Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[wm1026]

Your first sentences is about human error, that's not Yoshi's fault.
Second, the command grab is more than a damage builder. If you can constantly read when your opponents gonna shield, that's free damage on the character AND player. That opponent will start to become controlled and you can land kill moves off good rhythm and awareness. There's more to it than meets the eye
I also wonder if you can time down b correctly when they come out.

Again it comes down to my whole point about it. You have to consistently get a read to hit them with it then you have to read what they will do when they pop out of the egg. Also the down B thing won't usually work. The opponent is invincible as soon as they pop out of the egg for a few frames and then on top of that they can act out of it immediately. Again it comes down to getting a read. To add some context I am not saying this is a bad move, but it isn't enough to allow him to beat shields reliably (at least not as much or as easily as the top tiers) which is his biggest problem that's keeping him from being top tier IMO.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Changing the subject, what high tiers does doc have a good/even matchup with?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Changing the subject, what high tiers does doc have a good/even matchup with?

this question is best answered in the doc boards, and even thrn, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Changing the subject, what high tiers does doc have a good/even matchup with?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any.

An alternative question that might lead to similar results would be, "Who does [regular] Mario beat by a significant margin in the top/high tier?"

 

[Nobie]

There needs to be a full explanation of neutral so people Don't constantly use the term to suit their own specific gripes.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yoshi quite honestly isn't the best character in the world. Yeah he has good tools but it isn't enough to beat other characters like Sheik, Fox or ZSS. He could use more combos or more damage. His grab is just plain bad. Even worse than Lucas. I do know what Yoshi is capable of and what are his weaknesses because I used to main him too.

 

[Ffamran]

There needs to be a full explanation of neutral so people Don't constantly use the term to suit their own specific gripes.

Emblem Lord has his guide on it: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-traps-a-primer-for-gameplay-concepts.380200/. Left in advantage and disadvantage just because. shoryuken.com probably has a definition of it

The Three States of Gameplay

At any given moment in ANY fighting game, the fight will be in one of three states. I will go over each and talk about the options available to you in each one. Momentum is constantly shifting and true mastery of this game will require you to understand these three states and how your options are affected in each.

The Three States of Gameplay

At any given moment in ANY fighting game, the fight will be in one of three states. I will go over each and talk about the options available to you in each one. Momentum is constantly shifting and true mastery of this game will require you to understand these three states and how your options are affected in each.

The Neutral State

The most common state. In this state all of your options are available to you. You can do as you please. You can walk, roll, jump, smash or what have you. It's also the most important state in the game because what you do in this state will decide how often you end up in the other two states which WILL decide how often you WRECK FOOLS and how often you get your butt handed to you on a silver platter. As I said before, in this state you can do as you please, but that doesn't mean you should. This state is really about being intelligent and testing the waters. Some things to consider while you are in this state is what your good options are. Do you have safe pokes that allow you to hit a shield without being punished? What are your mobility options? How do you deal with projectiles? When someone says such and such character is good at neutral, they are saying that character has alot of versatile tools that let them deal with a variety of situations. Pit is a great example. Solid pokes. Decent kill moves, SH aerials that finish before he lands. He has a projectile as well and even a forward rushing move with super armor with Upperdash Arm. Characters that are said to be weak in neutral are those that lack solid tools to impose their will. They usually have poor pokes and their attacks have alot of recovery which means they "commit" to their attacks, thus they require hard reads. Mastery of your options at neutral shows a strong command of how the game flows and how to establish dominance.

The State of Advantage

This is when one person has gained control over the other and now has momentum. The most obvious example of this is when one character has another in a combo. Clearly the aggressor has the advantage. But having the advantage can be much more subtle than that and it often is. Being at an advantage can be as simple as creating a situation where your opponent has to fight different or on your terms. You now control the pace of the match and your opponent must figure out a way to deal with that. Characters that can hit this state with a fair amount of ease are of course, the top tier characters. Rosalina is a strong example thanks to Luma. Luma's existence alone creates this state because her opponent has to figure out a way to deal with her. When you have advantage you want to maintain that advantage as long as possible. This usually means transitioning into a trap situation, but more on that later. Also it's important to not do anything that puts you into disadvantage. If you can't maintain advantage for w/e reason, let the fight reset to neutral. Better then getting overzealous and losing complete control right?

Just so we are clear, there are multiple states of advantage. I will list them. When your opponent is in a combo, when your opponent is high in the air or has been put into the air by you, when your opponent is on the ledge, when your opponent is lying on the ground and when your opponent is off the stage. Knowing your options and what your opponents options are in each situation is pivotal for staying in control and keeping your advantage going. And again, if your opponent manages to get out of your control, don't be reckless and put yourself in unnecessary danger to regain your control. You need to let the situation go back to neutral because that's alot better then being put at disadvantage which I will talk about next.


The State of Disadvantage

This state is the opposite of being at advantage. When one player is at advantage the other is at disadvantage. This is the state you don't want to be in and the state you will find yourself in the most when you first start out. Get used to it and know how to get out of it. The key to dealing with this state is just like the other states. Knowing your options. When you are at disadvantage you still have plenty of options. If you are on the ledge you can roll, get up, get up attack, ledge hop attack, ledge jump and your character may have character specific options like special moves that are useful in that scenario. If you are being comboed/attacked you can use DI to try to get out of the combo or maneuver yourself farther away so you can regain your footing. There are options in EVERY scenario and you must be able to think fast and act quickly to take control of the match and get advantage/back to neutral. Otherwise you'll get rocked. This different states of disadvantage are the inverse of the states of advantage. Basically w/e state of advantage the aggressor is in, the defender is the one in the same state only he is the one dealing with being under the control of the one who has advantage. When Luma is killed, Rosalina is now at disadvantage. Make her FEEL it.

