WaveDashing In SSBB

[kaid]

nerf it down!!!!, in a way you can still use it but only once at a time so it dosn't remplace runing

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the imperssion that the only characters that WD faster than they run are Luigi, M2 and IC.

 

[Hyper-Link]

Actually it's the fact that my Link is sooooooo slow. And his wave dash is complete crap compared to someone like Luigi. When I first tried mastering WDing, it was so **** difficult, and then I choose Luigi, and then I end up gliding across the entire stage! If it's a so called glitch, Link should have the dashing ability of Luigi and vice versa.

Like Dodging is the SAME for every character. L-Cancelling is the SAME for eveyr character. Wave Dashing is great for Marth and Luigi, and horrible for Link and Bowser(they are like the two SLOWEST runners in the game, therefor NEEDING the type of dashing skills Luigi has the most)

And THAT's why Wave Dashing isn't fair. When they balance it so that Bowser and Link have Wave Dashes like Luigi and Marth, or make Sheik and Fox's wave dash as bad as Link's and DK's, then the "Masters" can say something.

That's like saying the some good players are better because they can ROLL dodge better, or use PROJECTILES better... I bet I'll use midle tiers like Link and Doc, and you can wavedash all you want, I'll still open a can of whoopass on their so called "dedication"

 

[Mic_128]

! If it's a so called glitch, Link should have the dashing ability of Luigi and vice versa.

They have the exact same wavedash, it's jsut that Luigi, having less traction, gives him a better use of it. Same with power shielding. All the characters can do it, but some (Peach) have it easier than others (DK)

 

[Anther]

Actually it's the fact that my Link is sooooooo slow. And his wave dash is complete crap compared to someone like Luigi. When I first tried mastering WDing, it was so **** difficult, and then I choose Luigi, and then I end up gliding across the entire stage! If it's a so called glitch, Link should have the dashing ability of Luigi and vice versa.

Like Dodging is the SAME for every character. L-Cancelling is the SAME for eveyr character. Wave Dashing is great for Marth and Luigi, and horrible for Link and Bowser(they are like the two SLOWEST runners in the game, therefor NEEDING the type of dashing skills Luigi has the most)

And THAT's why Wave Dashing isn't fair. When they balance it so that Bowser and Link have Wave Dashes like Luigi and Marth, or make Sheik and Fox's wave dash as bad as Link's and DK's, then the "Masters" can say something.

A lot of the points you try to make in your posts aren't linear at all. It sounds like you're blaming wavedashing for making your character slow... I mean.. Sure.. link has a slow jump, so his wavedash takes a bit more to get off. But have you tried it with Young Link? The only thing that you really gain when comparing these 2 character's wavedashes is that Young Link can be more flashy and extraneous with his.

Plus, you're bringing up Tiers a lot. I don't see Young Link's better wavedash being as important as some other qualities that have nothing to do with wavedashing that make link better. hmm...!

I mean.. I've seen some fast Links, that were also able to incorporate Wavedashing successfully into their game play, it sounds like you're blaming a technique for your personal problems >_<.

---
You say Dodging and L-cancelling are the same for every character, and then say wavedashing isn't. That is the most inconsistent piece crazy argument EVER.
Reasons why this doesn't make sense to me and makes your argument look like blatant trolling is simply because.. You're not making any sense XD.

1) Are you saying the controls are the same, because I'm pretty **** sure that the controls for wavedashing are the same for each character
2) You can't mean that the effects of L-Cancelling and Dodging are the same for each character, because there are slight frame differences, which just so happens to be a difference in character's wavedashes.
---

The last part of your post doesn't follow any sort of logical order at all XD.

That's like saying the some good players are better because they can ROLL dodge better, or use PROJECTILES better... I bet I'll use midle tiers like Link and Doc, and you can wavedash all you want, I'll still open a can of whoopass on their so called "dedication"

Normally I don't like to get involved with these sorts of arguments, but you are just so blatantly ignorant of something >_<. Better players use EVERYTHING better than you >=O. I'm saying better players in general. Of course they're going to Roll dodge better, and use projectiles more effectively. I bet you'll use mid tiers, and if they stopped wavedashing as a handicap, they'd still beat you with low-tiers because they're better x_X;.

 

[Doctor X]

Does this really have to be a reapeat of the other topic? Because that's what this seems to be leading into. Haven't you guys already learned that the "realism" debate doesn't go anywhere? It's only diverted attention from the real issue.

