• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Alright everyone! So I sat down and went over a ton of data and collected numbers to do something kind of special: A Power Rankings "Tier List".

Snip

So, if you wanted to look at characters based on results in a really unique way, here's something cool for you. Obviously this doesn't exactly show character viability, but it shows some other interesting stuff (characters getting used at a high level and succeeding often, characters getting repped often, etc.)

Anyone gain some cool insights from this?
Actually, this is super interesting. Would it be possible to include the numbers with it? Ganon, of course, is the obvious wtf, as is Palutena. It does tell me that despite Ganon being actually hard to use at a higher level, he is having some results. Yoshi having such positive results actually surprises me and makes me rethink my Good Theory/Good Results spreadsheet.

It would be interesting to see how much of this is impacted by number of players for each character against quality of result given.
 

HFlash

Future Physician and Sm4sher
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
620
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
HFlash
Yes, 100% agreed with this man. This is exactly how the top 5 should look if you take theory, tournament performance and mtchups into account and put aside personal experience and bias. My personal order would be Sheik > ZSS > Fox / Pika > Diddy in the customless meta but regardless of the order I don't really see how any of those characters' place in top 5 is up to debate.



So how does any of this apply to Yoshi? Nobody except me hypes Yoshi - almost everybody just parrots the some old "Yoshi is overrated" or "Yoshi is bad in neutral" nonsense. How can a character that everybody calls overrated by actually ... you know ... overrated? Yoshi isn't overrated at all ... hardly anybody even knows what this character can do .... including the so-called "good" Yoshi players.

:059:
As far as the top 5, it's a tough sell for Fox, at least for me. Rosalina's strong zoning game, safe practical over the top kills, results, (albeit mostly Dabuz, but still) and not having to really do anything committed to net kills/get percent puts imo her a step over Fox.

Also as far as Yoshi is concerned, his big thing is that

1) he doesn't have any good safe throws, think the risk that ZSS has with her whiffed throws and Marth's throw follow up options, so staying in shield is pretty strong vs the Lizard.

2) aside from jab to usmash (which isn't super consistent) he doesn't have any safe reliable kill options. This is a problem I've actually gone to the Yoshi boards for further insight and they seem to be stumped as to how to ameliorate the situation. Whereas, Luigi has more good kill options than you can count on your right hand (including the recently patched in dtilt tilt to usmash). Thanks Sakurai.

Not to knock Fox off, but at least for now, he belongs in top 10, not 5.
 
Last edited:

SpottedCerberus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
325
Yes, 100% agreed with this man. This is exactly how the top 5 should look if you take theory, tournament performance and mtchups into account and put aside personal experience and bias. My personal order would be Sheik > ZSS > Fox / Pika > Diddy in the customless meta but regardless of the order I don't really see how any of those characters' place in top 5 is up to debate.



So how does any of this apply to Yoshi? Nobody except me hypes Yoshi - almost everybody just parrots the some old "Yoshi is overrated" or "Yoshi is bad in neutral" nonsense. How can a character that everybody calls overrated by actually ... you know ... overrated? Yoshi isn't overrated at all ... hardly anybody even knows what this character can do .... including the so-called "good" Yoshi players.

:059:
Just look at the OP of this thread for proof that Yoshi is rated very highly. He's seen as a bigger threat than Diddy, apparently.

Anyway, Yoshi has some great tools and attributes, but this doesn't necessarily add up to a great character.

He has no grab game. His grab is high risk and low reward. Seriously, no kill throws and no combos. And his command grab is slow as hell.

His recovery can go tragically wrong.

His kill options aren't that great. He has a lot of moves that can kill, but he struggles to reliably set-up into them.

His eggs can just be power-shielded. It's not like Luigi where shielding might get you grabbed. What's the worst that'll happen? Shielding is very effective against Yoshi as long as you're careful. He doesn't have much of a way around it. D-air and down b are both punishable.

Speaking of shielding, Yoshi apparently has the worst shield in the game because it takes him slightly longer to put it up and to drop it.

His side-b is one of the most useless moves in the game.

Also, his roll is just awful. It's not Samus-bad, but it's pretty bad. Not that it matters much. Just saying.

Yoshi's good. But not that good. It's true that we don't know what he can do. But we do know a lot of what he can't do. And that's enough.
 
