WaveDashing In SSBB

[Inferno_blaze]

it wasn't an argument, it's true....also, you infer from the "intelligent" people that it is a glitch? Those big words really get ya huh?

Wow. I have to say it just amazes me how unobservent you are! I have already stated MANY TIMES that I don't give a **** about whether it's in the next game and you're reffering to me as arguing by saying its a glitch? Wavedashing IS a glitch as I have already said, as another example, in HL2 you can fly, you're not meant to but you can through a glitch than allows you to repeatedly jump into an object you are holding and then jump again before it hits the floor, taking you upwards. This (just like WD) is created due to the game's physics. This does not mean however that it isn't a glitch. It is. Now try to get that into your head before you post a rash comeback without (yet again) actually reading the post correctly.

Also on not eabout what you said. The way you posted saying about well I don't know if anyone else has noticed but WD doesn't win matches for you it does 0% dmg IS arguing a point and a lame one at that, using WD can very often win you a match due to the fact that it is an evasive manouver that can be used in an offensive way, i.e. runningforwards, WD back out of the way of an attack before WD forwards again into a smash, this is utilising WD offensively. Now if you actually bothered to read this then thank you, because I'm not sure I can be bothered to reply back again if you just post another post like your last.

Also this should hopefully informed whoever it was that was saying that the game's physics allow it so it isn't a glitch, just wanted to let you know that because the engine allows you to do it doesn't mean it's intentionally in there, if you are doing something that requires something OUT of the game then that is hacking, which is probably what you were thinking of please correct me anyone if I got something wrong.

 

[Khanczar]

Unless nintendo has not been paying attention to the current Super Smash bros community AT ALL, wding will stay, because they know how important it is to some character's success.

My idea is this; since they know about wavedashing's popularity, (it was in nintendo power...) I believe they will actually make it an official move, like have it in the instructions. And I don't think it will look so glitchy either. It won't look like marth having a spasm or shiek ovulating like it now does. It will actually look sorta kewl, like instead of crouching when you do a real WD, he character's arms will go backward when they forward WD, (kinda like fox running) and forward when they do a back WD. So when you wavedance their arms will go back and forth like a doll lol

Im prolly wrong. They might leave it in with no changes, but I would like to see a little bit kewler WD.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Sorry but this comes back to the point that Brawl will be a new game with different balance so it doesn't matter how vital WD is for some char's success at the moment. I think it will stay, only changed like z-cancel was changed into l-cancel

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Wow. I have to say it just amazes me how unobservent you are! I have already stated MANY TIMES that I don't give a **** about whether it's in the next game and you're reffering to me as arguing by saying its a glitch? Wavedashing IS a glitch as I have already said, as another example, in HL2 you can fly, you're not meant to but you can through a glitch than allows you to repeatedly jump into an object you are holding and then jump again before it hits the floor, taking you upwards. This (just like WD) is created due to the game's physics. This does not mean however that it isn't a glitch. It is. Now try to get that into your head before you post a rash comeback without (yet again) actually reading the post correctly.

Your example from HL2 is very much a glitch, as the developers (I'm assuming, I've never played the game) didn't want you to be able to jump on held objects. The "flying" is possible because of being able to jump, being able to hold an object, and being able to jump on held objects. The first two were intended and not glitches, but the third part is a glitch. Therefore, since one of the parts that makes "flying" possible is a glitch, "flying" itself is a glitch.

How does this relate to wavedashing? Well, wavedashing is possible because of:
1) You can jump.
2) There are several things you can do while in the air that cannot be done on the ground. At any point during the "in air" animation, anything that can be done while in the air can be done.
3) The jumping animation puts you in this "in air" state between 4 and 9 frames after you press the button. At the very start of this, human eyes cannot detect that you have left the ground yet.
4) Every character has different traction. When you try to turn around while running, it takes Luigi forever, but Link will do so immediately.
5) You can air dodge.
6) When your air dodge is cut short by the ground, a nearly lagless landing animation results. This animation was specifically programmed for this occurance, as well as for certain upBs done into the ground.
7) All momentum has 2 directions: horizontal (left/right) and vertical (up/down). When you land, your downward momentum determines whether or not you bounce, and how high if you do. Your horizontal momentum determines your starting velocity for movement along the ground; it decreases at a certain rate, but you will slide some if you have any horizontal momentum (even if it is some unnoticable amount).
8) Air dodging in a direction supplies momentum.