What we should be discussing is the impact it actually has on the gameplay itself. Personally, I think it's quite obvious that this impact is positive, if anything. It grants you yet another option in an already deep game, and as others have pointed out it makes a few characters useable that normally couldn't pull their weight in the slightest. Sure, it might not have saved everyone, but the more characters you can pull away from the bottom tier, the better.

I also think those worried about the advantages the wavedash gives to the top tier are forgetting-- the wavedash is only a very small part of what makes the top tier so good. Sure, shinedashing is cool, but Fox could still dominate without it. It's the JC'd shine in general that really makes him so useful. Marth doesn't really need to wavedash as much as people think, and I don't believe I've ever seen a Sheik player use more than the occasional wavedash in a match unless it was for show.

Without it, the tiers would pretty much be the same, except with Luigi, Samus, and the IC's a heck of a lot lower, leaving us with even less options to put up against the mighty top three.

 

[nomis]

Trust him. He's a doctor.

 

[Ember Joe]

I think the best solution is to put L-Canceling and Wavedashing the Manual, incoporate them better into balancing, and give WDing an animation set (whilst you are sliding, not a pre/end animation as the delay would defeat the purspose WDing). The animation would kick in for the second slide. An input method other than the exploit should be used aswell for example:
Hold Shield+DiagonalDown, Tap Jump (excessive tapping would cause you to not gather speed, slow tapping would cause you to slow down between jumps, pitting skill on good timing)
Animations would include luigi pulling the vacuum from nowhere to cause a gust of wind to 'slide on' and mario using FLUDD to spray the ground before him, or just spray infront to push himself back. Due to the speed invovled in WDing, a 'draw item' animation for things like this is unnecissary, as you wouldnt notice.

Balancing would be important. I would like a weight altering system (or asif your % was different) as one way of balancing.
Luigi, in general, should be balanced so that he is a very useful WDer (to tribute Melee), moving faster while WDing, but being lighter at the same time. To give an edge to DK and Bowser, however, could act heavier while WDing, although moving slower.

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

I want to know something.

Which of you, who believe that wave dashing is the GOD of EVERYTHING, actually play SSB online, which has absolutely NO wave dashing? If you have played SSB online you can see how it can be extremely fun and competitive...

PS - wave dashing =\= SSBB (because it sucks)

 

[Smasher89]

I haven´t read everything in the thread, but I think since every character has it´s own wavedash it´s great, it would have been bad if just a few charcters had it, and since it takes timing it requires skill, same thing for L-cancel,

 

[nomis]

I want to know something.

Which of you, who believe that wave dashing is the GOD of EVERYTHING, actually play SSB online, which has absolutely NO wave dashing? If you have played SSB online you can see how it can be extremely fun and competitive...

PS - wave dashing =\= SSBB (because it sucks)

And SSBM is not extremely fun and competitive because of wavedashing? I don't see your point.

WDing should not be in SSBB because it sucks? Great argument.

 

[Scyther3176]

I think that they should keep it in, it doesn't make that much of a difference. If you think about it, about 1/2 of ALL smash players all around the world do not even know what L-Cancelling or Wavedashing is so why should it matter to them so much if they are removed? If WD is removed then they lose nothing, so it isn't really necessary to take it out. Personally you don't NEED to wavedash but it is a good skill to have.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Adding to both sides of the arguement discussed on pg 1rather than repeatin gthe old thread which is what has happened so far (except with less flaming). Note, there are more negatives due to the lack of nedatives posted by the thread starter.

Pros: People consider it to add a new level of depth to the game. Some consider it the only reason tourneys are run. Some believe it helps balance the game. Some consider it so seperate the "pros" from the average/"noob" players. It doesn't really affect balance THAT much in most cases. It is now labelled as a technique (note, this is by fans not the makers). It speeds up the game. Casual gamers don't go to tourneys so shouldn't care.

