What is the downsides of Camping?

[rageagainst]

K I don't understand the basics of melee. In smash 64, and casual games of melee, camping is less of a factor b/c you're mostly strategically guessing what your opponent is going to do next and move accordingly.

In melee, you have such precise control of your character, I'm wondering what's the point of making a move at all, nearly everything is avoidable, it seems whoever attacks first loses. And one thing that frustrates me to no end in melee is shield stun, I have no idea how it works, against some moves I can't act immediately out of shield, and against others, its like half a second before I can move.

So is it something like, you camp in such a way to limit the options your opponents has and guess which one he is going to do correctly. So when someone is shielding, you can hit their shield to shield stun them, which allows you to get yourself into better position, and guess what they are going to do after that (they could dodge, roll or jump/attack out of shield).

 

[Dan Salvato]

Good question. If you're the one approaching, you can mix up your game and the camping player is in danger of making the wrong move. As the camper, you're forced to try to read and predict your opponent in every situation, and so the opponent can take advantage of that and control you. As a simple example, a Falco can approach you with lasers. You have limited options. You can jump, block, maybe spot dodge, etc. The approaching Falco is forcing you to make a reaction move and is ready to read it (grab if you block, aerial if you jump or whatever). The approaching character generally has more options than the camper.

You're right in saying that camping is good. But, what's more important is learning to read your opponent and determine your options in every situation. At some point you'll likely play against an aggressive player who beats the crap out of you.

 

[Varist]

Good question. If you're the one approaching, you can mix up your game and the camping player is in danger of making the wrong move. As the camper, you're forced to try to read and predict your opponent in every situation, and so the opponent can take advantage of that and control you. As a simple example, a Falco can approach you with lasers. You have limited options. You can jump, block, maybe spot dodge, etc. The approaching Falco is forcing you to make a reaction move and is ready to read it (grab if you block, aerial if you jump or whatever). The approaching character generally has more options than the camper.

You're right in saying that camping is good. But, what's more important is learning to read your opponent and determine your options in every situation. At some point you'll likely play against an aggressive player who beats the crap out of you.

You picked the only example you possibly could have picked that would make you completely wrong. Falco is the one character in the cast who can approach this way. With any other character, they're forced to make just as many predictions as the camping player. But now, the camping player has frame advantage.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Stage control.

 

[Dr Peepee]

downisdes of camping.....

-you give up stage control.

This is a big deal because without stage control you cannot pull the opponent into you with a bait very well to punish. You are left with pushing (unless your opponent approaches badly), and this situation is difficult to get around. Think about it, if you are backed up against a cliff, then you'll want to push away from it so you can regain stability and footing, right?

-you don't really ride momentum.

When an aggressive player gets a hit, he sees the momentum swing in his favor and knows his followups and combos and pressure strings he can execute confidently and keep it going. For a campy player, a hit only serves to frustrate the opponent into approaching in a worse fashion so that a gimp or easier kill may be obtained. Also, without practice in riding momentum a campy player may be less comfortable with hit confirms and followups if they score an opening in general because they aren't used to trying to combo a lot off of their reads.

-you make yourself predictable.

By boxing yourself into a smaller area and playing very simply, it only makes sense that you will be easier to read. Throwing out projectiles or DD/platform camping in a smaller area doesn't allow for the full effectiveness of these tactics(that is, to pull your opponent into you) that utilizing them with more stage could grant you. If I'm laser camping with Fox in the middle of the stage, then doesn't the threat of me being able to DD backwards seem much more threatening than if I am doing so by the edge, where I will have much greater difficulty escaping the approach?




3 things, anyway lol.

 

[finalcloud13]

If by theory you create an unbeatable strategy, by all means go for it. I'd love to see it actually happen.

 

[Archangel]

Everything said Plus the fact that everyone in the community looks at you as an *******.

 

[Sinji]

The player can figure out your pattern then punish.

Their was a video I had and my friend was using falco and he was camping lasers to 20%. then I found out his pattern quickly and just shine spiked him off the stage and easily. Wish I had the video to show but. It got corrupted.

 

[rageagainst]

The player can figure out your pattern then punish.

