Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Cassio]

Peeps feeling sheik kills better then pika, wait 6-12 months and I'll wager this won't seem to be the case.

The best characterization I have for pika is that he's melee fox. Not in the best character in the game sense, but in the sense that his higher skill requirement on his neutral and punish will make him a late bloomer, and his glass canon attributes will make it possible for many characters to do well vs him.

 

[Illuminose]

Even with Sheik? What you smoking brah

ok first of all, did you watch esam vs zero? or nakat vs zero? grand finals was a little more...iffy, but esam took zero to last game last stock in winners finals and nakat took zero to last stock last hit in both games they played. two pikachus vs the best player in the world who has not dropped a tournament in smash 4's history.

Pikachu is probably the one character that has better combo conversions than Sheik does. Sheik is a fast faller, making her an ideal target for combos. The nature of Pikachu's combos makes escaping with bouncing fish pretty ineffective because it won't actually be safe at the general height which Pikachu combos. On the flip side, Pikachu is not quite as easy for Sheik to combo. Per grab/combo, Pikachu is getting more damage. Sheik's standard fthrow -> fair -> fair -> regrab doesn't actually work on Pikachu because Pikachu can just interrupt with a thunder. In fact, anything that Sheik goes for which isn't true can pretty much be interrupted/punished with a thunder.

Pikachu has two other distinct advantages: he doesn't care that much about needles and he can actually do stuff to a recovering Sheik. First, on needles. As a character, Pikachu is very slippery and doesn't stay grounded too often. He uses full hop thunder jolts to put on pressure and can quick attack around the stage to stay mobile/difficult to pin down. As a result of his movement, needles aren't really a major trouble for him. As for the off-stage game, Pikachu probably has the best edgeguarding in the game. He has multiple moves that excel at getting the one frame punish, thunder walls, and other aerials to pressure off-stage. He might not necessarily gimp Sheik, but he can definitely punish her and kill her at higher percents.

I think that once ESAM (and everyone else) really learns to deal with Sheik's down throw (everyone is kinda **** at dealing with it), we'll see the kill confirm disparity go down. If you're above like 120-130%, especially if Sheik has rage, you simply should not get hit. You can DI away anyways, but people don't jump out of it which is skewing the perception of how effective it is. The other thing people should not fall for is fthrow -> bouncing fish at kill percent. It doesn't work, people just don't react and fall for it which is silly.

 

[Ghostbone]

Peeps feeling sheik kills better then pika, wait 6-12 months and I'll wager this won't seem to be the case.

So what crazy guaranteed kill setups does Pikachu have that's somehow too hard for pika's to implement currently?
Pikachu's smashes are all super high commitment, same with Sheik but she has bouncing fish and up-air/vanish to seal stocks consistently while pika has to fish for thunder or wait for a mistake and up-smash.

You can DI away anyways, but people don't jump out of it which is skewing the perception of how effective it is. The other thing people should not fall for is fthrow -> bouncing fish at kill percent. It doesn't work, people just don't react and fall for it which is silly.

You can't jump out, it registers as a true combo in training mode which means air-dodging is your only option.

If you air-dodge an expected bouncing fish from f-throw, Sheik can wait slightly then bouncing fish, or go for vanish to catch it similar to the up-throw mixup (zero did both of these in winner's finals). It's read dependent, it's not as if you can get out of it every time and you're bad if you get hit.

 

[Amadeus9]

@ Illuminose , just a few pages back you were going on about how MK vs Sheik is somehow even. Honestly at this point I guess we should just say that Sheik is even with every character in the game because she lost to them once? Kinda funky logic if you ask me. Stop underrating your character. Can't we move past the "Sheik is bad she can't kill till 140%" nonsense? If it's really so easy to avoid her kill set ups, why don't you test your luck against ZeRo?

 

[Blobface]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I imagine sourspot Fairs are good for combos as well, sometimes even better maybe? Tbh my main gripes with Sheik, besides needles and Fair being too lagless, are that Fair and Bouncing Fish seem to have such crazy big hitboxes. I don't know for sure, but it seems like Fair is disjointed, and hits farther out than you would expect. I know BF is disjointed at the end, and usually when I see Fthrow->BF, it looks like it shouldn't connect, but it does because there's a gigantic arcing hitbox up top.