Last edited:

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
As far as the top 5, it's a tough sell for Fox, at least for me. Rosalina's strong zoning game, safe practical over the top kills, results, (albeit mostly Dabuz, but still) and not having to really do anything committed to net kills/get percent puts imo her a step over Fox.
Rosalina players consistently lose to Sheik and ZSS, Fox plyers go consistently even with them. Without having a player of dabuz' caliber Fox has just as good - if not better - results than her, especially once you start looking beyond the US border.

Rosalina can randomly start to struggle against non-high tiers, Fox pretty much has the entire roster on lock, once you're below like Luigi/Falcon/Villager level there isn't much left that could pose a struggle for Fox. If anything you could argue that Rosalina should be above Diddy [via tournament results] or Pikachu [via ESAM being an outlier]. But Fox has such a broad playerbase who all bring in such consistently strong results that it's hard to call any character except Sheik and ZSS straight up superior to him. You have to make quite some couple of twist to knock Fox out of top 5, I personally think he's top 3 ost likely.

Just look at the OP of this thread for proof that Yoshi is rated very highly. He's seen as a bigger threat than Diddy, apparently.
I dunno what's up with that either, for all it's worth. I think that's just top players being ******** and knee-jerk dumping Diddy somewhere lower than he should be via overrating his nerfs.

Plus I don't think the list in the OP should be given a lot of attention to begin with. It's kind of a joke imo.

Edit: Now that I look at it I realize that Yoshi isn't even that high on the list. Sure, he's being placed on the same level as Sheik [which is obviously wrong] but 10th place doesn't sound awfully high - not a lot higher where a lot of the "Yoshi is overrated"-advokates tend to place him. It's more a matter of Diddy being placed unreasonably low on that list.


:059:
 
Last edited:

SpottedCerberus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
325
As far as the top 5, it's a tough sell for Fox, at least for me. Rosalina's strong zoning game, safe practical over the top kills, results, (albeit mostly Dabuz, but still) and not having to really do anything committed to net kills/get percent puts imo her a step over Fox.

Also as far as Yoshi is concerned, his big thing is that

1) he doesn't have any good safe throws, think the risk that ZSS has with her whiffed throws and Marth's throw follow up options, so staying in shield is pretty strong vs the Lizard.

2) aside from jab to usmash (which isn't super consistent) he doesn't have any safe reliable kill options. This is a problem I've actually gone to the Yoshi boards for further insight and they seem to be stumped as to how to ameliorate the situation. Whereas, Luigi has more good kill options than you can count on your right hand (including the recently patched in dtilt tilt to usmash). Thanks Sakurai.

Not to knock Fox off, but at least for now, he belongs in top 10, not 5.
Fox has a much more solid MU spread than Rosa. It's a lot harder to pinpoint his weaknesses. Rosalina isn't that great. Dabuz is, and so he can make her look a lot better than she is. Even her MU against Ness is overblown. A lot of that is just psychological at this point.
:4sheik::4zss::4fox::4pikachu::4diddy:

That's the top 5 imo. I think it's supported by results except, perhaps, in the case of Pikachu. But Fox is top 3 until Pikachu proves otherwise.
 
Last edited:

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
Well from my perspective I won't say those 5 are the top 5 now and forever. What I will say is id be surprised, barring significant nerfs, to see them outside the general top tier.

We can build some connections here based on traits we see are successful. For instance in Melee strong mobility is king. In brawl it was spacing tools. Smash 4 we see mobility is very important, long combo strings, and perhaps a projectile or other decent spacing tool for good measure.

This doesn't exclude others from being great but they have to carve out a different niche. For instance Jiggs/peach in Melee acting as an impenetrable fortress, or Wario in brawl dancing around his opponents. You even have characters like brawl diddy who didn't have the degree of snake/olimar/MK spacing tools but could make use of his tools (bananas) in a unique way to essentially do the same thing.

Part of this includes growth potential. Characters like fox don't have the raw combos of other characters, but as players become more efficient can extend them for a very long time. Improvement in uses with ground mobility I expect will greatly benefit pika and fox (in particular) and the other big 5 more then other characters.

If the meta shifts and we begin to see that mobility maybe isn't so important or spacing tools become more significant in relation to other traits, then characters like Rosalina and mario perhaps fit more smoothly into top tier. But for now they'll have to carve their own niche against the more predominant meta.

