Walling/Zoning - How to get around it?

[Thy Knight]

Okay, so I'm a little nervous about posting in this forum because of the "DO IT RIGHT OR FACE ZEUS' WRATH" thread that was posted by Shaya, but I'm going to go for it anyway.

So I've been playing "For Glory!" for a while now and noted that many of the players that have managed to best me are people who create Walls after Walls of attacks; I believe the correct term that is used by most Smashers is "Zoning".

Whichever way you wish to label it as, I find it an annoying and highly effective strategy of combating aggressive/rush oriented players. For someone who is primarily a Sonic main, I have been graced with plenty of experience fighting these types of players, and I'm hoping through creating this thread that we will learn and come up with new ways of getting around this type of play style.

Now I'll attempt to make myself clear on what I mean by people who create Walls of attacks. For example, say I was facing a Walling Dr.Mario. What this player would do is wait for me to approach him, and when I do, he'll simply throw an attack preemptively in hopes of me running into it. Whether this be a Jab, DTilt, or a Nair, it doesn't matter. He will throw this attack out as many times as he wishes until either I get hit by it, or I hit him first.

Now this "Tactic" can be executed by just about any character, really. I've seen Sheik's, Duck Hunt's (Of course.), Bowser's, Captain Falcon's, Rosaluma's, Greninja's, ect. pull it off effectively. It just frustrates me that such a simple play style that shouldn't work in the first place, does.

So, with this being my first guide and overall 3rd post, I'm going to need some assistance in building this thread/guide properly.

Here are my 2 cents on getting around this pesky tactic:

• Running up and shielding seems to be a good approach against players that are Walling with aerial attacks. Say Sheik's Fair or Mario's Bair.
• For characters that are Walling with Multi-Hitting jabs, say C. Falcon or Little Mac, I would suggest running up to them, shielding and immediately rolling behind them with a counter-attack in mind.
• If the player is using a DTilt, FTilt or Utilt to Wall, then I would suggest for you to run into them, and as soon as you get within range of their attack, shield and spot-dodge immediately. Then have either a grab or another effective counter-attack ready. Keep in mind that your time-frame for a counter attack is short. Your opponent may react to your spot-dodge with a spot-dodge of their own, or simply throw another attack at you.
• If the player is using a mixture of all 3 of these attacks to Wall (which is usually the case), then this is where the mind games come into play. Your best bet in this situation is to predict what form of attack the Waller will use to "Stuff" you, stand and wait just outside of the attack's hitbox, and as soon as the attack's animation is over, have a move ready for them that will either out-prioritise their next move, or will be just outside of their attack-range for them to hit you first.
• Another suggestion for combating Wallers is for you to utilize your character's moveset against them. For example, if I were Sonic and I knew that my opponent was Walling, I would try to get past it by using my Neutral-B (Homing Attack), or holding my Side-B (Spin-Dash) and letting go of the button at just the right moment.
• It's important to note your opponents Spacing as well! If they are perfectly Spacing their attacks so that a Punish seems near impossible, you'll have to consider Trading hits with them. Say if your Ganondorf for instance, and a Sheik is Walling with a Fair, if you Trade your Fair with hers/his (I know Sheiks male, but please.) You will be the one who exchanged more damage and better stage positioning than she did.
• Another thing to consider that is very conditional yet effective, is to use projectiles against them! This will either force your opponent into their shield for a while or better yet, make THEM approach YOU! Wow, they're capable of doing that? A perfect example for executing this is Falco's lasers. If you note that a Waller is just throwing attacks out into thin air, this would be an optimal time for you to shoot them once or even twice. The hit is almost guaranteed to make contact, and this will make your opponent wary of performing the same action twice.
• Finally, if you're a character that has a good Crouch, say Wii Fit Trainer or Kirby, depending on the type of Wall that is being used to stuff your approach, you might be able to briefly crouch under the attack of the Waller, this will allow you to counter-attack with either a UTilt, DTilt, FTilt, even a Grab.

Well, those are my suggestions on the matter. Take from it what you will. Any other alternatives/methods to effectively counteract Wallers would greatly be appreciated. Even if you post something as simple as "Yeah, I've fought people like that before." It would help me know that I at least helped in some way or another.

I truly hope that I'm not the only one that has faced a player like this before..

