What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Steelballray]

No, not a side event. I am trying to say when people look at Smash 4 customs they should not treat it as the same game as Smash 4 without customs. They should both have their own separate competitive scenes and neither should be treated as a "side event".

I don't know about that. The game is still Smash 4 for the Wii U and having them treated like two separate games sounds ehh. Esp since top tiers defining the meta in no customs are the same as in customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Apparently the idea of running both rulesets simultaneously/side events/whatever is unfeasible due to time constraints, according to the main TOs in my state, so customs lose anyway.

And their aim is to "emulate the majors", they say as we run most of our tournaments 3 stock.

At least I still (probably) have balance patches to look forward to.

 

[Kerenthar]

Customs according to Smashboards this days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FX2vsTCCk

 

[Raijinken]

Customs according to Smashboards this days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FX2vsTCCk

Sheik can handle that no problem.

Seriously though, I miss Brawl Minus and all the insanity it spawned.

 

[T0MMY]

(This was from the CMP thread but it's better discussed in this one; also I notice T0MMY doesn't check to make sure he formatted his posts correctly before posting them).

Actually, I have a really bad computer because I cannot afford to buy a new one after losing everything I owned in a household disaster. I can barely type let alone check to make sure my formatting is 100% perfect when posting to a video game BBS. Why does that matter?

As for the rest of your post: The very notion of dismissing very real reasons that are holding back customs being used for competition is probably the #1 issue for customs as standard. Until this changes being "pro custom" is basically saying you don't need to turn the temperature down on the heating unit while your home burns to the ground.
I enjoy improving on things, though, so I can enjoy being honest and pointing out these issues that need to be addressed.

 

[19_]

I don't know about that. The game is still Smash 4 for the Wii U and having them treated like two separate games sounds ehh. Esp since top tiers defining the meta in no customs are the same as in customs.

While I don't disagree with you about having customs as a side event, I can actually see customs and vanilla being separate games; although I believe the correct way to put it is that customs would be a separate metagame. Seeing that there is a huge gap for and against customs says a lot about how custom change the meta.

The fact the you yourself said you would drop smash 4 if customs were front and center strengthens this argument. If customs are so much of a deal breaker that it change the outcome of what the players continue to play than I can't imagine not calling them at least separate metas.

This is ESPECIALLY true if the overall community keeps mii fighters stuck to 1111 sets in default. Dapuffster has dropped smash 4 because of this rule.

It makes me wonder who else dropped the game due to the customs/mii situation.

 

[Raijinken]

While I don't disagree with you about having customs as a side event, I can actually see customs and vanilla being separate games; although I believe the correct way to put it is that customs would be a separate metagame. Seeing that there is a huge gap for and against customs says a lot about how custom change the meta.

The fact the you yourself said you would drop smash 4 if customs were front and center strengthens this argument. If customs are so much of a deal breaker that it change the outcome of what the players continue to play than I can't imagine not calling them at least separate metas.

This is ESPECIALLY true if the overall community keeps mii fighters stuck to 1111 sets in default. Dapuffster has dropped smash 4 because of this rule.

It makes me wonder who else dropped the game due to the customs/mii situation.

I've stopped spectating most tournaments unless they have notable character specialists competing, and unless the next balance patch does something to relevantly and rather drastically impact the existing tier list, I'll probably drop default Smash entirely. I like the game too much to quit it outright, but seeing as I already scarcely get to face humans due to my location, and the few I do get to meet with don't mind customs (whether or not they use them themselves), it doesn't seem too hard to me to do so. The harder part will be staying involved in a community that I want to be a part of, yet don't agree with. Not much point in contributing to discussions about character interactions when my insights assume things like Crescent Slash and Hyper Monado Arts.