Nothing I've listed above is a glitch. Everything there was intended by the programmers (unlike the "jumping on an item" in your HL2 example). Wavedashing is possible by using everything above together. Since every part of wavedashing is not a glitch, wavedashing itself cannot be a glitch. Or, to make things easier:

(Any number of non-glitches) + glitch = glitch
Non-glitch + non-glitch + non-glitch = non-glitch

Wavedashing is obviously the latter, so it is therefore not a glitch.

EDIT: Oh, and I could very well be wrong here. If you can find any thing about wavedashing that, if removed, would render wavedashing impossible, that you can prove to be a glitch, then obviously I'll agree with you. A move's only as valid as the sum of its parts, obviously.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Being able to jump on held objects was allowed, you could grab something you were floating in water on, it's just what someone discovered, the reason WD is a glitch is because essentially you aren't air dodging when you do it, it's a glitch because rather than air dodgin into the ground and landing you slide in whichever direction you wanted your character to move, the idea is that you are air dodging but in reality you aren't. It's hard to calssify but overall i'd consider it's a glitch (but a useful one that doesn't ruin the game)

IF the devs wanted to remove it (not saying I want it removed, just if they wanted to) then the simplest solution would be to increase the time before you are allowed to air dodge when you jump (however that would still leave wavelanding)

Also you REALLY should play HL2, best FPS the PC has to offer.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Being able to jump on held objects was allowed, you could grab something you were floating in water on, it's just what someone discovered, the reason WD is a glitch is because essentially you aren't air dodging when you do it, it's a glitch because rather than air dodgin into the ground and landing you slide in whichever direction you wanted your character to move, the idea is that you are air dodging but in reality you aren't. It's hard to calssify but overall i'd consider it's a glitch (but a useful one that doesn't ruin the game)

IF the devs wanted to remove it (not saying I want it removed, just if they wanted to) then the simplest solution would be to increase the time before you are allowed to air dodge when you jump (however that would still leave wavelanding)

Also you REALLY should play HL2, best FPS the PC has to offer.

I'd like to play HL2, but my computer can't handle it. When I finally get around to building my own, however, I shall do so immediately.

Two examples: Shffling aerials is the combination of short hopping, fast falling, and l-cancelling, all things that were intentional, and is therefore not a glitch. The black hole glitch, on the other hand, is based on several non-glitches (Peach's turnips bounce off each other, two projectiles create tiny green particle effects when they collide, Fox and Falco can reflect projectiles), but also several glitches (infinite Super Scope, "locking" turnips in place using an excess of particle effects), and is therefore a glitch itself.

It was planned for you to have three main "stances" if you will: standing, running, and falling/jumping/being in the air. Though animations may differ based on what you are doing, at any point within those "stances", you always have the same options. It would be silly to have conditions on them that only serves to remove something beneficial. Not being able to air dodge until you have sufficiently left the ground would mean a jumping animation that allows you to not do anything for a certain amount of time, and this would greatly hurt the game. In Melee, you can do an aerial attack out of a jump as quickly as your fingers will let you, why would anyone want to remove that?

Also, while WDing, you actually are jumping and airdodging when you do it. However, with things happening at only 60 fps (real life happens at ∞ fps), you can't see either, you only see the landing animation. Again, the only way something that's based on multiple things can be a glitch is if it involves something that is unintended. Everything that allows wavedashing was intended, there was just no way to forsee how useful it could be to string them all together. It's one of the great things about Smash: all combos were made up from scratch. The developers gave us a certain number of moves, and we were allowed to find uses for them. Did they assume that we would make Popo dthrow as Nana shffl'd fair, knocking the opponent into Popo's dsmash? Probably not, but that doesn't make doing so a glitch, and the same holds true for WDing. You can no longer consider it a glitch, so please stop doing so. You are allowed your own opinions, you are not allowed your own facts.

 

[G-Sword]

yeah, work on your English.