 

[digiholic]

As Sonic, there probably shouldn't be too much issue getting in on Zoners. He can practically circle Hyrule Temple in between Falco lasers.

 

[Thy Knight]

As Sonic, there probably shouldn't be too much issue getting in on Zoners. He can practically circle Hyrule Temple in between Falco lasers.

I suppose it sounds that way on paper, but you have to keep in mind that movement speed isn't everything. Many characters have a 1-3 frame jab that can just stuff any approach.

Thank you for the input, though!

 

[Ansou]

Running up and shielding being effective against, for instance, Sheiks F-air really depends on your OOS options. Usually wallers will have really good spacing with their moves so that they will become more safe. Jigglypuff, Sheik and Charizard are characters that have walled me out quite well with their F-airs and if they are well spaced, then most characters won't be able to Grab OOS on those attacks. What I've learnt is that, as a Kirby main, I can use my Upper Cutter (Up B 3) OOS against some attacks like that as it has more range. Or that I can sometimes duck under the attacks and strike back with a up tilted F-tilt or a reversed U-tilt.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Smash 4 For Glory is full is players like this. I can't stand to fight them so I run away and jump at full height until they decide they want to actually fight me.
Falco's full hop works pretty well with this along with a couple reflectors to annoy them more. Sonic specifically, all I can say is dodge and try to be unclear on what you are trying to do also your spacing is important.

 

[Casval]

So how would you suggest dealing with projectile spamming? If I'm in range I just powershield until they get sick of it and if I'm out of range I taunt until they're mad enough to approach.

None of these are good counter strategies but I find them amusing.

 

[Thy Knight]

So how would you suggest dealing with projectile spamming? If I'm in range I just powershield until they get sick of it and if I'm out of range I taunt until they're mad enough to approach.

None of these are good counter strategies but I find them amusing.

Mhm. Yeah, it's ironic because that's exactly what I do!

But to attempt to answer your question Casval, I'll begin by stating the obvious. If your someone with a Reflect move, say Palutena or Fox, time your reflects in coordination with their projectiles. I wouldn't use the shine/reflect immediately though! I would wait until the projectile happy player is near me, and then when I have a vision! of him prepping that Saw Blade or Thunder Bolt, I would run into him and reflect. Eventually, if your opponent has a smidgen of intelligence, he will notice the projectiles aren't working and would hopefully opt for something else.

Now it's clear to me that you, Casval, play more heavy based characters. Say someone like Ike or King Enormous Hitboxde for example. Kudos on those mains, bud. It takes quite some time and patience to hone the skills necessary to become triumphant with such heavys. In this case, and I have felt your pain my friend, your best option would be to run into them with your SUPER SANIC SPEED shield and either hold Jab OOS and hope for it to connect or opt for some heavy duty Grab spamming. It's an unfortunate answer I know, but I just can't see you doing much else with someone like Ike the knight in that situation.

If anyone else can think of something better, feel free to mention it. But I truly feel like the Grab button will be your best friend against Hadouken Tryhards projectile spammers.

To arms Ike!

Smash 4 For Glory is full is players like this. I can't stand to fight them so I run away and jump at full height until they decide they want to actually fight me.
Falco's full hop works pretty well with this along with a couple reflectors to annoy them more. Sonic specifically, all I can say is dodge and try to be unclear on what you are trying to do also your spacing is important.

Definitely. Being unclear as to what your next attack will be is also another fantastic point! You'll have to play a little more mind games than usual in scenarios like this. More times than not the Waller will be the one that is more predictable with his attacks. Try using this to your advantage!

Running up and shielding being effective against, for instance, Sheiks F-air really depends on your OOS options. Usually wallers will have really good spacing with their moves so that they will become more safe. Jigglypuff, Sheik and Charizard are characters that have walled me out quite well with their F-airs and if they are well spaced, then most characters won't be able to Grab OOS on those attacks. What I've learnt is that, as a Kirby main, I can use my Upper Cutter (Up B 3) OOS against some attacks like that as it has more range. Or that I can sometimes duck under the attacks and strike back with a up tilted F-tilt or a reversed U-tilt.

Well said! You're absolutely right, Ansou. Indeed, if your opponent is both Walling and Spacing his attacks properly, then you are in for the long haul. It really comes down to what you opt for Out Of Shield. You must consider the result of the attack that you will use to counter-attack with before you make that input. Always go for the attack that is the most preferable in each given scenario.

