What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[PoptartLord]

One commonly thrown about opinion that absolutely infuriates me is "they don't make the game more balanced, therefore we shouldn't add them in". Along with the supporting statement "a few characters don't also get better, that's too unfair".

First point: I find this perspective to be quite off. This isn't a mod; we [the community] didn't *add* anything to the game. These are new things that the game creators added in. All we do is decide what to subtract, and in this case I've gotten the impression that we've subtracted the new thing because it's a new thing.

Second point: There is no consistency with using the word "balanced". For example, one person says that X characters get to use their tools to better perform in the 1v1 tournament meta. This leads to more viable characters and thus better balance. Another person then counters with the argument that since Y characters in that situation don't have other tools to better perform in the 1v1 tournament meta they're worse off, which is unfair and therefore makes things less balanced. So the end result is both better and worse balance simultaneously, somehow.

Third point: So what if some characters have a greater amount of useful alternate specials than others?* Isn't the entirety of the meta (and the point of tiers) an understanding of how the complete toolkits known as characters interact with each other? There are hundreds upon hundreds of pages on this very site filled with discussion about this and the conclusion is that some toolkits fare better than average while other toolkits fare worse than average. And we're okay with this gradient. But the moment we stop restricting toolkits and positions within the gradient change, people flip out / lose their minds. I just don't get it - of course things look differently when you zoom out and see the big picture.
*This being said, anything overpowered should be toned down. Right now none of them fall under this category.

Fourth point: Stop pointing at DLC characters and saying "they don't get these options; in the name of fairness there will be no options for anyone". I don't like that they don't have those options either. It makes them feel.... incomplete. I wouldn't have shipped them out that way, at least. Anyway, all that means is that their toolkits are slightly smaller than the others. A tool count is not a good metric for deciding fairness here. By that logic I could argue that since DLC characters get to use 100% of their toolkit so should the rest of the cast.

-PoptartLord

 

[MysteriousSilver]

And I'm saying that he didn't design Palutena with customs in mind. More likely he designed Megaman around them... At least he doesn't become a cheap knock-off of another character and they work well in the main mode of Smash.

Again, I find it more likely that she was just chosen to advertise custom moves. Her customs wouldn't be completely outclassed on every front otherwise. If she really was designed around them she'd suck without them instead of getting worse with them. Heck, if she was designed around them there'd of been some kind of distinction between custom moves and equipment somewhere in the base game and not as an afterthought in a highly flawed mode.

I clearly missed something because the way I'm reading your post it seems like you're saying that Palutena is worse with customs on

 

[GeneralLedge]

Everyone is worse with customs on, because Sheik gets access to custom needles.

You know what's worse than Sheik?

Sheik with a free sheildbreak option.

Close the topic, we're done here.

 

[Raijinken]

Pheheh. Tell that to the Zelda mains. You'll get laughed off of Smashboards.

Scarcely different for being laughed off for being a Zelda main. I'm certainly an outsider as I don't even main any more, but not even for some generalized "just in case" optimization would I run pure default Zelda. For that matter, the only character I run pure default is Diddy, and he's considered to have a worthwhile custom or two.

 

[LancerStaff]

One commonly thrown about opinion that absolutely infuriates me is "they don't make the game more balanced, therefore we shouldn't add them in". Along with the supporting statement "a few characters don't also get better, that's too unfair".

First point: I find this perspective to be quite off. This isn't a mod; we [the community] didn't *add* anything to the game. These are new things that the game creators added in. All we do is decide what to subtract, and in this case I've gotten the impression that we've subtracted the new thing because it's a new thing.

Second point: There is no consistency with using the word "balanced". For example, one person says that X characters get to use their tools to better perform in the 1v1 tournament meta. This leads to more viable characters and thus better balance. Another person then counters with the argument that since Y characters in that situation don't have other tools to better perform in the 1v1 tournament meta they're worse off, which is unfair and therefore makes things less balanced. So the end result is both better and worse balance simultaneously, somehow.

Third point: So what if some characters have a greater amount of useful alternate specials than others?* Isn't the entirety of the meta (and the point of tiers) an understanding of how the complete toolkits known as characters interact with each other? There are hundreds upon hundreds of pages on this very site filled with discussion about this and the conclusion is that some toolkits fare better than average while other toolkits fare worse than average. And we're okay with this gradient. But the moment we stop restricting toolkits and positions within the gradient change, people flip out / lose their minds. I just don't get it - of course things look differently when you zoom out and see the big picture.
*This being said, anything overpowered should be toned down. Right now none of them fall under this category.

Fourth point: Stop pointing at DLC characters and saying "they don't get these options; in the name of fairness there will be no options for anyone". I don't like that they don't have those options either. It makes them feel.... incomplete. I wouldn't have shipped them out that way, at least. Anyway, all that means is that their toolkits are slightly smaller than the others. A tool count is not a good metric for deciding fairness here. By that logic I could argue that since DLC characters get to use 100% of their toolkit so should the rest of the cast.

-PoptartLord

We've subtracted the new thing because it's unfun fighting planking Villagers, Sonics with stronger spindashes, Foxes with stronger projectile games and crazy overtuned Marios. Any other reason after that is just another complaint added to the pile.

You're not proving that customs are objectively fun any time soon, and that's why the movement has all but stalled out.

I clearly missed something because the way I'm reading your post it seems like you're saying that Palutena is worse with customs on

Her customs are trash in FFAs. Warp is too good to give up, SS is just a bad idea and AM is merely okay when there's nothing to reflect, EF is a mixed bag, and LW is a death wish. She gets a little in custom FFAs, but it's nothing compared to Dorf, Bowser and Ike's increased recovery.

