What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[GeneralLedge]

Handy reminder that just because customs are on, doesn't mean you have to run Super Speed and Light Weight on Palutena. You could run Angelic Missile and Celestial Firework instead. Are these two moves more or less in favor of her "core" character? Celestial Firework strikes me as a more defensive move, at least. But I don't know what it's utility is when everyone and their mother runs Superspeed and Light Weight, and then 180s and says these moves are damaging to the character.

What if, we deliberately set every character up with their absolute "worst" custom moves, and make a competition out of that?

Can anyone confidently say, without a doubt, what every character's worst custom moves are and why? If we know how overpowered and "damaging-to-the-meta" the best moves are, do we know the effects and application of the absolute worst moves in the game?

I'd personally be fascinated by the player who can make the worst Sheik moveset in the game work. What do you even DO with her bouncing fish variants? Can ANYONE tell me? Why not?

 

[epicnights]

I'd personally be fascinated by the player who can make the worst Sheik moveset in the game work. What do you even DO with her bouncing fish variants? Can ANYONE tell me? Why not?

Even her bouncing fish variants are good. Jellyfish gives a free 18% out of two hits that connect reliably, while also giving sheik a high recovery mixup to the ledge. Pisces works similarly to Iai counter as a disadvantage/edgeguard reversal when offstage or near the ledge, sending the opponent behind Sheik. Chudat showed some strong proficiency in usage of Pisces when Xanadu ran customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

Even her bouncing fish variants are good. Jellyfish gives a free 18% out of two hits that connect reliably, while also giving sheik a high recovery mixup to the ledge. Pisces works similarly to Iai counter as a disadvantage/edgeguard reversal when offstage or near the ledge, sending the opponent behind Sheik. Chudat showed some strong proficiency in usage of Pisces when Xanadu ran customs.

They're okay...

Jellyfish is only good vs floaties, and pisces is ass now. Chu liked it cause because it let him 50/50 the ledge with ledge trump > bair or punish the roll with pisces. But since they nerfed both bair and ledge trumping he went back to default the short while they were legal since he then had no set-ups for it at all.

 

[wpwood]

So I saw Miis at Xandau now have a single set besides 1111, and I also saw that people don't really want to deal with custom Palutena because her turtle play style will change and it will go against her design, but as Dinoman96 said her design was around customs. If we allowed Palutena to use her customs she will become a rush down character in a way. The way I play Palutena now, I hardly use her B moves in neutral aside from maybe warp in rare situations. So a custom Palutena can still play the defensive roll that she has been limited to. A master Palultena player will be able to use both of those play styles to their fullest. It is undeniable that she will be a better character, but she will not be broken. Down throw > nair > uair works in about a 15% range, accounted for rage, and you can smash di behind Palutena in nair so the uair doesn't connect. That combo also only works in lightweight which causes her to take more damage and move at half speed after only 12 seconds.

I mentioned the Miis have a single custom set because I think it would be fair to do the same for Palutena. It allows her to be closer to her design, makes the character better but not broken, and all her moves are unlocked already. My input would be (I don't have access to the numbers right now) Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Lightweight, and either Jump Glide or Warp. I believe that it is 2322 for Jump Glide and 2321 for Warp. I am indifferent on Warp and Jump Glide. Jump Glide is the better offensive move I think, but by keeping Warp Palutena players will still have to remember their defensive play. I think this argument is only valid for Palutena because she 1) has all her moves already unlocked and 2) was designed around customs but she can't use them in the current meta and this is the closest I can think of getting to that while not giving her full access to customs (for those of you that don't like 1 character with full customs while another others do not).

 

[DunnoBro]

Let them get used to Miis first.

Personally I'm starting to feel DHD was also designed around customs as all his defaults but sideb are more defensive and counterplay-based (like palutena) whereas zigzag, mega/quick gunmen, and snag enable aggressive play. In general he just feels like a real character with those moves.

 

[Mo433]

Personally I'm all for customs. I think they really make a difference on some character's viability.