Negs: Some fail to see how tourneys would stop running due to the loss of WD (my view). Some believe it further destroys certain balances in the game, i.e. better chars end up with a better WD than worse ones. It is a glitch. It doesn't seem "natural" to some (counters with the game being unrealistic fail, sorry but that really sucks). Hyper link gave many other valid points (along with some I don't agree with). Casual gamers will likely go online so WILL care. It makes rolling somewhat irrelevant (note: somewhat). It can spoil a good, skillful game (wtf? My friend says this). By this point I'd already written th below stuff so i've forgotten what I intended to write here so bleh

If anyone would like to add to or correct some points without flaming or arguing stupidly then please feel free. I've tried to include both sides views as best I can. (just for notice I'm mildly anti WD, "mildly" because I don't really give that much of a **** whther it stays or goes, I just prefer not to use it so much)

Now many "pros" seem to think that if WD is removed it will ruin and destroy the game, I personally fail to see how, All you will have to do is adapt your playstyle and use skills of knowledge about the actual characters and their movesets, lag times etc, you will (most likely) still have the other advanced techniques like L-canceling. I don't see the loss of WD being a big one.

Many other people seem to think that if WD stays then it will also utterly ruin the game, this I also fail to comprehend, if it stays then the makers will have most likely balanced it or consider it not too much of a big factor, which really, it isn't sure WD makes already good characters SLIGHTLY better but it really doesn't change the skill of the player. Let's face it the people are still most likely going to beat you anyway (I supose you'd at least get more of a chance).

Another point i've been meaning to make is that with ssbb goes online there will be trouble due to the fact that if WDers go online then people who don't know how to or can't do it very well will be alienated from the service, feeling that they HAVE to learn to WD well if they want to even stand a chance (one of my fears). This is something Nintendo really don't want, they are aiming at the more casual gamerss so may identify this and remove WD because of it. Oh and don't don't give me and of that just because you can't WD crap, I can well enough for my own use.

Just to confirm If you CAN wavedash really well it doesn't make your point any more valid than those who can't. However ANYONE'S views are more valid than someone who calls others "noobs" or uses the term "gay" as an insult or incorrectly, "e.g. Wavedashing it gay you raging homos"

As one last point, IT'S I COULDN'T CARE LESS FFS! NOT I COULD CARE LESS! sorry someone a couple of pages ago said I could care less about the physics, it's the blah blah blah... "could care less" does not work with your statement, I don't care who's told you that's the correct phrase IT ISN'T.

 

[KoreanDJ111]

Nomis go to MLG Anaheim, and we will do a $20 MM there.

 

[JFox]

Hyper Link you are agitated that can't WD very well, but you fail to look at the bigger picture. If link had a better WD, than he would be higher on the tier list. He is good enough where he is considering he is right at the same level as the best WD'er in the game. He isn't supposed to be fast, its called projectiles. Ever see a good link comboing? He isn't supposed to have speed, hence his lack of sliding ability.

All you can think about is how it hurt your character. But really it made the game more fair for the others, and your character is still fine without it.

 

[Sensai]

You really don't represent the con side very well. Maybe that's because they don't have any real points besides '***'.

Ha, sounds almost like the Republican Party.

/flameshield

Anyways, kinda on topic...for those people who think that the WD'll be included in the next one (myself included), do you think that it'll be put in the instruction manual? And also, do you think that the SWD'll still be there?

a) No.
b) No.

 

[Anther]

Yah.. I think I'm going to approach this a lil differently from before. Personally, I don't think it'll better or ruin the game if Wavedashing is in Brawl. If it wasn't in Melee, I admit that playing as IC's definately wouldn't be as fun as it is, but, whatever... people like whining.

k, since the game is going to be online, and if the online is quality enough, the game's obviously going to be even more competitive than it is now. All games become more competition oriented when they jump online. Smash is definately a very deep game to learn, and the deeper a game can be while still being fun to play, the longer people can play and enjoy it while always learning something new.

This is the reason that I believe party or random oriented games don't thrive nearly as well online. You get a better following and community in games that don't run on random gameplay elements, or elements that make skill almost worthless to obtain. They create like... a whole group of players where winning isn't determined by skill at the game.. but messy game mechanics determining who win, which isn't very fun for people that try their best to get better at the game. I know I'm getting way off, but I doubt Smashboards would be as big as it is if every so often, the UFO appeared and just swiped one of your lives away and recovered the health of the losing player.

There's Metroid Hunters, a game that I felt had a lot of potential, but I believe is heavily flawed in how much multiplayer thrives on you being able to run away and collect health, unopposed. You can become skilled with many different weapons, but it tends to boil down to who can get a headshot with the sniper rifle weapon in order to get kills. Otherwise, it's waaaay too easy to run the entire match and collect health with very low chance of getting killed. Game's very fun at newb levels, but is stale as heck starting at mid-level >_<.