Scarcely different for being laughed off for being a Zelda main. I'm certainly an outsider as I don't even main any more, but not even for some generalized "just in case" optimization would I run pure default Zelda. For that matter, the only character I run pure default is Diddy, and he's considered to have a worthwhile custom or two.

Talk about comically missing the point... The Zeldas, Puffs, Falcos and whoever else has bad customs wouldn't ever go for said customs simply because it make their mains worse in comparison to everybody else. Right away that's about a fifth of the playerbase you're never going to get votes from. Just like how the SLHG group isn't getting votes from characters with good SHAC games.

 

[GeneralLedge]

We've subtracted the new thing because it's unfun fighting planking Villagers, Sonics with stronger spindashes, Foxes with stronger projectile games and crazy overtuned Marios. Any other reason after that is just another complaint added to the pile.

You're not proving that customs are objectively fun any time soon, and that's why the movement has all but stalled out.

Then we disallow the things that make customs objectively unfun.

Presently, however, customs that are 'objectively unfun' have been met with the players themselves being verbally harassed and discouraged from playing the game they love ever again.

If we had a list of every custom and the reasons why it's unfun to go up against, maybe we could utilize it to improve the way customs are presented. To compromise those moves with mandatory flaws?

 

[Djent]

In another thread, @Man Li Gi asks:

Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.

There is never a unified rationale why something is or isn't allowed. This is true of politics in general, and certainly extends to Smash politics. Consider another case where the community was split, but then later unanimously united against an optional gameplay element. Consider...items:

• When I first started reading these boards, I heard that the randomness introduced into the game by items was inherently uncompetitive. Which is a completely understandable position for reasonable person to hold, regardless of whether or not you agree. But I'm not sure it's the whole story anymore.
• When I spoke with the ISP crowd, who insisted that the inability to disable exploding capsules was the specific reason items were deemed problematic. Which is also understandable, but suggests that current and future policies are based on a constraint which no longer applies, which of course complicates things.
• Then I watched the Smash documentary, where one of the interviewees attributed the shift to a change in a particular TO's opinion. Now this is getting a bit political. One person probably shouldn't hold this kind of power over an entire community, but realistically? Look at how the APEX and EVO rulesets affect subsequent perceptions and decisions on the legality of custom moves. It's quite plausible that the opinions of particular high-status individuals do exert a large (undue?) influence.

At this point it became clear to me that a different kind of explanation was in order. Now I'd say that once public opinion edges too far to one side, it tumbles into an attractor basin created by the confluence of a number of theoretical and pragmatic factors. And once it's there, individuals will never again escape in large numbers. Regardless of whether items can be reasonably justified in any competitive format, I highly doubt they will never be considered seriously by a large, organized group of influential people again. I think the same, rightly or wrongly, is true of customs.

Edited for clarity.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's a fifth of the cast, and you're lowballing it. Basically you're telling all the players of those characters to **** off. You understand why people would be against it? Like usual, you're only looking at just one complaint instead of the whole picture.

Pheheh. Tell that to the Zelda mains. You'll get laughed off of Smashboards.

Dude, the reason I do not get the argument is because I *do* Play Zelda. And Meta Knight (and like to use Ruy and Roy). Zelda is still bottom tier and Meta Knight gains a couple difficult/potentially bad matchups. so what? Is not about personal gain, is about aiding a METAGAME to expand. THAT's looking at the whole picture.

Everyone is worse with customs on, because Sheik gets access to custom needles.

You know what's worse than Sheik?

Sheik with a free sheildbreak option.

Close the topic, we're done here.

Penetrating Needles got nerfed at 1.1.1.

 

[LancerStaff]

Dude, the reason I do not get the argument is because I *do* Play Zelda. And Meta Knight (and like to use Ruy and Roy). Zelda is still bottom tier and Meta Knight gains a couple difficult/potentially bad matchups. so what? Is not about personal gain, is about aiding a METAGAME to expand. THAT's looking at the whole picture.

Whoopdiedingledoo. Most people aren't willing to knock their mains down for a "better" metagame. The average Zelda or Mewtwo is going to flat-out say "no" to it because it inherently helps their metagame. You underestimate the power of character bias.

No reason to ever use Roy in customs anyway... Crescent Slash makes him completely useless.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Still wondering if we're gonna look for a compromise or if we'll sit here complaining about how bad the game is forevermore.

I mean I get it, I really do, every character sucks forever plus infinity when customs are on. Except those who don't.

Do we want to maybe fix this ourselves instead of ineffectually complaining about it? Can anyone anti-customs please make a statement regarding how you would look at fixing it?

Or are we too gosh darn lazy to try?

In any case, patch hype in a few days, maybe another handful of customs will be looked at. Maybe the Spinphony meta will finally begin.

 

[Raijinken]

Anyone more concerned with their character's tier status, especially an already-low tier character, at the expense of the metagame as a whole, can quit, and I will applaud their departure. They should probably quit playing games that receive balance patches.

Anyways, the objectivity argument isn't working in either direction. Plankager is fun to play against people bad against it, and fun to play against if you have the faintest clue what a spike is. There's nothing objective in either direction from a fun stance.

Roy's fun in customs simply because the game becomes more fun in customs (opinion). Equating Blazer to Crescent Slash is laughable.

 

[LancerStaff]

Anyone more concerned with their character's tier status, especially an already-low tier character, at the expense of the metagame as a whole, can quit, and I will applaud their departure. They should probably quit playing games that receive balance patches.

Anyways, the objectivity argument isn't working in either direction. Plankager is fun to play against people bad against it, and fun to play against if you have the faintest clue what a spike is. There's nothing objective in either direction from a fun stance.