Sheik's F-air is disjointed, and this is my biggest gripe besides Needles as well. The fact that it's fast, safe, and snuffs everything is just silly.

 

[Illuminose]

@ Illuminose , just a few pages back you were going on about how MK vs Sheik is somehow even. Honestly at this point I guess we should just say that Sheik is even with every character in the game because she lost to them once? Kinda funky logic if you ask me. Stop underrating your character. Can't we move past the "Sheik is bad she can't kill till 140%" nonsense? If it's really so easy to avoid her kill set ups, why don't you test your luck against ZeRo?

nah I'm not saying it's that easy, I'm saying that at very high percent you should not get hit by stuff out of down throw. If you get hit by an up air at 150%, you messed up. You can so easily jump out at high percents like that and it's kind of cringeworthy to watch people get hit by it.

Matchups that are even with Sheik: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Sonic, maybe Zero Suit, maybe Kirby. Lucario wins like 55:45 (if not 60:40 though that's pushing it). I'm not underrating my character. I'm looking at the matchups as they are and making an assessment. Mostly consistent with a) what other Sheiks think and b) what their character boards think. Meta Knights who think the matchup isn't even are delusional. Pika v Sheik is definitely even. Both the world's best Pikachu and the world's best Sheik think so. Am I the one who has funky logic? p sure you are the one with funky logic.

 

[Asdioh]

I think that once ESAM (and everyone else) really learns to deal with Sheik's down throw (everyone is kinda **** at dealing with it), we'll see the kill confirm disparity go down. If you're above like 120-130%, especially if Sheik has rage, you simply should not get hit. You can DI away anyways, but people don't jump out of it which is skewing the perception of how effective it is. The other thing people should not fall for is fthrow -> bouncing fish at kill percent. It doesn't work, people just don't react and fall for it which is silly.

It's interesting how, back when Diddy's Upair was horrifically overpowered, everybody kept constantly telling people how to DI his Downthrow* at various percentages, but now with Sheik being the best character, I rarely see anybody telling where to DI Sheik's throws at varying percentages. It's as if they're guaranteed, but like you said, they're not that guaranteed at certain kill percents. Spread the knowledge!

*for some reason nobody used Upthrow back then, even though it was as good, or better!

 

[Cassio]

Metaknight probably does do well vs Sheik. Sheik relies on jumping a decent amount in her neutral, and short fast characters can be the bane of such styles. Obviously theres more too her then that, but sheik mk being in the realm of even isnt the most far-fetched thing.

Im also still convinced MK players underrated their character. A day ago just about every MK player jumped at me when I said he probably did well vs ZSS, saying that ZSS wrecked MK.

So what crazy guaranteed kill setups does Pikachu have that's somehow too hard for pika's to implement currently?
Pikachu's smashes are all super high commitment, same with Sheik but she has bouncing fish and up-air/vanish to seal stocks consistently while pika has to fish for thunder or wait for a mistake and up-smash.

I've already made a post about this before. Its more about experimentation/knowledge then difficulty, but Id like to wait to have time to compete more (for a least a little while) before I heavily advertise what at least Ive come up with.

You can't jump out, it registers as a true combo in training mode which means air-dodging is your only option.

If you air-dodge an expected bouncing fish from f-throw, Sheik can wait slightly then bouncing fish, or go for vanish to catch it similar to the up-throw mixup (zero did both of these in winner's finals). It's read dependent, it's not as if you can get out of it every time and you're bad if you get hit.

Its possible you could attack out of the combo, but I think very few people know you can attack before you can jump. Its also percent and rage dependant, as its understood more itll help those trying to avoid it more.

 

[TriTails]

nah I'm not saying it's that easy, I'm saying that at very high percent you should not get hit by stuff out of down throw.

Then Sheik goes F-throw and kill you with an Up-air.