If you ask me, customs didn't get nearly enough time to get fleshed out and grow. I know some of the top players don't like them for whatever reason, but at this point they need to adapt to them.

 

[wpwood]

Except DH's customs are just modified versions of his default moves, while Palutena's moves are 100% different from each other in nearly all aspects. Miis and Palutena are the only characters truly designed around customs.

 

[Dinoman96]

Let them get used to Miis first.

Personally I'm starting feel DHD was also designed around customs as all his defaults but sideb are more defensive and counterplay-based (like palutena) whereas zigzag, mega/quick gunmen, and snag enable aggressive play. In general he just feels like a real character with those moves.

I think that's kinda doubtful. Duck Hunt's customs aren't mentioned in the in-game fighter tips, they're not available from the start and his (their?) trophy doesn't mention anything about customization. That's the distinction between Palutena and the Mii Fighters compared to the rest of the cast.

It just so happens that DH happens to have customs that help him out, similarly to other characters like Ganondorf or Kirby, but I don't think they were overall designed with them in mind.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think that's kinda doubtful. Duck Hunt's customs aren't mentioned in the in-game fighter tips, they're not available from the start and his (their?) trophy doesn't mention anything about customization. That's the distinction between Palutena and the Mii Fighters compared to the rest of the cast.

It just so happens that DH happens to have customs that help him out, similarly to other characters like Ganondorf or Kirby, but I don't think they were overall designed with them in mind.

I just said I feel that way. He just feels actually complete with those customs. He has legit 50/50s and similar kill set-up to the top tiers.

He also actually did have his customs shown in his reveal trailer, only him and palutena have that.

Obviously not to the degree palutena or miis are designed and I certainly wouldn't compare him to them when discussing legality, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the more "customs concerned" characters in regards to balance in the design phase.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

He also actually did have his customs shown in his reveal trailer, only him and palutena have that.

WHERE? How did I miss that?

 

[DunnoBro]

WHERE? How did I miss that?

It was just the mega gunmen. You might've thought it was a regular one cause it was the shortest mega that came out.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

It was just the mega gunmen. You might've thought it was a regular one cause it was the shortest mega that came out.

ooh okay, just rewatched the trailer and saw that. It was a small moment though, probably done to show off the art for the gunman. Notice that when it comes time to show off the gunman's gameplay they switch to the default

 

[GeneralLedge]

Except DH's customs are just modified versions of his default moves, while Palutena's moves are 100% different from each other in nearly all aspects. Miis and Palutena are the only characters truly designed around customs.

I'd argue kinda-sorta Megaman, if only because his feel the most... Like side-grades from one another, as opposed to a clear-cut "these are better".

Regardless, arguing what privileges are deserved based on what the game itself offers is frivolous, and easily argued in opposition.

ie. "They are called 'customs' by the game, you need to 'turn them on' to use them, and Mii Fighters are also created under the 'customs' menu. Clearly these things are like items, in that they will ruin the game."

Either argument has an inherent flaw: We should judge by engagement, not by rumor. Customs have not posed problems outside of cocky players ignoring their utility and getting burned because of it, by much smarter players than them that latched to the 'problem customs' and won explicitly because the cocky players never bothered to learn how to counter them. Similarly, nobody wants to spend the time entertaining the "weak" custom moves, because much like Zelda or Samus, it requires a lot of effort and practice in learning how to utilize these moves than the reward provided. "Kong Cyclone" and "Extreme Balloon Trip" are the Marios of custom moves. They are easy.

As I said the other day, "Customs mean free wins". This is the perception they entertain, because a majority of the game's players are narrow learners. They want to learn and master the singular character on their own, and optional decisions such as custom moves offer too many combinations for them to know where to start, what to learn, or what to do. If custom moves fail, it will NOT be because of the moves themselves. It will be because nobody is smart enough to learn them.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm content with baby steps, if even those. Let people get used to miis, then introduce palutena and see where it goes from there.

 

[LancerStaff]

What is wrong with a Custom being "strictly superior" to the Default counterpart?
If both Customs are bad, isn't the default "strictly superior" as well, and the only viable option (see: Meta Knight)?
:196;

The whole point of customs is to have choice, correct? You're pretty much undermining you're whole justification to have them in the first place...