For example, if your opponent is near the edge of the stage and your character is near the middle of it, then depending on your Percent, you should go for an attack that would most likely trade with your opponent. This way, you get maximum stage positioning from him flying off the arena and you'll get to play the Ledge Game! in where you have a myriad of options to opt toward. You could Donald Trump your opponent if you're quick enough and sap him of his precious invincibility on the ledge, or if your opponent has fallen below the stage and is recovering, you could be extra-aggressive and go for a Stage-Spike, Spike, Bair, the option is up to you!

Now keep in mind if you're down a stock, unless the Trade will end your opponents stock, don't try to Trade attacks with him. (And that's when it gets REALLY annoying!) Because that's exactly what he wants. He's only trying to tack on damage to your Percent, he doesn't care how much damage he takes.

Of course, most of what I just said is very situational, and most likely won't come into effect in most situations, but I'm just listing all the possible alternatives you could take to combat "Mr. WALZ4DAEZ."

 

[Fenrir]

...Would it be too much to ask that you write your posts in a color that is not absolutely horrible to read?

 

[Thy Knight]

...Would it be too much to ask that you write your posts in a color that is not absolutely horrible to read?

As you wish. But from what you deciphered from my posts, did the guide help out in any way?

 

[Fenrir]

Content-wise I'd say it's rather good. So apologies for my abrasiveness there. The text issue just kinda evoked this primal reaction of "why would someone even *do* that?" and I had to get it out of my system <_<

 

[Thy Knight]

Content-wise I'd say it's rather good. So apologies for my abrasiveness there. The text issue just kinda evoked this primal reaction of "why would someone even *do* that?" and I had to get it out of my system <_<

Well, blue is my favourite colour. But no worries, it's not like I took it personally.

 

[Frandango]

So I have a friend that plays toon link. He's easier to read than green eggs and ham. Since all he does is hide behind his projectiles. For example he'll approach with his side b, and if it hits or not he'll do neutral b. I know his set up, I just find it difficult if I go for the power shield option. Since I'll be in shield lag if he throws another arrow he'll just grab me. Does anyone know a good approach to these players?

 

[Thy Knight]

So I have a friend that plays toon link. He's easier to read than green eggs and ham. Since all he does is hide behind his projectiles. For example he'll approach with his side b, and if it hits or not he'll do neutral b. I know his set up, I just find it difficult if I go for the power shield option. Since I'll be in shield lag if he throws another arrow he'll just grab me. Does anyone know a good approach to these players?

That was a hilarious metaphor with the Dr. Seuss reference! Anyway, concerning your question:

To be honest with you, I feel that players that wall with projectiles are easier to battle against with speedy characters than players that are walling with melee attacks.This is simply because once you actually get in on your target, there is very little they can do to get you out; save rolling.

So, seeing as you're a Falcon main, I would recommend constantly being right up in his face. Easier said than done, I know. But it's truly the best way to approach this situation with Falcon. I'll give you a few pointers as well.

1. If Toon Link throws a boomerang behind you, chances are it's going to come back at you. Instead of shielding in fear, I'd suggest that you roll behind Toon and continue pressuring from there. Another way of dealing with a returning boomerang is by staying in the air. Now sure Toon can up smash or throw a bomb at you or even UAir you, but chances are you'll either avoid said attacks, or he won't even opt for them. Dodging the boomerang is also an option, but a more slower and easily recognizable one as well.

2. Another thing that comes to mind when I think Falcon is his Specials! I'm pretty positive that your down B goes through/clanks with projectiles. If you see a boomerang coming, kick it into orbit! Or perhaps even raptor boost it.

3. Players like the Loony Toon you described tend to love rolling. A lot. So, either get a good read when your in on him, or throw your DSmash out when in range to cover both of his options; save maybe block. That might get you punished.

3. If all else fails, either switch character and annihilate him, or just grab a lot. Grabbing with Falcon seems to be relatively easy because of the extended range he has when he dash grabs, and his follow-ups afterward can be crucial to tacking on the percent needed to send Toon back to the spirit tracks.

~ I hope I helped at least a little, seeing as I also hate facing players such as your "friend." Good luck Frandango!