Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Plain Yogurt]

On a more serious note, MArts are probably why he's screwed. Any change they make to him will be amplified by the arts, and a small buff to vanilla Shulk may mean an OP speed/buster/smash/shield/jump Shulk. The only change that would do this are frame data changes imo, but that's probably not happening because Shulk would become too dangerous. I don't see him going any higher than mid tier right now.

Any Shulk players out there: have you considered using MShield at lower %'s with the intention of making popular combo starters unsafe on hit? I know you lose what little mobility Shulk has and take a % dealt nerf, but with the reduced % and KB received + crouch cancelling, you might be able to retaliate immediately from a lot of moves. I see "shield's only good for stalling at high %" thrown around a lot. That's its main strength, but it can have uses elsewhere.

Sorry I'm late on this. Was at Smash Con (One game away from getting through phase one of pools ).

If Shulk got a few cooldown reductions that'd be just swell. I'd pay good money for spaced vanilla FTilt to be safe on shield. But of course like you say that could have ramifications on how good buster FTilt would be. Then again it's a frame 12 FTilt. Balancing this character is weird.

Also improving his bad moves is helpful. Backslash is actually kinda semi-workable now post-patch. I think giving him a better dash attack (Ike treatment PLEASE) and letting up and down air have weak lingering hitboxes would go a long way.

Shield does ruin low percent combos. I've done it myself in a few tournaments and it really throws people off who try to rely on those old BnBs. But of course higher level players will know not to deal with it and will simply camp you out. Therefore as of now I think it isn't such a bad idea for if you start your second stock in the lead, as they either have to approach and get punished on hit or they camp you out and lose 16 seconds to catch up. Plus even if they do hit you they're doing 2/3rds damage. Once you've taken a little damage though you might end up extending their combos instead, so you gotta look out for that. I cautiously say that Shield is super underrated by everyone not in the Shulk boards.

 

[Man Li Gi]

What is the largest number of tournaments that Ken won in a row? ZeRo might be unprecedented in the history of Smash.

Sry I should explain my statement. Zero like Ken have shown a dominant stance in the community by optimizing options and not trying to move too far outfield.

Nairo has shown great skill and is the guy to always come close, but for some reason chokes. Azen had this unfortunate trait too.

Esam is so far outfield that he has a greater chance to beat Zero. Thus reminds me of how KDJ beat Ken while he was in his he'd day (playing so crazy it hurts).

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of PC Chris to come about.

 

[Kaladin]

Sry I should explain my statement. Zero like Ken have shown a dominant stance in the community by optimizing options and not trying to move too far outfield.

Nairo has shown great skill and is the guy to always come close, but for some reason chokes. Azen had this unfortunate trait too.

Esam is so far outfield that he has a greater chance to beat Zero. Thus reminds me of how KDJ beat Ken while he was in his he'd day (playing so crazy it hurts).

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of PC Chris to come about.

I think ESAM was being coached by Ally, cuz he did the Ally special several times: usmash to usmash to usmash to usmash to usmash to usmash.

It's a true combo, you know.

But yeah, ESAM's unpredictablility is his greatest asset.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Sry I should explain my statement. Zero like Ken have shown a dominant stance in the community by optimizing options and not trying to move too far outfield.

Nairo has shown great skill and is the guy to always come close, but for some reason chokes. Azen had this unfortunate trait too.

Esam is so far outfield that he has a greater chance to beat Zero. Thus reminds me of how KDJ beat Ken while he was in his he'd day (playing so crazy it hurts).

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of PC Chris to come about.

Once that happens the smash 4 hierarchy will be complete. All the pieces will fall into place that player will be the one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sry I should explain my statement. Zero like Ken have shown a dominant stance in the community by optimizing options and not trying to move too far outfield.

Nairo has shown great skill and is the guy to always come close, but for some reason chokes. Azen had this unfortunate trait too.

Esam is so far outfield that he has a greater chance to beat Zero. Thus reminds me of how KDJ beat Ken while he was in his he'd day (playing so crazy it hurts).

I'm still waiting for the equivalent of PC Chris to come about.

This post makes me miss the old days.

I miss PC damn. Chillin with him, Wes, Dave, Zanguzen, M2K, Azen, etc.

Many fond memories.

Yall so damn young it hurts.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLzK_tivw9Y

Hey look, top level Lucina play exists! And Roy I guess.

And proof that shield breaker is useful. IMO it's ignorant to say it isn't.

 

[DanGR]

Almost everything has uses. Shieldbreaker is limited to 1 purpose, requiring a hard read and usually a major error on the opponent's part to succeed.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

A lot of people seem to be complaining that they can't go solo with their main and have a reasonable shot of winning a major because shiek.

