Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

I think the "heavy" label is better associated with character/hurtbox size than weight.

That's why I call Mewtwo a heavy without the heavy.

Do people call Rosalina a heavy?

 

[RayNoire]

Do people call Rosalina a heavy?

She's just tall, not wide.

 

[TurboLink]

Do people call Rosalina a heavy?

No, and I've never seen someone call Mewtwo a heavy. Quite the opposite. xD

 

[Mario766]

A heavy in Smash talks about weight.

Heavies usually also fall fast due to weight/gravity with few exceptions that are light fast fallers like spacies.

Falcon is a perfect example, he has high weight AND high fall speed so he has both aspects of a 'Heavy'.

 

[Diddy Kong]

DK! Viable!? What the **** did I miss!? This is like, a dream come true!

M2K picking up DK and getting results with him! Wow, never thought this would happen. Where can I see some footage of this all?

 

[DungeonMaster]

If Samus's Missile total frames was 45, it would make Falco's Blaster even worse. Thank you, developers, for making Samus's Missile worse, but still better than Falco's Blaster. Anyway, I digress and this is off-topic.

The full video will be out in a bit. Falco's blaster is no where near as bad as Samus' homing missile, homing missile is easily the worst projectile, perhaps worst single move in the game.
I would trade for falco's blaster in a heartbeat. At the very least you can't jump straight into falco and hit him in the face while breaking his laser shot at the exact same time.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Do people call Rosalina a heavy?

Yes people call rosalina a heavy... In Mario Kart

No, and I've never seen someone call Mewtwo a heavy. Quite the opposite. xD

Well mewtwo is technically a heavy in the pokemon games. 269 pounds ain't light.
In fact that's pretty ****ing heavy.
The fact that mewtwo is a ballon weight in smash just baffles me.

Didn't Kirby also have a kill throw in the E3 demo? Pretty sure nerfs were universal.

Yeah kirby did have a kill throw in the e3 demo and last time I checked that thing could kill pretty early.
Also can you imagine if zss kept her old side b?

 

[Smog Frog]

are missiles worse than aerials?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

She's just tall, not wide.

Her dress is pretty freaking wide, but I doubt her dress is a hurtbox.

That said, Luma's existence can create easy hitbox extensions, which makes it unusually difficult for her to properly dodge and punish some attacks. (She can't spotdodge > punish Bouncing Fish, for instance.)

 

[DungeonMaster]

are missiles worse than aerials?

"You ain't no air fighter Mac" might as well be "you ain't no homing missile fighter Samus".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2_6RaaMdp8
Yeah, they are very, very bad. Super missiles have some redeeming properties, homing missiles don't.
Some of us still have hope for this character, homing missiles are no part of that hope.

 

[san.]

I think that DK's probably better than Ike. DK doesn't have to play his old game any more. If he focuses on grabs and his fastest moves, he really doesn't have to commit to much. It's an annoying playstyle, but I believe it's one that works and is easy to implement. Cargo is also good enough to see future development imo. At higher %, you can move around and position yourself better with it, too.

 

[Nu~]

Not to mention his free cargo throw stage spike.

If you don't have a Pac-Man/Villager type recovery, you aren't coming back.

 

[outfoxd]

Legit, I'm almost thinking about picking up DK. Hell, i played Tager in Blazblue. Reminds me of that fg archetype. Having one that actually works in smash is intriguing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I am now considering dropping both Toon Link and Mewtwo for more time development into DK. From all my secondaries, Toon Link and Mewtwo are the least fun anyway. Ness and Ike get to stay though.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah kirby did have a kill throw in the e3 demo and last time I checked that thing could kill pretty early.

Every time I see a Kirby Upthrow at like ~140% on a stream, and hear the commentators go "Alright that should be a kill!" and then it's nowhere close at all, I'm like

Sorry about the recording problems

Oh well, it'll definitely be buffed someday. Like... maybe in that patch that's coming out today??

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Not to mention his free cargo throw stage spike.

If you don't have a Pac-Man/Villager type recovery, you aren't coming back.

Yes you are. You tech it and/ or mash out. It is by no means "free" unless you dont know how to do either of those things.

 

[Smash4Player64]

Every time I see a Kirby Upthrow at like ~140% on a stream, and hear the commentators go "Alright that should be a kill!" and then it's nowhere close at all, I'm like

Sorry about the recording problems

Oh well, it'll definitely be buffed someday. Like... maybe in that patch that's coming out today??

I'm pretty sure there's only mainatance today.

 

[Blobface]

Every time I see a Kirby Upthrow at like ~140% on a stream, and hear the commentators go "Alright that should be a kill!" and then it's nowhere close at all, I'm like

Sorry about the recording problems

Oh well, it'll definitely be buffed someday. Like... maybe in that patch that's coming out today??

Well it does go up platforms and knocks vertically, so it can hypothetically kill around that %.

Point still stands though.

 

[san.]

I need to make a few more details about why I think DK is good that wasn't shown by M2k so I can show that this thought isn't just bandwagoning.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Donkey Kong

DK's tilts are quite good. They all have arm intangibility.

