Where the Mii Fighters stand currently - rulings & Genesis 3

[T0MMY]

Issues on Rulings
I recently saw a post advertising a tournament in Vegas. Being interested in traveling to Vegas again sometime in the near future I checked it out and saw a ruling instating a Mii moveset restriction which restricts all Mii fighters to only the "1" special for each special choice when building an original fighter.

When I asked the reasoning behind this the TO responded saying it was a "standard" in Vegas and also a "standard" for Genesis 3 (which I have yet to see this ruling, if someone could link me to the ruling I'd appreciate it).

Obviously this ruling of "standards" is a logical fallacy (click spoiler to see the rather dry understanding of why it is fallacy)

Spoiler

I believe Bear is a TO at both Genesis and Vegas, so to say the reason for his decision is derived from his reason behind his decision is circular reasoning (it "begs the question").
To say that the reason behind the decision is because it was a standard in Vegas then becomes an issue of argument ad traditionalis (just because it was used before does not mean it makes sense logically - i.e. if it was logically wrong before then it is still logically wrong every time, whether it was used in tournament or not!).

I understand fallacies like the above to be too weak to support a consequentially-true competitive Standard - that is a Standard is something that can stand on logical grounding; being a minimum of two truth-functionally true statements entailing a true conclusion. Truth creates standards, not fallacy!

Considering the creed that all out-of-game rulings shall be born of sound reasoning derived by logical consequence of Competitive Principles (that the very core foundation of competition directs us on our rulings, not our mere opinions), I would still like to take the opportunity to express my understanding that the majority of players surveyed want to see the moveset restrictions on the Mii fighters lifted (will have to find the source on this soon, will edit ASAP, if someone could provide a link I'd be most grateful).
This means that lifting any moveset-restriction that may be in place adheres to a stronger Standard than the one which is based on fallacy (ad traditionalis/begs the question), but also enjoys the support of the vast majority of the Community.
Restrictions/bans shall only be instated when warranted!

To paraphrase a common law of the land saying:

Innocent until proven broken.​

How the ruling affects the Community
As a former Mii fighter main I have corresponding with many players in-person along the west coast and spoke online with global Mii players. By far and large we, the Mii community, see TOs who effectively ban our characters from their events as being exclusionary, that we are being ostracized from the Smash Community just because we chose the wrong character only due to a vocal minority shouting out loud that they don't think our characters are iconic enough like Mario, Link, or Pikachu; perhaps more competitively-inclined players will take any opportunity to gain an advantage so banning characters without warrant is not their prerogative (competition brings out the worst in some).

We know our characters are not "broken", they do not cause logistical issues, and nowhere do we see the logic behind banning "customs" since they are called "original fighters" not custom fighters (+ the game designers allow for the choice in moves with customs "off" at the same time disabling custom Equipment).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our characters other than a few high-profile competitors (not to name names) may make up the body of "vocal minority" who complain that maybe one build of one type of Mii may subjectively be "ridiculous" (post hoc reasoning to justify the prejudged ban giving them an advantage). At which case the TO needs to step in and stand by competitive principles - this is what is called having "scruples".

Why lifting the Moveset Restriction is logistically safe
For a tournament the size of Genesis 3, I would estimate about 4 to 6 Mii Fighters players, which will be logistically inconsequential knowing that each and every one of the Mii players will be trustworthy and responsible with their characters.
On smaller-scale tournaments the consequence is virtually non-existent.

As a guarantee, a ruling stating the Smash Bros. game shall not be taken offline can be enforced - this is a good rule in general anyway, if you think about it, but it also ensures nobody will use the Mii Maker for Miis as well.
Additionally, a Guest-only ruling is generally acceptable to most of the community and begrudgingly to the Mii plyaers as well: Only Guest-based Mii fighters are allowed for competition; all character changes with Mii follow same rulings as any other character changes (e.g. counterpicks).

And of course, it is expected that the Mii players will most likely not make it very far in the brackets (they are generally not very competitively viable). The chances of these players being able to cause any significant issues whatsoever is highly unlikely. Compare the chances that someone spends too long deiliberating over their Mii choice to something like the use of wireless controllers which must be synced/desynced/resynced and can cause a huge deal more headache for TO's due to their ability to interrupt competition with improper syncing... and yet they are still allowed.

The maximum issue a Mii player could cause not only is inconsequential, but also does not compound any further issues; in fact Mii players will generally be some of the most prompt to get to their setup in order to make sure they have their character they want to play ready to go before their opponent has time to sync their controller, enter their name, remap their buttons, do their hand-warmers, and strike stages.

Conclusion
Nearly every issue with the Mii fighters is addressed, obviously the advantages greatly outweigh any possible issues with the only issue a TO has to deal with is employing a "backbone" to stand up to any of the vocal minority crying about the inclusion of three lower-tier characters that they should "git gud" and learn the matchup instead of expecting the TO to help them win with unreasonable out-of-game rulings.

Just a small minority caused the effective Mii ban at Paragon, which was a sad loss to our community, but the good news is the vocal minority was shot down at MLG (shoutouts to Chibo); so all eyes are on Genesis 3 TOs to push for the rights of all Smashers no matter how iconic their character may or may not be; this event can change the course of Smash 4 to be inclusive and enjoyable for all
Do the TO's have what it takes to do what is competitively and community demanded or will they pander to the vocal minority?

Please do what is right for the Smash Community.