First of all, guess what: zero has been winning repeatedly with solo shiek because he's simply better than everyone, not because shiek is. If the definition of viability is gonna be "able to solo majors and win consistently" then no matter who you pick your char will be unviable, unless you're Zero. There is a major skill gap between Zero and the rest and he happens to play shiek. The guy has won like 6 majors and 45 tourneys straight; this has definitely skewed many people's ideas of what is viable in theory, where all players have equal skill. The only shiek player that has been completely dominating and making the character look unstoppable is Zero. Take him out the equation for the sake of analysis and Top 8 composition at a major is very diverse and shiek definitely doesn't always win. There also wouldn't be as many players and characters not making Top 8 because they faced Zero early and lost.

Secondly, players skill aside, any solo main will be realistically incapable of winning a major consistently (except for shiek, maybe Pikachu as well IMO) when there are so many characters in the game. You are bound to run into a character that beats yours when there is so much character representation at a major.

Thirdly- Outside of theory land, in reality, there is no character whatsoever that can be solo viable when you think about the wide variety of different PLAYERS AND PLAYSTYLES present at a major. Unless, of course, you're Zero. This includes shiek. Even the other top shiek players are starting to realize this and are picking up secondaries not to cover characters that can beat shiek, but to cover PLAYERS who can beat shiek. Shiek has more even matchups than 0, and she does not completely invalidate anyone at this point in time. She is also the character that everyone practices and plays against the most. It is becoming more and more obvious that unless you're Zero top Shiek players have a much better chance of succeeding when they have a good secondary, because there is much more to success at the top level than theory fighting. This is true for any character for the same reasons. Certain players will be better at beating character X than others regardless of who they play.

Also the game is way too young to be complaining like this either way.

TLDR: Unless you're Zero you should have a secondary, even if you play Shiek. One character is risky in general because players>characters. This is how the game works. Get better or quit.

 

[Ghostbone]

Even Zero has a secondary for the Sheik matchup (he says that he just picks him because he likes him, but he's likely better against Sheik with Diddy than he is with Sheik).

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Character loyalty is great and all, but i honestly feel like some top players are held back by not having a secondary. How does FOW not have a plan for Rosalina? If aMSa has a Pikachu, why not whip it out for Greninja's bad matchups or when hes just not working?

I mean I'd be playing Diddy even if he was terrible because Diddy is a baller but that doesn't mean I always have to.

 

[Smog Frog]

once mains stop playing so scared, the matchup actually isnt that bad. he does very nasty things to offstage, incinerates luma, and has very strong sh sh mixups that kill very early(do i come down with a uair or do i come down and grab?)

once they realize that the mu is not so bad, results will get much better.

 

[|RK|]

Character loyalty is great and all, but i honestly feel like some top players are held back by not having a secondary. How does FOW not have a plan for Rosalina? If aMSa has a Pikachu, why not whip it out for Greninja's bad matchups or when hes just not working?

I mean I'd be playing Diddy even if he was terrible because Diddy is a baller but that doesn't mean I always have to.

Eh. Yeah and no. On one hand, you do cover bad matchups. On the other, practicing with one character almost exclusively pushes that character way farther than they would go otherwise.

It makes more sense in a game as balanced as this one than, say, maining Melee Kirby exclusively. It also gives you the opportunity to surprise people if that character is a sleeper.

Finally, patches mean that there's a chance the character you work hard with will be improved someday. At that point, refer to my first paragraph.

IMO.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's laser is completely balanced around its Free For All/2v2 team attack off potency and that it has its usages in singles as his only worthwhile b-reverse/wavebounce tool.

I'll say this now, again, but wavebouncing is a big part to producing 50/50s with fantastic PvP interactions in this game. Characters with good wavebounce options have a lot of future areas of growth.
Falco can wave bounce laser out of nearly every hit he gets (if they're not in immediate follow up range), it moves him towards the ground faster + chips on 3%. 3% every time you get a bair, nair or whatever after early/mid percent. You can even mix up a side-b here, which hilariously can work, and when people start adapting to the wavebounce laser with air dodges they're going to be in even more trouble.

His pivot skid must be one of the largest in the game. His lack of aerial mobility makes "sense" just because of this feature. Pivot Jump Back Air is like an advancing snake bite; faster than the eye can see and they're already retracted before you can tell. You can rising bair and hit most of the cast, or post-apex bair and hit a lot of things with variation.
If you see a shield come up at around the time you jump, you can wavebounce laser and push yourself a dash length's away; this is roughly the only scenario I'd see falco's laser being safe on hit in mid-range quarters, if they aren't dashing into your back air either, the wavebounce laser will poke them too.

