Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[HFlash]

what characters do you all feel should get the treatment, in descending order?

For me at least, I'd say .
Before the last patch, I would have added WFT, but she just got some pretty significant buffs and quality of life improvements and where she stands is pretty unknown right now. Nothing crazy, but in general, slightly better hit boxes, frame data, and % on hit might be enough for dedicated mains for each respective character to break the ceiling, and get some consistent results with them.
Oh and possibly give poor a grab range buff, especially considering customs off seems to be the general mindset for most people in the Smash Community post EVO.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The middle row was thrown together whimsically. They can go in any order, so long as optimal Wario remains above all of them, and Sonic remains below.

Ness is the number 11 spot. Just shy of 10.

 

[HFlash]

Purely anecdotal, but the first player I ever got bodied by on FG was a Japanese Yoshi player who dominated me physically and spiritually. So I've always combined that (one off) event with all the talk of Yoshi being high tier, and just thought "Huh, I guess Yoshi is high tier, even though he doesn't really have any tournament representation."

Maybe...maybe we're all just carrying psychic scars from devastating Yoshi losses.

The image that goes through my mind looking at your default and post

 

[Ikes]

nah yoshi is just good and yoshi mains unnecessarily underrate him

 

[Smog Frog]

i would like to know why is so low. its pretty clear that he is an amazing character.

also why is outside of top 10? he's a very strong character too.

 

[bc1910]

If Villager's results are down to 1 player then I can see why he wouldn't be top tier. And it seems like that is the case. But to take him out of high tier completely? Seems unfair.

My personal top characters list:

SS:
S:

A+:
A:
A-:

B+:
B:
B-:

S-tiers are top tiers, A-tiers are (upper) high tiers and B-tiers are (lower) high tiers. Characters are ordered within their groups. There are 20 characters listed, top 10 cutoff is Luigi and top 15 cutoff is Yoshi.

Spoiler: Explanations

My top 5 is the same as Cassio's. All great characters on paper and in practice. Sheik still has some real balancing issues, I think she DOES need a solid nerf and not just more slaps on the wrist. I think her dominance will only get worse if something isn't done. The others are pretty well balanced yet strong IMO. Flip Jump and Quick Attack could both use some tweaking but there's not much else.

A-tier was hard to order and it pains me to put Sonic so low when I still think campy Sonic should be winning everything, but plenty of results have proved me wrong.

I'm not ready to take Luigi out of top 10. People love to underrate him but this character obliterates half the cast and beats several good characters that hardly anyone else does, such as Pikachu, Mario and Diddy. He is very polarised in his strengths and weaknesses; I think this could cause a drop-off in future with how easily he might be counterpicked, but his placement is fine for now.

I think Villager is a lot worse in theory but you can't argue with his national results in Japan. MK is flavour of the month theorycraft top tier, I don't know if people will be talking him up as much in 2 weeks time let alone next month. Results are good for now which keeps him high but I can see him moving either way on the tier list. Wario seems amazing to be honest, could be higher, but the characters above him are safer bets.

Falcon clearly gets obliterated by Sheik but has solid results and representation is picking up. I'm kind of off the Yoshi hype train, kept him at 15 largely because of "it's Yoshi" syndrome and also his results are better than Greninja's, but I think he could fall.

Going by power rankings, Greninja has MUCH better results than I thought he did, clocking in at 23rd. He's also had some rep at nationals, I don't feel Apex should be discounted yet and aMSa got 33rd at Evo due to a last stock last hit situation against Dabuz. IMO Greninja's buffs made him leapfrog (chuckle) over about 10 characters who he previousy tussled with for a place in top 20. Patch 1.10 gave him everything he needed to be viable and I think placing him 16th is fair.

I believe in Ryu, he lacks results right now (though I know EL and Trela have been putting in work) but he is hard punishment in character form and he will end ANY character who doesn't respect him. Lucario is "Bull****: The Character" but has solid results and insane comeback potential. I can't see any MU being worse than -1 for him, but he probably doesn't beat many characters strongly either. Despite a fairly balanced MU spread he seems inconsistent at high level, he's an all-or-nothing pick. The Pits round out the high tiers, some might see them as more upper mid but and their results aren't as good as I thought they were. Still, Nairo is Nairo, and from what I know the Pits have solid MU spreads with few (if any) true counters.