Options will change according to how close you are to your opponent and what situation you are in. As always eliminate risky options that will get you killed easily. Go with what is safe and effective. If you are in the air then airdodging and fast falling to get to the ground quickly should be at the forefront of your mind. And as always, try not to be reckless about it. If you are lying on the ground and your opponent is shielding, do you really think it's a good idea to do a get up attack so your opponent can block it and then you get your face rearranged? Of course it's not a good idea, but I see it in real tournament matches and tournament vids all the time. Remember...just think smart and act on it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Changing the subject, what high tiers does doc have a good/even matchup with?

Doc does pretty well against Ness, Captain Falcon, and Diddy off the top of my head. Probably comes out slightly ahead against Mario simply because he gets more reward for walling and actually can gimp Mario while Mario's tools for edgeguarding in contrast are noticeably worse.

I'd argue his matchup against Rosalina is probably underrated (because Jab cancel Up-B is a thing), but you almost never see that matchup.

 

[Emblem Lord]

From what I can gather, his only spacing move is his F-air, but it's F16...

I'm curious. How do you guys rank neutral? I always thought that if a character can force another to approach, the said projectile character wins neutral, but IDK.

The ability to exert ones will while denying the will of your opponent.

For example alot of characters can force CF to approach. But thats fine because CF is safe and fast. He has options and mobility to stay in control while avoiding his opponents control.

Samus "forced" CF to approach. ok. Did she accomplish anything though? Not really. CF has good neutral.

More like highly rewarding near braindead neutral but you get my point.

 

[Vipermoon]

Doc does pretty well against Ness, Captain Falcon, and Diddy off the top of my head. Probably comes out slightly ahead against Mario simply because he gets more reward for walling and actually can gimp Mario while Mario's tools for edgeguarding in contrast are noticeably worse.

I'd argue his matchup against Rosalina is probably underrated (because Jab cancel Up-B is a thing), but you almost never see that matchup.

How how how how does Doc beat Mario? Please explain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How how how how does Doc beat Mario? Please explain.

They have basically the same moves. Doc gets more reward for B-air/D-tilt walling and has Up-B out of shield to punish some of Mario's normally safe shield pressure with a move that kills. Doc also can trade with Mario's Up-B with D-air, spiking him for gimps, while Mario really only has N-air to edgeguard, which is far less likely to kill.

Also, the Japanese actually tried a Doc vs Mario side event. You can see for yourself who came out ahead.

 

[Wintropy]

Sorry to shunt the topic onto a different track, but I feel this warrants discussion.

Recently I've heard a lot of comments to the tune of "Lucas is objectively worse than Ness". A variety of factors are cited to support this notion, including:

- Poor grab game with a subpar reward, compared to Ness's reliable dash / pivot grab which sets up b-throw kills
- PKT2 isn't as useful a projectile as Ness's; PKT2 lacks true kill potential compared to Ness's
- Aerials are not as useful as Ness's (n-air is too slow to use as a shorthop move, f-air isn't a combo move)
- Smashes are too slow to be reliable, compared to Ness's quick disjoints
- F-smash isn't as strong a reflector as Ness's
- PK Fire isn't a grab combo setup and isn't as strong as Ness's

I'm keen to get feedback from people who, in all honesty, know a hell of a lot more than I do. My question is: is it fair to say that Lucas is just a "poor man's Ness", and by extension a poor character, or is it just baseless theorycrafting from a meta that's barely had a month's time to develop?

 

[Ffamran]

They have basically the same moves. Doc gets more reward for B-air/D-tilt walling and has Up-B out of shield to punish some of Mario's normally safe shield pressure with a move that kills. Doc also can trade with Mario's Up-B with D-air, spiking him for gimps, while Mario really only has N-air to edgeguard, which is far less likely to kill.

Also, the Japanese actually tried a Doc vs Mario side event. You can see for yourself who came out ahead.

Still, wouldn't a Mario vs. Dr. Mario MU be like... er... Ryu vs. Ken or Ryu vs. Evil Ryu? Street Fighter players, forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong.

 

[NairWizard]

If you think of advantage and disadvantage as a risk:reward ratio (what do you risk by taking a swing? -- your disadvantage -- vs. what do you gain by hitting? -- your advantage), then you can think of neutral as the likelihood of succeeding, i.e. getting rewarded rather than taking a penalty. We talk a lot about risk:reward as a ratio, but it's pretty meaningless without taking neutral into consideration.

For instance, let's take Sheik vs. Ganon and make up some numbers. Let's assume that if Sheik lands a single f-air at mid percent, her reward is 5% damage, and that if she misses, she takes 20% from some Meaty Ganon Attack #465. If we ignore knockback/positional advantage for the sake of simplicity, the risk:reward ratio here is 20:5, or 4:1. This seems very much in Ganon's favor, even though that notion strikes us as intuitively incorrect. How can that be?

The missing variable is how likely Sheik is to hit with her f-air vs. how likely she is to get punished for it. And that's all neutral is--how likely you are to get into advantage vs. how unlikely you are to get into disadvantage, which results from a combination of mobility, hitbox placement, and frame data. Sheik's mobility specs are so much better than Ganon's that she's much more likely to be in the optimal spacing for f-air than Ganon is to be in the optimal spacing to punish it (if he even can without a powershield), and the hitbox and frame data on f-air are so ridiculous that the likelihood of punishing it at most spacings, not just a single ideal spacing, is low.

So maybe Ganon gets 4x the reward that Sheik does in this hypothetical situation, but Sheik is probably at least 10x more likely to succeed with her attack than Ganon is to succeed with his counterattack. So the actual risk:reward ratio when you consider neutral is very much in Sheik's favor.