Also on the point of thoughtless balance suggestions.
It's often hard to tell what's a positive reflective comment or the start/continuation of a poor tangent. Feel free to throw a report with it, if I start to really see it being the same people every time I'll probably amp up the harshness.

 

[Kirito_SAO]

How good are in the metagame? Like would they qualify for top 20 greatest threats in the game? I would just like to know there stances in the metagame currently.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hi, wanted to drop some fun facts here about Super Smash Con and character use. Enjoy they for what you will and maybe they start some discussion.

---
Top 32​

Characters used in the Top 32:


Used By One Person:
Used By Two People:
Used By Three People:
Used By Four People:

Total % of the cast used in Top 32: 44%

---​

Top 16​

Characters used in the Top 16:

Used By One Person:

Used By Two People:

Used By Three People:

Total % of the cast used in Top 16: 27%

---​

Top 8​

Characters used in the Top 8:

Used By One Person:

Used By Two People:

Used By Three People:

Total % of the cast used in t he Top 8: 20%

---​

There's lots of interesting fun things here to notice but I'm more interested in your impressions. Thoughts?

 

[Smog Frog]

none of them except MAAYYYYYBEEEE can be a top 20 threat. i'll get @ Emblem Lord to explain because i havent the first clue how to play the character and he treats like he's some hidden god.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby was used in Top 32? When?

edit: oh, nevermind. I find it a bit surprising Kirby got so far.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Eh. Yeah and no. On one hand, you do cover bad matchups. On the other, practicing with one character almost exclusively pushes that character way farther than they would go otherwise.

It makes more sense in a game as balanced as this one than, say, maining Melee Kirby exclusively. It also gives you the opportunity to surprise people if that character is a sleeper.

Finally, patches mean that there's a chance the character you work hard with will be improved someday. At that point, refer to my first paragraph.

IMO.

It will definitely be more work to maintain two characters instead of one, but its certainly not impossible. Its really just a question of time investment and the player's ability to adapt.

Also playing different characters can teach you skills that will actually improve how you play your main.

Realistically though you're right. I've been putting less time into my pocket Luigi over my main two and it seems to be worth it. Although Luigi is a great pocket simply because he counterpicks really hard and doesn't require as much practice to maintain.

But its very subjective, it really just depends on the person.

 

[Amadeus9]

Thoughts?

Meta Knight where?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Meta Knight where?

Huh, that's right there should be a bit of MK. Lemee fix that.

Though more surprisingly as someone noted on reddit, not a single Mario.

 

[Ovenn]

Hi, wanted to drop some fun facts here about Super Smash Con and character use. Enjoy they for what you will and maybe they start some discussion.

Top 8​

Characters used in the Top 8:

Used By One Person:

Used By Two People:

Used By Three People:

Total % of the cast used in t he Top 8: 15%

---​

There's lots of interesting fun things here to notice but I'm more interested in your impressions. Thoughts?

I'm confused, you included Nakat's one game as Pika, but not Mr. R as MetaKnight for two games, and games with Nairo's DP & ESAM's Yoshi (however embarrassing it was).

My thoughts: pretty similar to the melee one in a breakdown of numbers. S4 Sheik had the same number of players as Melee Fox, and although melee had more characters two people played, S4 had more that one person played, and a higher total (9 to 11).

EDIT: Other comparisons
Brawl

Metaknight had 3 players, besides esam there was; wolf, snake, zss, and oli. Esam played Pikachu, and also Ice climbers, Samus and ZSS (In one game lol), and bowser. So add those where you will.

64

3 Yoshis, 2 Kirby, Pika, C.Falcon, and Mario, 1 Fox.

PM
biblethump

2nd Edition Thoughts: people seem to overlap less in Brawl and S4 than in melee and 64 and although this can be attributed to the larger stage roster, it's a little telling that the same number of players all played the best character... except in 64 lol. I think this is mostly people wanting to pick the "Best" option rather than S4 sheik actually being as good in comparison to the rest of the cast as brawl metaknight or even melee fox.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm confused, you included Nakat's one game as Pika, but not Mr. R as MetaKnight for two games, and games with Nairo's DP & ESAM's Yoshi (however embarrassing it was).

My thoughts: pretty similar to the melee one in a breakdown of numbers. S4 Sheik had the same number of players as Melee Fox, and although melee had more characters two people played, S4 had more that one person played, and a higher total (9 to 11).

Blame the Smash Wiki and my fragile memory. Gonna add some of this stuff in.

