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sounds like you're not willing to put in the time and effort necessary to be a top competitor.

But seriously, that's not a real, logical reason for banning alternate specials. "I don't wanna have to learn it" is not a competitive mindset. If you wanted to ban Miis for being a massive anomaly and for taking extra time to set up, that would make more sense. But "I don't wanna" is not sufficient, just as it isn't good enough reason to not pay your taxes.

We've got almost 60 matchups in this game as is. That's plenty of work. Plus, the problem isn't that it's hard to learn all the competitive variation of a custom character, it's that no other character presents those same challenges or gets the same advantages of custom moves. I'd gladly take the time to learn every one of your beloved Mii customs if I could use customs myself. Giving Miis the option of using their best set is an act of charity because Sakurai isn't balancing their 1111 sets to be viable. Freedom to customize movesets needs to be all or nothing. If you learn the MU for my character you only have to learn one set while I have to learn all viable sets. How is that fair? I'm only saying that I'm willing to learn the same number of movesets for your character as you have to for my character. Treating this proposed ruleset-created advantage as a "special ability" comparable to Sheik's needles or whatever is entirely absurd, because learning how to deal with Sheik's tools is fundamentally the same as learning how to deal with any other character's toolkit, while customizable movesets are an entirely unique dynamic that isn't comparable at all to strong character tools. If we're doing locked movesets, they need to be locked for everyone, and if we're doing custom sets they need to be available to everyone. We're stuck in the unfortunate position of having to come up with an arbitrary solution because Sakurai clearly didn't put any thought into Miis and customs as far as competitive play goes, so I'm willing to make concessions in order to allow Miis to be functional competitive characters, but full customization is something they really shouldn't get in a customs-off meta.

 

[Yikarur]

Mii's should be played as given by the game or be banned completely.
but because we don't want to ban a character, they should be allowed freely.
Special sets are as arbitrary as 1111 and should never be a thing.

Their base moveset is the same so you have 58 match-ups in this game with 3 characters that have kinda varying specials. Thats not too different to playing against 2 different pac-man. It's just like a different playing style. Most will play similar sets anyway because they are the best. In praxis, the variation will be pretty small. A metagame with variations will always settle to the best options.

We don't need an arbitrary solution, we just go with the non-arbitrary one and use them as intended and as provided by the game's system.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

We've got almost 60 matchups in this game as is. That's plenty of work. Plus, the problem isn't that it's hard to learn all the competitive variation of a custom character, it's that no other character presents those same challenges or gets the same advantages of custom moves. I'd gladly take the time to learn every one of your beloved Mii customs if I could use customs myself. Giving Miis the option of using their best set is an act of charity because Sakurai isn't balancing their 1111 sets to be viable. Freedom to customize movesets needs to be all or nothing. If you learn the MU for my character you only have to learn one set while I have to learn all viable sets. How is that fair? I'm only saying that I'm willing to learn the same number of movesets for your character as you have to for my character. Treating this proposed ruleset-created advantage as a "special ability" comparable to Sheik's needles or whatever is entirely absurd, because learning how to deal with Sheik's tools is fundamentally the same as learning how to deal with any other character's toolkit, while customizable movesets are an entirely unique dynamic that isn't comparable at all to strong character tools. If we're doing locked movesets, they need to be locked for everyone, and if we're doing custom sets they need to be available to everyone. We're stuck in the unfortunate position of having to come up with an arbitrary solution because Sakurai clearly didn't put any thought into Miis and customs as far as competitive play goes, so I'm willing to make concessions in order to allow Miis to be functional competitive characters, but full customization is something they really shouldn't get in a customs-off meta.

While I don't completely agree with the amount of matchups being an issue I do think the way you want to treat this locked set thing is fair. However, this does bring it's own issues. As in, it's tough to decide one true set for a character, not everyone agrees on which set is the most viable. Also, who would decide which set would be the one true set? I suppose these things are all fixable but they should be thought about.

Mii's should be played as given by the game or be banned completely.
but because we don't want to ban a character, they should be allowed freely.
Special sets are as arbitrary as 1111 and should never be a thing.

Their base moveset is the same so you have 58 match-ups in this game with 3 characters that have kinda varying specials. Thats not too different to playing against 2 different pac-man. It's just like a different playing style. Most will play similar sets anyway because they are the best. In praxis, the variation will be pretty small. A metagame with variations will always settle to the best options.

We don't need an arbitrary solution, we just go with the non-arbitrary one and use them as intended and as provided by the game's system.

There's a lot of flaws with that way of thinking, "using things as the game intended" would mean we'd all be playing time matches or three stocks or whatever else you would decide would be "what they intended". It would also mean Mii's and Palutena would be able to any move they want as the game acknowledges their customs as part of their characters (looking at the game info system and trophies here).

Also, just because some people would gravitate towards a similar set does not make a good argument against customs, there are some actual legitimate arguments to be made against customs (though there are plenty of threads by now that have weighed the pro's and cons of different approaches to customs and how they more than offset most arguments). Most importantly, it's a fact that customs have a net gain of variety in high level play which by itself is worth fighting for.

Sadly, many people are irrational by nature, either going against customs because they're afraid of change, can't be bothered to put in extra work or just plain against it because their own characters don't benefit as much from customs despite the increase of meta health on average.

 

[Yikarur]

There's a lot of flaws with that way of thinking, "using things as the game intended" would mean we'd all be playing time matches or three stocks or whatever else you would decide would be "what they intended". It would also mean Mii's and Palutena would be able to any move they want as the game acknowledges their customs as part of their characters (looking at the game info system and trophies here).

with "intended" I'm not talking about "how to play the game" but "how the character is implemented into the game".
I'm not talking about arbitrary chosen rules. I'm not talking about the backround the character was developed with.
I'm just talking objectively about "how the game handles it". We decide the settings we play under and everything in the realm of those settings should be allowed providing equal footing for all set-ups.
Palutena is not playable with custom moves with Custom Fighter's set to off so she completely falls out of the equation. Mii Fighter is playable as created. This is the only non-arbitrary way to allow them and Rulesets should pursue such thinking.

 

[wizrad]

no other character […] gets the same advantages of custom moves.

Stopped reading right there. You know, if you had at least educated yourself on this topic before arguing, you'd know that it is a fact that Mii Fighters do not have any custom moves. This is not up for debate. Donald Trump is a serious competitor for president right now because people don't care about the truth, only what pleases them, and that is exactly what it seems like is happening here. If I'm wrong and the rest of your post is well-informed and accurate, please correct me and I'll read it through, but I'm not going to entertain these "BUT I DONT GET CUSTOMS" shenanigans anymore.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Stopped reading right there. You know, if you had at least educated yourself on this topic before arguing, you'd know that it is a fact that Mii Fighters do not have any custom moves. This is not up for debate. Donald Trump is a serious competitor for president right now because people don't care about the truth, only what pleases them, and that is exactly what it seems like is happening here. If I'm wrong and the rest of your post is well-informed and accurate, please correct me and I'll read it through, but I'm not going to entertain these "BUT I DONT GET CUSTOMS" shenanigans anymore.

Miis have nothing but custom moves. They don't have defaults and were never really designed for conventional tournament play, which is one of two reasons why they aren't allowed in For Glory. It just so happens that they can be made to work in conventional tournament play and doing so is better for the game, but if they do it should be under the condition that they effectively function as conventional characters, meaning that they all need to be the same size and have the same moveset.