I'm curious. Is there any appeal on using D-throw than F-throw as Sheik's kill setups? F-throw to U-air is a true combo for a long time while D-throw only gives you 50:50. If I were to choose, I would pick the guaranteed one. Or is it the killing potential for Vanish that made a lot of people use D-throw at kill percents? I also recall F-throw can almost combo to BF but IDK.

 

[Illuminose]

Then Sheik goes F-throw and kill you with an Up-air.

I'm curious. Is there any appeal on using D-throw than F-throw as Sheik's kill setups? F-throw to U-air is a true combo for a long time while D-throw only gives you 50:50. If I were to choose, I would pick the guaranteed one. Or is it the killing potential for Vanish that made a lot of people use D-throw at kill percents? I also recall F-throw can almost combo to BF but IDK.

nah fthrow doesn't really work. fthrow -> up air doesn't work when you need it to kill. fthrow -> bouncing fish is kind of a thing but it's not even close to guaranteed. You can kinda read an air dodge and get it sometimes but with DI it shouldn't really work. The main application of fthrow is a DI mixup because you want to DI away from dthrow but in on fthrow. It's also better for positioning by the edge of the stage. Sometimes you can get a bouncing fish, sometimes you can get a vanish, but outside that it's really whatever. Down throw puts them in a much tougher position around the 100-120ish% range, which is where down throw mixups are really effective (though people can get better at escaping them).

 

[Amadeus9]

I think Meta Knights great, but I'm going to stand my ground on Sheik matchup being 45:55 Sheik's favor, and ZSS matchup being 60:40 ZSS's favor, or worse.

My point still stands, if it's so easy to escape Sheik's kill set ups, they would be escaped, wouldn't they? Even when they aren't true combos, she has such a wide array of ways to combo into Bouncing Fish/Up Air/Vanish that there is no way to predict which one will come out and DI accordingly. And even when you can act, any action other than air dodge will get you killed by up air, and an air dodge will get you killed by Vanish or Bouncing Fish, so I fail to see how these set ups are ineffective at any point. Even when someone reaches the magic percentage where they can escape the combos, they're one back air read away from death. There are no glaring holes or weaknesses in Sheik's fighting plan, don't treat it like there are.

Regardless, results-wise I can't see the pika matchup being better than 55:45 Sheik's favor. In fact that's what I'd say it is. Yes, Pika has the tools you've mentioned. I think it's one of the closest to even matchups for Sheik. Completely even though? No. Sheik's options are altogether more safe and more effective than Pika's. That's just how it is.

 

[Ulevo]

Metaknight probably does do well vs Sheik. Sheik relies on jumping a decent amount in her neutral, and short fast characters can be the bane of such styles. Obviously theres more too her then that, but sheik mk being in the realm of even isnt the most far-fetched thing.

Im also still convinced MK players underrated their character. A day ago just about every MK player jumped at me when I said he probably did well vs ZSS, saying that ZSS wrecked MK.

I cannot speak for everyone, but the Meta Knight community has not had a history of underrating their character. In fact I think the community overall has had one of the more realistic set of expectations for their character. They're calling for buffs because generally players want a top tier character. Typically the Smash community outside of the Meta Knight circle is as dumb as a post when it comes to the character, so this disconnect is not surprising.

As for Meta Knight's recent success, especially against Sheik, I chop a lot of that up to match up ignorance. The only player who does well against Sheik who does not make crucial mistakes and go unpunished is Ito. Leo for instance was very unpolished and sloppy. Mr. R simply did not know how to handle him.

I definitely see Sheik having the match up in her favor. Barring any nerfs to Sheik, give it time.

As for the ZSS thing, I have been skeptical about that match up being bad for us, but that is one of the only things I generally disagree with from the majority.

 

[Ffamran]

Unrelated to all of this since some of you were talking about jump squat frames this morning? and I was busy, but what if they made jump squat frames universal? In KoF XIII and I think other fighting games, jump frames are universal. No matter if you're a grappler or heavy like Raiden and Daimon or limber and athletic like Kim or Athena, you all had frame 4 jump squats. It wouldn't be major and it would hurt and help everyone. So, let's say that everyone has a frame 6 jump squat now. Well, that would hurt characters like Fox who has a frame 4 jump squat and it would help characters who had +7 jump squats like Bowser and Ike. At the same time, this means nobody has an advantage or a disadvantage as everyone would be jumping at the same time. Or we could go with frame 4 like in KoF and have everyone be as jumpy as bunnies.