If Brawl creates too many elements that make it worthless to get better at the game (Slowing gameplay, element that reacts to losing, removing advantages of techniques).. the game will be up there with so many other worthless 'competitive' games.

Luckily, Smash is still a very deep and indepth game with and without wavedashing, but I have to say.. I've experienced a lot of games that lose their fun value very quickly they give you very little reason to continue playing them. I would hate to have Brawl become one of those, considering that I was able to play Smash for so long without it ever growing stale.

yah.. it's a tangent, but love me anyway ^^.

 

[BrTarolg]

ok. lets take an example which we know alreayd - SSBM

if WD didnt exist in SSBM what would happen?

alot of characters would go down a few tiers, and some would go up few. luigi will definately be lower, and so will samus for example
what would happen to the tournament scene? characters would have to find another way to mindgame. frankly, WD is the best mindgame and dodge around.
roll dodges, but is very easy to counter <bad mindgame>
jump is also a kind of dodge, and is good for mindgames.

so characters like jigglypuff will jump up a few tiers, because all the other characters ability counter WOP will suddenly diminish.

also, it means characters like shiek marth and fox <top tier> will have much less mindgame than before, and since they work on the basis of mistake = they are dead....

shiek dittos will suddenly become a very, VERY long rollfest. i mean it would suck. 20 minute games we are talking about

i played my frined a few days ago in a shiek ditto - we agreed not to WD <well he couldnt do it that well anyway> - the game lasted AGES <pal, no chaingrabbing> - and we kept rolling everywhere - because roll lag was too large, by the time we had dodged an attack with a roll, their attack wuold already CD, so it would become a continuos cycle.


now, lets say WD DID exist in SSBB

well firstly, alot of "pros" will be happy.

secondly, the vast majority of people wont know it exists at all

what happens? well the vast majority wont notice it, wont hear about it, and it wont affect them in the slightest because its not in the manual

the pros will also be happy, because they have a new technique to play with, and the game will keep its immense mindgame depth.

---

frnakly, i dont see anything wrong with it.
if the glitch was used by everyone, and it was REALLY abusable, then that would suck.

but the vast majority of party players DONT use it, and dont know what it is

and its already been shown, that WD is completely fair in the high level

so whats the problem?

 

[Anther]

what happens? well the vast majority wont notice it, wont hear about it, and it wont affect them in the slightest because its not in the manual

the pros will also be happy, because they have a new technique to play with, and the game will keep its immense mindgame depth.

so whats the problem?

Except for the fact that the game is going to be online. I think the only problem with it remaining intact is that there might be people complaining "Exploit!!" I don't know if you can really call it that if it's in 2 games in a row.. but whatever.. I've love for it to be a staple in the Smash series..

I don't know, I barely have any complaints about WDing left except for a lot of people randomly oppose it.

 

[ender]

Wavedashing is not something they put in the game its just a result of the physics engine. If they use the same engine, which it looks like they are, and just changing the graphics/adding stuff, then WD would still be in.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Your matches last 20 mins without wavedash? What the hell? the longest match i've played with normal rules 4 lives has been 15 mins. But then I guess most of my friends are pretty crap... I think they should just speed up rolling a bit and reduce the lag time slightly. I mean people were fine playing normal matches BEFORE WD was discovered, surely they didn't all last 20 mins?

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Also they MAY use the same physics engine, you gotta keep reminding people it's just the physics engine cos the actual ENGINE for the game includes the graphics n stuff, actually now that I come to think of it, I think it includes the physics as an exaple the source engine is used for HL2 Counter Strike: Source, Red orchestra (mod made game) hundreds of mods and now sin episodes too.

Edit: CRAP! Double post, sorry.

 

[beckhamisaqueer]

Just accept that some characters aren't as good as others and play top tier. Not everyone has to be equal in a game.