I think it would have a tremendous impact on the pro community if Wavedashing, or even L canceling or stuff like the fox trot and shuffling were to be removed. The basic fundamentals of attacking and defending would no longer exist, and there would be no way to fight without using brute power, items, and luck. With that said, I'd be much happier to see all advanced techniuqes return.

oh my gosh, the game is going to b different than melee. so all your fundamentals of attacking and defending are going to b changed. and of course u still would b able fight without items and luck. the first ssb required skills and u didn't have WDing. L-canceling is not going to b removed from the game it was there in the first one it will come again. most of u guys r so caught up with WDing that u guys can't live without it. most of u r saying it would hurt the game if it was removed. u guys dont really give a s*** about the game, only thing u guys care about is the WD. u guys make it like u can't live without it. just for that i hope it is removed. some of u r saying u wouldn't ssb if WD was removed, if u guys truly liked playing ssb than u would still play even if it was removed

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I was just going to say it doesn't require one thing unintended if the whole thing rounds up as an unintended move (fun arguements :D) What i was saying about the airdodgin is that i know you press th ebuttons to do it but your cahracter doesn't techinichally do it, it was a lame example anyway, I still define it as a glitch because it wasn't intentional (although if I could actually be bothered to look up the litteral def of glitch it'd prob be something to do with a muckup in the game code rather than what we're talking about)

Also, I for one will play brawl no matter what, the characters are awesome and I've always loved the smash series, it's my most anticipated game for the wii

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I was just going to say it doesn't require one thing unintended if the whole thing rounds up as an unintended move (fun arguements :D) What i was saying about the airdodgin is that i know you press th ebuttons to do it but your cahracter doesn't techinichally do it, it was a lame example anyway, I still define it as a glitch because it wasn't intentional (although if I could actually be bothered to look up the litteral def of glitch it'd prob be something to do with a muckup in the game code rather than what we're talking about)

Yeah, all we're really doing is messing around with definitions of glitch at this point. I view it as, the game is doing exactly what the programmers would expect it to in this situation, so even though they never expected the situation to occur as often as it does, it's still not a glitch.

Also, I for one will play brawl no matter what, the characters are awesome and I've always loved the smash series, it's my most anticipated game for the wii

No arguments there

 

[AeryEcho]

I suck at melee, and basically all the smash games, I don't even live up to the n00bs here. I can't do a wavedash, but it is a great feature, even if unintentional. It added a lot of depth, along with the other glitches, and created a whole new level of players; without it and the other glitches, advanced players wouldn't be as distinguishable from the intermediate players, and there will be much less for the beginners to strive for, to practice for, and it would remove an entire layer of gameplay like that.
I suck at smashing, but I am good at rambling.

 

[Flush 5]

Brawl is supposed to be a different game. the speed will change and we've heard there will be aerial combat innovation. Chances are there will be new "gliches" to take advantage of. But i think that since it is going to be a completely new experience with new characters and levels and altered gameplay, then there shouldn't be too many things that carry over from Melee. If you want to WD, then play Melee again. Tournaments can be played with Melee, the new old school; and with Brawl. I'm guessing that Brawl won't be as big a step from Melee as Melee was from the original smash, therefore you'll play the games interchangably. Wii is backwards compatible and they both use the GC controller so the only "hassle" is switching the discs. I know that my friends and I will definitely be playing both. No matter what anyone says, you always go back to Super Smash Bros. Melee, it starts calling you after staying away for too long.

 

[y2kbakura]

im sorry but the wavedash has to stay,
if your a casual gamer that feels that it's cheap
dont use it. It's like VC in Soul Caliber 3
I dont use when i play casual but when i play in a
tournament i have to because, it's the only way to stay at
a competitive level.
Simple your casual, dont WD
if your pro and you want to win WD
Let's keep WD for the sake of the tournament scene

 

[Flush 5]

It doesn't have to stay. I can do it, i do use it, i don't believe it's cheap. What i'm saying is that the tournament scene will change with the game. Yes, in Melee you can't compete if you don't wavedash, but if there isn't any WD in Brawl then being able to compete will rely on different skill and strategy. It doesn't mean that we won't find new ways to take advantage of the game's physics, my guess is there will be similar types of glitches discovered in the new game that one will have to use to be able to compete, it doesn't have to be wavedashing.