Meta: :4sheik::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4diddy::4zss:
Partial meta::4mario::4falcon::4greninja:
Anti meta 1::4marth::rosalina::4villager:
Anti meta 2::4dk::4bowser::4ganondorf:
Etc.

I know anti-met usually means something that counters the meta, you can still look at it that way and then judge its ability to succeed
 
Last edited:

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Meta meta meta omg I'm having horrid visions now of meeting new players at tournaments and they say **** like

"I main need a MK secondary to counter the meta"
"I main fox because hes really meta"
"Falcon fits my meta better than any other character"
"No johns, get meta scrub"
 
Last edited:

Tobi_Whatever

あんたバカァ~!?
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Messages
2,647
Location
Germany
NNID
Tobi_whatever
Meta meta meta omg I'm having horrid visions now of meeting new players at tournaments and they say **** like

"I main need a MK secondary to counter the meta"
"I main fox because hes really meta"
"Falcon fits my meta better than any other character"
"No johns, get meta scrub"
Just beat them senseless (not in real life, silly) and they will reconsider.
 
Last edited:

Balgorxz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
380
Location
Santiago, Chile
man sheik is getting better because it has like x10 more people developing her because they want to win tournaments, we have much less information on other characters, this is not related to buffs.
even if sheik gets another -1 frame nerf next patch she is still getting better because lazy people will just take the effort of other people developing her for faster results.
pikachu,mk and mario got some little development by good players and they jumped on the "tier list" right away, instead of complaining about sheik just develop your own character, it's like a forced buff.
 

RedBeefBaron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
321
Location
Boston, MA
NNID
Redbeefbaron
Yoshi has a ranged command grab that can lead to big damage or a kill so shielding isn't completely free against him.

Power shielding eggs is harder than many projectiles because of how they can be thrown differently, and because they don't have to connect for the explosion to hit. He can combo and kill off of an egg confirm.

His shield never gets smaller, so he can't be shield poked.

His recovery can go terribly wrong, much like Ike and Rosalina, but this usually happens when the player is bad at recovering. His double jump is armored.

His aerial mobility is slightly ridiculous for his weight. There was one guy actually doing good b reverse command grabs and such at evo and d1 just about **** a brick.

He does have his issues, but he has a lot of great attributes in one package. He is both overrated by many and underrated by many at this point in time.
 
Last edited:

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
Meta meta meta omg I'm having horrid visions now of meeting new players at tournaments and they say **** like

"I main need a MK secondary to counter the meta"
"I main fox because hes really meta"
"Falcon fits my meta better than any other character"
"No johns, get meta scrub"
And @ Browny Browny would have not gone crazy if we had not used Tier system.

But seriously only thing that Tier list brings is Tier *very naughty world*ing.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
pikachu,mk and mario got some little development by good players and they jumped on the "tier list" right away, instead of complaining about sheik just develop your own character, it's like a forced buff.
For all we know pikachu,mk and mario users could've been developing all along, even during the circle **** that comes like a plague every time they do something. But they choose not to make youtube videos for everyone to see, or come on to this thread and blurt it out.

Same goes for other characters as well, where's Ryu at? Dunno cause they're doing their own thing quietly.
 

L7 Zero Cool

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
12
Are you guys taking into account customs or are they being phased out? I ask so I know whether to practice with my friends with them on or off.

For my character(Ike) it makes a huge difference in viability.
 

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
Are you guys taking into account customs or are they being phased out? I ask so I know whether to practice with my friends with them on or off.

For my character(Ike) it makes a huge difference in viability.
I would not say huge difference. Only custom which is a bit better than vanilla one on Ike is CC (=Close Combat which removes QD's issue with shields), but it does not make Ike any better (or the difference is very small).
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
I would not say huge difference. Only custom which is a bit better than vanilla one on Ike is CC (=Close Combat which removes QD's issue with shields), but it does not make Ike any better (or the difference is very small).
That's not exactly true, though it is not longer as straight forwards as it was before.

With Eruption and its customs, Eruption is the one that hits the lowest for edgeguarding. Tempest has the highest potential and can be used for recovery aid/off stage gimping. Furious Eruption still has the largest hitbox by a decent amount but is the least likely to be used. Generally you pick Eruption or Tempest.