 

[DunnoBro]

The whole point of customs is to have choice, correct? You're pretty much undermining you're whole justification to have them in the first place...

The choice to do whatever we want with them. This is all we want to do, apparently.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The "better moves" isn't so much an exclusive customs problem, but a "we can only use 10 sets" problem.

Spaghetti logic is to put the "best" ones forward. Or, rather, what we currently assume is "best".

It's kind of flawed from the get-go. It would be a thousand times better for players themselves to decide their customs. But nobody knows how much setup time that will require, and supposedly there is no "pre-tournament," tournaments just exist and then cease to exist in a moment's notice

 

[ぱみゅ]

You can CHOOSE to have the inferior Custom, at your own risk. It's just that for some reason it is a bad thing when a Custom is superior but not when the Default is.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can CHOOSE to have the inferior Custom, at your own risk. It's just that for some reason it is a bad thing when a Custom is superior but not when the Default is.

With ten sets? There's no space for creativity.

It's just that we have supposedly adaptable characters and yet we end up with things like Palutena not having RB in her EVO (?) sets. If any move is that much better then the rest then it removes any reason to be creative with a set, and without this creativity why are we playing customs outside of specific character viability? Having a default be the best is similarly bad, moreso because it means your character is comparatively weaker in that area. Overall people don't mind so much because it means it's one less overtuned move to deal with.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

With ten sets? There's no space for creativity.

It's just that we have supposedly adaptable characters and yet we end up with things like Palutena not having RB in her EVO (?) sets. If any move is that much better then the rest then it removes any reason to be creative with a set, and without this creativity why are we playing customs outside of specific character viability? Having a default be the best is similarly bad, moreso because it means your character is comparatively weaker in that area. Overall people don't mind so much because it means it's one less overtuned move to deal with.

Palutena has 2 sets with Reflect Barrier according to the project thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In any case, 10 sets is sub-optimal. CMP should really go back to 8 sets and 2 free spaces, they only used the 10 because MLG would not allow transfers.

 

[Raijinken]

In any case, 10 sets is sub-optimal. CMP should really go back to 8 sets and 2 free spaces, they only used the 10 because MLG would not allow transfers.

If only the project were more actively under revision.

That said, it's never been stated by anyone on the project that all ten spaces were required. Slots 9 and 10 were designed to be the outlier sets to be overridden.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Why not set up 8 sets and reserve 9 and 10 for people that can upload their personal customs preference from their 3ds if they have one that could be overridden per set.

9 for Player 1 and 10 for Player 2.

Seems simple to me. Players without the 3DS version have the default and 8 different sets to choose from while those with their personal preference can just upload their own for slots 9 and 10.

Or is that too complicated.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The ruleset we use in KSM events is pretty simple. We have sets pre-loaded onto the Wii Us; feel free to pick them. If you want a different set, either load it from your own 3ds or ask someone else to do it for you (notably, I always have my 3ds, and I field all requests sent my way). Sets 9 and 10 are designed to be overwritten and will be... though we ask people to be smart enough to pick the worse set between 9 and 10 (like don't overwrite 2131 Fox or 3211 Link that people actually pick). In practice it's no real issue; only a small handful of players ever want a set that's not pre-loaded, and when the situation does arise, it is not a problem. We actually had Mace take 2nd with 2122 Shulk at the last event which it should be noted is not currently in the project, and somehow putting 2122 on a lot of set-ups as he moved around playing in the event and working his way to 2nd place was not an issue. If a set was overwritten and you want it, request it the same way. This is also how we handle someone bringing a set-up without customs; we quickly just load up the characters we know are popular in our area during friendlies time before the bracket, and if something else is requested (which is not rare in that situation since inevitably someone's character will be forgotten), we just handle it on the spot. I've yet to see a downside, and every possible custom configuration is legal.