 

[Meta_Geno_Knight]

They should take away wavedashing cause I think it is cheap, and stupid.

 

[Sensai]

They should take away wavedashing cause I think it is cheap, and stupid.

They should take it away just because you think it's dumb.

Hm.

That doesn't sound like a logical point.

Yes, Brawl'll be different, just like 64 and Melee were different.

But, note that they both have L Cancelling....

...so, what makes WDing so different?

 

[Shaolin-Ninja]

Even if they take WD away, I hope l-cancel stays, or else- I'll be a very sad player...

 

[TGD]

Even if they take WD away, I hope l-cancel stays, or else- I'll be a very sad player...

Same here, competitive play just wouldn't be the same.

 

[the_suicide_fox]

L-Canceling will stay. It was in the first SSB, it was in Melee, it will be in Brawl so stop worrying.

WD will most likely stay. They only difference I see is they may make it so when you land while doing an air dodge you landing animation will be different (maybe it will look like a tech roll) and they will make it a viable technique like how they changed Z-canceling no lag to L-Canceling half lag. It will be in there, just won't be the same as in Melee. Also beam canceling, jump canceling, and other techniques from the first game remained. I think the only glitches they would remove are game breaking glitches (such as IC Freeze glitch). WDing is not game breaking, if anything it's game enhancing. Look at the Mortal Kombat series. People were finding ways to juggle and do all these combos in MK2 then when MK3 came out now combos are an actual part of the game. Plus like I have said before Nintendo tends to turn glitches from old games into new techniques in later games. I doubt they would change WD anymore than just a new animation with a little bit more lag perhaps and maybe making it easier to do. They will also likely make rolling better in Brawl to keep it from being replaced by WDing.

 

[Flush 5]

competitve play would not be any less competitive than it is now. You're talking about speed and combos. And for all we know, the comboing could take a turn for the best with the new aerial combat system implied. If they change everything about melee, it wouldn't necessarily be bad because A) we could always play melee when we want that gameplay B) I would rather be surprised with something new and unexpected than melee 1.5. No matter what though, I doubt the game will be any less competitive.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

does your character do something youre not telling them do? does some engine variable not work when you WD? does something the game FAIL to do what its suposed to during WD?


In 3d fighters.. you do crouch dash motion, they gave you the option of canceling the dash with B or N, then you can do it again.. since your doing nothing. is that a glitch?


something wrong would have to happen. obviously the variable of "coming into contact with ground while air dodging" came up, their idea was to make it so you land normally. They couldve made you roll, or stay "stuck" on the ground in your air dodge animation, or land with more recovery, but they decided on you landing normally.

and no its not an high level "Strat" thats why i said "Strat/tech", its a movement technique wich is effecient and useful.

You can be hit while WDing, you have lag before and after , not to mention the actual inputs. the movement is accomplished due to the sliding physics, you can attack while sliding because you recover before the characters weight slows you down.

ok , so now i have something easily compariable to "Dashing" in other games. whats the effin problem?

 

[Sensai]

Same here, competitive play just wouldn't be the same.

It also wouldn't be the same if WDing was taken out.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

sorry, but WD doesn't have lag and there is already dashing in the game, ever heard of tapping the control stick in a direction? Thought that was kinda a silly post. Also, WD isn't landing normally, I don't know if it's just me but I don't slide forwarda few feet whenever I land from a jump, not being anti WD just correcting mistakes.

 

[Doctor X]

sorry, but WD doesn't have lag and there is already dashing in the game, ever heard of tapping the control stick in a direction? Thought that was kinda a silly post.

It does have lag, not after, but right at the beginning. You can't do anything but airdodge during the jumping animation. You can't actually follow up with anything until your character makes contact with the ground. It's not a whole lot of lag, but it's there.

Also, when he was referring to "dashing," he wasn't just talking about running. He was referring to movement when used as a technique in other fighters. Usually you have some way of evading enemy attacks by stepping away from them, crouching under them, or sidestepping around them in 3D fighters. However, you're still left with a multitude of counterattack options while doing so. Without the wavedash, SSBM has nothing like this. Simple dashing (unless you dash dance) has a bit of startup time that makes it difficult to apply as an evasive tactic, and unless you cancel the dash with down (compete with it's own bit of lag), you generally only have one mode of attack available to you-- the dash attack. Roll dodges and standing dodges are often just as slow as the moves they evade, thus making them useless for counterattacking purposes.