Because some people enjoy chossing from all characters in the game rather than using an eighth of them. Variety is almost always a good thing.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

The whole Idea of competitive games is that the characters are nearly perfectly equal, otherwise there would be no point in the game, it's never perfect though (even harder with smashbros seeing how many chars there are and how popular it is)

 

[Biggles]

I'm fairly sure that since Wavedashing has become so widespread they will not remove it from the game. I do expect that the physics will be slightly changed like SSB to SSBM though. An issue with this, however is that it could potentially limit the game's success as Nintendo's flagship WiFi title because people who were new to the game and could not WD would feel alienated from the online game, just like with snaking in MKDS. Some people who don't want to be serious and are only interested in having a little fun online would quickly give up and start calling everyone cheaters. Is this what we really want?

 

[Anther]

Snaking is in a whole nother level from Wavedashing.
Plus there will hopefully and most likely be more than one type of online mode, ones more for competitive players, while other modes for the less competitive. =P

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Snaking is cheap though because it removes heavier chars advantages of top speed due to the fact that they're worse at snaking

 

[Scyther3176]

Snaking was allowed into the game and also it is a skill factor, if you snake well then you win more. It was meant to be put in and it was meant to let players try to master the skill. Wavedash is more of a glitch/chance input into the game, not at all meant. Snaking is not cheap, it requires a lot of skill.

 

[Anther]

It actually doesn't require much skill at all, but it also isn't cheap. It's equivalent to L-cancelling, and once everyone can do it, it's very moot. I really don't think it was intentionally given to some Karts... because .. well.. I think Nintendo just lied. >_>.

Suddenly they put a "Skill" that's beyond the normal powersliding, in a game they almost created to have a random winner each race... I think it was pure accident XD.
And it isn't cheap because no one forced you to be a heavier character. It's your fault you wanted a more aesthetically pleasing character. -.O

Wavedashing isn't a necessitity to win, and doesn't create situations where it's impossible for someone else to win.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I prefered the random winners of race styluing of MK, made it a lot funnier to play, I'd hardly call it skillful I was just saying that heavier characters aren't as good at it (well i 'spose it's more karts than chars

 

[Anther]

I hate the random winner style of a game that you can't socialize with any of the random robots it hooks you up with. It upsets me.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

I meant when you're playing with friends my crappy router REFUSES tio allow my DS online, I'm hoping it won't do the same for the wii

 

[nomis]

First, if you don't already know, I'm pro-WD.

Negs: Some fail to see how tourneys would stop running due to the loss of WD (my view). Some believe it further destroys certain balances in the game, i.e. better chars end up with a better WD than worse ones.

Huh? Do you mean, 'Some fail to see how tourneys would NOT stop running due to the loss of WD'? If that's the case, that's a pretty bad argument (I mean for the pro-WDing people). If SSBM didn't have WDing, the game would still be great. WDing just adds depth to an already deep game, making it better. If anyone fails to see this, just look back at SSB64. Although I'm dying for SSB to be in Evo...

It is a glitch. It doesn't seem "natural" to some (counters with the game being unrealistic fail, sorry but that really sucks).

And arguments that it doesn't seem 'natural' fail and really suck, too. SSB is a fighting game with different techniques that all seem unnatural. WDing is yet another one.

Hyper link gave many other valid points (along with some I don't agree with). Casual gamers will likely go online so WILL care. It makes rolling somewhat irrelevant (note: somewhat). It can spoil a good, skillful game (wtf? My friend says this). By this point I'd already written th below stuff so i've forgotten what I intended to write here so bleh

Then the casual gamer should learn how to WD or just not play with people who do/can. The only negative byproduct I see from WDing to the online community are countless rooms of "1v1 NO NOOBS/WDING." But that's not going to happen, as there is that Friends code crap (I don't really know how it's going to work... or if Online is going to even happen).

I hope the above wasn't insulting in any way.
But the rest probably is:

For those of you who claim that the pro-WDing patrons are whining, think again. All they are saying is that it adds more depth and it goes for good mind games. If it is taken out, OK, whatever, doesn't mean they'll be incredibly crappy at the game. What puts them ahead is that they know how and when to use different techniques and moves. WDing helps but not to the extremity of being invincible.

The

Its Negative Impacts: It was not intended when the game creators made the game(although it was found out before the release). Many people say that it should not be used because it unbalances the game since the game creators to not take it into account while making the game.
It did in fact help certain characers that were already high up on the tiers, such as Fox and Marth. But it only helped them slightly..

I don't care what anyone here thinks. I seriously hope they remove this in brawl. It obviously wasn't meant to be. Just look at it! Watch somebody do it and seriously tell me that it isn't a form of glitch. I mean, why does dodge roll even exist, with all it's vulnerabilities?