Oh, and universal grab frames. So, for melee grabs like Marth, Captain Falcon, and Bowser, frame 7 standing, frame 9 dash, and frame 10 pivot. For ranged, but not tether grabbers, then frame 10 standing, frame 12 dash, and frame 13 pivot. For tether grabbers, frame 12 standing, 13 dash, and 14 pivot. Some characters can have special grabs like Wario can have frame 8 all grabs, Pac-Man frame 10 all grabs instead of the 12 he's got now, and Greninja with a frame 10 standing instead of the 14 he's got, but frame 9 dash, and frame 13 pivot instead of the 15 he's got now. Once again, hurt characters with fast grabs like Fox, Mario, and Luigi, but help characters with slower melee grabs like Bowser, Falco, and Duck Hunt. For ranged, it would hurt Zelda? and other ranged grabbers, but help characters like Greninja and Pac-Man. Ditto with tether where characters like Samus and ZSS would have quicker grabs, but Lucas, Toon Link, Link end up with the same standing grabs, faster dash, and faster pivot grab, or slower pivot for Lucas. In the end, almost all melee, ranged, and tether grabbers grab at the same time. Everyone's would be advantaged and disadvantaged.

I don't know, it's just that I find it weird sometimes how characters like say, Falco has a slow jump squat, but ZSS and Greninja jump almost instantly and Greninja is the second highest jumper followed by ZSS. Falco's is frame 6 while Greninja and ZSS's is frame 4. Just looked and Jigglypuff's is frame 6... Really? Okay, a balloon and air friction, but still, balloons get into the air easily. For grabs, same and yes, it relates to Falco as well. Why? Falco's a melee fighter who (if it was actually good) zones and forces you to approach him so he can fight up close or he approaches to fight up close. Well, how's a melee fighter going to fight if his grab's atrociously slow? Same with Little Mac and Bowser. Then you have all these speedsters like Fox, Roy, Sheik, and Diddy with fast grabs allowing them to get grabs quickly and easily to convert off of. Bowser and Ganondorf are the grapplers of this game, but what's a grappler if he can't grab properly outside of command grabs? Wario at least has the same frames for his grabs, but Bowser and Ganondorf just get slower and slower with their fastest grab being frame 9 for Bowser and frame 7 for Ganondorf. Frame 7? Yeah, that's frame 7 standing, frame 11 dash, and frame 10 pivot on a character who possibly cannot abuse his dash to grab like Captain Falcon or Meta Knight.

 

[Espy Rose]

Rofl at Pikachu beating Sonic again, except without a 50% chaingrab, weaker ledge game, weaker KO power, all while Sonic has KO power, just as much mobility, and two killing throws on him.

Really, cgs were the only reason Pikachu even "beat" Sonic in Brawl, and those are gone.

Cassio, normally I'd say don't change, but for the love of god, just change.

 

[Djent]

Characters That Sheik Doesn't Murder:


I think it's unlikely that any of these are actually "even," but they're close enough that it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. I also think that a few other characters could join this grouping, though these are the only ones I am confident listing right now. While I do think all of them have plenty of room for growth in all aspects of their game, I'd be surprised if any of them manage to outstrip Sheik in that department (as she has, so far, been about nothing but growth). The best case scenario for some character(s) having an advantaged matchup against the ninja at this point is probably a nerf to needles, sad as I am to say it.

 

[Ffamran]

Now for something completely different... Well, it's Falco ranting, so nothing different there... Still, behold! Hitboxes! First time I ever did hitboxes and I don't have any means to capture stuff, so potato.

Let me ask you this question: are these moves abusable? No? Then why does Falco have no hitbox for the last half of his Falco Phantasm? This is more or less absolute BS considering that as a spike, Falco Phantasm is frame 19 and is missing 50% of its hitbox. Even without the ability to spike, Fox Illusion is so safe and it's frame 21 that does 3%. Seriously, you could give Falco Phantasm a full hitbox and Fox Illusion 4% more damage and they wouldn't be that much of a problem.