A move is good in neutral if you can use it in a way such that you are extremely unlikely to get punished for using it, and even better in neutral if there are a variety of such ways.

A character is good in neutral if the character has moves that are good in neutral, and the mobility to space these moves optimally.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

Remember the words attributed to Azen a long time ago, "Don't get hit." edit: k, it was Isai, not Azen, thanks @ migul

That's what neutral is. Not getting hit. Whether you achieve that goal by hitting your opponent before he hits you or whether you achieve that goal by running away doesn't matter. Whoever is better at not getting hit, is better in neutral. That's all.

 

[Vipermoon]

They have basically the same moves. Doc gets more reward for B-air/D-tilt walling and has Up-B out of shield to punish some of Mario's normally safe shield pressure with a move that kills. Doc also can trade with Mario's Up-B with D-air, spiking him for gimps, while Mario really only has N-air to edgeguard, which is far less likely to kill.

Also, the Japanese actually tried a Doc vs Mario side event. You can see for yourself who came out ahead.

Mario definitely gets more reward for Bair walling. Mario can do 2 in 1 SH and has 4 frames less landing lag and most of all AIR SPEED and ground speed to help him out.

Ground speed and especially air speed also help Mario is the combo department, the edgeguarding department, the recovery department, and the neutral department.

Dr. Mario's recovery so linear and bad (sometimes he can't he afford to air dodge without dying) that Mario gets free FLUUD gimps.

Mario's up B shouldn't be underestimated as Ally gets infinite mileage out of that move using things like Mario's higher jumps and air speed to extend combos with and kill with it.

If we assume top level (and assuming this is a stage spike situation) the Mario player should know the timing of Dr's Dair and should be teching. Furthermore, Mario's recovery isn't so bad that he can't switch things up and stall to avoid the Dair. He can even gimp Doc as he tries it.

It's honestly embarrasing how much worse Doc has it in this game. They'd be even if Mario had his Brawl air speed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario definitely gets more reward for Bair walling. Mario can do 2 in 1 SH and has 4 frames less landing lag and most of all AIR SPEED and ground speed to help him out.

Ground speed and especially air speed also help Mario is the combo department, the edgeguarding department, the recovery department, and the neutral department.

Dr. Mario's recovery so linear and bad (sometimes he can't he afford to air dodge without dying) that Mario gets free FLUUD gimps.

Mario's up B shouldn't be underestimated as Ally gets infinite mileage out of that move using things like Mario's higher jumps and air speed to extend combos with and kill with it.

If we assume top level (and assuming this is a stage spike situation) the Mario player should know the timing of Dr's Dair and should be teching. Furthermore, Mario's recovery isn't so bad that he can't switch things up and stall to avoid the Dair. He can even gimp Doc as he tries it.

It's honestly embarrasing how much worse Doc has it in this game. They'd be even if Mario had his Brawl air speed.

Mario getting two B-airs in one short hop is pretty minor and they don't combo except in super specific positions/percents.

The less landing lag is marginally helpful compared to a properly spaced autocancel. Mario does have more mobility, but he doesn't have more range than Doc. In footsies, Doc gets more reward, and also benefits from a lower short hop, making him less vulnerable to crouching. Worth keeping in mind not only is crouching good against Mario, their D-tilts shut down a lot of ground options, and Doc's D-tilt leads to more frame tight strings at low percents sooner than Mario's.

Mario's combos are kinda crap on Doc who can interrupt with his 3 frame N-air and Up-B, making Doc's higher general damage per hit more valuable (seriously, a B-air from Doc = a Mario combo). Also Mario can't edgeguard Doc or most characters with FLUDD. You're crazy if you think FLUDD is a remotely viable edgeguard tool in most matchups. Also Doc's recovery isn't that linear when you factor Tornado stalling.

Mario's Up-B also doesn't kill except at like 150% with 100% rage about two and a half jumps worth of height into the air.

Doc doesn't need to edgeguard Mario in a way that he can wall tech it. D-air spiking can't be teched because it doesn't send into tumble. Tornado can be spaced to send you away from the stage too. Mario does not have this luxury when edgeguarding Doc.

Doc isn't really outclassed by Mario when you factor Mario literally cannot kill you for ledge resetting or platform camping. Doc in contrast actually has very good options for KOing you in these positions.

 

[Smog Frog]

Sorry to shunt the topic onto a different track, but I feel this warrants discussion.

Recently I've heard a lot of comments to the tune of "Lucas is objectively worse than Ness". A variety of factors are cited to support this notion, including:

- Poor grab game with a subpar reward, compared to Ness's reliable dash / pivot grab which sets up b-throw kills
- PKT2 isn't as useful a projectile as Ness's; PKT2 lacks true kill potential compared to Ness's
- Aerials are not as useful as Ness's (n-air is too slow to use as a shorthop move, f-air isn't a combo move)
- Smashes are too slow to be reliable, compared to Ness's quick disjoints
- F-smash isn't as strong a reflector as Ness's
- PK Fire isn't a grab combo setup and isn't as strong as Ness's

I'm keen to get feedback from people who, in all honesty, know a hell of a lot more than I do. My question is: is it fair to say that Lucas is just a "poor man's Ness", and by extension a poor character, or is it just baseless theorycrafting from a meta that's barely had a month's time to develop?