Some people use it as their only way of moving! Gee, why bother with walk/run animations and the lag time of coming to a sudden turn around, Nintendo? It looks so much cooler to just slide and have a dust spoof appear behind you.

(omitted text)

P.S. I still KO those who wavedash, but it still irritates me to see such "abuse" of an unintended glitch.

Point: Be it pro-WD or not, people whine. Don't focus too much on the whining and try to look for their claims and then counter. No need to whine about it.

Weird... I'm whining about people who whine about whiners... OH SHI-

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Just keep wavedashing in, then everybody's happy. For those who are competitive, not all characters need to wavedash. But if you do get your butt kicked in competitions against those who do wavedash, then that's your problem not Nintendo's.

 

[WiseMike]

Speculation on WaveDashing in SSBB

Wow, there seems to have been a lot written on this topic!

Personally, I'm a dedicated fan to SSB (classic Smash as I call it) and while I own SSBM, I never mastered it to the extent of the original. (I even created a Super Smash Bros. club in my town where friends would come over every Tuesday night and play Smash)

Wavedashing is something new to me that I just learned last week while watching some of the videos on this website. My jaw dropped at how cool it looked, especially with Chu playing the iceclimbers.

I yearn to learn this new technique, but with SSBB coming out in a year, I'd hate to invest so much time in something that could become outdated.

After reading about half of these posts--starting from the original thread, it is my "gut" instinct that wave-dashing, in its current form, will be removed from SSBB. While it seems that the playtesters did spot this technique, I'm thinking they left it in to see what would become of it. Indeed, orginally, wavedashing wasn't seen at the tournament level, until somebody perfected it. And then if I understand correctly, by the next year, only those who mastered it succeeded at tournament play. Techniques that get abused are usually removed or modified. For instance, in SSB one of the best ways to get someone of the platform was to throw them--either forwards or backwards. Now in SSBM, throws often do significantly less damage, and throw the opponent less distance--so now for the most part, throws are only good in chain throws or some other part of a combo.

Another example from Nintendo modifying "glitches" (some were opposed to calling wavedashing a "glitch" and I won't get into that distinction here) happened from MarioKart 64 to MarioKart Doubledash. (Let's face it, a lot of our Smash Bros. characters are in both games) For those of you who have played them, MarioKart 64 had "glitches" in the form of short-cuts on just about every other level. The most famous being on Wario Stadium, where you could easily skip half the level by jumping over the wall, and then if you really practiced, you could skip the second half by jumping back over it. (I think my best lap was 6 seconds once!) Anyways, I loved the short-cuts, and I mastered all of them, and my friends hated it when I would beat them by a full lap sometimes. And really, the short-cuts rewarded the experienced player. But come MarioKart Double Dash and I could never find a way to conveniently skip half of the track--like in Rainbow Road. Now if you jumped off the tract, you couldn't even land on another part of it. The "planned" short-cuts still occassionaly existed, like in Yoshi's island where you use a mushroom or a star to blast into an underground tunnel, (very similar to the planned short-cut on Koopa Beach on MarioKart 64) but the glitch short-cuts were all abolished. (at least I never found one) (I apologize for those of you who haven't played the Mario Kart series)

My point is, the play testers had to have known about the short-cuts in MarioKart 64, at least the Wario Stadium at the least--yet they allowed them to see what would happen. But they removed them from the new version because they were abused and really went against the intent of going around the entire racetrack. Similarly they saw the wavedash and allowed it, but now I'm guessing they will either take it away, or actually program the animation and buttons to do it into the game--or still allow it, but make it less effective, so that every character could still run faster than they could wavedash.

Personally, I think they'll get rid of it altogether, but add some new element into the game that players will have to master--maybe like a slide first seen in Mega Man 3. Something tricky that will take time to master, but will "intentionally" be part of the game--not something that was discovered accidentally during testing, and allowed to remain.

In the end, SSBB, like any good sequel, will keep enough from its predecessor to maintain the loyalty of its fanbase, but also add enough new stuff (techniques/tactics/moves) that upon it's first release, it will fairly level the playing field from former masters and mid-level players of the previous games.