 

[Tainic]

Glad to see Marth and DK having a tad more representation than before, hope they both (Especially DK.) will be used more and more, they're so entertaining to watch.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja mains seem to be having a bit of a struggle to get into top 32. aMSa barely lost to Dabuz at EVO and Techei almost made it in Smash Con.

 

[DanGR]

I mean no disrespect to the players who attended Smash Con, but the overall competition there seemed notably weaker than at past major events.

 

[Yonder]

TLDR: Unless you're Zero you should have a secondary, even if you play Shiek. One character is risky in general because players>characters. This is how the game works. Get better or quit.

Zero actually needed a secondary [Sheik at the time] to vs Concon [Luigi] as Diddy, his true main at the time. If he didn't switch, Zero may have very well lost the tourney that day and not just a set. Just an instant I thought I'd bring up to say that even Zero can't go solo with any character...except Sheik who's the best in the game and loses to no one.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

There's too many characters in this game to not have a secondary.

 

[Balgorxz]

and luigi once again fails to reach top8 in a relevent tournament, how many times already?
luigi is good character but not top10, you won't be seeing them in the very high skill bracket until a legendary luigi mains comes to town.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

and luigi once again fails to reach top8 in a relevent tournament, how many times already?
luigi is good character but not top10, you won't be seeing them in the very high skill bracket until a legendary luigi mains comes to town.

Looks like he didn't even make top 16.

 

[Cassio]

it's a little telling that the same number of players all played the best character... except in 64 lol. I think this is mostly people wanting to pick the "Best" option rather than S4 sheik actually being as good in comparison to the rest of the cast as brawl metaknight or even melee fox.

Its a smash rule of thumb, pika is always an unpopular pick even when he's the best character.

 

[Ikes]

Once that happens the smash 4 hierarchy will be complete. All the pieces will fall into place that player will be the one.

Waiting for the new M2K to come around and dominate for a while

I hope it actually ends up being M2K tbh
once he goes and sees the damn doctor

 

[Kofu]

Falco's laser is completely balanced around its Free For All/2v2 team attack off potency and that it has its usages in singles as his only worthwhile b-reverse/wavebounce tool.

I'll say this now, again, but wavebouncing is a big part to producing 50/50s with fantastic PvP interactions in this game. Characters with good wavebounce options have a lot of future areas of growth.
Falco can wave bounce laser out of nearly every hit he gets (if they're not in immediate follow up range), it moves him towards the ground faster + chips on 3%. 3% every time you get a bair, nair or whatever after early/mid percent. You can even mix up a side-b here, which hilariously can work, and when people start adapting to the wavebounce laser with air dodges they're going to be in even more trouble.

His pivot skid must be one of the largest in the game. His lack of aerial mobility makes "sense" just because of this feature. Pivot Jump Back Air is like an advancing snake bite; faster than the eye can see and they're already retracted before you can tell. You can rising bair and hit most of the cast, or post-apex bair and hit a lot of things with variation.
If you see a shield come up at around the time you jump, you can wavebounce laser and push yourself a dash length's away; this is roughly the only scenario I'd see falco's laser being safe on hit in mid-range quarters, if they aren't dashing into your back air either, the wavebounce laser will poke them too.

Also on the point of thoughtless balance suggestions.
It's often hard to tell what's a positive reflective comment or the start/continuation of a poor tangent. Feel free to throw a report with it, if I start to really see it being the same people every time I'll probably amp up the harshness.

Speaking of wavebouncing/B-Reversing specials, how do you feel Chef works as a B-Reverse move? It's a decent commitment but Game & Watch's high air speed allows him to bounce out of situations a good distance while throwing out a hitbox close to the body and a wide-arcing, slow projectile for protection. It sounds great in theory but sadly air haven't been able to play for a few months to put it into practice.

Judge can also be wavebounced IIRC.

 

[bc1910]

He's right tho.
Luigi beats everyone else, except for niche mid/low tiers that aren't worth putting your time into because they suck vs most top tiers. If you're playing to win, Zero gave you the best advice on how to.

I'm being overly snarky to prove a point. Picking a better character or a CP character is the most obvious thing you can do to beat a character. Anyone could tell you that. My point being, a video explaining Luigi's weaknesses properly would have been better than a "who counters Luigi" video since we all KNOW we can just pick Sheik.

So I wouldn't rely on an anti-Sheik video specifically from Zero being of more use than other high level players.

------

I think the sheer scarceness of Greninja mains will make his results wlrse than they should be for a while, but I am expecting them to pick up. Particularly from aMSa.