its baseless theorycrafting. they're looking at the wrong way: as a clone when in reality he's nowhere near in terms of gameplay. they share...some move names, using a wooden object for an fsmash, using their head for uair...and a fast dtilt i guess??? pk fire is practically a completely different move from pk fire, they only share big startup lag and animation.
you use pk fire to shut down approaches and beat other moves(his pk fire has 2 hitboxes: the bolt itself which does 3 damage, and the fire burst that comes out that i'm sure is transcendent and does 6%). in general his pk fire allows him to keep up obnoxious spacing, and is better fit for his gameplan. you use pk fire to punish stuff. its that simple. its really good at it too. its a better fit for his gameplan than pk fire is. i'll admit that pk thunder for is straight up worse than . it has way too much end lag and there's nowhere near enough reward for landing it. it does however go farther than pk thunder(i'm talking / up b distances) and it cant be bodyblocked, making it better for recovery purposes. outside of that its alot worse. his aerials are good in their own way: you shouldnt compare them to another character's aerials. nair is a freakishly good stringing move(it can get upwards of 25% off just one of them) and it transitions almost seamlessly into his other aerials(dair is my preferred finisher; off a full nair string it can get nearly 40% and put them in a bad spot offstage). fair is a decent poke when sweetspotted and kills at later % near the ledge. uair is an okay-ish aerial: you can combo into it through a dthrow at kill %(this is known as the pk hoo hah), and... not much else really. it has atrocious aerial endlag. dair is a decent aerial: it does great damage(15% on all the hits?), is a f10 spike that catches airdodges guaranteed(even if its a weak spike i'll take it), and you can combo into it from a di read out of dthrow. its not the trainwreck everyone thought it was. bair is a weird move and i still dont know what to make of it. it's probably ok as you can combo into it and its good off a trump, but eh otherwise.

for his smashes, they're different and unique compared to . usmash is mad strong, is active for something like 30 frames, and has atrocious lag. its good at catching landings, much better than usmash. dsmash i find is a good move for catching spotdodges and covering the ledge, again different from . fsmash is better as a reflector than : mainly because its out quicker, f14 compared to the latters f22. its not fast by any means, but i can react to a projectile from mid stage and reflect it.

his grab is straight ass, i wont deny it. but his reward off it is well worth the risk for using it. with rage you can kill from anywhere on the stage at 130%, have a kill setup at 100% anywhere on the stage, and set up nasty combos. i will agree has the better throws and grab, but isnt terrible. its one of the better throw games imo. it may seem subpar in comparison to , but the reward is amazing compared to the rest of the cast.

tl;dr people are looking at the wrong way and should see him as his own character, not a clone or semiclone

 

[migul]

If you think of advantage and disadvantage as a risk:reward ratio (what do you risk by taking a swing? -- your disadvantage -- vs. what do you gain by hitting? -- your advantage), then you can think of neutral as the likelihood of succeeding, i.e. getting rewarded rather than taking a penalty. We talk a lot about risk:reward as a ratio, but it's pretty meaningless without taking neutral into consideration.

For instance, let's take Sheik vs. Ganon and make up some numbers. Let's assume that if Sheik lands a single f-air at mid percent, her reward is 5% damage, and that if she misses, she takes 20% from some Meaty Ganon Attack #465. If we ignore knockback/positional advantage for the sake of simplicity, the risk:reward ratio here is 20:5, or 4:1. This seems very much in Ganon's favor, even though that notion strikes us as intuitively incorrect. How can that be?

The missing variable is how likely Sheik is to hit with her f-air vs. how likely she is to get punished for it. And that's all neutral is--how likely you are to get into advantage vs. how unlikely you are to get into disadvantage, which results from a combination of mobility, hitbox placement, and frame data. Sheik's mobility specs are so much better than Ganon's that she's much more likely to be in the optimal spacing for f-air than Ganon is to be in the optimal spacing to punish it (if he even can without a powershield), and the hitbox and frame data on f-air are so ridiculous that the likelihood of punishing it at most spacings, not just a single ideal spacing, is low.

So maybe Ganon gets 4x the reward that Sheik does in this hypothetical situation, but Sheik is probably at least 10x more likely to succeed with her attack than Ganon is to succeed with his counterattack. So the actual risk:reward ratio when you consider neutral is very much in Sheik's favor.

A move is good in neutral if you can use it in a way such that you are extremely unlikely to get punished for using it, and even better in neutral if there are a variety of such ways.

A character is good in neutral if the character has moves that are good in neutral, and the mobility to space these moves optimally.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

Remember the words attributed to Azen a long time ago, "Don't get hit."

That's what neutral is. Not getting hit. Whether you achieve that goal by hitting your opponent before he hits you or whether you achieve that goal by running away doesn't matter. Whoever is better at not getting hit, is better in neutral. That's all.

That was Isai dude.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi quite honestly isn't the best character in the world. Yeah he has good tools but it isn't enough to beat other characters like Sheik, Fox or ZSS. He could use more combos or more damage. His grab is just plain bad. Even worse than Lucas. I do know what Yoshi is capable of and what are his weaknesses because I used to main him too.

Yoshi's damage output is fine, he just needs a better grab game a few kill setups and maybe gut a good chunk of the frames on his pivot grab.
His kill setups is basically pray an egg lands into Fair or whatever, people don't know they can airdodge or jump away after his Dthrow Uair attempts similar to half the characters in this game, Jab Usmash/Dsmash is super character dependent and % dependent, forgetting they have a shield button so all his vertical super obvious kill moves land, or just so bad they die to egg lay once they're past 100% lol

C'mon... didn't Shaya say not to do this? I sometimes wish Seagull didn't start this trend.

 

[Vipermoon]

Mario getting two B-airs in one short hop is pretty minor and they don't combo except in super specific positions/percents.

The less landing lag is marginally helpful compared to a properly spaced autocancel. Mario does have more mobility, but he doesn't have more range than Doc. In footsies, Doc gets more reward, and also benefits from a lower short hop, making him less vulnerable to crouching. Worth keeping in mind not only is crouching good against Mario, their D-tilts shut down a lot of ground options, and Doc's D-tilt leads to more frame tight strings at low percents sooner than Mario's.