 

[Vipermoon]

I had no idea Falco's side B went as far as Fox's.

 

[PK Gaming]

Now for something completely different... Well, it's Falco ranting, so nothing different there... Still, behold! Hitboxes! First time I ever did hitboxes and I don't have any means to capture stuff, so potato.

Let me ask you this question: are these moves abusable? No? Then why does Falco have no hitbox for the last half of his Falco Phantasm? This is more or less absolute BS considering that as a spike, Falco Phantasm is frame 19 and is missing 50% of its hitbox. Even without the ability to spike, Fox Illusion is so safe and it's frame 21 that does 3%. Seriously, you could give Falco Phantasm a full hitbox and Fox Illusion 4% more damage and they wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Wow

Just...

Damn

 

[Nobie]

A few pages back someone mentioned that if you played Mewtwo completely optimally, mastered every facet, and played totally safe, that would result in maybe a mid-tier character. The thing is, I don't think playing "100% safe" is actually the correct mindset to use Mewtwo, and anyone who tries to stay defensive is going to suffer.

I said this before, but I feel like Mewtwo is a gambler's character, in the sense that you have to take risks with him. Keep in mind, gambling doesn't mean being reckless, and it doesn't mean ignoring information or indeed the safe choice, but you have to juggle probability, unpredictability, and even all-or-nothing scenarios. You have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, basically, and this changes constantly depending on the character, the player, and the flow of the match. You have to be willing to assess the situation, risk vs. reward, and then still sometimes go for the "sub-optimal" choice while still acknowledging that you might lose it all because you have the courage or the death wish to put it all on the line. At the same time, you have to be willing to also fully disengage if it looks like there's just no good way in, and lose the progress you've made getting in on an opponent if it means a second chance to start the process.

I think I might not be making as much sense as I'd like, but that's because that gambler's mindset is also something a little incomprehensible except maybe to Game & Watch players (who's also a glass cannon, so maybe not a coincidence?).

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay someone tell me what just happened:

Playing against a Ganondorf on FG, my tipper Jab 1 (5%) just clashed with Ganondorf's Fsmash (24%). I did receive massive recoil but how did that happen? The rules of priority should apply here. His move should have beat mine.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Okay someone tell me what just happened:

Playing against a Ganondorf on FG, my tipper Jab 1 (5%) just clashed with Ganondorf's Fsmash (24%). I did receive massive recoil but how did that happen? The rules of priority should apply here. His move should have beat mine.

Well priority on moves has changed. Based on the damage difference, Ganon will have massive frame advantage on you cuz the recoil is based off the difference in %.

 

[Lavani]

Well priority on moves has changed. Based on the damage difference, Ganon will have massive frame advantage on you cuz the recoil is based off the difference in %.

What he means is, if there's more than a 9% difference in attack strength then the stronger attack should just beat out the weaker one instead of clanking.

I've had similar situations happen with Rosa jab v Ganon fsmash so this makes me feel a bit less crazy at least

 

[Cassio]

Rofl at Pikachu beating Sonic again, except without a 50% chaingrab, weaker ledge game, weaker KO power, all while Sonic has KO power, just as much mobility, and two killing throws on him.

Really, cgs were the only reason Pikachu even "beat" Sonic in Brawl, and those are gone.

Cassio, normally I'd say don't change, but for the love of god, just change.

Could've sworn sonics were the ones comparing him to brawl after the last patch .

Pikachu functions different from brawl so I'm not fond of the argument, half the cast could argue a strong MU with him using a similar line of thought. As for my assessment between his recent nerfs and a sense that sonic is overrated I'll admit to bias.

 

[Ffamran]

I had no idea Falco's side B went as far as Fox's.