That's why having the wavedash has added depth to this game. It's a little more difficult to do and often times less reliable than the rolling dodge. There's no period of invincibility, and with most characters you don't get as much distance. In return, however, you can follow the wavedash up with just about any move in your character's repitoire. As Drunken Dragon pointed out, this is comperable to dashing in other fighters. It is in no way game-breaking.

Also, WD isn't landing normally, I don't know if it's just me but I don't slide forwarda few feet whenever I land from a jump, not being anti WD just correcting mistakes.

The momentum that causes you to slide comes from the airdodge, not the landing itself. You're still landing normally. You just have a whole lot of momentum when you land.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I don't know if it's just me but I don't slide forwarda few feet whenever I land from a jump, not being anti WD just correcting mistakes.

Do you stop instantly when you land while having momentum in a direction other than down/up? No. Unless you're some sort of weirdo. So obviously, Nintendo had to make a way for our guys to lose their momentum without looking like an idiot or impeding gameplay. So their option of "stumble like an idiot" was crossed off, and I guess they just didn't want to opt for "roll", so we have "slide along the ground". Pretty simple, really.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

umI'd just fall over, due to friction, unless you fall over you pretty much stop instantly.

 

[Marth 616]

It also wouldn't be the same if WDing was taken out.

Very true...I hope WDing remains in Brawl.

 

[Flush 5]

It also wouldn't be the same if WDing was taken out.

That's not the point though! We don't want the same game, we want a new game, not just with new characters and levels and all around "stuff." Don't you want it to play differently? The same Smash team that is working on Brawl worked on the original and Melee, they won't screw it up. Changes that are made to the gameplay should be welcomed so we don't have a cloned Melee. I love the WD, I am not against it; I think Brawl should be different though, I want to be surprised with new gameplay.

Remember discovering the WD? and basically all of the advanced techniques? It was cool, it was a new depth to this game that you never knew possible. Well if they just leave the same gameplay in Brawl, you won't get that experience. If they change it, then there will be all new techniques and skills to learn, think of Brawl as an entirely new universe to explore every inch of-as has already been done with Melee.

In terms of competition, that's good for most people, it starts almost everyone off on an even playing field. Which means there will be new champions. Ken, Isai, Azen... you know the rest, will always be kings of Melee, but Brawl will hopefully allow new players to rise to the top.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Yeah I'd like a new game I have to learn to play all over again, not ridiculously different though.

 

[Flush 5]

well yeah of course. I mean the same old smash bros. style. and I definitely think they can implement a new way to play and still have that certain something that makes smash awesome. and it's not just a move like wave dashing or L-canceling.

 

[meteorstorm42]

That's not the point though! We don't want the same game, we want a new game, not just with new characters and levels and all around "stuff." Don't you want it to play differently? The same Smash team that is working on Brawl worked on the original and Melee, they won't screw it up. Changes that are made to the gameplay should be welcomed so we don't have a cloned Melee. I love the WD, I am not against it; I think Brawl should be different though, I want to be surprised with new gameplay.

I completely agree.
There should be enough of a gameplay difference to make it feel new.


Anyway, what if they included a backstep-type move (like in other fighters) to replace the wavedash? Noobs would be able to do it but only pros could work it in correctly.
I think that would please everyone. (Maybe...)

What do you think?

...though I'm not sure what button(s) it would be assigned to. Maybe the R button?

 

[Flush 5]

well talking about new things like that, i think a whole new aspect would be added if you could "slow fall" by pressing up on the control stick. It'd be a whole new trick to add to the list of mind game techniques. and like your backstep idea, noobs could do it, but it would take practice to use it well just like Melee's advanced techniques.