I think most characters have multiple relevant sets with customs legal; I don't think anyone outside of the DLC characters is actually limited to just one viable set in the sense that a character is viable at all. Like I'm trying to think through the characters with the worst sets of customs, and I still find decision points. Diddy does have a real decision between Rocketbarrel Attack and default Rocketbarrels (we have a Diddy nation locally, and they do not agree on which set is best). Jigglypuff has a real decision between default Rest and Leaping Rest. Meta Knight's High Speed Drill versus default Drill Rush is a decision of sorts. In a lot of cases a single move has a really clear best choice (like seriously why would you not use Zig-Zag Shot?), but on the same character there's always another slot where an actual decision has to be made. Individual players usually settle into a single favored set, but characters as a whole have inherent variety with customs. Likewise, customs really do increase the variety in the game just by nature of making more characters viable. People love to john about custom Villager or whatever, but I've yet to see a case of "my character was viable but is not because of custom Villager" whereas the opposite case of "my character was viable until you banned the special moves that it needed to have basic tools" comes up a lot, and when you have more viable characters, there's more variety in the first place.

I wish we already had the videos up, but I don't think we do yet. 1122 Villager vs 2122 Shulk was a really interesting match-up; it turns out that Shulk doesn't really care about the sapling too much (his sword reaches right over it anyway) while having a recovery that isn't a free gimp is pretty critical to letting Shulk actually play the game. I see situations like this all the time in this game; it just seems way, way more balanced with customs legal, and I'm continually baffled by the claims to the opposite. It just seems obvious to me that improving the average quality of options in the game will help characters who have larger flaws or fewer options in the first place, the ones who otherwise need help, moreso than the characters who already have great options. When I see the game actually played as well, I'm just more convinced. Smash 4 is just a better game with customs, and it's not better by a small amount either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wish we already had the videos up, but I don't think we do yet. 1122 Villager vs 2122 Shulk was a really interesting match-up; it turns out that Shulk doesn't really care about the sapling too much (his sword reaches right over it anyway) while having a recovery that isn't a free gimp is pretty critical to letting Shulk actually play the game. I see situations like this all the time in this game; it just seems way, way more balanced with customs legal, and I'm continually baffled by the claims to the opposite. It just seems obvious to me that improving the average quality of options in the game will help characters who have larger flaws or fewer options in the first place, the ones who otherwise need help, moreso than the characters who already have great options. When I see the game actually played as well, I'm just more convinced. Smash 4 is just a better game with customs, and it's not better by a small amount either.

I'd be interested in watching those videos when they get uploaded.

I wish my local scene was more open to customs. I've brought my Wii U to a small weekly a few times and set it up with customs on and there are always a few nibbles, but the jump from "customs-on friendlies" to "customs-on tournament" is a rather big one and I suspect I may be literally the only person in my city with all of them unlocked. (And work doesn't help, I'm currently stuck in the office until 7PM daily. #RealLifeJohns)

Once work settles down I plan to snag a GCN adapter off Amazon or something and try to become a regular fixture at those weeklies. But until then it's all just plans and hot air. Le sigh.

On that note, it occurs to me that demonstrating some of the more hype custom sets may be a good way to draw attention. Even rote practice in training mode, trying a combo or setup or something. To that end, what customs (or sets) would be good for this?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think the opposition to customs is the fact they would have to learn new matchups for every character and they don't want any character to bring any sort of unpredictability to the table. I wouldn't think acquiring them is an issue since a player can bring their own no problem. The players in opposition don't have to use them themselves.

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run. Don't want to use them fine. Don't want to conform to learning how these moves work? Well that's a personal problem. But Magius some customs are broken projectile moves. Is that a valid claim or is it inherent resistance to adapt? And why should a character like Palutena who was built around the idea of customs be effectively neutered? Do two tourney rulesets if you have to, one omitting customs and one with them. At least represent that option.

That's like going to a Pizza place and only ever getting pepperoni. No sausage, no bacon and no supreme pizza's and no salads being offered. No delivery either. You either walk in and sit for 30 minutes or get out. In this day? Inconceivable.