Quick Draw is certainly better after the buff, but CC got the same quicker start up benefit. But now its a question of "Do you want better recovery (QD) or the ability to stuff projectiles and shields (CC) in this MU?"

Aether is in a place where all three options are perfectly valid. Aether has the most vertical reach and is the most reliable in terms of getting damage with it. Aether Drive allows Ike to recover diagonally and has the highest potential damage, but it pretty hard to sweet spot and creates a small deadzone right underneath the stage. Aether Wave is the fastest (so arguably the safest), has extra super armour and a projectile on landing, but has the smallest recovery range. This one is completely up to player preference.

With Counter, after the buff things got less easy to decide on. Counter is counter, but now Ike's KBG on Counter is higher than Marth/Lucina's. This also applies to Smash Counter which is a lot less safe but is now extremely deadly. Paralyzing Counter is still free damage/KO in the right situations.

Ike does improve a noticeable amount with customs, but now its more because of the flexibility to improve match ups rather than straight upgrades across the board.
 

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
man sheik is getting better because it has like x10 more people developing her because they want to win tournaments, we have much less information on other characters, this is not related to buffs.
even if sheik gets another -1 frame nerf next patch she is still getting better because lazy people will just take the effort of other people developing her for faster results.
pikachu,mk and mario got some little development by good players and they jumped on the "tier list" right away, instead of complaining about sheik just develop your own character, it's like a forced buff.
This is why we need to use that tier list smash Capps shared. Makes things look better for others.
 

L7 Zero Cool

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
12
I would not say huge difference. Only custom which is a bit better than vanilla one on Ike is CC (=Close Combat which removes QD's issue with shields), but it does not make Ike any better (or the difference is very small).
Thanks for the rundown Routa and @ Nidtendofreak Nidtendofreak

I'm currently using furious eruption, aether drive, close combat and smash counter. I've been using this set up for months, so I definitely want to know what the trend is looking like for the tourney scene so if I have to revert to no customs I can get back to that.
 

Blobface

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,283
Location
Labbing U-Tilt followups with Ganondorf
NNID
everyone1 (Bob)
3DS FC
3454-0482-6740
It's worth mentioning that, AFAIK, not a single Ganon main has actually gone to any of the national tournaments, APEX, CEO, or EVO. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point, all Ganon needs is for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina to get well-placed nerfs and he'll be all set for world domination.
 
Last edited:

NachoOfCheese

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
981
Location
Uncharted Island
NNID
NachoOfCheese
It's worth mentioning that, AFAIK, not a single Ganon main has actually gone to any of the national tournaments, APEX, CEO, or EVO. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point, all Ganon needs is for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina to get well-placed nerfs and he'll be all set for world domination.
Time to nerf Sheik's Dtilt again.
 

Antonykun

Hero of Many Faces
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
6,727
3DS FC
1049-0472-0051
It's worth mentioning that, AFAIK, not a single Ganon main has actually gone to any of the national tournaments, APEX, CEO, or EVO. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point, all Ganon needs is for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina to get well-placed nerfs and he'll be all set for world domination.
I think you may have forgotten about some one
oh she's not that special I guess
just one has the Master Sword in her house





:4villagerf:
 

Blobface

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,283
Location
Labbing U-Tilt followups with Ganondorf
NNID
everyone1 (Bob)
3DS FC
3454-0482-6740
I think you may have forgotten about some one
oh she's not that special I guess
just one has the Master Sword in her house





:4villagerf:
Villager isn't as bad as Sheik as, and well, there's not really much you could change about Villager to make her not horrible for Ganon. Unless slingshot is completely reworked somehow to not be height dependent Ganondorf's MANLY STATURE will always be his downfall in this matchup.
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
NNID
EquinoXYZ
It's worth mentioning that, AFAIK, not a single Ganon main has actually gone to any of the national tournaments, APEX, CEO, or EVO. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point, all Ganon needs is for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina to get well-placed nerfs and he'll be all set for world domination.
image.jpg

Then how will ganon avoid tragedies like this?
 