And if they don't pick up maybe they'll buff him again

 

[C0rvus]

Would the best case for dual maining be 2 characters that cover the most character MUs or two characters that play very differently for one another? In the first case, you have characters to counterpick each other's bad MUs (ideally). In the other case, being able to switch gears and mix up your game plan may let you get the jump on a player who has downloaded your first character, without your alternate necessarily being a counterpick MU-wise.

I mean, you could do all of that with just Sheik, but hey, food for thought.

 

[TriTails]

and luigi once again fails to reach top8 in a relevent tournament, how many times already?
luigi is good character but not top10, you won't be seeing them in the very high skill bracket until a legendary luigi mains comes to town.

I feel U-throw needs to be tested more. I think with frame perfect execution, one can do triple F-airs outta one U-throw. But I don't have a C-stick so yeah. And DI exist.

It's sad that Luigi's throws aren't all great. F-throw is especially garbage that is outshined by D-throw B-air. I just wish U-throw was a combo throw so we don't go pressing down eveytime we get a grab.

But hey... a MK main popped out of nowhere, lost to Mr. R once, and went triple 2-stocking him in the next three games. So.. uh... one can hope right?

I mean, imagine if a Luigi can do JC, PP, PS pretty frequently, and uses FJP as the ultimate punisher. The ability to be able to end your opponents stocks at 70% consistently should not be underestimated. A lot of Luigi mains seem to opt for grabs a lot of time tho...

I feel my character has potential. I agree entirely he's overrated but who knows when a super-duper Luigi mains pops out and decided to obliterate eveyone with absurd reads and punishes. Luigi gain a lot from a read, not Ganon-tier but still.

Maybe... Just maybe... Until then, we are pretty much safe to put him below top 10.

 

[Alphamew17]

Ah yes, the Captain Falcon support is real. Props to Fatality for placing fourth and showing his moves

 

[Drarky]

It's sad that Luigi's throws aren't all great. F-throw is especially garbage that is outshined by D-throw B-air. I just wish U-throw was a combo throw so we don't go pressing down eveytime we get a grab.

I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. But do not ever go there saying that, because it's a straight up lie.

Luigi has a decent enough kill throw, a combo throw, and the other 2 options that he has are good for getting his opponent off-stage or ready for some small setup, his overall throw options are FAR from bad compared to some characters like Zelda, which has none of these options at all, and have to suffer even more to get them.

I get it that it's not the greatest set of throws, but saying that they arent "all that great" it's going too far when you consider how horrible the grab game of some other characters is.

 

[Kirito_SAO]

Would the best case for dual maining be 2 characters that cover the most character MUs or two characters that play very differently for one another? In the first case, you have characters to counterpick each other's bad MUs (ideally). In the other case, being able to switch gears and mix up your game plan may let you get the jump on a player who has downloaded your first character, without your alternate necessarily being a counterpick MU-wise.

It all depends on how YOU play. If you can comfortably play 2 different styles then go for it as long as you are comfortable fighting against almost every character in the game.

Also if it is legal you could always get a 3rd character to cover those characters who give you a hard time.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. But do not ever go there saying that, because it's a straight up lie.

Luigi has a decent enough kill throw, a combo throw, and the other 2 options that he has are good for getting his opponent off-stage or ready for some small setup, his overall throw options are FAR from bad compared to some characters like Zelda, which has none of these options at all, and have to suffer even more to get them.

I get it that it's not the greatest set of throws, but saying that they arent "all that great" it's going too far when you consider how horrible the grab game of some other characters is.

Luigi's f-throw isn't bad in the sense that other characters would still want it, but Luigi has literally no use for it (maybe edge of smashville platform at early %s next to blast zone, or walk-offs). In any normal situation d-throw > aerial is better.

In that sense, it's worthless to luigi. (well i guess it's useful in doubles, but that's not what we're talking about, and it's not any better than other character's throws really)

Waiting for the new M2K to come around and dominate for a while

I hope it actually ends up being M2K tbh
once he goes and sees the damn doctor

Doctors are just going to tell him to stop playing smash haha. (he should tbh, hand health more important)

 

[Ikes]

Luigi's f-throw isn't bad in the sense that other characters would still want it, but Luigi has literally no use for it (maybe edge of smashville platform at early %s next to blast zone, or walk-offs). In any normal situation d-throw > aerial is better.

In that sense, it's worthless to luigi. (well i guess it's useful in doubles, but that's not what we're talking about, and it's not any better than other character's throws really)


Doctors are just going to tell him to stop playing smash haha. (he should tbh, hand health more important)

smash is the dudes life though

If I had to give up my lifeblood and only consistent form of income i'd probably just stop breathing altogether no offense.