#FreeMii
#Miivolution

 

[Raijinken]

As per this source, Genesis 3 rules are still TBD on November 29, 2015. Thus, for clarity, pressuring the TO in question for a direct source may work more quickly.

Alas, the Smash community does not bother itself, on the whole, about fallacy. If they perceive it as a standard, then short of EVO and MLG's willingness to back their defiance with a relevant prize pool, the "standard" will hold.

 

[Runic_SSB]

This kind of stuff is why I'm mostly just done with this community. "Innocent until proven broken" means nothing to these people anymore. Any time anything remotely game-breaking comes by, there's always a call for a ban. The last straw for me was that whole spat when Diddy Kong was banned for his grab immunity glitch (even though, in order to use it, you would've had to literally never shield, which made it pretty much worthless). I know it only lasted a week, but it was still really telling of how pathetically the community handles these kinds of situations.

 

[Raijinken]

This kind of stuff is why I'm mostly just done with this community. "Innocent until proven broken" means nothing to these people anymore. Any time anything remotely game-breaking comes by, there's always a call for a ban. The last straw for me was that whole spat when Diddy Kong was banned for his grab immunity glitch (even though, in order to use it, you would've had to literally never shield, which made it pretty much worthless). I know it only lasted a week, but it was still really telling of how pathetically the community handles these kinds of situations.

The Diddy ban didn't even stick, or happen to begin with past discussion, in most places I saw (could be wrong), but there's also a difference between an easy-to-execute glitch which defies standard interaction. I know the one rule NC's power ranking crew made that I actually agreed with was letting TOs decide for themselves whether it was bannable or not.

Miis are utterly different. They aren't glitchy (even the One-Inch Punch was not a glitch, merely a knockback oversight), overpowered, or anything else that warrants a ban. They're just Miis.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's worth pointing out that the 1111 compromise is about as respectful and logically sound as the three-fifths compromise.

 

[Sonicninja115]

At worst Mii's are going to do great at Genesis and everyone is going to cry for a ban. at best, nothing will change for another year.

 

[wizrad]

Mew2King is the only Mii with any potential to make a splash right now, unless either DaPuffster comes out of nowhere or San makes a hero out of his Gunner. There are no Mii players able to win anything significant right now. Genesis is just more spit in our faces.

 

[T0MMY]

As per this source, Genesis 3 rules are still TBD on November 29, 2015. Thus, for clarity, pressuring the TO in question for a direct source may work more quickly.

Alas, the Smash community does not bother itself, on the whole, about fallacy. If they perceive it as a standard, then short of EVO and MLG's willingness to back their defiance with a relevant prize pool, the "standard" will hold.

I did ask the TO in question. When there was no response I posted another question which specified and asked for a "prompt and professional" response. No response yet.
I feel like any more pressuring and I'll run the risk of cutting communication due to them being bothered too much.
However, I think I can enjoy the cryptic silence as it just makes it look like these kinds of arbitrary rulings don't even merit a discussion XD

 

[FSLink]

Mew2King is the only Mii with any potential to make a splash right now, unless either DaPuffster comes out of nowhere or San makes a hero out of his Gunner. There are no Mii players able to win anything significant right now. Genesis is just more spit in our faces.

I'd feel like more Mii players could be around....but with the different moveset rules, it's a liability to main them. Why put in the time if it ends up you can't use your character at a tournament you go to later?

 

[Ajimi]

I'm glad that you are in the backroom Thinkaman . I know the BR main goal is not to create a hypothetic "universal ruleset", but even in order to built a tier list and a matchup chart, Miis will have to be seriously discussed one day or another.

Anyway, here and here are very good posts on the subject.
I honestly think the MLG rules are the only ones to really make sense. They are built with the game as a base, and with competitive and sound reasoning behind. Additionally, it's a nice "subjective" compromise I think acceptable for everyone. My line of thought is this :

1. Start your game.
2. If things are uncompetitive, alter in-game settings.
3. If things are still uncompetitive, add an external rule.
4. If an organisational problem occurs during tournaments, adapt :
-4.1 by altering in-game settings first,
-4.2 by adding an external rule if needed.

Every rule in a competitive ruleset can be put inside those steps. Items are turned off in 2 (random), the stagelist is formed in 3 (camping, hazards & co), the timer added in 4.1 (to not overblown tournament length), the striking procedure created in 4.2 (it has no in-game existence, but we need a fair and quick way to choose the first stage played on), all based on the vanilla game in 1.
The "custom" setting is turned off in 4.1, mainly for logistical reasons. Note that turning it off is enough to solve our problems, we do not need to go in a philosophical debate on what the word "custom" means or what the developers intent was, and we do not need to ban them (the same way we simply turn items off and not ban characters who can still spawn them).

1. I start my game, custom setting on "off", Miis are completely free.
2. Irrelevant since no in-game settings can affect them.
3. Being able to change moves in the middle of a set during counterpicking gives them an advantage over other characters. It allows to adapt only a part of the moveset of the character you are playing (for example a reflector against a projectile user), which increases the character versatility, reduces the possibilities of hard-counters and thus reduces the need of a secondary character. For this reason, it is more competitively fair to allow only one moveset (per type of Mii) per game set, chosen by the player at the beginning of said set. Note that the only problem was the possibility to adapt the moveset mid-set, not the free choice of the moves themselves.
4.
-4.1 Like step 2, irrelevant.
-4.2 Changing weight and size can pose a problem in tournaments. You either have to quit the game, launch the Mii editor, create the Mii you want, and relaunch Smash (which takes a tremendous amount of time) ; or to decide on a limited set of arbitrary-chosen weight/size combinations and create them in advance on all setups ; or to rely on Mii transfert from a 3DS (which in turn pose the problem of having said 3DS, having enough of them, and simply the fact that this requires a non-free external hardware). For these reasons, Miis should be limited to guest Miis only, which have their weight/size standardized and are present on all Wii U by default.

And bam, MLG rules. Nowhere I needed to limit the choice of Miis moveset itself. I have yet to see a similar reasoning from the anti-Mii side, using only competitive values and exempt of any subjective point ("but the 'custom' word", "developers intended to", "why not X character"…) that demonstrates the need to go against the game internal mechanics with such limitation.

 

[T0MMY]

I honestly think the MLG rules are the only ones to really make sense. They are built with the game as a base, and with competitive and sound reasoning behind.

I would say MLG is a good starting point for a compromise to an ultimatum, but I would not go nearly so far as to say they are the only ones to really make sense. When you say "sense", I am inclined to assume it means they are rational and can be logically derived from our beliefs of competition. I also assume the reasoning was provided later in your post, as follows:

My line of thought is this :

1. Start your game.
2. If things are uncompetitive, alter in-game settings.
3. If things are still uncompetitive, add an external rule.
4. If an organisational problem occurs during tournaments, adapt :
-4.1 by altering in-game settings first,
-4.2 by adding an external rule if needed.

Every rule in a competitive ruleset can be put inside those steps.

I actually do start of agreeing with you for the most part. However, I would be wary of completely supporting these statements as they are right now, that is until some clarification is provided. Namely, definitions. The definition of "uncompetitive" can be so modular that any scrub can point at any facet of the game and say "uncompetitive!" now that excuses any out-of-game rulings to be applied as per 3. A simple way I stated the same postulation is through one of the four principles of competition: Software Authority. The game defines how a competition proceeds, and, yes, the competitors can redefine the process but only within the confines of a warrant. A warrant is issued based both on consensus of the competitors and upon proper analysis of the issue at hand.

I don't think your intent was to get down to the very minuscule details, so I presume we would probably be agreeing what is "uncompetitive" since I have no reason to suspect either of us are scrubs. However I do love my minuscule details when posting and thought I'd add to it.
Pretty much all of what I posted are based on my Competitive Philosophy.

-4.2 Changing weight and size can pose a problem in tournaments. You either have to quit the game, launch the Mii editor, create the Mii you want, and relaunch Smash (which takes a tremendous amount of time) ; or to decide on a limited set of arbitrary-chosen weight/size combinations and create them in advance on all setups ; or to rely on Mii transfert from a 3DS (which in turn pose the problem of having said 3DS, having enough of them, and simply the fact that this requires a non-free external hardware). For these reasons, Miis should be limited to guest Miis only, which have their weight/size standardized and are present on all Wii U by default.

I disagree about the reasons to limit to guest Mii only.
A ruling can (and should, imo) be made declaring a penalty to any competitor who takes the game offline purposefully (this is an offset of pausing mid-match and also includes turning the power off, unplugging the setup, or returning to the home menu). This would mean that Mii Maker software used to create a Mii to import to the game is a violation and can be penalized (it takes way too long to do that, imo, so don't or get DQ'd).
This ruling leaves us with only Guest Mii or a 3DS upload.
You claim the 3DS poses a potential problem of 1) Having a 3DS, 2) Having enough of them, and 3) 3DS is a non-free external hardware.
However, none of these would violate competitive principles and I am unable to see these as reasons to not allow a 3DS transfer by both principle and precedents.
1) Having a 3DS is not reasonable by precedence of other hardware issues. It is not the TO's responsibility to provide anything but the bare necessity of playing the game (maybe not even that given some tournaments haha!). For instance, if I want to use a pro controller but I don't have one I can't expect the TO to give me one to play. I'd have to make do with whatever I could or forfeit my match.
2) This statement is not supported by any evidence. There is a claim that it is reason enough to not allow Mii transfers by fault of "enough" as though there is a great quantity required to upload a Mii. I believe the reality of the situation is that only one single 3DS is needed to transfer any number of Mii to any number of setups normally. The issue of "quantity" seems devoid of both reason and sense and I am going to assume is only included to be "bulk" to make an argument against 3DS uploads appear to be stronger than it actually is by... ironically, mere quantity.
3) This statement has the same issue as the first statement. By precedent alone we do not have TOs required to provide extra hardware. It is the competitors' responsibility. But this time the same argument is emphasizing "non-free" as though this has any basis in our competitions. Wii U of $350, the game of $60, and by standard we have a Gamecube Controller of $30 and an adapter for the controller anywhere from $20 to $100. There is also DLC that can be purchased (and is used in tournament) as well as some other variables about costs to play and practice the game. A $150 3DS (or $99 2DS) does not seem to be beyond reasonable means to issue a ban. In fact, the community allows the 3DS as a controller in nearly all competitions and doesn't ban them because of the cost.

By the logic you provided at the start of your post I would assume you would support Mii uploads for competition, unless you disagree with my analysis above? If there is a disagreement I'd like to see how it could be deduced to violate a principle of competition, although I could be inclined to agree by demonstration of precedent.

 

[Ajimi]

I'm sorry but I won't argue semantics with you. 99% of the time you understand very well what the wording means, and english is not my native language so I'm at a disadvantage. Thank you for not taking me for a scrub though.

This ruling leaves us with only Guest Mii or a 3DS upload.
You claim the 3DS poses a potential problem of 1) Having a 3DS, 2) Having enough of them, and 3) 3DS is a non-free external hardware.
However, none of these would violate competitive principles and I am unable to see these as reasons to not allow a 3DS transfer by both principle and precedents.
1) Having a 3DS is not reasonable by precedence of other hardware issues. It is not the TO's responsibility to provide anything but the bare necessity of playing the game (maybe not even that given some tournaments haha!). For instance, if I want to use a pro controller but I don't have one I can't expect the TO to give me one to play. I'd have to make do with whatever I could or forfeit my match.
2) This statement is not supported by any evidence. There is a claim that it is reason enough to not allow Mii transfers by fault of "enough" as though there is a great quantity required to upload a Mii. I believe the reality of the situation is that only one single 3DS is needed to transfer any number of Mii to any number of setups normally. The issue of "quantity" seems devoid of both reason and sense and I am going to assume is only included to be "bulk" to make an argument against 3DS uploads appear to be stronger than it actually is by... ironically, mere quantity.
3) This statement has the same issue as the first statement. By precedent alone we do not have TOs required to provide extra hardware. It is the competitors' responsibility. But this time the same argument is emphasizing "non-free" as though this has any basis in our competitions. Wii U of $350, the game of $60, and by standard we have a Gamecube Controller of $30 and an adapter for the controller anywhere from $20 to $100. There is also DLC that can be purchased (and is used in tournament) as well as some other variables about costs to play and practice the game. A $150 3DS (or $99 2DS) does not seem to be beyond reasonable means to issue a ban. In fact, the community allows the 3DS as a controller in nearly all competitions and doesn't ban them because of the cost.

1) I do not know what to answer to that point since you seem to agree with me. Maybe I misunderstood you though (but if I did, I think the other points will cover everything you said).

2) The quantity argument was not made to appear "bulk". Having a single 3DS is theoretically enough for any number of Miis and setups, yes. However in reality, while it can work at a local, good luck in the middle of an EVO-like tournament. If you have to run back and forth everywhere for 15 minutes because you cannot physically find the one console, or if you find it but multiple people are waiting for it before you, then yes quantity is an issue.

3) First, the fact that a 3DS is allowed to be used as a controller is irrelevant. If a player wants to use a 3DS instead of another controller then it is his choice and his responsibility to make, and he is not put at an advantage or disadvantage by doing so.
Second, the only thing a player is required to provide in a tournament is a controller. Any cost outside of that cannot be estimated or required. A family or a roommate can split the fee in multiple parts ; a player is not even required to have a Wii U if he plays only at a friend's house. So adding 100€ on top of that IS consequent.
But, the main issue is that it's unfair to Mii players. Playing any other character can be achieved with just the minimum hardware, but playing a Mii optimally in tournaments requires to buy a 3DS. Someone should not be required to put extra money to get the best of something already available in-game, just because the "wrong" character suited him. Even between Mii players, someone who can have a 3DS is at an advantage compared to someone who can't. It is clearly a pay-to-win situation. Worse, it's a pay-to-win situation artificially created by the tournament own rules, since the Mii Maker is by default present on every Wii U and could be used (but forbidden). I do not think this situation is desirable, at all.

Additionally, I'd like to add two small, but I think relevant points :
- If I remember correctly from the EVO sets discussions, the sliders for height and weight do not work the same way between the Mii Maker on Wii U and the one on 3DS. If memory serves, the number of "ticks" on the sliders are different. So even if 3DS upload is allowed by whatever means, a player can still get his character wrong (and thus be at a disadvantage), just because he didn't know an obscure feature of something completely unrelated to Smash.
- Training. It is maybe the most subjective argument I'll use in this discussion, but in my opinion we cannot expect EVERY player to know EVERY combos possibilities and specificities of EVERY height/weight combination for ALL THREE Miis including their moves variations, let alone training against them. If a kick-ass combo is found by a player who uses a very specific Mii, there is no feasible way anybody could prepare for that, while again, this issue is non-existent with any other character (including guests Miis), thus unfair advantage.

All in all, I think it is both fairer and simpler to go with guests Miis only for tournament use. But in all honesty, I would have expected the first complaint over my previous reasoning to be against the one-moveset-per-set limitation, and not 3DS upload.

 

[GS3K]

Kinda wished we just left the miis alone and waited to see if they would do anything to warrant being restricted.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I didn't read your entire post because you started talking about logic. You won't be able to convince people who are anti-Mii to agree with you by using logic because logic means nothing to people who are already illogical.

 

[smashbro29]

I think the only real issue is you have to make all the miis for event and you have to do it for every single console in the place.

That is a daunting task.

 

[vegeta18]

im not personally with nor against mii`s being able to use other special moves but at the moment it doesnt seem like that bad of an idea.

why should mii`s be able to have whatever moveset they want while all the other characters in the game have to stick with just 1(you can call them customs or original moves or whatever you want, but same stuff applies)

We already have a rule that since there would be way too many variables if you could make a mii of any size you wanted, you have to use a DEFAULT size mii , so why is it such a big deal if we say movesets have too many possible combinations that since there are way more than every character mii`s should have default movesets as well? its not like the game didnt make default movesets for each mii already, the 1111 is their default set that is told to us by the game.

using the 1111 sets, i really dont think that the mii`s are that bad, a lot of them have perfectly fine special moves, swordsman has a projectile, good up special, a counter, and a side special that helps his recovery, gunner has a samus charge shot and a reflector as well as other zoning tools with his side b and regular moveset. If these special moves were on other characters i doubt people would complain about them nearly as much. and brawler is supposed to be the best one out of all of them, so i dont see anything wrong with his 1111 set either.

Mii`s are not banned from tournaments, they are allowed for everyone to use just without adjustments, this makes creating them faster and makes a standard that others can train for and against. Character select screen is the same for every player, if people think the mii`s are too garbage, than simply pick one of the other 50 characters.

 

[DanGR]

the 1111 is their default set that is told to us by the game.

Have you ever made a Mii before? There is very clearly no default set. 1111 is totally arbitrary.

 

[T0MMY]

I'm sorry but I won't argue semantics with you. 99% of the time you understand very well what the wording means, and english is not my native language so I'm at a disadvantage. Thank you for not taking me for a scrub though.


1) I do not know what to answer to that point since you seem to agree with me. Maybe I misunderstood you though (but if I did, I think the other points will cover everything you said).

Actually, no, my point was to the contrary. Allow me to clarify for you:
The TO is not expected to provide extra hardware to the player, it is the players' responsibility. This should not be interpreted that the hardware is banned or cannot be used.
Pro controllers, Wii remotes, memory cards, headphones, eye-strain reducing glasses, or any other equipment have never been banned as far as I can tell. I've used a Wii remote via bluetooth to upload information to the game as far back as Brawl - it was the same process uploading with Brawl as uploading a Mii in SSB4 (I even had my Mii stored on my Wii remote!).

There has never been an issue with extra hardware before that I am aware of with which we could set a precedence; it does not appear to violate competitive principles, so you would need to demonstrate why the point is valid.

Having a single 3DS is theoretically enough for any number of Miis and setups, yes. However in reality, while it can work at a local, good luck in the middle of an EVO-like tournament. If you have to run back and forth everywhere for 15 minutes because you cannot physically find the one console, or if you find it but multiple people are waiting for it before you, then yes quantity is an issue.

Having just one 3DS is not just theoretically enough, it is in fact a reality that is demonstrable in real world practice.
I'll take this opportunity to stress:
Rulesets are not built off what-if scenarios, they are built on solutions.

Scare scenarios, fearmongering, and problem-reaction paradigms are not solutions. We can analyze a system properly and prepare for any foreseen issues (e.g. what-if a power outage happens), but dreaming up a fantasy where someone is running back and forth in the venue for 15 minutes does not have credible real-world applications. In the real world I simply just at down and uploaded my Mii and played my match, which took about 2 minutes. The Mii resided on the setup for the duration of the tournament - I found it on the same Wii U at another tournament about a year later, talk about practical!

First, the fact that a 3DS is allowed to be used as a controller is irrelevant. If a player wants to use a 3DS instead of another controller then it is his choice and his responsibility to make, and he is not put at an advantage or disadvantage by doing so.

I disagree, because the controller is at the core of the discussion; if a 3DS is not allowed then no Mii transfer could be performed. It almost seems completely contradictory to say this is irrelevant. So, I'll continue.

Second, the only thing a player is required to provide in a tournament is a controller. Any cost outside of that cannot be estimated or required. A family or a roommate can split the fee in multiple parts ; a player is not even required to have a Wii U if he plays only at a friend's house. So adding 100€ on top of that IS consequent.

I don't even think they need to provide a controller. In fact, as a TO, I have brought extra controllers (one of each type) just to make sure a new player has a controller to use when they didn't realize they had to bring one (this has helped out on a number of occasions).
We cannot have double-standards here. If the family/roommate pays for Wii U and the game then one cannot rationally just cherry pick - this is ALSO applied to the 3DS as well!
In fact I have brought my 3DS to tournaments in case anyone needed an upload for their Mii (this has never been employed, because there were never any Mii players who were not responsible in bringing what they needed).

But, the main issue is that it's unfair to Mii players. Playing any other character can be achieved with just the minimum hardware, but playing a Mii optimally in tournaments requires to buy a 3DS.

By this logic it is "unfair" to use a DLC character because they cost money.
Also, a 3DS can be provided (see above).
And, again, the precedent is that a player is required to provide their own additional hardware - this is not unlike any other sport with equipment. You wanna play using specific equipment, then get it.
And, finally, the "optimal" part of the argument is subjective. It may be the case that a Guest Mii is the optimal Mii for one of the three Mii characters.
All-in-all this does not seem to have any grounding for me to agree with.

Someone should not be required to put extra money to get the best of something already available in-game

Why? Do you think we should all be socialist?
As a TO, I am not going to shell out money and go through the process of buying everyone's DLC and equipment they want.

Political jokes aside, the stronger solution is to say "you want it, you buy it", don't expect the TO to buy everything you want including all the rare Amiibos you are missing in your collection.
If an attendee of mine thinks it's not fair then I'll tell them they need to move to a socialist country and enjoy all those high taxes and government dictators. Just an imo, but I am fairly certain most TOs will be more inclined to agree seeing as nobody is doing this.

Now, looking at this in a competitive sense, the option to use a 3DS is there for EVERYONE, which is definitive of fair.
Just because someone went out and got a job and bought a 3DS and another person did not does not have a reasonable argument in a ruleset.

Even between Mii players, someone who can have a 3DS is at an advantage compared to someone who can't. It is clearly a pay-to-win situation.

Yeah, and my opponent has a nice, new controller whereas I only have my old, worn-out controller. NOT FAIR! TO, buy me a new controller or ban new controllers! Pay-to-win situation!

Worse, it's a pay-to-win situation artificially created by the tournament own rules, since the Mii Maker is by default present on every Wii U and could be used (but forbidden). I do not think this situation is desirable, at all.

Your opinion is as valuable as anyone else. Feel free to not think it's desirable, but I think I'll point out that solutions create a better world whereas complaining about an opinion doesn't really go very far.
However, the tournament rules did not create the ability to use a 3DS to make a Mii. The reality is that the software allows for this by the game's own rules. Placing out-of-game rules saying "you can't!" is artificial, by removing the artificial "you can't" we simply allow the game to be utilized to its fullest potential, which is the competitive creed. I think you might have got it backwards.

Additionally, I'd like to add two small, but I think relevant points :
- If I remember correctly from the EVO sets discussions, the sliders for height and weight do not work the same way between the Mii Maker on Wii U and the one on 3DS. If memory serves, the number of "ticks" on the sliders are different.
So even if 3DS upload is allowed by whatever means, a player can still get his character wrong (and thus be at a disadvantage), just because he didn't know an obscure feature of something completely unrelated to Smash.

Assuming this is an actual issue, the argument is not valid: Getting things "wrong" means you need to "git gud". But more importantly, the risks are the players' choice. One of my favorite sayings if someone cries over a poor decision is "you knew the risks".

Training. It is maybe the most subjective argument I'll use in this discussion, but in my opinion we cannot expect EVERY player to know EVERY combos possibilities and specificities of EVERY height/weight combination for ALL THREE Miis including their moves variations, let alone training against them.

It's not the TO's job to make sure the players are good at the game. When they stop being scrubs about it they'll find that the Mii variation is actually minsucule compared to what theorycrafters may make it out to be. Nearly every Mii fighter is going to be running with the optimal set, so on the off-chance you come across a Mii fighter there's the ~99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance you practiced that matchup.

All in all, I think it is both fairer and simpler to go with guests Miis only for tournament use. But in all honesty, I would have expected the first complaint over my previous reasoning to be against the one-moveset-per-set limitation, and not 3DS upload.

I disagree.
It is more fair to allow people to use their 3DS instead of artificially banning them without sound reasoning before we even allow it in tournament to see any real issues that may arise in some kind of kneejerk ban reaction that has already plagued the community.

"Innocent until proven broken."

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Character select screen is the same for every player, if people think the mii`s are too garbage, than simply pick one of the other 50 characters.

Because finding the one character that makes you happiest, then being told "No, go pick something else" makes the other 50 characters a very poor consolation prize to that player. Esp. when we have proof they're not a problem character, they don't hurt anything.

 

[T0MMY]

I didn't read your entire post because you started talking about logic. You won't be able to convince people who are anti-Mii to agree with you by using logic because logic means nothing to people who are already illogical.

I also found this to be the case.
But I also found that people who are already illogical are such because they have already made up their mind and won't listen to any one who disagrees with them. This is why I go by speaking to those who listen. When all is said and done those who refused to be reasonable will have to face the consequences of their actions and the stronger argument will remain to be reflected on to those who will listen in the future.
This is what is called "fighting the good fight". You may not get immediate results, but you get to enjoy the proverbial fruits of your labor.

I think the only real issue is you have to make all the miis for event and you have to do it for every single console in the place.

No, you don't.
You really don't.

We already have a rule that since there would be way too many variables if you could make a mii of any size you wanted, you have to use a DEFAULT size mii

What rule is this? Where do you find it?
And who is this "we" you speak of?
You are posting in a message board that is utilized internationally, "we" can be a fairly big word.

 

[vegeta18]

Have you ever made a Mii before? There is very clearly no default set. 1111 is totally arbitrary.

thats not true, if you make a mii, and leave it unchanged(the default) they will %100 always have a 1111 moveset. That is the default moveset for these characters, and it is based off how the game designed it. That doesn`t seem arbitrary to me.

Because finding the one character that makes you happiest, then being told "No, go pick something else" makes the other 50 characters a very poor consolation prize to that player. Esp. when we have proof they're not a problem character, they don't hurt anything.

Heres the thing, they are not banned though, that is something players are putting into their heads. Samus is also a pretty bad character in this game, is he banned as well? You are allowed to use mii`s in most tournaments you just have to make sure they are default size so that they dont have random special moves, weights, movement, and other things.

 

[T0MMY]

thats not true, if you make a mii, and leave it unchanged(the default) they will %100 always have a 1111 moveset. That is the default moveset for these characters, and it is based off how the game designed it. That doesn`t seem arbitrary to me.

It may be "default" subject to your opinion, but the game itself does not have a "default" Mii to be used in tournament play. The game itself will proceed to a character choice screen where the player is then allowed to choose between options, none of which are a "default" option declared by the game; therefore any declarations of "default" is subject to opinion and is speculation at best.

By actual game standards the default is to create an original fighter the way you see fit, that is how the designers intended the game to be played at an actual default, so such a deviation would require a reason to place a restriction on the character.
This necessary reason is the main subject of discussion at hand.

So, what is the sound reasoning behind imposing the 1111 restriction? Argument of "default"?
"Argument of Default" appears to be an attempt to derive a logical conclusion from the Competitive Principle of Software Authority. That we should play the game at its "default". However, the software itself allows for a choice in Mii fighters, which, by competitive creed would be exploited to its fullest (no restriction) and does not support this Argument of Default.
Software authority can be overridden if there is warrant for a change (requires sound reasoning).

Once you give sound reasoning for the declared restriction then it may warrant a change in rules.

Heres the thing, they are not banned though, that is something players are putting into their heads. Samus is also a pretty bad character in this game, is he banned as well? You are allowed to use mii`s in most tournaments you just have to make sure they are default size so that they dont have random special moves, weights, movement, and other things.

You are right about Samus, he is not banned. Only his gender is banned.
Samus being a bad character (or male) is completely beside the point. Rules are not made based on how bad characters are; justifying a ban on Mii fighters because 'being a bad character is ok' is not reasonable.
Again, deriving a logical consequence from Competitive Principles should be all that is needed.
Good luck.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

thats not true, if you make a mii, and leave it unchanged(the default) they will %100 always have a 1111 moveset. That is the default moveset for these characters, and it is based off how the game designed it. That doesn`t seem arbitrary to me.

If you order a meal at a diner and go with the first option in each category, that is your default meal.

If this sounds ridiculous to you, it should. Miis are 'build a character', you construct them from a series of choices. If you change nothing from the default, interestingly enough you wind up with the following:

A> The resulting Mii Fighter looks nothing like the 'official design' of them, as shown in the Amiibo figures of the Miis.

B> It looks nothing like Reggie Fils-Aime or Satoru Iwata (rest in peace), which is interesting since the debut trailer for the Miis featured a Fils-Aime and a Iwata Mii fighting it out. Clearly the very design intent is to make them look different than the very base slate you're given if you just go with defaults.

C> It has few of the moves shown off in the trailer. Some of them, yes, but not many. Why would we be shown these things if we weren't meant to play with them?

I will remind you that Customs Off ignores your idea of what should be how Miis work. This argument has been brought out numerous times, so I will not go into any further detail on it.

Heres the thing, they are not banned though, that is something players are putting into their heads.

They're 'allowed' without their primary trait. Ask Rosalina players if they'd like to play their character without Luma. I'm pretty sure they'll introduce you to every single profanity they know, followed by the word 'you', to express their contempt for this idea. Taking away move selection from the Build-Your-Own-Characters is basically taking away the one thing they have going for them.

Samus is also a pretty bad character in this game, is he banned as well?

Yes. Samus is banned. Adam Malkovich recently stated: "Samus, you are not authorized to be in this video game" and got her deleted from the game data.

 

[smashbro29]

No, you don't.
You really don't.

1.Make Miis on 3DS.
2. Go over to every single WiiU you need to use and transfer those Mii fighters.

So I guess if you find a team of people willing to run around with 3DS systems in advance good on you but I sure don't wanna be that person.

 

[FSLink]

1.Make Miis on 3DS.
2. Go over to every single WiiU you need to use and transfer those Mii fighters.

So I guess if you find a team of people willing to run around with 3DS systems in advance good on you but I sure don't wanna be that person.

We've done it with customs for the whole cast, at EVO even. It can be done. You don't even have the issue of having to unlock them with Miis.

 

[smashbro29]

We've done it with customs for the whole cast, at EVO even. It can be done. You don't even have the issue of having to unlock them with Miis.

If you can find a guy to do it then great, no reason not to have miis at your tournaments.

The only thing is with only 10 spots which options do you enable?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

If you can find a guy to do it then great, no reason not to have miis at your tournaments.

The only thing is with only 10 spots which options do you enable?

If by 10 spots you're referring to the custom move set limit normal characters have, Mii's don't exactly have that limitation. IIRC, you ca have up to 100 Mii Fighters stored on a Smash save file, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

 

[FSLink]

If by 10 spots you're referring to the custom move set limit normal characters have, Mii's don't exactly have that limitation. IIRC, you ca have up to 100 Mii Fighters stored on a Smash save file, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

It's 99.

Have the common sets be imported ahead of time, then allow player importation depending on the size and scale of a tournament.

 

[smashbro29]

If by 10 spots you're referring to the custom move set limit normal characters have, Mii's don't exactly have that limitation. IIRC, you ca have up to 100 Mii Fighters stored on a Smash save file, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

I mean personally. I hate the miis from a thematic point of view so I made them for the challenges that required them and deleted them afterwards. So I don't know the limitations but I know it's a pain to transfer things.

It's 99.

Have the common sets be imported ahead of time, then allow player importation depending on the size and scale of a tournament.

Gotta disagree, there has to be a standard for every event regardless of size.

 

[T0MMY]

1.Make Miis on 3DS.
2. Go over to every single WiiU you need to use and transfer those Mii fighters.

Is this necessary? No.
But what if the TO wants to be gracious enough to help set up Mii fighters for the players? Two or three Mii fighters uploaded to a couple dedicated setups - no not every setup needs one, and: no, not every single combination of Mii needs to be uploaded, just the one the player will use.

In effect it would be like this:
The Mii players can have an upload to the main-stage setup and then one or two more dedicated for their matches to be called on.

That is... if there are any Mii fighter players in the tournament. Chances are there won't be. Estimated time: 0 min.

So I guess if you find a team of people willing to run around with 3DS systems in advance good on you but I sure don't wanna be that person.

By "team" you mean the player who is using a Mii fighter and only that one person who uploads their build to a minimum of one setup which takes 2 minutes. This "team" may not even exist given the lackluster viability of nearly every build of a Mii save for Brawler.

If you can find a guy to do it then great, no reason not to have miis at your tournaments.

Awesome, solution found.

Gotta disagree, there has to be a standard for every event regardless of size.

Why must there be a standard? What is the reasoning behind this claim?

 

[smashbro29]

Why must there be a standard? What is the reasoning behind this claim?

If big tournaments have a standard, small ones should too to keep everything even regardless of event size.

 

[Ajimi]

I think you're going nowhere like that T0MMY. At your own locals you can do whatever you want, but in the grand scheme of things a compromise WILL have to be made. And the bare minimum for said compromise will be to limit to guests Miis only. "Competitive theory" is nice and all, but one day or another it has to face both real world (including really large tournaments potentials problems) and players opinions at large. Telling people to "go out and get a job" so they can buy extra hardware for only one character is at best extremely borderline to competitive theory, at worst completely ridiculous.

I think as of right now, you've convinced nobody expect those who already agreed with you in the first place. You don't want a compromise, you want people to copy-paste your opinion, and that is a problem.

 

[teluoborg]

Why do Mii Brawler mains always have to make wall of texts that only repeat the same arguments that have been around for 6 months ?

The status quo still hasn't changed, repeating "nothing's wrong with the character" and punctuating every argument with "it's logical" won't make your 5 pages essay become true or suddenly convince the people that didn't get convinced by EVO.

I mean heck, I don't have anything against 2122 Guest Mii Brawler (though I don't understand why anyone would want to play a watered down version of ZSS) but if you can't come up with any new arguments or backup data in 6 months then you deserve your goddamn 1111.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Why do Mii Brawler mains always have to make wall of texts that only repeat the same arguments that have been around for 6 months ?

Because being 'quick and punchy' didn't work. Because a significant majority appears to agree with us if polls are any indication. Because a minority of influential players are pitching fits to keep us from being able to play the character we enjoy.

So we've tried to use reasoning and data. Turns out the influential minority doesn't care about that either. I must say they're acting in extremely bad faith.

 

[teluoborg]

Well if the polls results can be trusted then what is the point of making a public statement on a forum (where there already is a thread about Mii legality and where the majority agrees with it) instead of directly contacting the concerned people (here : the Genesis TOs) ?

Speaking of which, and it has been said above, the rules for Genesis 3 still haven't been announced so isn't a thread about something that hasn't happened yet even more useless ?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Why do Mii Brawler mains always have to make wall of texts that only repeat the same arguments that have been around for 6 months ?

The status quo still hasn't changed, repeating "nothing's wrong with the character" and punctuating every argument with "it's logical" won't make your 5 pages essay become true or suddenly convince the people that didn't get convinced by EVO.

I mean heck, I don't have anything against 2122 Guest Mii Brawler (though I don't understand why anyone would want to play a watered down version of ZSS) but if you can't come up with any new arguments or backup data in 6 months then you deserve your goddamn 1111.

The problem is that the people who are explicitly against mii legality (or only want 1111 sets) haven't really addressed the arguments in any meaningful way.

Saying, "well the people who don't want them have already decided they don't care for your arguments and they will continue to be banned" is really terrible. It's the sort of community group-think that kept Meta Knight legal despite the problems he was causing Brawl. Now I'm not saying this is on the same level as that (Smash 4 will be a healthy game with or without mii fighters) but it's poor form and something we shouldn't be taking seriously but are simply because it's the (apparent) majority.

And saying that they deserve to have something worse because they continue to fight for something they want is just really exclusionary, and is part of the reason the FGC (and Smash in particular) carries the stigma it does.

Me as a player would not be affected by Miis being legal or not, but it makes the most sense to me to allow them. But even if we did decide to ban them, it should always be after a proper, community-wide discussion, not just because we just decided they were banned for whatever reason.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

We've tried contacting the TOs and we're usually met with silence, mockery, or if a TO looks like they're going to work with us... then so-called top players throw a hissy-fit over it and threaten to not show up.

We didn't just decide to keep trying the same damn thing over and over. We've tried a variety of tactics, and we're always held back by the same small group of people. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Someone answer me this: literally every character in the roster is using the 1111 set. Why should Miis be treated differently?

 

[paperchao]

Someone answer me this: literally every character in the roster is using the 1111 set. Why should Miis be treated differently?

They can change their movesets while customs are set to off.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Someone answer me this: literally every character in the roster is using the 1111 set. Why should Miis be treated differently?

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people get pissed when we 'trot out the same arguments' and say this is why we 'deserve' to be mistreated.

but they won't take the time to read the answers we've given to 'the same questions' posed over and over.

Insert wall of text here about how modifiable move-sets are the Miis' special design feature, even Customs Off allows them to do this. It's like how Rosalina has a Puppet as her special feature, Mac has armored smashes as his special feature, etc. etc. This is what the Miis are supposed to do. Their very purpose is a character the user can make modest tweaks to in order to suit their exact preferences! Taking that away is taking away the very point of the Miis, just as forcing someone to jettison Luma would be gutting the point of Rosalina!

Now you know.