Honourable mentions to , , , , and maybe .

probably deserves a shoutout too, a hard-to-place character with some good national level results thanks to Abadango, though they seem to have dropped off.

 

[Antonykun]

I swear if it isn't baseless buffs and nerfs its baseless tier lists
well @ Shaya didn't make death threats over tier lists so w/e
btw not directed at @ bc1910

 

[bc1910]

I swear if it isn't baseless buffs and nerfs its baseless tier lists
well @ Shaya didn't make death threats over tier lists so w/e
btw not directed at @ bc1910

Well yeah, I don't like baseless crap so I included explanations.

 

[RaptorTEC]

yep, you're just being pessimistic. If you actually think that Yoshi can't deal with those characters then you're not trying hard enough.

I've known Slush for a while now and he is very pessimistic. That's not to say he's entirely wrong though. Yoshi in no way goes toe to toe with Shiek/ZSS/Fox. CF/Mario/Pikachu/Luigi I'd say is even or slightly in Yoshi's favor though (Falcon being the only one slightly in his favor). Yoshi is not a bad character. He is definitely not OP or top 5 or anything but he's a high tier.

@ Sinister Slush What I'm getting at in that post is he has the potential to be a solid top 8 character but even if I'm wrong about the high skill cap, which I doubt, he would still be somewhere in high tier. Probably at the bottom though tbh.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik needs tweaks. No nerfs at all
She's also not a tier above ZSS and pika. This isn't brawl or melee lol.

 

[warionumbah2]

He's being rated high(lol top 5) because if you look past the flavor of the month happening twice in a row you'll notice that he's been getting good results for months.

He hasn't slowed down results wise, he's been staying consistent and after Mr R busting out his pocket 2 week MK more people will attempt to use him as pocket to counter some characters like Rosalina.

4 high level MKs in the world getting great results, 2 in the US, 1 in Mexico and 1 in Japan. He's surpassed theorycraft by not getting obliterated at EVO.

I see too many "lets see how he does now" be posted when MK does something, but he continues to do well anyway. Unless the patch makes ZSS a God he will continue to do well.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy loses to Mario, Luigi, and pikachu, while having a pretty tough time against wario too IMO even if it's pretty much even.

That's a lot of top/high tier matchups to be struggling in to be considered s tier or top 5. Going even with Shiek is pretty huge and he bodies a lot of less popular chars but the few matchups he loses in are really common, besides pikachu.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

what characters do you all feel should get the treatment, in descending order?

Samus and Mewtwo are the only two that suffer from serious design flaws that need re-structuring. They are probably the only two who really deserve to get buffs. They both feel kinda broken.

Jigglypuff and King Dedede should get buffs. Dr. Mario as well, because he's just a worse Mario and that sucks.

But should be the priority, although there are more characters who ought to be buffed.

Edit: Forgot about Zelda. She got some pretty big buffs last patch, so she's a secondary priority imo. The four I mentioned have gotten little to nothing.

nah yoshi is just good and yoshi mains unnecessarily underrate him

The people who know more about the character than you rate him differently? Fascinating.

Edit: That's actually kind of unfair. There's a clear flaw in my logic. Mains of a character sometimes get a skewed perspective of how the character stands in the metagame. They either focus too much on the character's flaws or focus too much on their strengths, and over or under-rate them. But, in this case, it's a big enough consensus that we can't just ignore it. Even if there are a couple dissenters.

 

[Ikes]

z e l d a

dont forget the perfect girl in worst tier
she needs some buffs man

 

[bc1910]

Diddy loses to Mario, Luigi, and pikachu, while having a pretty tough time against wario too IMO even if it's pretty much even.

That's a lot of top/high tier matchups to be struggling in to be considered s tier or top 5. Going even with Shiek is pretty huge and he bodies a lot of less popular chars but the few matchups he loses in are really common, besides pikachu.

I can't speak for others but his consistently excellent results (top 8 in majors) despite the nerfs keep him there for me. Based on theory I can see about half my A-tiers being better than him but the results aren't there.

 

[ffdgh]

But Zelda is the best character in the game. /s

Kidding aside, It would be great if din's fire had it's sweet spot buffed/bigger.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've known Slush for a while now

How could you know me when you didn't even have me on facebook until just last month?!