 

[19_]

I've stopped spectating most tournaments unless they have notable character specialists competing, and unless the next balance patch does something to relevantly and rather drastically impact the existing tier list, I'll probably drop default Smash entirely. I like the game too much to quit it outright, but seeing as I already scarcely get to face humans due to my location, and the few I do get to meet with don't mind customs (whether or not they use them themselves), it doesn't seem too hard to me to do so. The harder part will be staying involved in a community that I want to be a part of, yet don't agree with. Not much point in contributing to discussions about character interactions when my insights assume things like Crescent Slash and Hyper Monado Arts.

We need TOs. If the TOs who organize customs don't exist we have to become them. It is as simple as that.

If you believe customs can work than host custom tournaments. I does not mater how small your scene would be, a small start can only be good. If we believe competitive customs are worth than keep pushing against all odds just like how melee was pushed before and how pm is still being pushed right now.

 

[Steelballray]

While I don't disagree with you about having customs as a side event, I can actually see customs and vanilla being separate games; although I believe the correct way to put it is that customs would be a separate metagame. Seeing that there is a huge gap for and against customs says a lot about how custom change the meta.

The fact the you yourself said you would drop smash 4 if customs were front and center strengthens this argument. If customs are so much of a deal breaker that it change the outcome of what the players continue to play than I can't imagine not calling them at least separate metas.

This is ESPECIALLY true if the overall community keeps mii fighters stuck to 1111 sets in default. Dapuffster has dropped smash 4 because of this rule.

It makes me wonder who else dropped the game due to the customs/mii situation.

I don't hate customs because they are different, I hate them because I don't want counterpicking with customs to be a thing.
I know it sounds silly but I just really don't want that to happen to Smash.

Secondary reason is because I think they're mostly trash. I mean, what's up with Rosalina having a Falco's blaster that's better than Fslco's blaster? At least whatever thing that is bad about defaults now will be patched sooner or later (Sheik nerf pls) but customs are a lost cause for the most part.

I mean even if the more annoying ones will be fixed, you be sure that no actions will be taken regarding the characters with weak customs like MK and D3.

These are mainly my reasons, I don't care if the meta is different and I don't think they are. As long as Pika, Rosa, Sheik and ZSS are the kings I can't see how they're different metas.

I agree with whoever said you should organise your own tournament. If I can then I'm sure as hell the lots of you who are way more dedicated than I can as well.

 

[NightKev]

As for the rest of your post: The very notion of dismissing very real reasons that are holding back customs being used for competition is probably the #1 issue for customs as standard. Until this changes being "pro custom" is basically saying you don't need to turn the temperature down on the heating unit while your home burns to the ground.
I enjoy improving on things, though, so I can enjoy being honest and pointing out these issues that need to be addressed.

I said your reasons were invalid (with my own reasoning as to why) and your response is "no u"? You're the one dismissing arguments without even pretending to back up your statement right now.

 

[Raijinken]

We need TOs. If the TOs who organize customs don't exist we have to become them. It is as simple as that.

If you believe customs can work than host custom tournaments. I does not mater how small your scene would be, a small start can only be good. If we believe competitive customs are worth than keep pushing against all odds just like how melee was pushed before and how pm is still being pushed right now.

I'm looking for the opportunity to do so, but to the best of my knowledge, only three people in the town I live in even play Smash. Then again, I'm new to the area, so building that sort of network will take time. The rest of my state isn't helping, though, with the only customs-on tournament in the state being about four hours away from me.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I'm looking for the opportunity to do so, but to the best of my knowledge, only three people in the town I live in even play Smash. Then again, I'm new to the area, so building that sort of network will take time. The rest of my state isn't helping, though, with the only customs-on tournament in the state being about four hours away from me.

Four hours? Holy wow, that is just begging to eat up your gas...

Unfortunately West Michigan, which we used to be known for being the go-to part of the state for a customs meta is no longer a thing with us after an almost unanimous outcry for them to stop being legal. East side, which gets huge attendance and is clearly stronger than our side in every way, was less interested in coming out to our events if they were legal, so we figured it would be best to cater more to what our players wanted considering only one or two really even cared for them, not to mention to keep up with what the rest of the world is running for majors.