Mario's combos are kinda crap on Doc who can interrupt with his 3 frame N-air and Up-B, making Doc's higher general damage per hit more valuable (seriously, a B-air from Doc = a Mario combo). Also Mario can't edgeguard Doc or most characters with FLUDD. You're crazy if you think FLUDD is a remotely viable edgeguard tool in most matchups. Also Doc's recovery isn't that linear when you factor Tornado stalling.

Mario's Up-B also doesn't kill except at like 150% with 100% rage about two and a half jumps worth of height into the air.

Doc doesn't need to edgeguard Mario in a way that he can wall tech it. D-air spiking can't be teched because it doesn't send into tumble. Tornado can be spaced to send you away from the stage too. Mario does not have this luxury when edgeguarding Doc.

Doc isn't really outclassed by Mario when you factor Mario literally cannot kill you for ledge resetting or platform camping. Doc in contrast actually has very good options for KOing you in these positions.

In a situation when Dr. Mario will barely make it on stage how in the world is dropping down with FLUUD not remotely viable? Of course it is. FLUUD is very good. Some Mario mains don't use it enough and none use it to it's full potential.

I think you are brushing aside the mobility differences. These differences makes Mario juggle Doc very effectively, these make Mario edgeguard Doc deep, these even make moves like Usmash and Fair (which are definitely better than Doc's versions, especially Usmash) even more effective. Doc's recovery is so bad, a strong, easy to sweetspot, spike like Mario's Fair isn't difficult to get. Doc won't be getting any Fairs on Mario unless the Mario player F'ed up and decided to air dodge Dthrow. Speaking of grabs and throws...Mario will be getting grabs more often than Doc and his Bthrow will kill earlier due to having more BKB. Even when it doesn't kill, you got Doc off-stage. Now continue the fight off-stage, see who wins.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yoshi's damage output is fine, he just needs a better grab game a few kill setups and maybe gut a good chunk of the frames on his pivot grab.
His kill setups is basically pray an egg lands into Fair or whatever, people don't know they can airdodge or jump away after his Dthrow Uair attempts similar to half the characters in this game, Jab Usmash/Dsmash is super character dependent and % dependent, forgetting they have a shield button so all his vertical super obvious kill moves land, or just so bad they die to egg lay once they're past 100% lol


C'mon... didn't Shaya say not to do this? I sometimes wish Seagull didn't start this trend.

I may do that with character icons, but I try not to say the characters names every sentence or my post would look ridiculous. People just suck at copying me.

 

[Smog Frog]

clicking an icon is easier than typing out the name

 

[FullMoon]

Because typing a name takes a lot of effort and concentration, obviously. Especially a 3 letter name like Pit.

 

[Locke 06]

clicking an icon is easier than typing out the name

That's... incredibly false. Unless you're... no. Why move your hand to the mouse when you don't have to?

Sheik's mobility specs are so much better than Ganon's that she's much more likely to be in the optimal spacing for f-air than Ganon is to be in the optimal spacing to punish it (if he even can without a powershield), and the hitbox and frame data on f-air are so ridiculous that the likelihood of punishing it at most spacings, not just a single ideal spacing, is low.

So maybe Ganon gets 4x the reward that Sheik does in this hypothetical situation, but Sheik is probably at least 10x more likely to succeed with her attack than Ganon is to succeed with his counterattack. So the actual risk:reward ratio when you consider neutral is very much in Sheik's favor.

A move is good in neutral if you can use it in a way such that you are extremely unlikely to get punished for using it, and even better in neutral if there are a variety of such ways.

A character is good in neutral if the character has moves that are good in neutral, and the mobility to space these moves optimally.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

This is a very offense oriented view of neutral. Part of the reason why Ganon's neutral is bad is because he doesn't have the options (OoS or otherwise) to deal with pressure. Anti-airs are important, as are counter-pokes.

A move is also good in neutral if you can use it in a way such that you can punish or challenge your opponent for pushing buttons.

A character is also good in neutral if the character has moves/mobility to mess with their opponents' optimal spacing/disrupt their offense.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the difference between say Yoshi vs Sheik and Ganon vs Sheik in neutral.

 

[Ffamran]

clicking an icon is easier than typing out the name

Yes, typing out "Roy", "Ryu", "Fox", "Ike, "Mario", or "Bowser Jr." is very difficult. We even shorten Zero Suit Samus as "ZSS" or "Zamus". Donkey Kong is already called DK, Wii Fit Trainer as WFT, and Dr. Mario is the Doc, Dr., or maybe someone calls him "Dario" or "Drario". Mr. Game & Watch is "GDubs", "Mr. G&W", or might as well call him "GW" and invoke some Metal Gear Solid reference. It's not that difficult to type them out. Even if we had some character called "Ultra Lord Starfighter Jonathan 'Johnny' Galaxy the Thirteenth Blue Special" we might as well be called "Johnny" instead of clicking an icon. Even his icon command would probably be ":johnny:".

... Why are we arguing about emote-usage again? >_>

Something different: are throw combos really that important? Some people make such a big deal about and sometimes inflate D-throw as the ultimate tool when some characters like Greninja, Mewtwo, and Falco don't get much off of their D-throws. Incidentally, both Greninja and Falco combo off of U-throw better at low percents while Mewtwo has U-throw for a kill throw. Then there's the whole issue where not a lot of characters combo off of other throws like F-throw which Fox players used to use and Sheik has for Bouncing Fish at low percent. Can't think of anyone with a B-throw combo other than PM Wolf, but that's a different game.

Other thing is that some characters might not be able to confirm or setup much off of throws, but they can setup and confirm with their moves. Case in point, Falco, Diddy, Samus, Zelda, and Ryu who setup a lot with their Dtilt, Diddy who as we all know gets mileage off of Banana Peel, and Sheik herself can setup with Ftilt, Dtilt, Fair, Uair, etc.