Roy's fun in customs simply because the game becomes more fun in customs (opinion). Equating Blazer to Crescent Slash is laughable.

MK and Ryu aren't low tier... And again, you're under the assumption that people generally think the customs meta is better. Most players of characters with good customs would rather have them off just so they don't have to deal with the other garbage it brings in. Plenty of Marth's I know hate customs because it makes Marth viable in probably the most BS way possible, such as Vipermoon.

No, Crescent Slash isn't Blazer, it's just a better designed move then Blazer since it's an unavoidable kill confirm out of a grab release on most characters. It patches up Marth's shield problems and KO problems while pumping up his damage output, while Roy is left with mediocre grab reward and no easy way to kill. And then there's the fact that Marth has a much easier time dealing with combos and has a good recovery, even with Crescent Slash. Dashing Assault too helps with recovery, and since the default Shield Breaker is nearly junk now there's less competition for that Nspecial slot. At best Roy could be useful in the matchups where CS isn't a kill confirm, but Marth's other customs likely make up for what little Roy has over him.

You even have one matchup where Roy would be better then custom Marth?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Marth using heavy dancing blade.

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth using heavy dancing blade.

If I understand you correctly, you're misunderstanding. I said better then custom Marth, not better then a custom Marth. I'm talking about picking and choosing the best customs for a matchup. Like when people rate custom Palutena higher then default Palutena... People are assuming Lightweight and Super Speed, not Heavenly Light and Celestial Fireworks.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Well why do we pick the best ones?

It clearly hasn't been working. So let's pick different ones.

 

[Pazx]

Why are you comparing Roy and Marth in a thread about customs? It's like saying there's no reason to ever play Luigi because Mario is better.

 

[NewZen]

Honestly, the more and more the debate continues, the more and more we face a divide in the general consensus of whether or not we should allow Customs as part of the standard Meta. Thing is,the people who want Customs to be allowed are just going to have to accept that most people simply do not care to use the bloody things, primarily because of general stereotypes that come from the opinions of others (You know, the very things that actually determine whether or not Customs should be allowed in the first place):

-Jank and Toxic Gamplay (these guys come to mind in regards to this claim)
-Tedium in unlocking them
-Overpowering/Depowering certain characters
-Not everyone wants to utilize said customs from the Customs Project, leading to more time being wasted for a setup of their characters
-The DLC cast does not have any, which gives them a disadvantage and is thus unfair
-They allow the Meta to evolve in a good/bad way and allow for more variety/too much complexity

Even still, as it stands, EVO and other events this year had shown them off and they were still met with general criticism or just downright disinterest, and while they could actually change the pace of the game, for every argument in their favor, there's always a counterargument against them and vice-versa that repeats ad-nausea. There's my 2 Cents on this subject.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The conclusion I have ultimately reached is that customs don't work in this game. I will argue forever that the customs meta is hands-down superior to default Smash, but that frankly doesn't matter. They are just way too hard to unlock. I have all of them, as do most of the customs players, but unlocking them takes forever, is tedious, and isn't what people want to do when they play Smash. Because of this, logistics are a nightmare, Project or no. And more importantly, it splits the community. Because for every player versed in customs, there's another who can't practice with them and isn't versed at all in the customs meta or even what the moves DO. So the meta takes much longer to evolve the way the default meta can. If customs were unlocked from the get-go, or if they were unlocked more easily, (say you unlocked a character's customs by completing single-player modes with them, which you can reasonably expect any smash player to do) we could count on the entire playerbase having them, and we'd be set to create a true custom meta. But as it is, it's not an element we can expect any given smash player to have the same way we can expect them to have every character, stage, and mii fighter type.

You can solve jank. Jank in customs is just people not understanding the moves. I still think any argument against customs based on what the moves do (cyclone, crescent slash, EBT) isn't getting at the heart of the issue. Because nobody would complain about them if they were the defaults. Same with DLC characters not getting any or characters like Zelda or MK not getting good ones. That's just how the cards play out. Ganon has crap default specials and was given bad frame data. We could accept these as idiosyncrasies of Smash play and move on. The real problem is a lack of accessibility and the inability of the customs meta to assume that everyone has access to every relevant custom move.

Should miis be legal with all their moves intact and guest miis? Absolutely. Guest miis and mii fighter moves are something we can expect every smash player to have. Should Palutena get customs? Probably, but that would require the rest of the cast to give up on their customs entirely and I don't see that happening, but it remains that Palutena's customs are a given we can guarantee every smash player having. But custom sets for everyone else? Until Sakurai makes them easier to unlock in a patch, I can't see the meta accepting them just because of lack of access. Should that day arise, you bet your tail I'll be pushing for legal customs due to their potential. Until then, I'll talk about how cool they are, offer friendlies with my customs-friendly setup, and so on, but I can't bring myself to push for them nationally when a huge chunk of the playerbase doesn't have them.

 

[PoptartLord]

2nd they make tourney setup take longer. 3rd I think they'll discourage noobs from rising to the competitive level. Last but not least, they are not balanced but rather throwing powerful exploits at some of the cast. Sure custom moves can be beaten but the meta will revolve more around them than good fundamental play.

Could you expand on "2nd"? Specifically on where the extra time lies. You can assume that the setups will be using sets uploaded from a 3DS, as that's the most reasonable standard we have right now. Why yes, I am assuming the next version of the CMP will be better.
"3rd": Really? I would put that reason very low on the list (if at all). Much bigger factors include: low confidence, finding an offline scene, apprehension about playing against much stronger players, and even thinking that they're too late to do so.
"Last": Could you give a short list of examples? I'm curious as to which ones, specifically, people still think this about. All I ever read is vague statements like "a bunch of", "several", and "a list of". Oh and a short explanation, like "<move> because of absurd, easy kill power", would be great.