Though I like the idea of seeing people step up and using customs more for those who strongly enjoy them, I would also strongly recommend not running default Smash 4 and customs Smash 4 tournaments simultaneously. I like the idea of swapping the two out weekly, but I could also see that affecting attendance and alleviating those who like customs but don't want to play without them and vice versa.

Majors are dropping customs like flies, but is there any big attempts to bring them back anywhere notable? Or maybe video exposure through Youtube?

 

[Raijinken]

Four hours? Holy wow, that is just begging to eat up your gas...

Unfortunately West Michigan, which we used to be known for being the go-to part of the state for a customs meta is no longer a thing with us after an almost unanimous outcry for them to stop being legal. East side, which gets huge attendance and is clearly stronger than our side in every way, was less interested in coming out to our events if they were legal, so we figured it would be best to cater more to what our players wanted considering only one or two really even cared for them, not to mention to keep up with what the rest of the world is running for majors.

Though I like the idea of seeing people step up and using customs more for those who strongly enjoy them, I would also strongly recommend not running default Smash 4 and customs Smash 4 tournaments simultaneously. I like the idea of swapping the two out weekly, but I could also see that affecting attendance and alleviating those who like customs but don't want to play without them and vice versa.

Majors are dropping customs like flies, but is there any big attempts to bring them back anywhere notable? Or maybe video exposure through Youtube?

Most people who like them either (apparently) don't have the resources to run their own events, or are indifferent enough to just play default. Most people who don't like them don't have to or want to care. It's hard to gain ground when nobody really pays attention anyway.

 

[wizrad]

Customs should never be a side event. That's demeaning. It would be like downgrading doubles to a side event.

 

[Raijinken]

Customs should never be a side event. That's demeaning. It would be like downgrading doubles to a side event.

A lot of people, I recently learned, DO refer to Doubles as a side event. No wonder people hardly play it in comparison to singles.

Either way, I'm sure all the Anti-Customs people are just snickering to themselves "Haha we got them to stop yelling at us by feigning interest in running customs alongside or as a side event. Not like we ever actually will!"

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm on the fence.

On one hand, I loved/wanted customs to be a part of the current meta... But post-evo, I can see what Sakurai was doing when he banned them in online play.

They're just not balanced the same way regular specials are. :/

So I'm against them.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm on the fence.

On one hand, I loved/wanted customs to be a part of the current meta... But post-evo, I can see what Sakurai was doing when he banned them in online play.

They're just not balanced the same way regular specials are. :/

So I'm against them.

If only regular specials were balanced... at all.

 

[Pazzo.]

If only regular specials were balanced... at all.

At least there's no special that kills off Diddy Kong's bananas.

 

[T0MMY]

I said your reasons were invalid (with my own reasoning as to why) and your response is "no u"? You're the one dismissing arguments without even pretending to back up your statement right now.

Just making a proclamation that my reasons are invalid without demonstrating how is missing the mark - logic doesn't work that way: any claim must be backed up.
Please demonstrate your claim of invalidity - are my premises false or are they true but leading to a false conclusion?

Also, please do not use quotation marks unless you are... you know, actually quoting someone. Otherwise it could be seen as being dishonest trying to create an illusion that the person you are communicating with is saying something wrong when that does not reflect reality.

Again, I will simply state that dismissing very real issues that people have with customs like they are non-issues will never resolve anything between the two sides. I am not saying you have to agree with these opinions, but I will stress how important it is to recognize these issues do exist and that just waiting for the other side to magically start agreeing with every opinion you have may not be the best strategy.

I look to resolve issues and find a happy middleground.

 

[Raijinken]

At least there's no special that kills off Diddy Kong's bananas.

Correct. That's entirely an innate property of his character, and even in the 1.0 days was seen as sufficiently fair to not warrant a ban.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

At least there's no special that kills off Diddy Kong's bananas.

Banana --> Glide Toss Rocket Barrel Attack

 

[Raijinken]

Banana --> Glide Toss Rocket Barrel Attack

Two words.