Throws for positioning are still good even if characters can't combo with them. Fox's throws aren't good for comboing, but they're good for positioning when his grab game is good. Some characters' throw combos aren't even guaranteed, but look like it such as Falco's, who past low percents, does not get any guarantees off of throws unlike Sheik who can 50/50 you with Uair and Vanish.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In a situation when Dr. Mario will barely make it on stage how in the world is dropping down with FLUUD not remotely viable? Of course it is. FLUUD is very good. Some Mario mains don't use it enough and none use it to it's full potential.

I think you are brushing aside the mobility differences. These differences makes Mario juggle Doc very effectively, these make Mario edgeguard Doc deep, these even make moves like Usmash and Fair (which are definitely better than Doc's versions, especially Usmash) even more effective. Doc's recovery is so bad, a strong, easy to sweetspot, spike like Mario's Fair isn't difficult to get. Doc won't be getting any Fairs on Mario unless the Mario player F'ed up and decided to air dodge Dthrow. Speaking of grabs and throws...Mario will be getting grabs more often than Doc and his Bthrow will kill earlier due to having more BKB. Even when it doesn't kill, you got Doc off-stage. Now continue the fight off-stage, see who wins.

FLUDD is 20 frames. It's not viable for edgeguarding anyone except like...Mac and Ness.

You're honestly delusional by saying "Doc's recovery is so bad". Like, good players DI, and Tornado stalling is a thing. Furthermore Mario is also completely screwed against Doc offstage if he doesn't DI well given D-air will beat or trade with Up-B and kill him.

Mario really shouldn't spike or FLUDD anyone competitively except in situations where anything else would have gimped. Meanwhile Doc actually has good edgeguard attacks like Tornado and D-air which can both challenge Mario's Up-B favorably. Your argument is going nowhere by suggesting Mario's F-air is a remotely good edgeguard tool. The only time Mario's F-air is remotely useful offstage is for stopping edgeguards.

Mario isn't getting that many grabs in this matchup compared to others when D-tilt stops a lot of grabs. Same goes the other way around, just Doc gets more reward from D-tilt/B-air walling either way. You're honestly overrating the mobility difference when their dashgrabs and DA technically have the same range, and neither of them really has good tools to approach past B-air/D-tilt walls. The reward difference in contrast is a big deal given they both want to effectively use the same tools.

 

[bc1910]

The actual throw you combo with doesn't really matter, it's just Dthrow is typically the combo throw so everyone talks about that.

Of those characters the only one who doesn't combo at all from throws is Mewtwo and he's rather bad. Dthrow or not, throw combos are pretty important.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The actual throw you combo with doesn't really matter, it's just Dthrow is typically the combo throw so everyone talks about that.

Of those characters the only one who doesn't combo at all from throws is Mewtwo and he's rather bad. Dthrow or not, throw combos are pretty important.

Of all the problems Mewtwo has, not having a good grab game isn't really one of them. Sure he'd definitely like a legitimate combo out of D-throw, but that change by itself wouldn't really make Mewtwo that much better, considering bigger problems like his size and physics.

So uh, it's kinda misleading to point to Mewtwo's lack of throw combos and citing him being bad.

 

[LancerStaff]

Neither is Pits.
However, every time you get a hit, eggs/arrows should be hitting or trapping your opponent afterwards and if not you got outplayed or tech flubbed and missed.
Throws don't combo into things like other characters but barely have any growth on them whatsoever? I wonder why that's the case

Tons of good moves that "aren't good" because they set up positionally better than they do frame advantage (dash attack, bair, etc).

Um... Pit's Fair outrages Marth's and SHFF autocancels, and has a lingering hitbox. Bair a little less range and doesn't linger but is a proper kill move if tippered. Actually, all his aerials SHFFAC, but it's a matter of how much. Dash Attack is safe on shield if spaced properly. Dash grab has tons of range too. It's not that Pit can't approach, it's just that he'd rather sit back and spam fullhop arrows when he can.

And I hope you aren't saying Pit can't combo with throws... Pit's Dthrow works just like Roy's, maybe better. Doesn't get near as much off obviously, but earlier on Dthrow > Dair > aerial (potentially another Dair depending on DI) is a true combo.

You weren't kidding when you said he's underused.

 

[Vipermoon]

FLUDD is 20 frames. It's not viable for edgeguarding anyone except like...Mac and Ness.

You're honestly delusional by saying "Doc's recovery is so bad". Like, good players DI, and Tornado stalling is a thing. Furthermore Mario is also completely screwed against Doc offstage if he doesn't DI well given D-air will beat or trade with Up-B and kill him.

Mario really shouldn't spike or FLUDD anyone competitively except in situations where anything else would have gimped. Meanwhile Doc actually has good edgeguard attacks like Tornado and D-air which can both challenge Mario's Up-B favorably. Your argument is going nowhere by suggesting Mario's F-air is a remotely good edgeguard tool. The only time Mario's F-air is remotely useful offstage is for stopping edgeguards.

Mario isn't getting that many grabs in this matchup compared to others when D-tilt stops a lot of grabs. Same goes the other way around, just Doc gets more reward from D-tilt/B-air walling either way. You're honestly overrating the mobility difference when their dashgrabs and DA technically have the same range, and neither of them really has good tools to approach past B-air/D-tilt walls. The reward difference in contrast is a big deal given they both want to effectively use the same tools.

First off, don't insult me. We're arguing a MU not each other. No need to use words like crazy and delusional or implying that I'm not a good player or that I don't know about/know how to DI.

Second, we'll agree to disagree. You say a vastly superior version of a character loses to the worse one. I say the vastly superior version wins.