 

[Ikes]

it'd be nice if it were faster and could execute closer to your body

all of her specials should have faster startup and her dthrow should combo into up b if you ask me B)

also having bigger hit boxes on tilts would be nice

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I can't speak for others but his consistently excellent results (top 8 in majors) despite the nerfs keep him there for me. Based on theory I can see about half my A-tiers being better than him but the results aren't there.

Mario and sonic don't have results too? These are the two characters i could see edging him out of the top 5.

-IMO, followed by .

But we're looking at really close calls at this point. People are gonna disagree.

 

[Balgorxz]

z e l d a

dont forget the perfect girl in worst tier
she needs some buffs man

I'm pretty sure zelda isn't in samus tier

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm pretty sure zelda isn't in samus tier

I'm pretty sure you're gonna need to say why if you expect anyone to believe you

 

[Ghostbone]

Yay lets argue whether unviable trash A is better then unviable trash B

Zelda/Samus are both pretty bad.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Does anybody think that pika is #2 and ZSS is #3?
I'm starting to gravitate towards that thinking along with fox being right under those too

 

[Ikes]

it's so weird too

because that means two characters with two versions in game are both the best and second best, and worst and second worst

Zelda is the worst, but the best as sheik
Samus is the second worst, but second best as Zero Suit

the hell is this, is sakurai trolling us?

 

[Woohoo982]

Yes, but in a perfect world, Mii Gunner and Zelda can be seen at a grand finals of a national, chocolate ice cream didn't make you fat, you could get a job with an English degree, there was no lag in For Glory, the separate Smash communities didn't hate on each other, and so on. It's not practical, but it's doable and it really does feel with each patch (having more buffs than nerfs), SM4SH is getting closer and closer to that ideal state. Nothing wrong with advocating more of the same.

since when was Mii Gunner bad?(well non-1111 Gunner anyways)

 

[Ikes]

What does gunner have to challenge defensive play/shields?
he has the same issue as Toon Link: no shield pressure
and since Shields are crazy good in this game that's a pretty big flaw
Maybe he has strengths to make up for his weaknesses, IDK. Tink does, Mii Gunner i'm not knwledgeable enough about

and if he does have good shield pressure, then sue me. But from what I've seen he's got nothing that actually has any risk against a shield. At least his grab is probably better than Tink's.

 

[FullMoon]

Weren't Gunner's grenades nerfed in this update?

 

[Nu~]

What does gunner have to challenge defensive play/shields?
he has the same issue as Toon Link: no shield pressure
and since Shields are crazy good in this game that's a pretty big flaw
Maybe he has strengths to make up for his weaknesses, IDK. Tink does, Mii Gunner i'm not knwledgeable enough about

and if he does have good shield pressure, then sue me. But from what I've seen he's got nothing that actually has any risk against a shield. At least his grab is probably better than Tink's.

Grenades **** on shields.

Weren't Gunner's grenades nerfed in this update?

Wat??

 

[san.]

Gunner loves shields.

Landing with Fair is + on shield.

If you shield a grenade, Gunner can just walk up and grab you.

Bomb drop deals 23 shield damage.
Charge shot deals 22 shield damage and the recent patch decreased the end lag.
Super Missile deals 15% damage and has significantly less ending lag from the patch (+ on block at mid distance)
Dtilt deals 14% damage.

Gunner dislikes strong aggression.

Grenades **** on shields.

Wat??

Grenades are destroyed if they make contact with a hitbox. I think that's a fine change since I felt they were a bit OP before. On the flip side, charge shot was sizably buffed and is good for pressure.

Nerfed Grenades + Buffed Missiles > Old grenades + Old missiles.

 

[Ikes]

how much shield damage does grenade do? What can someone shielding a grenade so to react?

I'm not asking for more shieldstun but it doesn't seem like the grenade would guarantee any followups unless you can get a grab as the blast is active. And if it doesnt do significant shield damage then it's probably not worth deploying on shield.

Gunner loves shields.

Landing with Fair is + on shield.

If you shield a grenade, Gunner can just walk up and grab you.