Antonykun

Hero of Many Faces
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
6,727
3DS FC
1049-0472-0051
Real talk though Theorycraft ganon will always be weaker than the real thing. In theory ganon needs one good read to get his notoriously ridiculous advantage, but most MU and Theorycraft ignore the mindgames aspect of Ganon
Ganon doesn't beat characters, he beats players
 

Mega-Spider

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
955
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
MegaSonic3
3DS FC
4124-5940-2103
Meta meta meta omg I'm having horrid visions now of meeting new players at tournaments and they say **** like

"I main need a MK secondary to counter the meta"
"I main fox because hes really meta"
"Falcon fits my meta better than any other character"
"No johns, get meta scrub"
Man, my **** hurts just reading that. :/
The only thing I want to see in tournament play is more variety of characters, but knowing that some characters like Mega Man are still having their meta game developed, unless more patches buffs the lower tier characters and nerfs the higher tier characters, we're going to see the same characters in tournaments, and that gets boring after a while.
It's why I don't watch Melee tournaments. Please don't kill me.
 
Last edited:

Swaggy-G

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
144
It's actually been awhile that he plays Greninja, but he used to play PacMan and Falcon in his serious matches. I think he felt like he need to find something against ZSS as she becomes more and more popular in France. But his choices created some other vocation, so we have now 3 greninja (mostly secondaries though) in our scene.
French tier list should look like this now
:4sheik:
:4pikachu::4falcon::4ness:
:4wario::4diddy::4pacman::4greninja::4zss::4sonic::4shulk::rosalina::4mario::4luigi:

We don't believe in Fox
Didn't know Shulk is considered viable in France. Are they doing something there that's different than here? Could you also provide some matches?
 

BlueBirdE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
252
Whats everyones thoughts on Mii gunner after the patch? I havent seen much information on this mii. Does he/she have any niche use or some viability along with another character?
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
14,009
Location
The land that never Snows
NNID
SinisterSlush
His eggs can just be power-shielded. It's not like Luigi where shielding might get you grabbed. What's the worst that'll happen? Shielding is very effective against Yoshi as long as you're careful. He doesn't have much of a way around it. D-air and down b are both punishable.
This is one of the main points people tend to throw around once they talk about Yoshi. HIS EGGS ARE GODLIKE.
But then you realize even if you shield it, what can Yoshi do compared to other characters that force you to shield like Luigi or sheik? Grab you and get a few pummels off and 7 measly percent from a f/bthrow? (Pummels included maybe 12ish%?)
C'mon...

Speaking of shielding, Yoshi apparently has the worst shield in the game because it takes him slightly longer to put it up and to drop it.
This is not true thankfully, but because they gave him OoS options finally, Nintendo didn't think that was fair and made him unable to platform drop now :^)

Also, his roll is just awful. It's not Samus-bad, but it's pretty bad. Not that it matters much. Just saying.
If I remember correctly, they're pretty close in terms of rolls. Like 2-7 frames close I think.
Yoshi has a ranged command grab that can lead to big damage or a kill so shielding isn't completely free against him.
"Yoshi has a ranged 21 frame command grab that gives the opponent 10+ frames of invincibility when they pop out"
Gotta remember those other points mang.

Power shielding eggs is harder than many projectiles because of how they can be thrown differently, and because they don't have to connect for the explosion to hit. He can combo and kill off of an egg confirm.
Pretty sure power shielding eggs is easier than dealing with luma shot or Needles.

His shield never gets smaller, so he can't be shield poked.
Technically Since Melee, he can be shield poked if he's on a platform since the bottom part of his shoes stick out, but yeah he shouldn't be shielding long on a platform so kinda unpokeable lol

His recovery can go terribly wrong, much like Ike and Rosalina, but this usually happens when the player is bad at recovering. His double jump is armored.
Difference between Yoshi and those two examples is they can keep using their Side-b or UpB if they're whacked away (rosalina was a bad example tho, it goes so far anyways)
Yoshi cannot and only gets 2 usable egg toss jumps compared to the 5 he had in Brawl.

His Double jump is also heavy armor, knockback based. If you throw out any meaty move during his DJ if he's past 40ish%, it's donezo.

His aerial mobility is slightly ridiculous for his weight. There was one guy actually doing good b reverse command grabs and such at evo and d1 just about **** a brick.
D1 craps a brick everytime something happens in any game that isn't melee since he doesn't understand it while yelling DESTRUCTION

He does have his issues, but he has a lot of great attributes in one package. He is both overrated by many and underrated by many at this point in time.
As I said in another thread, he has a lot of decent options that doesn't link to anything good.
 