Ftilt hits on frame 9-11 with a FAF of 38. On shield drop, that's -17. That's not bad for a disjointed long range tilt, a little punishable.
Utilt hits on frame 5-11 with a FAF of 39. -18 to -24 on shield drop, but it's worth the risk for the combo ability at low % and kill potential at high %. Arm intangibility makes it a decent anti-air. 39 frames ends quickly.
Dtilt hits on frame 7-9 with a FAF of 23. That's roughly -6 on shield drop, quite a safe attack. It also has a trip chance or some knockback into a potential dash attack/grab.

Jab is below average though by hitting on frame 5-6 with a FAF of 25. Roughly -12 on shield. Probably okay at max distance, but it does string (or combo?) into grab.

Nair, bair and uair have good FAF in the air. DK's bair is surprisingly poor in the air because the foot hurtbox lingers, but if it's used for landing, it's roughly -6 on shield drop. DK players shouldn't use bair as much.

These tilts are great for maintaining space. The problem with prepatch DK was that he couldn't blow opponents up and therefore didn't get much reward from these tilts. It was also really difficult to make use of DK's quick ending aerials since it was easy to hit him out of them. With the improved dash attack (can combo off of it too) and throw reward, DK can simply move around, space tilts, jab, etc. and fish for the grab or dash attack much more easily.

That's why I think DK is good, and I haven't seen this type of playstyle exploited to its fullest yet. Saw too many commitments that didn't need to be made with DK's new tools.

 

[Nu~]

Yes you are. You tech it and/ or mash out. It is by no means "free" unless you dont know how to do either of those things.

Not if he throws you into the ledge. You would be too close to tech. And, if he grabs you by the edge of the stage it's not easy to mash out in time.

Perhaps "free" was the wrong term, but it's definitely a thing

 

[DunnoBro]

I think that DK's probably better than Ike. DK doesn't have to play his old game any more. If he focuses on grabs and his fastest moves, he really doesn't have to commit to much. It's an annoying playstyle, but I believe it's one that works and is easy to implement. Cargo is also good enough to see future development imo. At higher %, you can move around and position yourself better with it, too.

Yea, Ike's a better version of the character he was.

DK's just a new, better character.

 

[Blobface]

Not if he throws you into the ledge. You would be too close to tech. And, if he grabs you by the edge of the stage it's not easy to mash out in time.

Perhaps "free" was the wrong term, but it's definitely a thing

uh, throws don't have hitlag do they?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Not if he throws you into the ledge. You would be too close to tech. And, if he grabs you by the edge of the stage it's not easy to mash out in time.

Perhaps "free" was the wrong term, but it's definitely a thing

Have you tested it? I've had opponents tech it.

 

[Nu~]

Have you tested it? I've had opponents tech it.

I mean, the first time it happened to me I couldn't tech it.
It's probably just a tight window.

 

[Locke 06]

Jab is below average though by hitting on frame 5-6 with a FAF of 25. Roughly -12 on shield. Probably okay at max distance, but it does string (or combo?) into grab.

Tipper jab 1 leads to grab. Yes.

 

[Harlow]

I don't really like the idea of nerfing any character, in honesty. Just improve the bad characters until things are balanced.

 

[Djent]

I think it'll be awhile until the new DK is optimized. His fiercest devotees (including Will) have traditionally gone for risky reads because that was the most rewarding thing to do. I kind of think newer converts like M2K (who have the propensity for playing extra safe) will play an important role in this character's development.

 

[M15t3R E]

I think it'll be awhile until the new DK is optimized. His fiercest devotees (including Will) have traditionally gone for risky reads because that was the most rewarding thing to do. I kind of think newer converts like M2K (who have the propensity for playing extra safe) will play an important role in this character's development.

Right now if you compare Will's and M2K's Donkey Kongs side by side (watch SKTAR4) Will clearly shows that playing risky and aggressive with DK is more rewarding.
I like DK, but I'm not excellent with him. I would like to see him get buffed. At the moment, Will and M2K believe DK to be mid tier.

 

[thehard]

Early on when M2K started getting interested in DK, he was up all night in Will's stream borderline harassing him to test certain setups. It was really funny.

 

[Shaya]

M2K is the reason we thought Dedede was third in the game during early Brawl :3
He's always going to be potent with this archetype of play style. i.e. grabs, but with style.


Btw instead of saying "heavy"
I SAY "fatty" which is what those characters are: FAT. Mewtwo is fat. His fat is made of helium.

ZSS doesn't wreck heavies inherently, she wrecks FATTIES inherently.

 

[Smog Frog]

hydrogen is lighter :3

speaking of light characters...
apparently @Dabuz think that has a decent mu(i heard him say this about a month ago? it really caught my attention)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Right now if you compare Will's and M2K's Donkey Kongs side by side (watch SKTAR4) Will clearly shows that playing risky and aggressive with DK is more rewarding.
I like DK, but I'm not excellent with him. I would like to see him get buffed. At the moment, Will and M2K believe DK to be mid tier.

You... want DK......... buffed??