Bomb drop deals 23 shield damage.
Charge shot deals 22 shield damage and the recent patch decreased the end lag.
Super Missile deals 15% damage and has significantly less ending lag from the patch (+ on block at mid distance)
Dtilt deals 14% damage.

Gunner dislikes strong aggression.



Grenades are destroyed if they make contact with a hitbox. I think that's a fine change since I felt they were a bit OP before. On the flip side, charge shot was sizably buffed and is good for pressure.

Nerfed Grenades + Buffed Missiles > Old grenades + Old missiles.

I suppose this answers that, thanks!

Too bad his entire kit is laggy as all hell.

 

[san.]

how much shield damage does grenade do? What can someone shielding a grenade so to react?

I'm not asking for more shieldstun but it doesn't seem like the grenade would guarantee any followups unless you can get a grab as the blast is active. And if it doesnt do significant shield damage then it's probably not worth deploying on shield.



I suppose this answers that, thanks!

Too bad his entire kit is laggy as all hell.

Grenade combos at 0% from point blank range (the worst followup potential possible). You always have time to follow up.

Landing lag of tiny gunner:

nair: 14
fair: 9
bair: 14
uair: 18
dair: 22

Charge shot has 6 frames less ending lag than Samus' charge shot.
Missiles have much less lag and can even be used point blank on shields just about.

14% frame 8 dtilt
5 frame utilt, combos into itself for tiny miis and can kill at high %.
Jab is a little slow at 5 frames, but it has good range.

All Miis have good grabs. Tiny gunner can combo dthrow to nair (lol) at low % and dthrow to uair around the middle high %.

Aerials are overall a bit sluggish with a 10 frame fair, 8 frame nair, and 9 frame bair. Usable considering their range, but a good projectiles character shouldn't have awesome frame data everywhere. Only dair is really bad.

I feel that you have too little knowledge to really form any opinions on him.

Problem with Tiny miis is that smashes are not very reliable. 1/4 height miis have much more reliable smashes. However, buffs to uair, cannon uppercut, and specials make tiny gunner a lot more usable. When the smashes do land, they're quite powerful. Cannon uppercut can kill reliably now, too. Problem is that the players don't go for the slightly more risky option a lot of the times.

 

[Ikes]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

 

[Ghostbone]

Mario combos off of u-throw/d-throw and sometimes even f-throw.

You're also describing preprepreprepre-patch Diddy, so yea it was pretty OP.

 

[Kaladin]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

My character, BowJow, lacks throw combos. I've always said that I'd make Bthrow his combo throw just for the hell of it. Bair strings? I like the idea of having distinctive directional options for combos off your throws.

 

[Ffamran]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

Uh... Falco? There's a reason why people call Falco's U-throw a Melee Fox U-throw. Hell, even Fox can do this, but his is more of positional... Now that I think of it, Ike, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Greninja, Link, Toon Link, Charizard, Mewtwo, Diddy, Sonic, and Samus all have this. I remember some Sheik players using U-throw to Uair, but either I remembered wrong or they found D-throw to be more useful.

 

[biribiri]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

So Greninja after this patch? D-throw leads into followups and U-throw does while also killing with rage.

 

[Ikes]

Falco and Greninja eh?

How does falco play? I've wanted to get into him but I never found a good playstyle that I could work with. How should I be playing him? This comes from a Toon Link/Wario main.

 

[|RK|]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

Lucario, a little bit. Uthrow to uair and F-Throw to Fair. No real kill options from it, tho.

 

[⑨ball]

i want a character with two combo options

dthrow for forwards facing options and uthrow for upwards options/KO setups

maybe it'd be OP but idc

Diddy, Ike, Mario, Sonic*, Falco, Marcina, Charizard, MK*, Kirby*, Lucas, Gunner*, Olimar, ROB, Roy

Probably missing some, but iirc everyone listed has either a combo dthrow and killing uthrow or both combo with late kill percents.

*Not sure what percentages star warriors uthrow kills at, but having those uthrows that jump onto platforms can help lower the expected ceiling.

Sonic's dthrow and uthrow are more setups than anything, but serve their purpose well enough.

I don't think Gunner's uthrow ever combos into anything, but uair has such long lasting active frames it may as well.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's Dthrow combos and Fthrow can early on, and then Fthrow and Uthrow KO with decent positioning.