Customs are not, should not, and should never be a statistical "better than" across the board.
Customs are a way to change the character in a way that suits the player.

It's excruciatingly disappointing that any custom moves are "better than" others. And even further that we refuse to explore them in the event that MAYBE WE'RE WRONG about there being undisputed 'better-than-default customs'.

This guy gets it. And every "undisputed" move comes with a drawback. Whether or not that drawback matters depends on the player and game mode.

Some customs are better and not distributed in a balanced way.

Why "fix" what's not broken?

On the first part: Can you expand on the part about distribution? The way I'm reading it you're basically complaining that some characters are better than others. In a game with >50 characters and >1 play mode. That is still being actively patched in response to usage data. As exemplified by the moveset focus of v1.1.1 being on the moves that were just able to be usable in an online mode.
On the second part: don't ask me, ask the game creators that put them in in the first place. While you have their attention, ask why they expanded the cast list; the previous game's roster wasn't bad enough to be considerd broken.

Without customs [Palutena]'s really her own thing

Agreed. How well her own thing works is a separate issue.

One argument against customs I'll never understand why people think is important is that some characters don't benefit from them.

Same here. Part of it is that there's more to Smash 4 than 1v1 without items and on a restricted stage list. Another is that some alternates were designed specifically for low quality players and thus horribly horribly bad choices for tournament play, and that's equivalent to 0 benefit in people's eyes.
Here's a couple of examples: Marth's Effortless Blade removes the up and down variants (no "complicated" inputs needed) and increases the input window for subsequent strikes (makes the chain easier to input), in exchange for dealing less damage. Nobody would ever choose to use this in a tournament, but terrible players that can't get the timing for Dancing Blade right would. Luigi's Fiery Jump Punch widens the sweetspot range at the expense of damage. Again, terrible for tournaments, great for beginners that don't have good spacing abilities.

Well I don't quite understand how customs will get better if we never use customs and don't give Nintendo a better reference for which customs go unused, to be buffed.

Exactly. How many times now have we seen balance patches that reduce a character's most overused / abused option while buffing some of the least used ones (so that more of the whole moveset gets used)? ...ok, off the top of my head I can only think of Diddy Kong getting a better jab and dash attack while removing... something... and more recently Luigi losing down throw to cyclone while making his down smash usable. But it's definitely a general direction that we've seen when studying/making release notes.

Bleh, I really need to stop posting so late. It just hit midnight here.

-PoptartLord

 

[ぱみゅ]

It worked greatly in my community that I personally installed the CMP sets to any interested player's Wii U so they could practice. At the day of the tournament most people were prepared, and I had not to install them again if players lent their Wii Us, so it always ran smoothly. (spoilers: tournament was won by a default Mario, followed by a default Sheik and a default Yoshi with a dash of Iceball Luigi).

It doesn't work anymore because the CMP is outdated (I guess it could if I only transfer sets 1-8).

 

[Rizen]

Could you expand on "2nd"? Specifically on where the extra time lies. You can assume that the setups will be using sets uploaded from a 3DS, as that's the most reasonable standard we have right now. Why yes, I am assuming the next version of the CMP will be better.
"3rd": Really? I would put that reason very low on the list (if at all). Much bigger factors include: low confidence, finding an offline scene, apprehension about playing against much stronger players, and even thinking that they're too late to do so.
"Last": Could you give a short list of examples? I'm curious as to which ones, specifically, people still think this about. All I ever read is vague statements like "a bunch of", "several", and "a list of". Oh and a short explanation, like "<move> because of absurd, easy kill power", would be great.

2nd: Not everyone has all customs unlocked. People have to bring their own Wii Us and each must be synced with a 3DS. Everyone must choose the customs they want for each character they play and sometimes people will want to counter-pick custom moves for certain MUs (for example Ganon usually wants flame choke but will want flame wave vs Zelda because she rolls too far on tech and the non-grabbing variation vs Rosalina because Luma). These add maybe 5 minutes to each initial setup and 3 minutes per game. If you have 40 players that time really adds up.
3rd: Again custom moves take about 100 hours to unlock, casual people won't put that much time into the game. Then customs encourage exploiting powerful moves rather than fundamental play which is hard to deal with if you don't know each custom setup. The games are less fun to watch and that will turn new players off to considering competitive smash. Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yynXqx03VY
Last:
DK's wind upB because it has armor frames and auto cancels making it extremely spammable. Villager's trip sapling, exploding balloons because it allows him to plank for easy damage then simply run to the edge and reset the situation. Rosalina's Luma warp and far shooting starbits because they further enhance one of the best keep away characters by giving her a long range projectile. Mario's high pressure fludd, and fast fireball because they're strait upgrades on a top tier character that completely destroy characters with poor recovery distance (the former) and let one of the most mobile characters zone even better. Mario's wind cape and pretty much any wind custom like Ike's Aether because they make Little Mac completely non-viable with absurdly bad MUs. CF's moving Falcon punch because it is a strait upgrade to a high tier character when low tiers like Jiggly puff get no benefits and CF's lightning kick because it true combos into Fair Knee. Fox's slow blaster because it gives a character with extremely good close range combat options and a reflector a long range kill move. Pika's meteor upB because it buffs a high tier who has really good edgeguarding further. Marth/Lucina's crescent blade because it gives them a grab release>KO move and low %s. Any upB that has more power on a character who can Dthrow>juggle with Uairs because those combos already kill early in SSB4 and are easy to do (see MK, ZSS, etc). Pacman's meteor trampoline because it has really good edge guarding properties and is a frame 3 lasting meteor. Shulk's Extreme counter because it kills at 5%. Diddy's para bananas because they buff a high tier who already has good options. WFT's heavy breathing because it's a strait upgrade, her jumbo hoops for much the same reason DK's upB is annoying and it's shield pressure and safety. And WFT's sweeping sun saturation because it's a huge store-able range attack that carries characters into the side blastzone.