 

[A2ZOMG]

First off, don't insult me. We're arguing a MU not each other. No need to use words like crazy and delusional or implying that I'm not a good player or that I don't know about/know how to DI.

Second, we'll agree to disagree. You say a vastly superior version of a character loses to the worse one. I say the vastly superior version wins.

Doc is slightly inferior, and has important niche strengths that Mario doesn't have.

Also, I can't help but be annoyed at your logical inconsistency. You're a MARTH MAIN benefiting from EL's wisdom and advice and you seem to demonstrate a failure to understand how trap situations work. It's the reason why Mario doesn't outclass Doc blatantly. Mario doesn't have many legitimate ways to trap you into kills when you refuse to pick certain options and you DI correctly. This is a huge deal especially on Battlefield. You thought Mac hated platform camping? Mario gets the GOLD MEDAL for getting screwed by platform camping when he's behind. Mac at least has Up-B. Mario can literally kill you with nothing except Shocking Cape and Explosive Jump Punch when you're on a platform.

You also just seem to blatantly just...ignore frame data. Mario F-air and FLUDD both have startups that exceed frame 15. You're not hitting a good player with those moves offstage period, unless they would have been gimped by anything else.

Note that I never even mentioned Doc F-air. Mario and Doc F-airs ARE BAD MOVES and shouldn't hit anyone.

 

[NairWizard]

This is a very offense oriented view of neutral. Part of the reason why Ganon's neutral is bad is because he doesn't have the options (OoS or otherwise) to deal with pressure. Anti-airs are important, as are counter-pokes.

A move is also good in neutral if you can use it in a way such that you can punish or challenge your opponent for pushing buttons.

A character is also good in neutral if the character has moves/mobility to mess with their opponents' optimal spacing/disrupt their offense.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the difference between say Yoshi vs Sheik and Ganon vs Sheik in neutral.

It's another way to look at it (or an example by which to illustrate it), but it's the same concept overall.

"Challenging your opponent for pushing a button" is a subset of
"using a move without getting punished."

Whether your opponent is sitting in shield blocking or using a hitbox to engage you is immaterial (just a detail, has no bearing on the concept).

In one case: Ganon is in shield. Sheik uses f-air. f-air is a good move in neutral--you can't punish Sheik for missing her f-air if she's spaced well against your shield.

In the other case: Ganon misses b-air. Fox uses dash attack to punish. dash attack is a good move in neutral--you can't punish Fox's dash if he's spaced close enough when you miss your move

They're different situations but the concept is fundamentally the same. Both cases illustrate ways of getting damage without getting hit, and the mobility of both characters enables them to be in a position to get that damage.

 

[meleebrawler]

its baseless theorycrafting. they're looking at the wrong way: as a clone when in reality he's nowhere near in terms of gameplay. they share...some move names, using a wooden object for an fsmash, using their head for uair...and a fast dtilt i guess??? pk fire is practically a completely different move from pk fire, they only share big startup lag and animation.
you use pk fire to shut down approaches and beat other moves(his pk fire has 2 hitboxes: the bolt itself which does 3 damage, and the fire burst that comes out that i'm sure is transcendent and does 6%). in general his pk fire allows him to keep up obnoxious spacing, and is better fit for his gameplan. you use pk fire to punish stuff. its that simple. its really good at it too. its a better fit for his gameplan than pk fire is. i'll admit that pk thunder for is straight up worse than . it has way too much end lag and there's nowhere near enough reward for landing it. it does however go farther than pk thunder(i'm talking / up b distances) and it cant be bodyblocked, making it better for recovery purposes. outside of that its alot worse. his aerials are good in their own way: you shouldnt compare them to another character's aerials. nair is a freakishly good stringing move(it can get upwards of 25% off just one of them) and it transitions almost seamlessly into his other aerials(dair is my preferred finisher; off a full nair string it can get nearly 40% and put them in a bad spot offstage). fair is a decent poke when sweetspotted and kills at later % near the ledge. uair is an okay-ish aerial: you can combo into it through a dthrow at kill %(this is known as the pk hoo hah), and... not much else really. it has atrocious aerial endlag. dair is a decent aerial: it does great damage(15% on all the hits?), is a f10 spike that catches airdodges guaranteed(even if its a weak spike i'll take it), and you can combo into it from a di read out of dthrow. its not the trainwreck everyone thought it was. bair is a weird move and i still dont know what to make of it. it's probably ok as you can combo into it and its good off a trump, but eh otherwise.

for his smashes, they're different and unique compared to . usmash is mad strong, is active for something like 30 frames, and has atrocious lag. its good at catching landings, much better than usmash. dsmash i find is a good move for catching spotdodges and covering the ledge, again different from . fsmash is better as a reflector than : mainly because its out quicker, f14 compared to the latters f22. its not fast by any means, but i can react to a projectile from mid stage and reflect it.

his grab is straight ***, i wont deny it. but his reward off it is well worth the risk for using it. with rage you can kill from anywhere on the stage at 130%, have a kill setup at 100% anywhere on the stage, and set up nasty combos. i will agree has the better throws and grab, but isnt terrible. its one of the better throw games imo. it may seem subpar in comparison to , but the reward is amazing compared to the rest of the cast.

tl;dr people are looking at the wrong way and should see him as his own character, not a clone or semiclone

Should also note that the bolt of Lucas's PK Fire actually has a hurtbox which hilariously allows it to stop ludicrously
strong projectiles and allows it to explode even if it gets swatted by an attack. The only thing it doesn't blow up on is whiffs and shields.

You also can't talk Lucas/Ness comparisons without mentioning that Lucas has a zair which almost completely defines how he plays along with his version of PK Fire. He's a zoner first and foremost, his anti-zoning game is quite strong too. Lucas can and will make your life miserable if he gets the lead.