To those of you who can and love to wavedash and wavedance, I wish you the best as I am awed by your abilities and the new mystical flow it gives your characters; and for the sake of the countless hours you've invested perfecting that technique, I hope wavedashing still exists in the sequal. However, I have no doubt that whether or not it does exist in SSBB, you will master and enjoy the game nonetheless.

 

[commonyoshi]

Because some people enjoy chossing from all characters in the game rather than using an eighth of them. Variety is almost always a good thing.

OK... He was whining about how link wasn't as good as marth and stuff so I suggested he use a top tier. I use bottom tiers like Ness as well as characters like fox.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

First, if you don't already know, I'm pro-WD.
Huh? Do you mean, 'Some fail to see how tourneys would NOT stop running due to the loss of WD'? If that's the case, that's a pretty bad argument (I mean for the pro-WDing people). If SSBM didn't have WDing, the game would still be great.

No it was in the neg section meaning people like myself don't understand why those who want WD say if it goes smash bros tourneys will go (I know you didn't use this arguement)

And arguments that it doesn't seem 'natural' fail and really suck, too. SSB is a fighting game with different techniques that all seem unnatural. WDing is yet another one.

What people mean by it beain unnaturall is that it doesn't feel natural within the game mechanics, like where in HL2 you could, by use of it's physics, grab a certain object, look down and repeatedly jump forward to essentially "fly" through levels (you would jump, land on the thing then jump again without it hitting the floor so you could just keep jumping)

Then the casual gamer should learn how to WD or just not play with people who do/can. The only negative byproduct I see from WDing to the online community are countless rooms of "1v1 NO NOOBS/WDING." But that's not going to happen, as there is that Friends code crap (I don't really know how it's going to work... or if Online is going to even happen).

The trouble is many casual gamers don't have time to learn, they don't want to have to go on and practice these moves before going online (I DO have time, I'm not a casul gamer hehe) They just want to (as an example) come home go online for a couple of matches to have some fun then log off and do something else.

I suppose that one good point for them is that it is a minority of the consumers of smash bros that even KNOW about the use of WD so meeting people online who can will happen less often, unless it becomes so popular that EVERYONE uses it. In fact, if it stays I might even humour some people who don't WD by not doing it myself when I play them

I hope I didn't sound too one sided I just like both sides of the arguement heard. Thanks .

 

[Paranoid_Android]

No it was in the neg section meaning people like myself don't understand why those who want WD say if it goes smash bros tourneys will go (I know you didn't use this arguement)

It won't go. It will hurt it though. How can you have a tournament for a game that isn't as well balanced and doesn't have the same high-level tech? WDing is currently one of the hardest things to master.

What people mean by it beain unnaturall is that it doesn't feel natural within the game mechanics, like where in HL2 you could, by use of it's physics, grab a certain object, look down and repeatedly jump forward to essentially "fly" through levels (you would jump, land on the thing then jump again without it hitting the floor so you could just keep jumping)

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think the analogy works. In HL2, there's no way to fly normally. The WD is used much like a dodge and roll - just faster and better and less restrictive. It feels like it belongs in the game because it's much like an already existing game mechanic, but sped up for the tournament gamer (like using Guard Impacts instead of just Blocking in Soul Calibur).

The trouble is many casual gamers don't have time to learn, they don't want to have to go on and practice these moves before going online (I DO have time, I'm not a casul gamer hehe) They just want to (as an example) come home go online for a couple of matches to have some fun then log off and do something else.

Sorry, this argument just doesn't hold water. Reworded, it could very well say "If a gamer who doesn't have any time to play games can't instantly pwn players with time to practice, then the advanced moves that give the less casual gamer an edge should be removed". Comon... Do you really think this makes any sense? I'm willing to wager you're not an idiot.

I suppose that one good point for them is that it is a minority of the consumers of smash bros that even KNOW about the use of WD so meeting people online who can will happen less often, unless it becomes so popular that EVERYONE uses it. In fact, if it stays I might even humour some people who don't WD by not doing it myself when I play them

I hope I didn't sound too one sided I just like both sides of the arguement heard. Thanks .

The online thing has me worried too, and is the only argument that really has any place in the whole debate. Right now, we can safely say that smashers that frequent these forums and tournaments know and want to learn, while casual gamers don't know, and thus aren't affected by it. When online comes out, will casual gamers be in for a rude awakening? I would expect, if left in, a lot of whiney complaints about it, but this is something all competitive games have to go through if the competitive elements will be left in (which I think is better for the game). If you don't want to use it, you don't have to, and if you don't want to fight someone who uses it, you don't have to do that either, I guess, is the point.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

I think it shouldn't be there because not all characters can use it effectively. I think it is good to know how in melee, but i don't think it should carry on to the next one.