Customs add unnecessary exploits to the most balanced smash ever, take forever to unlock with tedious gameplay like repeating allstar mode over and over, discourage new players to competitive smash and make tournaments take longer. There's no reason besides preference why the custom meta is better than the vanilla meta and customs are an added inconvenience. Adding customs, although they can be fun, is not a good standard for competitive smash.

Why "fix" what's not broken? It's like taking a chess game, tossing a handful of rubber bands over the board and saying 'the pieces lucky enough to have a rubber band land around them can also move like a Knight'. Sure some pawns become better but then there's the Queen (and her Luma) getting a rubberband. And the pawns who didn't get them are even worse proportionately. It mixes the game up but a lot of serious players don't like that kind of thing.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Spoiler: Venting

I strongly appreciate these arguments ignoring my and GeneralLedge 's applicable fix to the problem.

I've had at least one decent idea to remedy even the complaint that some customs are more OP than others, and that idea is publicized, named sets. Sets tested extensively by the community to not be better than the default, but to offer a proper logistical shift in the way you play the character, as I'm sure customs were intended.

You can ***** about customs all you want until you're blue in the face. If it isn't helping the problem, you aren't helping. You aren't providing solutions. You're complaining for the sake of complaining because it makes you feel like you're a part of something larger. And no, it isn't helping. It isn't goddamn helping that you've ******* about Kong Cyclong for the 200th time on record on this forum. 200 people have ******* about it before you. You are not adding anything other than your own hot air.

COMPROMISE. Is that hard? Is it hard for you to think of a solution for the problem, other than shutting down other people and feeling super cool about your ability to effortlessly complain on the internet?

Can any mother****ing anti-custom pleb, at this or any second, suggest an alternative answer to "these customs are broken" that IS NOT "BAN ALL CUSTOMS"? Are you capable of such a feat??? I sit here wracking my brain for compromise, and you sit there wracking you brain for which custom move you haven't ******* about yet, to support your argument against learning a part of the game.

Every single anti-custom user I have seen who has ******* about custom moves being overpowered and ending the argument then and there, is a petulant child. A child who has dropped his ice cream and has begun kicking and screaming about it, shouting "no" at their mother when she offers to buy them a new one.

If you cannot fix the issue, you are not fixing the issue.

With that out of the way,

DK's wind upB because it has armor frames and auto cancels making it extremely spammable. Villager's trip sapling, exploding balloons because it allows him to plank for easy damage then simply run to the edge and reset the situation. Rosalina's Luma warp and far shooting starbits because they further enhance one of the best keep away characters by giving her a long range projectile. Mario's high pressure fludd, and fast fireball because they're strait upgrades on a top tier character that completely destroy characters with poor recovery distance (the former) and let one of the most mobile characters zone even better. Mario's wind cape and pretty much any wind custom like Ike's Aether because they make Little Mac completely non-viable with absurdly bad MUs. CF's moving Falcon punch because it is a strait upgrade to a high tier character when low tiers like Jiggly puff get no benefits and CF's lightning kick because it true combos into Fair Knee. Fox's slow blaster because it gives a character with extremely good close range combat options and a reflector a long range kill move. Pika's meteor upB because it buffs a high tier who has really good edgeguarding further. Marth/Lucina's crescent blade because it gives them a grab release>KO move and low %s. Any upB that has more power on a character who can Dthrow>juggle with Uairs because those combos already kill early in SSB4 and are easy to do (see MK, ZSS, etc). Pacman's meteor trampoline because it has really good edge guarding properties and is a frame 3 lasting meteor. Shulk's Extreme counter because it kills at 5%. Diddy's para bananas because they buff a high tier who already has good options. WFT's heavy breathing because it's a strait upgrade, her jumbo hoops for much the same reason DK's upB is annoying and it's shield pressure and safety. And WFT's sweeping sun saturation because it's a huge store-able range attack that carries characters into the side blastzone.

Let me propose something straightforward: Of each singular custom that is OP, such as Kong Cyclone, is there an applicable "compromise" move that the same character has, that is objectively worse enough than the default that it balances out the problem? Or an applicable "compromise" in adjacent OP moves, such as "Mario cannot run fast fireball and high-pressure fludd at the same time"?

These such compromises would address this issue, and possibly "fix" it.


We've compromised before about unlocking custom moves via DS powersaving, but if that is no longer a solution, perhaps we should look to the super-cool hackers for unlocking everything with a game exploit?

 

[Rizen]

Let me propose something straightforward: Of each singular custom that is OP, such as Kong Cyclone, is there an applicable "compromise" move that the same character has, that is objectively worse enough than the default that it balances out the problem? Or an applicable "compromise" in adjacent OP moves, such as "Mario cannot run fast fireball and high-pressure fludd at the same time"?

These such compromises would address this issue, and possibly "fix" it.


We've compromised before about unlocking custom moves via DS powersaving, but if that is no longer a solution, perhaps we should look to the super-cool hackers for unlocking everything with a game exploit?