Hoo.

Hah.

 

[Omegascizor456]

Yeah. A customs side event sounds about right.

maybe this is just me but why would i compete in cutsoms with money... like someone could just go custom villlager or wind kong and win when they shouldnt...

 

[Steelballray]

maybe this is just me but why would i compete in cutsoms with money... like someone could just go custom villlager or wind kong and win when they shouldnt...

I wouldn't know about that, but as the other customs supporters say these tactics are easily countered or something. I really don't know.

Btw, I still think customs would do better as a side event at least for now, I mean, you can grow from there into creating your larger scene once you prove to enough people that customs arent entirely bad or whatever. Don't go looking into step two before step one is complete, which should be proving that customs arent all jank and broken.

 

[Raijinken]

maybe this is just me but why would i compete in cutsoms with money... like someone could just go custom villlager or wind kong and win when they shouldnt...

Unless you're actually a good DK, I wouldn't be any more afraid of your Wind Kong than of any other character. And if you go custom Villager, then it's great that I know I can just go Ganondorf and spike you for a kill at 30 in exchange for 5% from a balloon.

You COULD be better than me at those characters against my choices against them. But in that case, customs probably won't sway the game. I'm unconvinced any experienced customs player will lose a match due to any single special move. Mostly because it hasn't happened to me yet against my friends who try that very thing.

 

[Ansou]

maybe this is just me but why would i compete in cutsoms with money... like someone could just go custom villlager or wind kong and win when they shouldnt...

If you have just practised a little bit against those moves and know how to handle them, they really shouldn't be getting free wins. If you know how to handle them and still lose, that's probably because your opponent is more skilled than you which is a good thing.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you have just practised a little bit against those moves and know how to handle them, they really shouldn't be getting free wins. If you know how to handle them and still lose, that's probably because your opponent is more skilled than you which is a good thing.

Thing is that people don't want to practice them, and they most certainly don't want to play in an event they know they'll lose in. They don't like customs because they don't practice them, and they don't practice customs because they don't like them.

 

[Raijinken]

Thing is that people don't want to practice them, and they most certainly don't want to play in an event they know they'll lose in. They don't like customs because they don't practice them, and they don't practice customs because they don't like them.

This is all true and great, but still irrelevant to ruleset development. Because to the exact same reasons and results, nobody I know in person plays as or plays well against Sheik.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is all true and great, but still irrelevant to ruleset development. Because to the exact same reasons and results, nobody I know in person plays as or plays well against Sheik.

People don't play in tournaments with "unfun" rulesets though. Rulesets must cater to the largest audience possible to rope in players. As long as people don't like customs, they won't like customs. Making them think otherwise is impossible.

 

[Raijinken]

People don't play in tournaments with "unfun" rulesets though. Rulesets must cater to the largest audience possible to rope in players. As long as people don't like customs, they won't like customs. Making them think otherwise is impossible.

And that's why I don't compete in default Smash any more.

And personal experience suggests that it is quite possible to make anti-customs players into pro-customs players. Unless they're exceedingly stubborn to begin with.

 

[LancerStaff]

And that's why I don't compete in default Smash any more.

And personal experience suggests that it is quite possible to make anti-customs players into pro-customs players. Unless they're exceedingly stubborn to begin with.

Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

And from my observations they quickly revert once they realize attendance is dropping or if they want attention from a nearby community that doesn't use customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

And from my observations they quickly revert once they realize attendance is dropping or if they want attention from a nearby community that doesn't use customs.

TOs are not all of players. Nobody I've converted from anti- to pro-customs in person has reverted, because they find the game more interesting, and more fun, than without. I know some who play against but not using, of course. But I've yet to have a friend who goes from being pro-customs to anti-customs for any reason.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Having played with them with a friend of mine, it kind of stopped being fun after a while outside of our deliberately bad Sheik sets.