 

[ciRius j0Qr]

Dont you think that there are some Advanced tchnics that are to be banned in one way or another
Falco maoves are getting way advanced
Someday one falco will grow invincible

 

[Mark_zerO_onE]

WD id pretty cool. I can WD, but not perfectly, and I don't use it when playing, but wish I could use it with the level of skill tournament pros use it. I think WD should be kept in, jusy for the sake of how much skill a person could be capable of in the game; WD and L cancelling in SSBM is what set it apart from other fighting games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter, those are just button mashers; SSB on the other hand, is a true fighting game that requires skill if you want to survive in tournaments or even just for braging rights. Thats why I feel that they should keep WD and any other advanced technique in SSBB.

 

[Flush 5]

Dont you think that there are some Advanced tchnics that are to be banned in one way or another

Well yeah, that's what we're talking about. I'm saying that WDing, and perhaps other advanced techniques, should not be brought over to SSBB. So we can have new gameplay and new advanced techs to learn. IMO more than half the fun of SSBM was learning that stuff and playing people better than you and learning more. If the same techniques were in Brawl, then there wouldn't be anything new to discover and that= lame.

 

[Flush 5]

WD id pretty cool. I can WD, but not perfectly, and I don't use it when playing, but wish I could use it with the level of skill tournament pros use it. I think WD should be kept in, jusy for the sake of how much skill a person could be capable of in the game; WD and L cancelling in SSBM is what set it apart from other fighting games like MK and SF, those are just button mashers; SSB on the other hand, is a true fighting game that requires skill if you want to survive in tournaments or even just for braging rights. Thats why I feel that they should keep WD and any other advanced technique in SSBB.

Right, well there's no doubting SSBB will be different from the fighters of its time as SSBM is now. Think of it this way, if SSBB didn't have WDing but still had advanced techniques and required precision that other fighting games don't, then there would be TWO different Smash games that are "true fighting games". They would both be the same in that they were at the top of the fighting genre, but different from eachother so we would have two ways to play Smash. Neither will ever be boring, a new problem will arise at your STD's- "They're both soo good! Which one should we play?!?"

 

[Inferno_blaze]

WD and L cancelling in SSBM is what set it apart from other fighting games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter.

Uh no. SSB64 did not have WD and it was still greatly different, WD is just an extra feature (if you can call it that) SB sets itself apart by having percentages rather than health and the fact that you have to knock them off the edge.

 

[meteorstorm42]

and like your backstep idea, noobs could do it, but it would take practice to use it well just like Melee's advanced techniques.

Well, I'm hoping it won't take as much practice, lol
I can still remember how long it took me to learn wavedashing Afterwards, working it into gameplay was the fun part, and I'm hoping they'll come up with something that's very easy to do, but tough to work in.

 

[meteorstorm42]

SB sets itself apart by having percentages rather than health and the fact that you have to knock them off the edge.

Not to mention the way you could move your character around the screen. How many other fighters let you double/tripple jump? Heck, how many let you run in both directions?

 

[ciRius j0Qr]

WD is right now the essence on strategy on fighting
They MAY modify it and make not so essential
This way fighting styles are going to change, and WD will be used in a more creative way or style

 

[Sensai]

That's not the point though! We don't want the same game, we want a new game, not just with new characters and levels and all around "stuff." Don't you want it to play differently? The same Smash team that is working on Brawl worked on the original and Melee, they won't screw it up. Changes that are made to the gameplay should be welcomed so we don't have a cloned Melee. I love the WD, I am not against it; I think Brawl should be different though, I want to be surprised with new gameplay.

Remember discovering the WD? and basically all of the advanced techniques? It was cool, it was a new depth to this game that you never knew possible. Well if they just leave the same gameplay in Brawl, you won't get that experience. If they change it, then there will be all new techniques and skills to learn, think of Brawl as an entirely new universe to explore every inch of-as has already been done with Melee.

In terms of competition, that's good for most people, it starts almost everyone off on an even playing field. Which means there will be new champions. Ken, Isai, Azen... you know the rest, will always be kings of Melee, but Brawl will hopefully allow new players to rise to the top.

Excellent point. Excellent....

But, I was reffering to competitive play not being the same, not in Brawl, but in Melee. Someone mentioned something about L-Cancelling, and then someone said L-Cancelling defines higher-end players, and I commented on WDing.

But, you're right. If Brawl was just a Melee clone, it would be somewhat boring somewhat quickly. It needs to have a good variety of new things added, but I believe that the L-Cancel and the WD can stay and not really take away much from the game.