Or eating meat raw and never cooking it. Doesn't sound all too healthy. You want to fry or grill that slab of meat and put seasoning on it to give it flavor and that's exactly what customs does for the roster. Gives them more flavor. More options.

How are the lower tiers to ever step up to the plate if we can't optimize our skills to the best of our abilities? How can the Top tiers push their limits and truly prove they are the top dog if you want to limit their competition?

I'd rather stay interested in the game and without Customs at least for me it gets less interesting and more boring.

 

[Xeze]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Rosalina, Mario and Pikachu get amazing customs, so this is definitely not the reason.

 

[Raijinken]

Rosalina, Mario and Pikachu get amazing customs, so this is definitely not the reason.

Amazing customs is a bit different from amazing mileage out of customs. They certainly have good customs. But going from best options in the game to... still the best? Way different from going from garbage to usable.

I think the opposition to customs is the fact they would have to learn new matchups for every character and they don't want any character to bring any sort of unpredictability to the table. I wouldn't think acquiring them is an issue since a player can bring their own no problem. The players in opposition don't have to use them themselves.

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run. Don't want to use them fine. Don't want to conform to learning how these moves work? Well that's a personal problem. But Magius some customs are broken projectile moves. Is that a valid claim or is it inherent resistance to adapt? And why should a character like Palutena who was built around the idea of customs be effectively neutered? Do two tourney rulesets if you have to, one omitting customs and one with them. At least represent that option.

That's like going to a Pizza place and only ever getting pepperoni. No sausage, no bacon and no supreme pizza's and no salads being offered. No delivery either. You either walk in and sit for 30 minutes or get out. In this day? Inconceivable.

Or eating meat raw and never cooking it. Doesn't sound all too healthy. You want to fry or grill that slab of meat and put seasoning on it to give it flavor and that's exactly what customs does for the roster. Gives them more flavor. More options.

How are the lower tiers to ever step up to the plate if we can't optimize our skills to the best of our abilities? How can the Top tiers push their limits and truly prove they are the top dog if you want to limit their competition?

I'd rather stay interested in the game and without Customs at least for me it gets less interesting and more boring.

I absolutely order pepperoni every time, because that's my personal favorite. And everyone else is free to choose their personal favorite. You don't call it a pizza parlor if your only option is unflavored bread.

(I agree, by the way, just running with the metaphor)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Rosalina, Mario and Pikachu get amazing customs, so this is definitely not the reason.

Relatively, these characters get less than most low tiers. Think about it this way. Pretty much all of Mario and Pikachu's moves are already good (and all of Rosalina's non-specials are good). These characters already had a large array of good general options, and these characters lacked character ruining flaws. Adding more options can only help these characters so much. On the other hand, a lot of low tiers either have a small pool of general options or do have character ruining flaws; additional options can change the whole story for those characters. Who gains more: Rosalina with single shot projectile that does 4-5% or Ganondorf who can recover? Pikachu with a really gimmicky early kill move or Duck Hunt with a projectile that actually controls space while not being free to Pocket and Grav Pull? Mario with a little extra utility or Palutena with any utility at all? While we're at it, do we believe that with customs on any of Rosalina, Pikachu, or Mario are better characters than Sheik? If the answer is no, in what possible sense does them improving hurt the balance?

Try it as an exercise. Chart out what you think is a full list of all of the viable characters with customs on and try it again with customs off. For any character only on one list but not the other, get very specific with what particular match-ups and what particular dynamics cause the difference. Can you possibly make a list that is shorter for customs off than for customs on?

 

[Djent]

I'd argue that custom Pikachu is better than Sheik. HSB is unchanged, and although he lost the TWave infinite, said projectile benefitted immensely from the 1.1.1 shield stun changes. The disparity in the Pika:Sheik MU is mostly centered around killing, so when customs are in play...yeah. In fact, the majority of Pika's MU issues center around killing, so with customs, he was and is OP.