That sounds like something the community will spend endless hours arguing over with no real conclusion. "Mario gets fast fireball but no HP Fludd", "But Mario's scalding Fludd is still better," "Fine Mario gets no custom Fludd with fast fireball", "Then why does Ike get wind erruption and the aether that goes diagonally but Mario only gets 1 custom move" "Mario can have his custom upB too" "Mario doesn't need an upB with no attack"... and so on. Customs only really are fair as an all or nothing deal.

Do such hacks exist? The Wii U has to update before playing a new game so that doesn't sound very practical imo.

 

[ZarroTsu]

That sounds like something the community will spend endless hours arguing over with no real conclusion.

Ironically, this seems to be what has been happening for the past year already. At least with one, we'd be advancing towards a solution, or towards finding that there is no solution. Instead of blindly moaning back and forth about it.

Alternatively, what if we backpedaled and only ran 1111/2222/3333's? How many of these are OP? How many are UP? Do we know where on the tier list 2222 Luigi fits versus 3333 Megaman? (I don't think we do). It would be nice to figure that out as well.

 

[Rizen]

Ironically, this seems to be what has been happening for the past year already. At least with one, we'd be advancing towards a solution, or towards finding that there is no solution. Instead of blindly moaning back and forth about it.

Alternatively, what if we backpedaled and only ran 1111/2222/3333's? How many of these are OP? How many are UP? Do we know where on the tier list 2222 Luigi fits versus 3333 Megaman? (I don't think we do). It would be nice to figure that out as well.

No we have the solution. It's have customs set to 'off' and it solves every problem.

Those combinations work great for some character like Ganon and terrible for others. :/

 

[GeneralLedge]

If customs were a separate competition, and not the mainstream meta environment, how would turning customs off fix the issue?

Complaints that certain customs are overpowered or broken is valid, and addressable.

Proposing we scrap everything without exploring or improving the system... Why? It isn't going to replace customs-off. It will not affect you at all.

Those combinations work great for some character like Ganon and terrible for others. :/

My first instinct is to remind you that the same could be said of characters themselves, and there's no fixing them either, save for balance patches. Sheik's moveset combination works great for her, while Samus or Zelda or whoever is bottom-tier-of-the-week's moveset does not.

But that's neither here nor there, and exactly as ineffective a statement as the same statement regarding customs. We could ban Sheik. But we don't.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait, are we still pretending that Kong Cyclone and Villager customs are problematic in November of 2015?

 

[NewZen]

If customs were a separate competition, and not the mainstream meta environment, how would turning customs off fix the issue?

Complaints that certain customs are overpowered or broken is valid, and addressable.

Proposing we scrap everything without exploring or improving the system... Why? It isn't going to replace customs-off. It will not affect you at all.


My first instinct is to remind you that the same could be said of characters themselves, and there's no fixing them either, save for balance patches. Sheik's moveset combination works great for her, while Samus or Zelda or whoever is bottom-tier-of-the-week's moveset does not.

But that's neither here nor there, and exactly as ineffective a statement as the same statement regarding customs. We could ban Sheik. But we don't.

Clarify this statement for me, please, because it sounds like you're saying, "We shouldn't ban customs because it's the same as banning characters", if that's what I'm getting. And if that's the comparison, how is that even applicable given that Customs are an optional part of the game that requires a switch to work, but characters are already accessible and don't require any customs to work?

Again, if I misinterpreted this, by all means, correct me-I'm curious.

Wait, are we still pretending that Kong Cyclone and Villager customs are problematic in November of 2015?

It's not so much those who know how to deal with it, it's the people who see it and immediately think that they are "Jank" because they are hard to deal with.

Again, the general consensus on Customs as a whole is trying to attract people and advocate them to allow it as part of the general meta, but still, who is going to want to use them if they appear as a tedious unlock system and toxic to watch/play against?

Wait, are we still pretending that Kong Cyclone and Villager customs are problematic in November of 2015?

 

[GeneralLedge]

Free-for-all customs, as we currently have them, very possibly don't work. We may or may not have valid proof of this, but certain combinations with individual characters (such as Mario), are leaps and bounds ahead of their 1111 counterpart.

This in itself isn't necessarily a flaw, but it can certainly be seen as one. When the 1111 counterpart is rendered superfluous, it's a flaw of customs themselves almost certainly. They should not be one-way upgrades across the board, and I will remain hopeful, however fickle, that they get balanced in such a way, eventually, that they will all be side-grades.

If free-for-all customs aren't working out, as many anti-custom players moan and groan about every time customs are brought into the light of discussion, then we need to approach them differently. If we reduce the ability for multiple upgrade customs to be used together, or straight-up change the way we handle them into tweaked and balanced 'sets', we might see a solution that solves the issue where 1111's are rendered pointless in a custom setting.

One can choose to ignore the existence of 1111 sets in a custom-on environment entirely if they so choose, but the adjacent flaw is certain characters never getting stronger than 1111 in customs-on anyway. The current comparison between characters with weaker gains than others, is that they are rendered useless anyway. They are rendered weaker despite them supposedly being balanced with 1111, ergo if all 1111's are balanced, we should try to balance customs to their 1111's.

If we, as previously mentioned, backpedal to simply using 1111/2222/3333 exclusively, each of these sets, such as 2222 Luigi, or 3333 Megaman, are in fact their own 'character', because they act differently and are unique. Ideally, we shouldn't backpedal this far and should instead try to actively figure out which custom sets are the best balanced in relation to their owner's 1111, but at the moment the "2222" and "3333" sets are already provided and maintained by the game itself in certain modes (such as smash tour, insert laugh track here). While probably not competitively balanced, I'd like to imagine they have at least a little bit of viability in themselves if they were organized this way in an official game mode.

Wishful thinking, I know.

In any case, tl;dr if customs aren't working in an environment for free use, we should look to design custom sets as if they were characters, and go from there. I'd like to think that's how customs were intended.

 

[LancerStaff]

The core problem of balancing customs is that there really wouldn't be a point to them anymore if they were balanced. If Lightweight were nerfed to Counter's level of uselessness for example then people wouldn't be advocating them in the first place. The only reason most people want them is because it makes X viable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The core problem of balancing customs is that there really wouldn't be a point to them anymore if they were balanced. If Lightweight were nerfed to Counter's level of uselessness for example then people wouldn't be advocating them in the first place. The only reason most people want them is because it makes X viable.

Or...you know, buff Counter so it can compete with Lightweight? Balance is a two way street. (Granted counters in general tend to be meh, outliers like Vision notwithstanding, but the point stands.)

Also I don't really understand your first sentence. If customs were (somehow) perfectly balanced with defaults, how on earth would that be a reason to not use them? At that point literally the only obstacle would be the logistics of unlocking them all. Access to (balanced) options should never be an undesirable thing.

And that's a core reason why I enjoy customs so much. Even though they're not perfectly balanced, they provide options, and I enjoy experimenting with options even if they're suboptimal.

 

[LancerStaff]

Or...you know, buff Counter so it can compete with Lightweight? Balance is a two way street. (Granted counters in general tend to be meh, outliers like Vision notwithstanding, but the point stands.)

Also I don't really understand your first sentence. If customs were (somehow) perfectly balanced with defaults, how on earth would that be a reason to not use them? At that point literally the only obstacle would be the logistics of unlocking them all. Access to (balanced) options should never be an undesirable thing.

And that's a core reason why I enjoy customs so much. Even though they're not perfectly balanced, they provide options, and I enjoy experimenting with options even if they're suboptimal.

Balance isn't a two-way street in Smash though. Now really, do you think they'll ever buff Counter to be as good as Lightweight? I think you know the reason they won't.

The whole reason most people use and advocate for customs is because it makes their beloved little Duck Hunt or whatever "viable." Without the uneven distribution the tier list wouldn't be "better" and as a result most would see it as extra hassle that doesn't change much because the matchup spreads are the same.

Arguing for sub-optimal customs play for competitive ruleset... Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Nobody cares about when they fight the sub-optimal player that drowns in pools, they care when they have to fight overtuned Marios and Foxes.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Balance isn't a two-way street in Smash though. Now really, do you think they'll ever buff Counter to be as good as Lightweight? I think you know the reason they won't.

The whole reason most people use and advocate for customs is because it makes their beloved little Duck Hunt or whatever "viable." Without the uneven distribution the tier list wouldn't be "better" and as a result most would see it as extra hassle that doesn't change much because the matchup spreads are the same.

Arguing for sub-optimal customs play for competitive ruleset... Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Nobody cares about when they fight the sub-optimal player that drowns in pools, they care when they have to fight overtuned Marios and Foxes.

I simply fail to see a meaningful difference between fighting an optimally tuned default Sheik or ZSS who has basically everything they ever need in their default specials and fighting an optimally tuned custom Mario or Fox who get significant benefit from their new options. I admit that the challenge of getting all the customs unlocked is a legitimate obstacle to practicing against such characters (game save hacking, when?), but once you get that practice in then seriously, what's the difference?

(Also if I were in a srs bsns customs tournament I'd be 231(1/3) Rosalina. I just happen to enjoy experimentation in less serious contexts.)

Also, we're on version 1.1.1 (Or 1.1.2? I lost track.) of Smash, and the most recent patch changed a lot of customs. That, to me, is reasonable cause to expect any additional patches to try and create better parity between default and custom moves. So yes, buffing Counter (or nerfing Lightweight, which is admittedly still an option) is something that can still possibly happen.

 

[Raijinken]

Or...you know, buff Counter so it can compete with Lightweight? Balance is a two way street. (Granted counters in general tend to be meh, outliers like Vision notwithstanding, but the point stands.)

Also I don't really understand your first sentence. If customs were (somehow) perfectly balanced with defaults, how on earth would that be a reason to not use them? At that point literally the only obstacle would be the logistics of unlocking them all. Access to (balanced) options should never be an undesirable thing.

And that's a core reason why I enjoy customs so much. Even though they're not perfectly balanced, they provide options, and I enjoy experimenting with options even if they're suboptimal.

As this is essentially the entire point of a non-symmetrical competitive game, I fully agree.

 

[LancerStaff]

I simply fail to see a meaningful difference between fighting an optimally tuned default Sheik or ZSS who has basically everything they ever need in their default specials and fighting an optimally tuned custom Mario or Fox who get significant benefit from their new options. I admit that the challenge of getting all the customs unlocked is a legitimate obstacle to practicing against such characters (game save hacking, when?), but once you get that practice in then seriously, what's the difference?

(Also if I were in a srs bsns customs tournament I'd be 231(1/3) Rosalina. I just happen to enjoy experimentation in less serious contexts.)

Also, we're on version 1.1.1 (Or 1.1.2? I lost track.) of Smash, and the most recent patch changed a lot of customs. That, to me, is reasonable cause to expect any additional patches to try and create better parity between default and custom moves. So yes, buffing Counter (or nerfing Lightweight, which is admittedly still an option) is something that can still possibly happen.

The difference isn't between fighting Sheik or Custom Mario. It's Sheik or Sheik and Custom Mario.