 

[Jehtt]

What exactly can Jigglypuff do to Rosalina's shield? Or her anti air options like Up Smash and Up Tilt?

 

[Ffamran]

The full video will be out in a bit. Falco's blaster is no where near as bad as Samus' homing missile, homing missile is easily the worst projectile, perhaps worst single move in the game.
I would trade for falco's blaster in a heartbeat. At the very least you can't jump straight into falco and hit him in the face while breaking his laser shot at the exact same time.

In terms of risk/reward, Falco's Blaster is a similar risk or even higher risk for very low reward. The positional advantage of being able to knock someone back while dealing 10% from Super Missile is a much better reward than stunning someone, but the end lag is too long, so Falco ends up being disadvantaged even at max distance - depends on some characters. Homing Missile would be much better if it didn't have long end lag and even though it might be bad, here's the thing: Samus has 2 versions of a projectile while Falco only has 1 and it's linear. Sure, it might be slow, but having options makes Homing Missile a bit better when you have Super Missile. It's also why I don't get it when people say Hadouken's a bad projectile. Ryu can vary Hadouken's speed from slow, medium, and fast along with having the ability to fire a Shakunetsu. That means Ryu can not only vary his projectile's speed, but change the way it interacts. Samus can only change the way it interacts, but having that option which is unique to her, Ryu, Mii Gunner, and kind of the Links and the Pits is a very strong trait.

Personally, I think the worst projectile goes to Gordo, but that wouldn't make sense when it's not really a projectile and more of a trap move. Following that, in terms of risk/reward, the worst would be Falco's Blaster. What follows that? I don't know, but there aren't a lot of high risk/low reward projectiles in this game. In most cases, weaker projectiles are high risk/mediocre reward like Samus's Missile or Bowser's Flame Breath? or even risk/even reward like Mario's Fireballs or Duck Hunt's Clay Shot. High risk/high reward goes to moves like Zelda's Din's Fire or other kill projectiles in MUs where you can reflect them like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Lucario's Aura Sphere, Zelda's Phantom Slash, Villager's Fair and Bair - it can and will kill -, Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit, Mega Man's Charge Shot or Samus's Charge Shot. Low risk/high reward ones are few and only Sheik's Needles come to mind while low risk/low reward ones would Fox's Blaster and Mega Man's Lemons, but those add up and can become low risk/mediocre reward or low risk/high reward.

Anyway, I would rather have Ryu's Hadouken. No Shakunetsu, no Street Fighter inputs, just a regular Hadouken. Why? Much larger projectile and more damage with the same end lag, but I can knock people back and still gimp them. Even though I would lose the ability to continually fire and lasers' transcendent priority, I get in return the ability to hit/negate projectiles with a projectile. Also, it would look cool.

 

[KenMeister]

hydrogen is lighter :3

speaking of light characters...
apparently @Dabuz think that has a decent mu(i heard him say this about a month ago? it really caught my attention)

Wasn't Dabuz also the same top player who believes Jiggs is pretty bad in this game? Seems kinda weird to be saying coming from him.

 

[Asdioh]

Falco's laser and D3's Gordos have uses. They're not something you can use often, but you can put meaningful pressure/free damage with them. Samus' Homing Missiles... I'm not sure, I guess the defaults are pretty bad in this game huh? But at least her super missile is usable. I still think Zelda's Din's Fire is the worst projectile in the game, 3 games in a row, at least for singles. In doubles it's kinda usable. Don't forget Final Cutter is garbage once again, but this time its range got cut in half from Brawl :D

And yeah I can't see Jigglypuff doing anything to Rosalina.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Falco Blaster is terribly mediocre but it's not the worst projectile by a long shot.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's laser and D3's Gordos have uses. They're not something you can use often, but you can put meaningful pressure/free damage with them. Samus' Homing Missiles... I'm not sure, I guess the defaults are pretty bad in this game huh? But at least her super missile is usable. I still think Zelda's Din's Fire is the worst projectile in the game, 3 games in a row, at least for singles. In doubles it's kinda usable. Don't forget Final Cutter is garbage once again, but this time its range got cut in half from Brawl :D

And yeah I can't see Jigglypuff doing anything to Rosalina.

I look at it from a risk/reward point of view. Even if it has some niche uses like Fox's Blaster is just for chipping damage and doing the stale prevention thing, it does those things well and safely. Final Cutter's not really a projectile in my opinion. It's kind of like saying Ike's Aether is sort of a projectile or Zelda's Phantom Slash is a projectile. Aether can't be reflected, but Phantom Slash can, but it's not really a projectile in a sense you're throwing, well, a projectile out. Final Cutter's shockwave is like an after effect of the move or a safety net like landing hits from aerials while Phantom Slash is more of a backstabbing summon.

 

[M15t3R E]

You... want DK......... buffed??

Just slightly. Will would probably have some better input on this but it'd be nice to see either the end lag of some of his attacks or landing lag of some moves to be reduced so he could be played a bit more safely.

 

[wedl!!]

i can't decide whch projectile is worse; homing missiles, final cutter, lucas pkt1, or koopa cannon.