 

[nomis]

Wow, there seems to have been a lot written on this topic!

Personally, I'm a dedicated fan to SSB (classic Smash as I call it) and while I own SSBM, I never mastered it to the extent of the original. (I even created a Super Smash Bros. club in my town where friends would come over every Tuesday night and play Smash)

Wavedashing is something new to me that I just learned last week while watching some of the videos on this website. My jaw dropped at how cool it looked, especially with Chu playing the iceclimbers.

I yearn to learn this new technique, but with SSBB coming out in a year, I'd hate to invest so much time in something that could become outdated.

After reading about half of these posts--starting from the original thread, it is my "gut" instinct that wave-dashing, in its current form, will be removed from SSBB. While it seems that the playtesters did spot this technique, I'm thinking they left it in to see what would become of it. Indeed, orginally, wavedashing wasn't seen at the tournament level, until somebody perfected it. And then if I understand correctly, by the next year, only those who mastered it succeeded at tournament play. Techniques that get abused are usually removed or modified. For instance, in SSB one of the best ways to get someone of the platform was to throw them--either forwards or backwards. Now in SSBM, throws often do significantly less damage, and throw the opponent less distance--so now for the most part, throws are only good in chain throws or some other part of a combo.

Another example from Nintendo modifying "glitches" (some were opposed to calling wavedashing a "glitch" and I won't get into that distinction here) happened from MarioKart 64 to MarioKart Doubledash. (Let's face it, a lot of our Smash Bros. characters are in both games) For those of you who have played them, MarioKart 64 had "glitches" in the form of short-cuts on just about every other level. The most famous being on Wario Stadium, where you could easily skip half the level by jumping over the wall, and then if you really practiced, you could skip the second half by jumping back over it. (I think my best lap was 6 seconds once!) Anyways, I loved the short-cuts, and I mastered all of them, and my friends hated it when I would beat them by a full lap sometimes. And really, the short-cuts rewarded the experienced player. But come MarioKart Double Dash and I could never find a way to conveniently skip half of the track--like in Rainbow Road. Now if you jumped off the tract, you couldn't even land on another part of it. The "planned" short-cuts still occassionaly existed, like in Yoshi's island where you use a mushroom or a star to blast into an underground tunnel, (very similar to the planned short-cut on Koopa Beach on MarioKart 64) but the glitch short-cuts were all abolished. (at least I never found one) (I apologize for those of you who haven't played the Mario Kart series)

My point is, the play testers had to have known about the short-cuts in MarioKart 64, at least the Wario Stadium at the least--yet they allowed them to see what would happen. But they removed them from the new version because they were abused and really went against the intent of going around the entire racetrack. Similarly they saw the wavedash and allowed it, but now I'm guessing they will either take it away, or actually program the animation and buttons to do it into the game--or still allow it, but make it less effective, so that every character could still run faster than they could wavedash.

Personally, I think they'll get rid of it altogether, but add some new element into the game that players will have to master--maybe like a slide first seen in Mega Man 3. Something tricky that will take time to master, but will "intentionally" be part of the game--not something that was discovered accidentally during testing, and allowed to remain.

In the end, SSBB, like any good sequel, will keep enough from its predecessor to maintain the loyalty of its fanbase, but also add enough new stuff (techniques/tactics/moves) that upon it's first release, it will fairly level the playing field from former masters and mid-level players of the previous games.

To those of you who can and love to wavedash and wavedance, I wish you the best as I am awed by your abilities and the new mystical flow it gives your characters; and for the sake of the countless hours you've invested perfecting that technique, I hope wavedashing still exists in the sequal. However, I have no doubt that whether or not it does exist in SSBB, you will master and enjoy the game nonetheless.

Sorry for quoting his whole post, but he wins. I'm out.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

well if there is a glitch in SSBB, then it will be found out quick by everyone playing. Like in Halo 2, the glitches spread to peoples knowledge extremely quickly. Forums would help quicken the process. A good example of it from Halo 2 is the "Super Bounce". I was one of the first to learn about it but it seemed within a week it was well known by everyone.