That's the only Side Special Falco has that goes as far as Fox Illusion. Falco Phase goes the same distance as Fire Bird which covers about a third of FD and Falco Charge goes like... 1/4? With customs, you have a Distant Fire Bird that goes half of FD while default Fire Fox goes about 3/5s or 2/3s of FD. Flying Fox and Twisting Fox also go about half of FD. Yeah... There's a reason why I advocate for Fast Fire Bird when Distant Fire Bird still travels shorter, travels slower than default Fire Bird, and launches about 10 frames later than default Fire Bird. Meanwhile, Fast Fire Bird launches at frame 13 which is about 2/3's faster than default while traveling only slightly less than default because there's the whole momentum thing it has.

Falco's Blaster, Falco Phantasm, and Fire Bird and some of his customs are pretty much slower, weaker, and shorter ranged version than Fox's.

Spoiler: Ranting; nobody wants to read rants

Spoiler

Blaster - because of patch 1.1.0, completely overshadowed by Fox's Impact Blaster... not that it wasn't overshadowed by all projectiles in the game...

Explosive - actually different, cool, huh? Except it shoots on frame 14 and doesn't actually hit until frame 44. It's Sheik's Gravity Grenade, but without the ability to control the detonation... It's a freaking gun, pull the trigger again, dammit!

Burst - smaller hitbox, less range, does less damage overall since it only does 2% up close and 1% far while Fox's does 3% up close, 2% mid-range, and 1.4% far. And as of patch 1.1.0, it has the same end lag as Fox's default and Impact Blaster. Yes, the same end lag for less damage, less range, and slightly faster firing rate.

Falco Phantasm - we covered that, but it boils down to 4% more on the ground and ground targets, 3% more on air targets, 3 frames faster - used to be 4, but patch 1.0.8 had to change that -, and spikes. In return? Half the hitbox isn't even part of the travel distance while Fox's is only missing like 1.5 blocks or 15% of the travel distance. There's a reason why it's so easy to hit Falco out of Falco Phantasm.

Falco Phase - actually different since it's just a long roll. It's probably the safest option since while it doesn't do damage, it makes Falco completely intangible until the move ends.

Falco Charge - most comparable to Fox Burst except it has a sweet-spot that does 12% and a sour-spot that does 4%... Did I mention it cuts the distance to about 1/4 of FD? It kills like 70% later than Side Smash which is 4 frames faster and has a sour-spot that kills 560% earlier. Yeah... He can't even stall at the ledge like Fox can with Fox Burst.

Luigi and Dr. Mario? Luigi only has a Bouncing Fireball to mimic Mario's default and Dr. Mario while having similar options benefits from them differently since he works differently and because unlike Falco, his and Mario's customs were just left as is. Lucina and Dark Pit are just benefiting from the same options because Lucina plays a similar game to Marth and gets the same benefits as him and Dark Pit's too damn similar, so it doesn't matter. Yes, let's change Fox's projectiles, but leave Falco's alone. At the very least change it so Burst Blaster has 36 total frames instead of 39 like Fox's default and Impact Blaster.

Oh, and while "Wolfifying" Falco's Bair and pretty much wrecking Falco Phantasm, they leave Fire Bird alone. Why? It's not even a different version. It's strictly an inferior version of Fox's Fire Fox. Oh, it hits multiple times, yeah, but even with autolink angles on the later half of it, the charging and launch will knock people out. Wolf's autolink angles worked since he launched at frame 23, so little charging, autolink to drag opponents, and a finisher. Oh, and in Melee, not only did it travel shorter, it didn't have a hitbox while charging (like Distant Fire Bird), so you can kick Falco's ***. The very least they could have done was make it have electrical elements or have blue fire just to be different. Hell, they could have cut off 10 frames of charging, so it would launch at frame 34 instead of 44, lose the finishing hit, and just make it just hit you multiple times and does damage without a lot of knockback. Just damage... The knockback is already stupidly sad and the priority on it is sad when the strongest hit, the launch, does 3%. Everything else does 2%.

There's a point where if we rated recoveries alone as moves, so no wall jumps, jump heights, air speed, etc., I would put Falco's below Little Mac and Jigglypuff. At least Rising Uppercut, Jolt Haymaker, Slip Counter, and Pound actually hit properly or do enough knockback and damage where it's not pathetic. Freaking no hitbox recovery moves are better than Falco's since they work properly and get the job done. You see Falco forced to use Fire Bird and you wreck him. It's easier than dealing with ROB. You see Falco overshoot with Falco Phantasm. Walk a bit forward and wreck him since there's no hitbox. Hell, you could stand in place and throw out a hitbox and he's going to get wrecked. That's how freaking bad his Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm are. Well, Fire Bird, since Falco Phantasm has some redeeming qualities...

 

[Ghostbone]

Okay someone tell me what just happened:

Playing against a Ganondorf on FG, my tipper Jab 1 (5%) just clashed with Ganondorf's Fsmash (24%). I did receive massive recoil but how did that happen? The rules of priority should apply here. His move should have beat mine.

Does ganon's f-smash have a sourspot?
If you clashed with that it makes sense.

 

[Blobface]

Okay someone tell me what just happened:

Playing against a Ganondorf on FG, my tipper Jab 1 (5%) just clashed with Ganondorf's Fsmash (24%). I did receive massive recoil but how did that happen? The rules of priority should apply here. His move should have beat mine.

Er, I think if hitboxes overlap without any hurtboxes overlapping (Ganon's F-smash is disjointed), traditional priority rules are ignored and instead the "losing" player will just receive recoil. Not totally sure though.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Okay someone tell me what just happened:

Playing against a Ganondorf on FG, my tipper Jab 1 (5%) just clashed with Ganondorf's Fsmash (24%). I did receive massive recoil but how did that happen? The rules of priority should apply here. His move should have beat mine.

Weird. Something similar happened when I was using MK, where my F-tilt clanked with Link's F-Smash.

 

[A_Kae]

Does ganon's f-smash have a sourspot?
If you clashed with that it makes sense.

It's 24% on the entire move.

Er, I think if hitboxes overlap without any hurtboxes overlapping (Ganon's F-smash is disjointed), traditional priority rules are ignored and instead the "losing" player will just receive recoil. Not totally sure though.

Disjoint makes no difference in priority.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've had the weird recoil thing against heavy attacks too... Wonder if it's related to disjoints?

 

[Vipermoon]

Well priority on moves has changed. Based on the damage difference, Ganon will have massive frame advantage on you cuz the recoil is based off the difference in %.

Where did you hear this? I've definitely seen moves beat other moves.

What he means is, if there's more than a 9% difference in attack strength then the stronger attack should just beat out the weaker one instead of clanking.

Slight correction; it's 9% or more (more than 8%). I'm sure you meant to say that.

Er, I think if hitboxes overlap without any hurtboxes overlapping (Ganon's F-smash is disjointed), traditional priority rules are ignored and instead the "losing" player will just receive recoil. Not totally sure though.

How can we be sure Ganondorf's Fsmash is disjointed? We were at max range from each other so there's definitely the possibility of a slight disjoint on his Fsmash. But I think you could be right about this hurtbox idea. This is something I thought of but never heard of these situations in previous games.

Disjoint makes no difference in priority.

But how do you know? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority This article does not describe this instance (well it does when describing the Marth and Ike's Fsmash instance but they were within 8% range in the example). Think about it, how can a disjointed move beat another disjointed move if there were no hurtbox's to get hit by them? I'm starting to believe that when two disjointed attacks connect, no matter what the difference in percent is, the attacks will cancel each other out and the difference in percent will only determine recoil. And because I can't imagine any other way for this to work, this is probably true for previous games.

Edit: I distinctly remember Ganon's Fsmash also being cancelled. This is why I'm not really considering the possibility that it did beat my jab and I just received recoil as a punishment. Because if it truly beat my move, I would have scene Ganon continue through his Fsmash animation. I wish I saved the replay.

 

[thehard]

So if I'm not mistaken, a Duck Hunt Dog (DandyPenguin) got 13th at SSC (I think MVD has dropped him?). Apparently beating Poke and Mr. E along the way.

And there's the Top 8.

 

[Amadeus9]

Meta knight in the top 8 of a major... Oh how far we have come

 

[DanGR]

It doesn't matter what the percentages are on the attacks if the weaker attack isn't overlapping a hurtbox. Ganon's fsmash could do 400% and it'd still clash cancel with a disjointed [sword] hitbox with no hurtbox present.

Edit: You can replicate that Ganon fsmash vs. jab scenario pretty easily in training mode, if you wanna look at it again.

 

[Sinister Slush]

ESAM pulled out Yoshi to prove to the world he's bad this tournament?
Faith and Begorrah!

But yeah Sheik beats everyone anyways, her dumb disjoints absolutely wrecks Yoshi and I still find it odd Sheik mains try to say it's an even MU.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK in top 8? Man I gotta learn to stop tier whoring...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Will switched or even just used Sheik the entire set in most of his matches from what little I saw yesterday.
Think he lost game 1 to Tantalus's ROB and just went sheik and fair'd needle BF all day for an example.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

It doesn't matter what the percentages are on the attacks if the weaker attack isn't overlapping a hurtbox. Ganon's fsmash could do 400% and it'd still clash cancel with a disjointed [sword] hitbox with no hurtbox present.

Edit: You can replicate that Ganon fsmash vs. jab scenario pretty easily in training mode, if you wanna look at it again.

This doesn't just apply to disjoints though. In a match I was playing just now, Ganon's F-Smash clanked with captain falcon's jab despite the captain falcon player facing away from ganon. Captain Falcon's raptor boost also clanked with his jab.

 

[Ghostbone]

Er, I think if hitboxes overlap without any hurtboxes overlapping (Ganon's F-smash is disjointed), traditional priority rules are ignored and instead the "losing" player will just receive recoil. Not totally sure though.

Yea I've seen this happen

It's easy to reproduce, MK f-smash against sonic spindash, Sonic's spindash will clank with the f-smash and sonic will receive recoil lag while MK will complete f-smash as normal for a free punish.

Edit: I distinctly remember Ganon's Fsmash also being cancelled. This is why I'm not really considering the possibility that it did beat my jab and I just received recoil as a punishment. Because if it truly beat my move, I would have scene Ganon continue through his Fsmash animation. I wish I saved the replay.

Recreated it in training mode, Ganon just finished his f-smash as normal and Marth went through massive lag.

 

[A_Kae]

But how do you know? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority This article does not describe this instance (well it does when describing the Marth and Ike's Fsmash instance but they were within 8% range in the example). Think about it, how can a disjointed move beat another disjointed move if there were no hurtbox's to get hit by them? I'm starting to believe that when two disjointed attacks connect, no matter what the difference in percent is, the attacks will cancel each other out and the difference in percent will only determine recoil. And because I can't imagine any other way for this to work, this is probably true for previous games.

Edit: I distinctly remember Ganon's Fsmash also being cancelled. This is why I'm not really considering the possibility that it did beat my jab and I just received recoil as a punishment. Because if it truly beat my move, I would have scene Ganon continue through his Fsmash animation. I wish I saved the replay.

Why would disjoint matter? Priority is only about hitbox-hitbox interactions, not hitbox-hurtbox.

Look at Marth's tipped f-smash vs jab 1. Jab will always be cancelled, and f-smash won't. 18% vs 3/5%.

Edit: And Ganondorf's f-smash vs Marth's jab 1 results in jab getting cancelled, and f-smash continuing.

 

[Vipermoon]

Recreated it in training mode, Ganon just finished his f-smash as normal and Marth went through massive lag.

Why would disjoint matter? Priority is only about hitbox-hitbox interactions, not hitbox-hurtbox.

Look at Marth's tipped f-smash vs jab 1. Jab will always be cancelled, and f-smash won't. 18% vs 3/5%.

Edit: And Ganondorf's f-smash vs Marth's jab 1 results in jab getting cancelled, and f-smash continuing.

Okay thanks guys. So my memory was wrong, Ganon's Fsmash did end up finishing (no wonder I didn't remember getting punished).

This means everything still followed the rules of priority. My jab was overpowered by his Fsmash and because my hurtbox wasn't there to get hit I went through the recoil.

Now I want to know: what is the formula for determining the exact amount of recoil (in frames)? I doubt we know this one.