 

[Nobie]

It kind of kills me that people badmouth Mewtwo's down throw when it does have mixups at low percents and does 9% damage and with the help of a good pummel keeps his other kill moves fresh. In general Mewtwo's throws are great for stage positioning, are high damage, and two of them can kill. Just because they can't lead into guaranteed combos that's a problem?

 

[Vipermoon]

Best Smash moves in the game:

Usmash: Mario
Fsmash: Marth/Lucina (maybe even Lucina over Marth), Olimar, Rosa+Luma
Dsmash: Pit/Doc, Link is almost there

Mario's has crazy range and can throw it out usually unpunished. It's invincible and strong.

Marth and Lucina are up there with the fastest Fsmashes but extremely powerful, not too laggy, and cover great range above, in front, and below. Olimar's is one of the best normal ledge get-up punishes in the game as has 39 total freakin frames so hardly punishable. Rosa with Luma have crazy range with their Fsmash and it's very powerful.

Doc's is strong, fast, and has okay range. Not too punishable. Pit same thing except not strong, though it does share the other attributes plus it's disjointed obviously. Link's is strong and fairly fast. Good damage, range, and not much lag.

You're turn.

Of course this doesn't prove too much because while I'm saying these are the best Smash attacks there are characters like Kirby where all 3 are extremely good. Just not separately the best.

 

[RayNoire]

I don't know about regular FLUDD, but with customs HPF is ridiculous. Pick Castle Siege or Delfino and get free kills on the walkoffs from a very safe landing trap. Offstage IIRC it beats airdodges and can kill at 0%.

It kind of kills me that people badmouth Mewtwo's down throw when it does have mixups at low percents and does 9% damage and with the help of a good pummel keeps his other kill moves fresh. In general Mewtwo's throws are great for stage positioning, are high damage, and two of them can kill. Just because they can't lead into guaranteed combos that's a problem?

Mewtwo's pummel is actually pretty bad. You'll never get more than 2 at any percent against a mashing opponent.

Also I'm pretty sure every throw in the game is great for stage positioning.

But I don't really care about throw followups. Of all the things about Mewtwo that need changing, that is very, very low on my list.

 

[LancerStaff]

Best Smash moves in the game:

Usmash: Mario
Fsmash: Marth/Lucina (maybe even Lucina over Marth), Olimar, Rosa+Luma
Dsmash: Pit/Doc, Link is almost there

Mario's has crazy range and can throw it out usually unpunished. It's invincible and strong.

Marth and Lucina are up there with the fastest Fsmashes but extremely powerful, not too laggy, and cover great range above, in front, and below. Olimar's is one of the best normal ledge get-up punishes in the game as has 39 total freakin frames so hardly punishable. Rosa with Luma have crazy range with their Fsmash and it's very powerful.

Doc's is strong, fast, and has okay range. Not too punishable. Pit same thing except not strong, though it does share the other attributes plus it's disjointed obviously. Link's is strong and fairly fast. Good damage, range, and not much lag.

You're turn.

Of course this doesn't prove too much because while I'm saying these are the best Smash attacks there are characters like Kirby where all 3 are extremely good. Just not separately the best.

I'm surprised that anybody would put any of Pit's moves as best, much less the Dsmash. Yeah, it comes out on frame 5 and lingers to 6, then the back goes from 18-20 and the faf is on 41, but it has extremely low KB and a poor angle on the first hit. It's range isn't that good either... Or maybe Dsmashes in general have bad range and I'm being silly again.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm surprised that anybody would put any of Pit's moves as best, much less the Dsmash. Yeah, it comes out on frame 5 and lingers to 6, then the back goes from 18-20 and the faf is on 41, but it has extremely low KB and a poor angle on the first hit. It's range isn't that good either... Or maybe Dsmashes in general have bad range and I'm being silly again.

40 total frames on a Dsmash is among the lowest in the game and you have a frame 5 attack doing 10-12%. Sounds pretty good to me. All hit are weak though back sweetspot can kill if near the ledge but the point of this is as a get off me and a good damage punish.

ZSS has a really good Dsmash but it's hard to compare that one to others so I left it out.

 

[Luco]

Whilst Smog Frog might have said it using a hell of a lot of character icons, his message is more or less correct. Treating as anything close to Ness is a mistake. Lucas' zoning tools and different approach to neutral mark him as a very different character to Ness. And if you are going to compare the two and it's worth noting that Lucas has a better PKT2 for recovery (counters more or less beat Ness' PKT out too, except they do it by reducing his distance. Other than that Lucas is far less likely to get gimped in the same way) and in some situations edge-guarding too.

@Man Li Gi - The difference between Ness and Yoshi is mostly results.

... That being said, there is a very solid argument for Ness being over-rated that revolves mostly around his neutral, disadvantage and how this affects his MUs.

 

[bc1910]

Of all the problems Mewtwo has, not having a good grab game isn't really one of them. Sure he'd definitely like a legitimate combo out of D-throw, but that change by itself wouldn't really make Mewtwo that much better, considering bigger problems like his size and physics.

So uh, it's kinda misleading to point to Mewtwo's lack of throw combos and citing him being bad.

Mewtwo having a legitimate combo out of Dthrow would improve his damage output to the point where you'd actually have to worry about getting Uthrown without him dying first. The lack of throw followups perhaps isn't Mewtwo's biggest flaw but it certainly matters, it's actually misleading of you to suggest otherwise. Depends what you specifically mean by "that much better" I suppose.

Besides, even if you don't think it's the causation, Mewtwo being relatively bad and having poor throw combos is still in keeping with the game's correlation of good/bad characters and good/bad throw combos. Not that this would matter much if his lack of throw combos didn't contribute to his placing at all, but it does, so yeah.