Their was a video I had and my friend was using falco and he was camping lasers to 20%. then I found out his pattern quickly and just shine spiked him off the stage and easily. Wish I had the video to show but. It got corrupted.

If your friend was a decent player and didn't fall into patterns, then he could dominate you since he had better options than you most of the match.

 

[Kal]

It's important to note the upsides and downsides on a case-by-case basis. It's not universally better to camp, nor is it universally better to approach. Sometimes camping is the optimal strategy (particularly when it forces your slow opponent to try and approach, e.g. Fox vs. Y. Link, Fox vs. Bowser), while other times it's better to be aggressive (most characters have to play aggressively against Falco, for example).

There have been a number of spin-off topics from Hax's "pro-camp" topic. It's kind of strange.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Read PeePee's post here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13523773&postcount=136

He breaks down the proposed advantages of defensive play and argues that it's situational like every other strategy.

 

[Deleted member]

K I don't understand the basics of melee.

You want to not get hit and then hit them a lot. You can attack them or run away a lot but then you're bad at one of the two. instead, you make them attack you, avoid the hit, and then hit them back a lot, and then you can do both well. it's like cheating.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You want to not get hit and then hit them a lot. You can attack them or run away a lot but then you're bad at one of the two. instead, you make them attack you, avoid the hit, and then hit them back a lot, and then you can do both well. it's like cheating.

Oh wow this post is amazing on so many levels.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Oh wow this post is amazing on so many levels.

Sarcasm aside, as a mid-level player, constantly reminding myself "Don't get hit" helps my game a lot.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Low risk, low reward.

 

[Sinji]

If your friend was a decent player and didn't fall into patterns, then he could dominate you since he had better options than you most of the match.

You misinterpreted my post.

 

[rageagainst]

You want to not get hit and then hit them a lot. You can attack them or run away a lot but then you're bad at one of the two. instead, you make them attack you, avoid the hit, and then hit them back a lot, and then you can do both well. it's like cheating.

yeh that's what I'm figuring out, there's no real safe approaches, its more about out camping your opponents through a game of chicken.

 

[Dan Salvato]

yeh that's what I'm figuring out, there's no real safe approaches, its more about out camping your opponents through a game of chicken.

That's just wrong. Simply watching a handful of videos on YouTube would prove it.
edit: In case you don't feel like finding one, refer to the first 60 seconds of this video: http://youtu.be/vJEbaZzLiwg
M2K approaches well and takes control of the entire stage like a boss, effectively pushing Armada to his death.

And like I said, read this post. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13523773&postcount=136

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find that when you take a more passive role, you also forfeit a lot of say in the positioning games that are going to occur because, well, you've severely cut down the "forward" direction as a legitimate option. I suppose this sort of ties into what Dr. Peepee was getting at at being predictable, but I feel confining your options and focusing only on a specific set of options (defensive ones) has a nasty consequence of removing your awareness or responsiveness to offensive openings (because a defending player wants to be safe!). This is troublesome because it then gives the offensive player a bit more leeway in how they can attack you because they can set up a better position to cover multiple options with their attack, or troll you with nonsense (anyone else remember how Mango's Puff would jump around people when they're blocking?).

To some degree this is a human limitation and could probably be worked out with proper self-training and conditioning, but currently it seems like one of the biggest plus sides of offensive play.

I also kind of like how Cactuar views the upsides of playing aggressor over defender.

 

[Cactuar]

Lawl. Man, I really nerd out sometimes.

 

[rageagainst]

.

To some degree this is a human limitation and could probably be worked out with proper self-training and conditioning, but currently it seems like one of the biggest plus sides of offensive play.

I also kind of like how Cactuar views the upsides of playing aggressor over defender.

This is exactly what I'm saying, whenever I see an offensive play work for a non fox/falco character, its usually due to human error.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Exploiting human limitations is a pretty good strat even into tippy top level, y'know.



.

 

[crush]

Exactly what dave said.

 

[Hax]

This is exactly what I'm saying, whenever I see an offensive play work for a non fox/falco character, its usually due to human error.

you are 100% correct

you forgot peach, though.

read my thread if you haven't already. it's the embodiment of exactly what you're thinking

 

[Sinji]

I miss Kens Marth. So offensive