I also don't know enough about custom Mario, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was also better than Sheik. Not like this should really determine whether or not customs are legal. I think there are still good reasons to prefer them that don't depend on balance, but they really do overturn some characters. (And that will never get fixed so long as no one plays them. )

 

[Raijinken]

I'd argue that custom Pikachu is better than Sheik. HSB is unchanged, and although he lost the TWave infinite, said projectile benefitted immensely from the 1.1.1 shield stun changes. The disparity in the Pika:Sheik MU is mostly centered around killing, so when customs are in play...yeah. In fact, the majority of Pika's MU issues center around killing, so with customs, he was and is OP.

I also don't know enough about custom Mario, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was also better than Sheik. Not like this should really determine whether or not customs are legal. I think there are still good reasons to prefer them that don't depend on balance, but they really do overturn some characters. (And that will never get fixed so long as no one plays them. )

I'm still not convinced HSB is that obnoxious without the easy-fish setup. It's still mad punishable on shield or miss. To my knowledge (limited as I don't often play Pikachu and haven't seen any customs Pika play that wasn't fishing for the infinite), while it's absolutely an upgrade over the near-worthless default Skull Bash, it's still harder (if even possible) to set up into than most of Sheik's options.

Mario's in a similar boat, though I could see Exploding Punch being a nice finisher in situations where you manage to win the neutral. But I still see Sheik being the strongest force in neutral, and with more than enough potency in advantage and disadvantage to make skill a bigger factor than character in overcoming her.

 

[Pazx]

I'm still not convinced HSB is that obnoxious without the easy-fish setup. It's still mad punishable on shield or miss. To my knowledge (limited as I don't often play Pikachu and haven't seen any customs Pika play that wasn't fishing for the infinite), while it's absolutely an upgrade over the near-worthless default Skull Bash, it's still harder (if even possible) to set up into than most of Sheik's options.

Mario's in a similar boat, though I could see Exploding Punch being a nice finisher in situations where you manage to win the neutral. But I still see Sheik being the strongest force in neutral, and with more than enough potency in advantage and disadvantage to make skill a bigger factor than character in overcoming her.

I was under the impression that EJP isn't what pushes Mario to "broken" territory, but I don't think any combination of his customs pushes him ahead of Sheik and ZSS. I suppose his customs importance would look something like this (someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm interested):
Shocking Cape >>>>>>>>>> Explosive Jump Punch > Scalding Fludd >>>>>>> fast fireballs > barely relevant.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pikachu is not OP with Customs.
HSB requires setup to actually succeed, and Thunder Wave, while decent, doesn't have nearly as much camping/pressure potential as Thunder Jolt. Pikachu loses one of the tools that helps him excel in neutral to gain the ability to cheese opponents.
I personally think HSB is bonkers, but does not make Pikachu jump to broken tier.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes with "If a good player can do it, anyone can at this very moment without practice!" regarding customs. Versus in general.

And hey, if you need to practice to do something with customs... is it still broken?

 

[Xeze]

I was under the impression that EJP isn't what pushes Mario to "broken" territory, but I don't think any combination of his customs pushes him ahead of Sheik and ZSS. I suppose his customs importance would look something like this (someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm interested):
Shocking Cape >>>>>>>>>> Explosive Jump Punch > Scalding Fludd >>>>>>> fast fireballs > barely relevant.

Scalding FLUDD and Fast Fireballs are both better than Explosive Jump Punch, imo.

 

[Raijinken]

Scalding FLUDD and Fast Fireballs are both better than Explosive Jump Punch, imo.

The FLUDDs are pretty good examples of valid side-grade picks. As for Fast Fireballs, they help sometimes, but the fact that they literally deal no hitstun at long range takes a bit from their effectiveness. Not a total upgrade, but great to have.

EJP is a comboable kill move. But then again, I over-estimate moves like that since I can actually land them on my friends.

 

[Terotrous]

It just sounds like since the top tiers don't get amazing mileage out of customs the top dogs that play those characters write off customs entirely even when a character like Palutena was built off the idea of custom moves being a thing? Sounds a bit selfish and stingy.

Sonic, Rosalina, and Pikachu aren't considered top tier anymore?

Restricting any character's options will only stagnate the game in the long run.