Really now. You know what I'm talking about. Counter sucks because the game is balanced for FFAs. In FFAs it's actually useful, moreso then any of her other Dspecials. If they keep balancing customs then stuff like Wizard's Dropkick and Uppercutter will be nerfed into the ground because they're too good for FFAs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The difference isn't between fighting Sheik or Custom Mario. It's Sheik or Sheik and Custom Mario.

Really now. You know what I'm talking about. Counter sucks because the game is balanced for FFAs. In FFAs it's actually useful, moreso then any of her other Dspecials. If they keep balancing customs then stuff like Wizard's Dropkick and Uppercutter will be nerfed into the ground because they're too good for FFAs.

Great, we now have more characters on roughly even parity with Sheik et al. (I don't know offhand where Mario's generally ranked in default so this may or may not be a huge leap for him. I assume he's somewhere in the top 25% though.)

Also no, I didn't know you were referring to FFA at all. I generally assume all conversations on this subforum relate to 1v1, or maybe doubles, given that it's the competitive discussion subforum. FFA is not a mode I generally concern myself with in the slightest. The most I've done on that score is playing against level 1 AI fighters with my 10 year old cousin. (Spoilers: She's awful at the game.)

 

[GeneralLedge]

If every custom move were a side-grade, they would remain valid. They would remain valid because they change the way you play the character. By changing the way you play the character, it changes the way your opponent handles your differing application of the character.

This is what customs should do.

It is an unfortunate side-effect that some customs work better in tandem with eachother than others. This is unavoidable. But, if every custom had proper flaws to their strengths, the character in question using these moves that work in tandem, should have a much larger exploitable weakness. If the moves that work in tandem cover eachother's weaknesses, then this should hardly be a problem unless, again, the strengths are too great for them to be true 'side-grades'.

A weaker move that comes out faster. A stronger move that comes out slower. These are simple variations that many custom moves share. If they were properly tweaked and balanced so the speed and strength properly matched up and offered a different, unique, player-decisive change to the character, that would be infinitely more valuable than anything else the game could have to offer.

If anyone is arguing that customs are a way to make weaker characters strong, then it's unfortunate that these characters are so universally weak. I fail to see how pretending you can't change this, while simultaneously striving to prevent other people from changing this, is in any way a step in the right direction.

----

What if we applied a value to each individual custom move, based on how powerful it is, and disallowed "total scores" that are too high? (I feel like this was suggested before) Deliberately picking ****ty moves to offset the strong ones would prevent certain issues.

For example, if EBT/Trip Villager was forced to use the Lloyd that shoots straight upward, does that help address the issue when he can't properly wall you out after you break his camp? If not, what if he also or alternatively had to use the flower-planting non-pocket custom, which would prevent him from keeping projectiles out from his camp?

EBT/Trip doesn't look so menacing when his camp loses a dimension but retains its core gameplan.

This is an example, of course. We need more brainstormers to start looking at this, if only to pose the 'what ifs'.

 

[LancerStaff]

Great, we now have more characters on roughly even parity with Sheik et al. (I don't know offhand where Mario's generally ranked in default so this may or may not be a huge leap for him. I assume he's somewhere in the top 25% though.)

Also no, I didn't know you were referring to FFA at all. I generally assume all conversations on this subforum relate to 1v1, or maybe doubles, given that it's the competitive discussion subforum. FFA is not a mode I generally concern myself with in the slightest. The most I've done on that score is playing against level 1 AI fighters with my 10 year old cousin. (Spoilers: She's awful at the game.)

Like I just said, we have more Sheiks without any real way for most to combat them. And these characters are much easier to use then Sheik too, so yeah.

Don't know what logic you run on, but it's painfully obvious the game imagined and advertised around FFAs would be balanced for such. For example, were Diddy's buffs after his Uair nerf necessary in 1v1s? Or were nerfing Mac's recovery or DDD's Gordos good for 1v1s? That's a no. That's also why Sheik hasn't been nerfed into the dirt and why Zelda had nerfs to Din's Fire coming from Brawl.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Ah, so we should rebalance the custom move project around FFAs. My mistake.

Does the EBT/Trip tactic work in FFA?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Like I just said, we have more Sheiks without any real way for most to combat them. And these characters are much easier to use then Sheik too, so yeah.

Don't know what logic you run on, but it's painfully obvious the game imagined and advertised around FFAs would be balanced for such. For example, were Diddy's buffs after his Uair nerf necessary in 1v1s? Or were nerfing Mac's recovery or DDD's Gordos good for 1v1s? That's a no. That's also why Sheik hasn't been nerfed into the dirt and why Zelda had nerfs to Din's Fire coming from Brawl.

I also heavily disagreed with nerfing Mac's recovery (although that was also hilarious since it was already the worst in the game, seriously why Sakurai), Dedede's Gordos, and Din's Fire. Diddy's been through a bunch of changes so I've basically given up trying to keep track of them all other than that Hoo-Hah got nerfed into the ground.

Moving on to Sheik and Sheik-tier characters, even though she's (probably) the best in the game my only real beef with her is the utility of needles as a zoning tool because top tier zoning + top tier rushdown on the same character strikes me as a bit much, FFA abilities or lack thereof be damned. Other than that, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with more characters being on her level. Isn't it said that she's remarkably tame for a top tier compared to other Smash games? Unless you think someone could overtake her and become the new #1 in customs, I'm not sure there's a whole lot to worry about.

EDIT:

Ah, so we should rebalance the custom move project around FFAs. My mistake.

Does the EBT/Trip tactic work in FFA?

Stalling tactics in general should fail spectacularly in any format with 2 or more opponents, at least in theory, since keeping out/away from multiple people at once is...I won't say impossible, but much more difficult.