I could make "logical" arguments but I think it boils down to player preference and from what I can tell, the preference sways to default. Even though Dr. Mario gets better none of the standardized custom sets use Fast Pill and default Nado + Default Sheet anyways =(. WInd sheet is good for specific MUs but das it.

I just think that, at this point, it's been attempted multiple times and trying to force it really hard is just unwise. The majority runs default (including myself at this point) and whether this is good or bad to you depends, but I don't think Customs is going to be a permanent thing as far as main events go. If you drop default Smash then so be it, but while certain characters change the game is still Smash 4 so maybe the problem runs deeper than it being a matter of customs on vs. customs off.

Also Mario has stupid customs that make him really unfun to fight when played optimally but no big Mario player ever showed it off. They're pretty degenerate in all honesty (Mario = big grimebag with Customs)

 

[LancerStaff]

TOs are not all of players. Nobody I've converted from anti- to pro-customs in person has reverted, because they find the game more interesting, and more fun, than without. I know some who play against but not using, of course. But I've yet to have a friend who goes from being pro-customs to anti-customs for any reason.

I've seen plenty of people lose faith in customs. It happens, and it happens often.

And I'm inclined to agree with TTTTTsd. If you don't like default Smash then the problem is likely still there with customs. Unless it's specific character viability, to which I have to say that your character in specific doesn't deserve to be viable more then anybody else.

 

[Raijinken]

I've seen plenty of people lose faith in customs. It happens, and it happens often.

And I'm inclined to agree with TTTTTsd. If you don't like default Smash then the problem is likely still there with customs. Unless it's specific character viability, to which I have to say that your character in specific doesn't deserve to be viable more then anybody else.

It's not character viability, it's perceived metagame stagnation versus variety of valid choice, and how those are reduced and increased respectively across the majority of the cast. Marth doesn't deserve viability any more than anyone else's, and fortunately, more than just Marth benefit from customs, and I've yet to see a character become un-viable in a customs environment, a detail you seem thoroughly entrenched against despite all arguments.

Both of my views there, I seem to recall you vocally disagreeing with outright. Fortunately patches help with both of these, but as someone whose geographic situation means I watch a lot more than I play, I get really tired of watching the same characters do the same things.

Customs directly mix that up for me, and consequently, I can (as mentioned quite recently) only really enjoy watching when there are people like DKWill or JohnNumbers running unusual characters, or when there are customs switching things up.

Either way, it's clear that our circumstances are entirely opposite, as are our stances. You enjoy your meta, I'll enjoy mine. I'm not forcing you to play mine, after all.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's not character viability, it's perceived metagame stagnation versus variety of valid choice, and how those are reduced and increased respectively across the majority of the cast. Marth doesn't deserve viability any more than anyone else's, and fortunately, more than just Marth benefit from customs, and I've yet to see a character become un-viable in a customs environment, a detail you seem thoroughly entrenched against despite all arguments.

Both of my views there, I seem to recall you vocally disagreeing with outright. Fortunately patches help with both of these, but as someone whose geographic situation means I watch a lot more than I play, I get really tired of watching the same characters do the same things.

Customs directly mix that up for me, and consequently, I can (as mentioned quite recently) only really enjoy watching when there are people like DKWill or JohnNumbers running unusual characters, or when there are customs switching things up.

Either way, it's clear that our circumstances are entirely opposite, as are our stances. You enjoy your meta, I'll enjoy mine. I'm not forcing you to play mine, after all.

I don't see much more character variety. I see different characters, but definitely not more variety. Thing is that the definition of viable changes with customs on... There are more gatekeepers stopping other characters cold. The overall power level is higher, obviously. Should people actually take customs seriously we'll find our next Diddy/Luigi and variety will truly nosedive like with every fighting game there ever was.

I just don't understand how people can think the variety will last.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't see much more character variety. I see different characters, but definitely not more variety. Thing is that the definition of viable changes with customs on... There are more gatekeepers stopping other characters cold. The overall power level is higher, obviously. Should people actually take customs seriously we'll find our next Diddy/Luigi and variety will truly nosedive like with every fighting game there ever was.

I just don't understand how people can think the variety will last.

With how even unpatchable games like Melee have managed to find new strategies and characters that took years to "fully" explore (see Armada finally returning to Fox after years of Peach dominance), I fail to see how tripling the number of options in a fifth of 51/55ths of the current roster's movesets will do anything to hinder variety. Obviously once we reach the year 20XX (or 30XX or whatever), that variety will stop. But until then, adding more choices will only increase the potential variety and its longevity.

 

[LancerStaff]

With how even unpatchable games like Melee have managed to find new strategies and characters that took years to "fully" explore (see Armada finally returning to Fox after years of Peach dominance), I fail to see how tripling the number of options in a fifth of 51/55ths of the current roster's movesets will do anything to hinder variety. Obviously once we reach the year 20XX (or 30XX or whatever), that variety will stop. But until then, adding more choices will only increase the potential variety and its longevity.

I'm not all that familiar with Melee, but I don't recall Peach ever being dominant. Shiek I know was, but if Melee were released this day and age it wouldn't take long for Fox to come out on top.

Only took about half a year to get a relative understanding of Smash 4. With customs being pretty topical it wouldn't take much dedicated work to figure it out.

 

[Owlflame]

I would say that we're currently in a state where they are not being used that much, but discussions are going on. I'm trying to convince the rest of Sweden to allow them, but most people here are filled with bias but no sound reason. Like some people are literally arguing that "I'm a casual player and I feel like it's too much if I have to learn customs"... The arguments I'm getting are mostly that it's up to preference if they should be allowed or not and that it's not an objective matter. And the TO of BEAST only cares about majority opinion.

Anyway, customs are not completely dead. We use them here in Stockholm, but only on half of our tourneys because players want to know the customs off meta as well to prepare for the major tourneys that don't allow them...

I'm just gonna roll with whatever competitive players are doing.

 

[19_]

I don't hate customs because they are different, I hate them because I don't want counterpicking with customs to be a thing.
I know it sounds silly but I just really don't want that to happen to Smash.

Secondary reason is because I think they're mostly trash. I mean, what's up with Rosalina having a Falco's blaster that's better than Fslco's blaster? At least whatever thing that is bad about defaults now will be patched sooner or later (Sheik nerf pls) but customs are a lost cause for the most part.

I mean even if the more annoying ones will be fixed, you be sure that no actions will be taken regarding the characters with weak customs like MK and D3.

First point I understand, counter picking should have stuck to picking the character and the set at the same time. I kinda think counterpicking sets KILLS certain characters like the DLC guys and little mac (windboxes). EVO did a lot of things wrong and I believe that was one of them.

Second point is an intresting and I guess your not completely wrong. A lot of the meta is undiscovered in customs so I feel like many of the moves are underrated (People on the shulk boards recently found dash counter is useful against projectiles). Some characters will surely get the short end of the stick when it comes to viable customs though I will have to agree with you there (Again the DLC characters).

I just guess my thought process is that customs could make characters more solo viable as counterpicking customs instead of characters would be a possible strategy. You could focus on using other moves rather using a different character to handle a matchup.

This is wishfull thinking though, as top tier characters got more options too so it is most likely they will still be the best. As you said many characters don't get better moves and most likely wont get buffs for them as it seems. DLC characters will most likely get never them at all which sucks, was really disappointed when I saw mewtwo's lack of customs. It really makes it seem that customs were just a silly unlockable reward you could get for playing the ingame modes which is shame because I really think having more than one set of specials for a fighter brings potential to an otherwise more shallow game. All I can hope for is that Sakarai makes custom moves less of a reward and more of a feature in the next game.

That being said I still support customs. I'd actually like to see gameplay of this disgusting custom mario in tournament. At least as a side event this meta could thrive if TOs could give it a chance AND if there was a better way to unlock them (Wii u save injection when).