In the same sense that turning items off and only playing on a third the stages in the game also makes it stagnant?

In most cases, strategic depth actually arises from limitation rather than flexibility, as the strategy involves figuring out how to make optimal use of the limited resources at your disposal. Imagine if a game like Warcraft eliminated the concept of money. You have so many more options now since you can build whatever you want! However, the game would instantly become far less interesting, because making tough choices between many things that you would like to have is what the game is all about. Similarly, in a fighting game, if you remove all the weaknesses from the characters in the name of balance, you just end up with a dull game where everyone plays the same and matchup dynamics don't exist.

Custom moves unquestionably make the cast stronger, but there's little to no evidence that they make the balance in the game any better, and I would argue that they make many matchups less interesting by overcentralizing the neutral game around a handful of super powerful / broken moves.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Custom moves unquestionably make the cast stronger, but there's little to no evidence that they make the balance in the game any better, and I would argue that they make many matchups less interesting by overcentralizing the neutral game around a handful of super powerful / broken moves

There is no evidence of the opposite either, it's just a matter of people refusing to play it for no good reason.

The neutral does never overcentralize on the new moves, they simply are added to the pool of available tools.
"but EBT, TS, KC, et al!" they are just new tools, and even if they might be powerful, they are all beatable.

To me, the top 10 of best spammable specials at Neutral would be:
1- Needle Storm
2 -Monado Arts (all variations)
3 -Bonus Fruit
4 -Metal Blade
5 -Timber Counter
6 -Pushy Lloid/Lloid Rocket (both are pretty good)
7 -Shooting Star Bit
8 -Fireball/Fireball/Megavitamines/Thunderjolt (they all serve the exact same purpose)
9 -Arcfire+Thunder (Grouping them as they have good synergy with each other, also, a worthy mention to Speed Thunder)
10 - Sun Salutation/Enriched Sun Salutation.

Is just a personal list I just made up, can be improved, but anyway please note that out of these, only 2 moves are Custom-exclusive. Everything else is present on either metagame or has a similar version anyway, so "overcentralizing" might be an overstatement.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Sonic, Rosalina, and Pikachu aren't considered top tier anymore?



In the same sense that turning items off and only playing on a third the stages in the game also makes it stagnant?

In most cases, strategic depth actually arises from limitation rather than flexibility, as the strategy involves figuring out how to make optimal use of the limited resources at your disposal. Imagine if a game like Warcraft eliminated the concept of money. You have so many more options now since you can build whatever you want! However, the game would instantly become far less interesting, because making tough choices between many things that you would like to have is what the game is all about. Similarly, in a fighting game, if you remove all the weaknesses from the characters in the name of balance, you just end up with a dull game where everyone plays the same and matchup dynamics don't exist.

Custom moves unquestionably make the cast stronger, but there's little to no evidence that they make the balance in the game any better, and I would argue that they make many matchups less interesting by overcentralizing the neutral game around a handful of super powerful / broken moves.

As you said with everyone playing the same if you remove custom moves from the equation you remove your options and thus limit every character in the game to their base movepool. Therefore everything will be the same and all matchups will more or less be clear and obvious to see. With Customs you are making a choice on what you are bringing to a match and it could be good or bad.

And personally drawing a comparison between currency in a MMO and attacks in a fighter is a poor argument. If you remove currency you lose more options then gain them since with currency you could use that to trade for various items off the ingame market, remove currency and you would have build and make everything off your own kit. And in Warcraft I believe you can't level a class in every profession unlike say FF XIV where you can be everything. Likewise in Smash some characters naturally excel in any environment off their base kit which would be the perceived higher tiers, however others can perform much better with the additional options available to them which can be prominently lower tiers and even can boost the pre-stated higher tiers as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In the same sense that turning items off and only playing on a third the stages in the game also makes it stagnant?

If you ask me, limiting the stages is also turning the game a bit stagnant, yes. (Super Smashville Bros FTW...ugh.) A lot of items are borked no matter how you slice it so I'm okay with them being banned en masse.