Last edited:

Zelder

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
477
Location
(location)
Some day a legendary Gunner player will arrive. They won't win tournaments, per se, but they will play Gunner optimally, which will drive their opponents up the wall until they're dead from a coronary.

I'm glad that Gunner isn't popular.
 

Kaladin

Stormblessed
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
1,167
Location
Earth
NNID
Toobu_me
Some day a legendary Gunner player will arrive. They won't win tournaments, per se, but they will play Gunner optimally, which will drive their opponents up the wall until they're dead from a coronary.

I'm glad that Gunner isn't popular.
From what I can see, can't gunner play be described by saying that for at least 60% of the time, the grenades will be as stale as possible? I've only seen one or two tourney matches with a gunner...
 

Mega-Spider

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
955
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
MegaSonic3
3DS FC
4124-5940-2103
Mii Gunner... meh. Not big on them, and I was disappointed with it since it was the Mii I was looking forward to the most. At least I have a MegaMan.EXE costume, so my dream of playing him in Smash Bros has happened in some way. :p
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
man sheik is getting better because it has like x10 more people developing her because they want to win tournaments, we have much less information on other characters, this is not related to buffs.
even if sheik gets another -1 frame nerf next patch she is still getting better because lazy people will just take the effort of other people developing her for faster results.
pikachu,mk and mario got some little development by good players and they jumped on the "tier list" right away, instead of complaining about sheik just develop your own character, it's like a forced buff.
Marth has more development then any other board only rivaled by Sheik, Pac-man and Greninja. And he wasnt doing much till the patches besides winning locals.

So dont say its JUST because alot of people are developing her meta.

Tiers are actually a thing.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Well from my perspective I won't say those 5 are the top 5 now and forever. What I will say is id be surprised, barring significant nerfs, to see them outside the general top tier.

We can build some connections here based on traits we see are successful. For instance in Melee strong mobility is king. In brawl it was spacing tools. Smash 4 we see mobility is very important, long combo strings, and perhaps a projectile or other decent spacing tool for good measure.

This doesn't exclude others from being great but they have to carve out a different niche. For instance Jiggs/peach in Melee acting as an impenetrable fortress, or Wario in brawl dancing around his opponents. You even have characters like brawl diddy who didn't have the degree of snake/olimar/MK spacing tools but could make use of his tools (bananas) in a unique way to essentially do the same thing.

Part of this includes growth potential. Characters like fox don't have the raw combos of other characters, but as players become more efficient can extend them for a very long time. Improvement in uses with ground mobility I expect will greatly benefit pika and fox (in particular) and the other big 5 more then other characters.

If the meta shifts and we begin to see that mobility maybe isn't so important or spacing tools become more significant in relation to other traits, then characters like Rosalina and mario perhaps fit more smoothly into top tier. But for now they'll have to carve their own niche against the more predominant meta.

Meta: :4sheik::4pikachu::4fox::4metaknight::4diddy::4zss:
Partial meta::4mario::4falcon::4greninja:
Anti meta 1::4marth::rosalina::4villager:
Anti meta 2::4dk::4bowser::4ganondorf:
Etc.

I know anti-met usually means something that counters the meta, you can still look at it that way and then judge its ability to succeed
Interesting post, curious as to why Greninja made it to your partial meta tier?
 

HFlash

Future Physician and Sm4sher
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
620
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
HFlash
Warning Received
At this point, all Ganon needs is for Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina to get well-placed nerfs and he'll be all set for world domination.
OR..... we can have other characters buffed. Shiek may be the best character in the game atm, but why stale the meta game by limiting what she can do and instead, increase the range of possibilities and options for other characters. I would want to see more Shulk/Link/Marth/Ike treatments across the board instead of Shiek getting nerfed. Starting with :4samus:.

Edit: Can someone give me an explanation why :4falcon: is getting consistent nerfs****? He isn't top 10, isn't getting alot of results, AND BRINGS THE HYPE (shout outs to Fatality bringing the hype during top 8 @ SmashCon.

Edit Edit: Meant to type nerf not results.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom