Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[oldkingcroz]

@Wintropy
I meant in a customs on environment, heh. Palutina is a really unique character, and has the potential to be pretty good amongst the combo oriented grab heavy metagame.

And- yes- as a whole, I meant Pit gets very little out of his special moves when compared to most of the other characters. Especially when you compare him to his PM incarnation, where arrows and his Up B shield attack are vital to his gameplan. The only other character on this thread's top that has poor specials would probably be Falcon, but even he has a side b that kills at 100% and a *custom* down b that is terrifying. Then if you look at Sheik, Meta Knight, Luigi, Pikachu, Pacman, and the like rely and make the most of their B imput. Pits, kinda just, a step behind in that department.
And those other traits hold him lack as well.


@ Pazx
The vs. MU will probably never be agreed upon. Both of them just crap all over each other in the advantage stage/ recovery, both have solid neutral (that respectably counters each other), and both have safe aerials for pressure. They both can chain fairs, heavily use reflectors and projectiles, have mediocre tilts/jab, and benefit from grab combos. Ness's kill throw works a good 25% sooner than ROB's, but this is such a dynamic matchup, and when they counter many of the other person's strategies, I do believe the better player with a stronger knowledge of the MU wins the fight, for this one.

 

[Pyr]

it is for both players

imagine a hill where both sides are just as steep and both players are pushing towards the top

it becomes purely a battle of skill, whereas luigi can admittedly cheese out some MUs and effectively have a "shallower slope"

But that's not what an uphill battle is... An uphill battle is literally fighting someone higher up on a hill, meaning that you can't hit vital parts of their body (chest, head) while they can easily hit yours. Since a 50:50 is literally even, it can be seen that both people are on a level playing field, thus the confusion.

As for Mario and Luigi, it's much more useful to fight a bunch of people on even ground then it is to fight the town Jester while on a higher part of a hill, then have to fight the Knight God of the Stars, who lays before you higher up on the same hill, multiple times.

I can see Mario as better then Luigi overall.

 

[Pazx]

constantly updating tier list (21/10 great scott):

no real order within tiers the further down you go

Spoiler

Top Tier

A+:


A:


A-:


High Tier

B+:


B:


B-:
/

Upper Mid Tier (still highly relevant!)

C+:


C:


C-:


Lower Mid Tier (fading to irrelevance)

D+:


D:


D-:


Low Tier

E+:


E:


E-:

UNDERSTOOD! I only have one inquiry, one related to G&W.

In the discussion of G&W (more in particular, the tier list) you state that viability drops at around D. Now, if we're putting G&W in there, I can't totally agree! Mostly due to his placement at EVO in a metagame that actively hurts him (I'm assuming this list is defaults, yeah?) I believe he is a lot stronger than what you would put here. While I can understand not wanting to overrate him, I would say...perhaps somewhere in the letter C? I can't figure out what subsection (+? -? That's the hard part!) I just find his placing to be more than, say, a large coincidence.

Not that I think he's an amazingly outstanding character, but he's been discussed in prior and he seems to be largely scorned and underestimated. From what I've seen and used of him, he seems okay. Not optimal, but okay.

Other than that it's mostly agreeable, which is the good news, although Roy being 2 segments down from Marth kind of miffs me (my gut tells me it should be one or in the same segment, but it's just a gut feeling so I won't press on it, consider it intuition and nothing more.)

I'm also unsure of Mario > Luigi but I'll take some more time to stew over it now that it's been brought up. Adieu! (Also grats on the first real elaborate full tier list of the thread!)

I wasn't really sure if the gap between C and D or the gap between D and D- was a more significant gap in viability. I think the C/D gap is more pronounced and larger but the D/D- gap although more subtle really is a gap between functional and not so functional characters. D(+) could be considered lower mid rather than low, and the characters in it could certainly be considered a level of viability that could be relevant at smaller tournaments.

G&W really is held back by his weight in my opinion, as well as a few other things. Regi performed exceptionally at EVO but the character has few other results. From what @kyokoro_pamuyo has said Regi doesn't actually get any results in his home country so while I wouldn't call his EVO performance a fluke it does mean that the best representatives of the character don't have anything resembling consistent success. I think you may be right though in that I may have placed this character on the wrong side of the divide between C and D. Having played against and seen the character in action I can't really see him being any worse than the characters in C-, but I also have a lot of faith in Doctor Mario and the rest of D tier was largely affected by buffs that make them very legitimate character choices. If I were to revise this later then I think G&W will join the C tier or the top of D tier will become part of mid tier.

Re: Mario and Luigi, I think Mario is better than Diddy overall. I think his top tier matchups are almost a direct upgrade to Diddy who has a few that he might win more handily but it's largely against the same characters Mario already has an advantage over. Overall Diddy loses more and loses harder. I then think Diddy and Luigi are very very close in viability and general goodness, but Luigi just has a few more genuinely bad matchups. Luigi and Diddy could probably be in the same tier subsection, though. Their top tier matchups are very different, with Diddy doing better against ZSS/Rosa/Wario/Sheik and Luigi being better in most of the remaining matchups. The question then becomes how much do you consider Luigi's difficult matchups and how important is the Sheik matchup in general. Overall I view the two as having very very similar power levels but Diddy being more suitable for solo maining and that's enough to push him ahead of Luigi.

Out of curiosity, @ Pazx what do you think of the Greninja/R.O.B MU? That one is basically my personal hell but that's more about me than Greninja being bad at it I think, I was curious to hear what a ROB player thinks of it.

I haven't played a competent Greninja with ROB, sadly. Post patch I haven't actually explored Greninja at all, so I'm not sure how the buffs affect the matchup. If Shuriken is as good as people say it is then this matchup is looking very very bad, otherwise it's probably pretty manageable. ROB likes characters with Greninja's physics, and I think Nair outspaces everything, although it would be cutting it pretty fine. Does the Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel get Greninja out of dthrow uair?

I think his Luigi matchup is noticeably worse (not that Diddy does that well himself), to the point where I would advise Pika players to pick a different character against him. He also struggles vs. Ness and other niche characters (Ike, Olimar) which to my knowledge don't give Diddy much trouble. He is susceptible to counterpicking despite having several really important positive MUs (Fox, ZSS, Rosa). Diddy doesn't really lose noticeably to anyone despite not winning noticeably either (which makes both characters a bit like their Brawl incarnations, funnily enough).

Olimar's matchup vs Diddy was his original claim to relevance. I also think Ness beats Diddy pretty convincingly, but I haven't played the Pika matchup so I can't comment there. I would agree that Diddy does better against Luigi than Pika does though, but it's probably still in Luigi's favour.

Tink is most certainly not C tier, so I'll assume you put him there out of lack of knowledge of the character.

if we're going only by results, sure it makes sense. But there are a good handful of characters who could do very well in a competitive environment, but dont have the players to show for it. I generally consider these more or less an exception to the rule of "results" because otherwise there's pretty much no way to put them on a tier list at all. Or they'd just be in F tier, which wouldn't make sense.

Let's not make assumptions. I have experience with and against Tink and I originally thought he was easily top 20, pushing top 15. Patches have let other characters go past him though, the C+ gang are overall better characters than him (largely due to patches) and Megaman boasts relevant top tier matchups (Luigi, Ness) as well as more dominant low tier matchups. FWIW Mega and Tink were originally C+ but I felt there was a gap somewhere, perhaps it should have been after DK rather than Gunner. I assume your biggest issue is the characters in C+ tier being above Toon Link. I assure you they are above him not because Tink is bad but because these characters are legitimately good, and you should probably re-evaluate how you feel about them in general. I invite you to re-read my bullet point where I stated that I don't care for posts such as yours that question character placements without providing any reasoning to the contrary.

@ Pazx
The vs. MU will probably never be agreed upon. Both of them just crap all over each other in the advantage stage/ recovery, both have solid neutral (that respectably counters each other), and both have safe aerials for pressure. They both can chain fairs, heavily use reflectors and projectiles, have mediocre tilts/jab, and benefit from grab combos. Ness's kill throw works a good 25% sooner than ROB's, but this is such a dynamic matchup, and when they counter many of the other person's strategies, I do believe the better player with a stronger knowledge of the MU wins the fight, for this one.

Ness's throw killing a small amount earlier doesn't mean much until you consider just how much free damage he gets from juggles. If ROB is offstage or in the air at all he is going to get hit by PK Thunder multiple times because he simply has an immensely difficult time getting through it. ROB's juggles are good too of course but they are nowhere near as braindead simple as Ness's. I think ROB wins neutral but Ness's advantage is so stupid in this matchup that it forces me off ROB unless I'm really outplaying my opponent. Similarly, when my opponent is ROB I switch to my far less polished Ness and have an easier time of it.

 

[Ghostbone]

I still doubt mario is better than luigi, sure luigi loses a few more matchups, but the fact that mario has almost exclusively 50:50s makes it still an uphill battle for him to win any sort of tournament whereas Luigi strides through many MUs with ease and only has troubles with some specific tricky ones.

lol at Mario having mostly 50/50's

Mario destroys most of the cast with his mobility, ease of damage racking, frametraps into kill moves (air-dodge reads into f-smash, or just invincible up-smash on anyone when they're above/behind you) etc.

 

[Ikes]

I wasn't really sure if the gap between C and D or the gap between D and D- was a more significant gap in viability. I think the C/D gap is more pronounced and larger but the D/D- gap although more subtle really is a gap between functional and not so functional characters. D(+) could be considered lower mid rather than low, and the characters in it could certainly be considered a level of viability that could be relevant at smaller tournaments.

G&W really is held back by his weight in my opinion, as well as a few other things. Regi performed exceptionally at EVO but the character has few other results. From what @kyokoro_pamuyo has said Regi doesn't actually get any results in his home country so while I wouldn't call his EVO performance a fluke it does mean that the best representatives of the character don't have anything resembling consistent success. I think you may be right though in that I may have placed this character on the wrong side of the divide between C and D. Having played against and seen the character in action I can't really see him being any worse than the characters in C-, but I also have a lot of faith in Doctor Mario and the rest of D tier was largely affected by buffs that make them very legitimate character choices. If I were to revise this later then I think G&W will join the C tier or the top of D tier will become part of mid tier.

Re: Mario and Luigi, I think Mario is better than Diddy overall. I think his top tier matchups are almost a direct upgrade to Diddy who has a few that he might win more handily but it's largely against the same characters Mario already has an advantage over. Overall Diddy loses more and loses harder. I then think Diddy and Luigi are very very close in viability and general goodness, but Luigi just has a few more genuinely bad matchups. Luigi and Diddy could probably be in the same tier subsection, though. Their top tier matchups are very different, with Diddy doing better against ZSS/Rosa/Wario/Sheik and Luigi being better in most of the remaining matchups. The question then becomes how much do you consider Luigi's difficult matchups and how important is the Sheik matchup in general. Overall I view the two as having very very similar power levels but Diddy being more suitable for solo maining and that's enough to push him ahead of Luigi.



I haven't played a competent Greninja with ROB, sadly. Post patch I haven't actually explored Greninja at all, so I'm not sure how the buffs affect the matchup. If Shuriken is as good as people say it is then this matchup is looking very very bad, otherwise it's probably pretty manageable. ROB likes characters with Greninja's physics, and I think Nair outspaces everything, although it would be cutting it pretty fine. Does the Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel get Greninja out of dthrow uair?



Olimar's matchup vs Diddy was his original claim to relevance. I also think Ness beats Diddy pretty convincingly, but I haven't played the Pika matchup so I can't comment there. I would agree that Diddy does better against Luigi than Pika does though, but it's probably still in Luigi's favour.



Let's not make assumptions. I have experience with and against Tink and I originally thought he was easily top 20, pushing top 15. Patches have let other characters go past him though, the C+ gang are overall better characters than him (largely due to patches) and Megaman boasts relevant top tier matchups (Luigi, Ness) as well as more dominant low tier matchups. FWIW Mega and Tink were originally C+ but I felt there was a gap somewhere, perhaps it should have been after DK rather than Gunner. I assume your biggest issue is the characters in C+ tier being above Toon Link. I assure you they are above him not because Tink is bad but because these characters are legitimately good, and you should probably re-evaluate how you feel about them in general. I invite you to re-read my bullet point where I stated that I don't care for posts such as yours that question character placements without providing any reasoning to the contrary.



Ness's throw killing a small amount earlier doesn't mean much until you consider just how much free damage he gets from juggles. If ROB is offstage or in the air at all he is going to get hit by PK Thunder multiple times because he simply has an immensely difficult time getting through it. ROB's juggles are good too of course but they are nowhere near as braindead simple as Ness's. I think ROB wins neutral but Ness's advantage is so stupid in this matchup that it forces me off ROB unless I'm really outplaying my opponent. Similarly, when my opponent is ROB I switch to my far less polished Ness and have an easier time of it.

Slightly updated tier list:

Spoiler

Top Tier

S:


S-:


A+:


A:


A-:



High Tier

B:
/


Mid Tier

C+:


C:


C-:



Low Tier

D:


D-:

you put DK and Gunner above Tink. Unless this is customs on, that makes next to no sense.
no, toon link belongs in the higher half of B.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

you put DK and Gunner above Tink. Unless this is customs on, that makes next to no sense.
no, toon link belongs in the higher half of B.

Name one notable Toon Link rep who has placed well in tourney.

 

[FullMoon]

I haven't played a competent Greninja with ROB, sadly. Post patch I haven't actually explored Greninja at all, so I'm not sure how the buffs affect the matchup. If Shuriken is as good as people say it is then this matchup is looking very very bad, otherwise it's probably pretty manageable. ROB likes characters with Greninja's physics, and I think Nair outspaces everything, although it would be cutting it pretty fine. Does the Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel get Greninja out of dthrow uair?

I just tested it and from what I can see he can't, or at least not consistently. Greninja's shurikens honestly don't feel that good for this MU at all. His high short hop makes SH shurikens go right over ROB's head when he's standing and gyro will often block shuriken on the ground. Greninja can take the gyro and start pelting ROB with shuriken though, I guess. Greninja's main thing is that he can rack damage on ROB really quickly thanks to his huge hitbox and slow aerials, plus Up-Smash and Up-Tilt being disjointed.

I just noticed I tend to have problems with the item based MUs like ROB and Diddy. I really need to work on fixing that lol.

 

[san.]

you put DK and Gunner above Tink. Unless this is customs on, that makes next to no sense.
no, toon link belongs in the higher half of B.

I think DK may very well deserve that spot with the new cargo mechanics, and I assume miis have their specials otherwise Brawler wouldn't be so high.

I think the problem is where to put Tink rather than DK and Gunner being too high. We haven't really concluded how much the changes affect both characters and Gunner isn't used enough for non-users to really understand too much, but Cargo uthrow uair kills for DK and large uair+missile buffs (despite grenade balancing) are great benefits to the characters.

 

[Djent]

Olimar's matchup vs Diddy was his original claim to relevance. I also think Ness beats Diddy pretty convincingly, but I haven't played the Pika matchup so I can't comment there. I would agree that Diddy does better against Luigi than Pika does though, but it's probably still in Luigi's favour.

Olimar had some impressive early results against Diddy, but I was under the impression that the MU wasn't considered "bad" for him anymore. I could be mistaken, however. Ness might actually beat Diddy, although it's close enough that Shaky still got double-eliminated by him at EVO. My hunch is that it can't be that bad if stuff like that happens, but again, results are not a perfect argument.

 

[Ikes]

Name one notable Toon Link rep who has placed well in tourney.

give me a gunner that's placed well without customs then.

 

[Ghostbone]

I think DK may very well deserve that spot with the new cargo mechanics, and I assume miis have their specials otherwise Brawler wouldn't be so high.

People don't actually know how good new DK is.

He has the highest grab reward in the game on a character with amazing grab range.
That puts you at the top of mid tier at least. (think Brawl D3)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

give me a gunner that's placed well without customs then.

Mik! And Snow have both used Gunner at Xanadu, and placed well.
Your move.

​

 

[san.]

People don't actually know how good new DK is.

He has the highest grab reward in the game on a character with amazing grab range.
That puts you at the top of mid tier at least. (think Brawl D3)

DK, Charizard, and Ike have devastating true combo grab games and it's quite nice. I only tried out DK's for a little bit and it wasn't as OP as I thought it was going to be. Ike's and charizard's both combo into death and lead into pretty advantageous 50/50 scenario's, where Ike's uair lasts 16 frames LOL. Whereas DK's just kills but once they get over 100, it doesn't feel like I can trap it as easily. (at least cargo bthrow starts to kill with a little more %).

 

[LancerStaff]

And- yes- as a whole, I meant Pit gets very little out of his special moves when compared to most of the other characters. Especially when you compare him to his PM incarnation, where arrows and his Up B shield attack are vital to his gameplan. The only other character on this thread's top that has poor specials would probably be Falcon, but even he has a side b that kills at 100% and a *custom* down b that is terrifying. Then if you look at Sheik, Meta Knight, Luigi, Pikachu, Pacman, and the like rely and make the most of their B imput. Pits, kinda just, a step behind in that department.
And those other traits hold him lack as well.

Pit's arrows can beat out any projectile in the game if used right. There's more then a few matchups where Pit uses 'em to outcamp his opponent... In the air, I think they're faster lag-wise then Water Shuriken. And unlike PM, they curve much tighter and can potentially be a faster projectile with some charge. They're much better at tripping up opponents offstage, and they're more for breaking up campers then actually camping himself.

Fspecial, yeah, it's mostly a counter. But it's also great at covering an opponent's landing options since it dashes forward. Goes even further with a little tech, but I digress... Best use is probably recovery because of the super armor. More on that in a sec.

Dspecial is pretty useless. There's applications for using it for aerial defense, but nothing major. In matchups against characters unwilling to go offstage it can kinda be used as an easy out of sorts and go for the ledge instead of risking a landing. Best use is gimping particular recoveries, and it's not especially explored either.

Uspecial is solely for recovery. Not a bad thing, considering that it combined with everything else makes Pit just about untouchable offstage. Reaches all the way from the bottom blastzone to the ledge, can be stalled out with jumps and arrows, has the SA assisted dash which doesn't even put him in helplessness... The only thing a Pit should be getting hit by is another Pit or a projectile.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK, Charizard, and Ike have devastating true combo grab games and it's quite nice. I only tried out DK's for a little bit and it wasn't as OP as I thought it was going to be. Ike's and charizard's both combo into death and lead into pretty advantageous 50/50 scenario's, where Ike's uair lasts 16 frames LOL.

Ike's Uair may be the most underrated change this patch. At first I couldn't tell if increased base knockback and less growth was good or bad but it's clear now that it was a significant buff. For a move that doesn't look like it should kill it packs one hell of a punch.
Oh and it can be combo'd into. Which is crazy.

 

[Browny]

It's really upsetting when a top player in ZeRo releases his video about Mewtwo and makes claims that are just completely wrong about Mewtwo's kill throws being weak, not even beating Sonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quEhrISeCjg

Mewtwos uthrow is overall the strongest kill throw in the game, only beaten by Ness bthrow at the edge, or charizard uthrow on a platform althought to be fair, mewtwo will kill earlier if on a platform himself. In general though Mewtwo will kill earlier than those two and his bthrow at the edge is still very strong.

Sonics bthrow isnt included because its really weak now.

I wish people would do some research before making videos with claims like that, it doesnt take long to test it.

 

[Ghostbone]

DK, Charizard, and Ike have devastating true combo grab games and it's quite nice. I only tried out DK's for a little bit and it wasn't as OP as I thought it was going to be. Ike's and charizard's both combo into death and lead into pretty advantageous 50/50 scenario's, where Ike's uair lasts 16 frames LOL. Whereas DK's just kills but once they get over 100, it doesn't feel like I can trap it as easily. (at least cargo bthrow starts to kill with a little more %).

At %s above the true combo range, you can still cargo up-throw from the ground, then double jump up-air if the don't airdodge, or bait it out and up-air if they do. The 50/50 scenarios are really threatening imo.

And DK gets more reward off early grabs than they do, cargo up-throw > up-b is actually disgusting. (and later he gets cargo-throw > nair, fair, uair or punch, obviously fall speed dependent).
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if DK has an advantage vs fox because of how bad he murders him off a grab now

 

[Nobie]

@Wintermelon43

I think I realized something reading the past couple of pages, which is that most of the time people try to explain neutral before explaining advantage/disadvantage, but that's actually doing it backwards. Advantage/disadvantage are much easier ideas to understand compared to neutral, and once you get those two down, neutral somewhat naturally follows. Here's my stab at it:

Imagine you're in a fight. Would you rather be punching someone in the face, or getting punched? Naturally you'd prefer the former, a position where you're at an advantage.

However, this idea extends more to than who's getting hit. Would you rather be backed into a corner, or backing someone into a corner? Would you rather be standing with your back towards the edge of a cliff, or forcing someone towards the edge?

All of these positions involve someone who has fewer options available to them. The guy with his back to the cliff can't go backwards, of course, so he has to somehow get around his foe. However, this also makes him relatively more predictable. In contrast, the person forcing the opponent towards the edge can attack if he chooses to, or walk back. He has the luxury of more choices.

One person is in an advantageous position, the other is in a disadvantageous position. "Neutral," then, is when neither person feels like they have an advantage or disadvantage. Neither one is getting hit, neither has their backs to a wall or has to worry about a 500-ft drop. Both fighters are fully in control of themselves, and their goal is to get the other one into a disadvantageous position.

I think you can see how this translates to Smash Bros. Some characters are better at taking advantage of a lead, such as Ganondorf. Others are good at getting out of trouble, like Meta Knight. Others are good at neutral, the act of jockeying for position, and that's where Marth lies.

Marth has a few qualities that make him strong in neutral. He has a good run speed. He can move forwards and backwards quickly through the air. He has the fastest walk speed in the game, which allows him to quickly reposition himself without committing to a run. He has a sword, and if fist meets sword, sword usually wins. In other words, he loves if you try to attack his attack. Most importantly, because of how Marth is designed where he hits extra hard when hitting someone with the tip of the sword, he gets heavily rewarded for what comes naturally to his character in the first place.

This is where the idea of "footsies" comes in. The term derives from what kids would do at a lunch table. One kid tries to kick another kid's legs. If a kid misses, then the other kid is free to kick the other's extended leg. Fighting games are kind of similar. If one character tries to punch another, but he misses, his arm is now extended forward, and his opponent can "punch his punch" back. Or, if he anticipates a punch is coming, he can hit more quickly, preventing the attack from happening in the first place. When combined with the threat of a cliff or a wall, two opponents will try to trick the other into overextending or doing something predictable, and retaliating accordingly.

Marth, as a swordsman and the one who's most specifically designed to fight like a swordsman, loves this realm, because rather than punching your punch, he can slice it. He can throw out this mostly invincible sword strike, and beat whatever it is you're trying to do, and he can do it quickly. Combined with his strong yet subtle mobility, he can be a menace when both characters are in neutral.

You'll sometimes see people say Marth is "bad at neutral," but this is mostly because they don't understand what neutral is. They think it's just about who can more reliably get the first hit in, and then whose attacks can lead to more combos, but neutral is just as much about potential damage as it is about actual damage.

Let's go back to the example with two people fighting. They're both in "neutral," standing at the center of their fighting area. However, both want the opponent to be at the edge of the cliff, because as great as it can be to throw 20 punches at someone, it's even better to throw 1 punch that knocks them off the edge of a cliff. The potential for greater advantage, and the fear of getting hit, become tools just as important as who actually successfully connects.

Marth, with his particular qualities, can often times force the opponent towards the ledge without ever actually hitting the opponent. By just walking forward and backwards and threatening with his sword, he can make the opponent feel uncomfortable enough to roll backwards. Then they're at the ledge, Marth has his wide arcs and high-damage tippers, and he can be really scary.

That's what makes Marth good in neutral, and good at footsies. He has a weapon and a style that is especially conducive to jockeying for position, and while he's not the best at getting combos or doing heavy amounts of damage off of small hits, he doesn't mind that too much either, because neutral is where he's best, and if the opponent wants to bring it back to neutral, then he's all the better for it.

 

[san.]

At %s above the true combo range, you can still cargo up-throw from the ground, then double jump up-air if the don't airdodge, or bait it out and up-air if they do. The 50/50 scenarios are really threatening imo.

And DK gets more reward off early grabs than they do, cargo up-throw > up-b is actually disgusting. (and later he gets cargo-throw > nair, fair, uair or punch, obviously fall speed dependent).
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if DK has an advantage vs fox because of how bad he murders him off a grab now

If you can do that, then you're correct. DK's uair is a little weaker so I didn't think it killed.

 

[Pyr]

At %s above the true combo range, you can still cargo up-throw from the ground, then double jump up-air if the don't airdodge, or bait it out and up-air if they do. The 50/50 scenarios are really threatening imo.

And DK gets more reward off early grabs than they do, cargo up-throw > up-b is actually disgusting. (and later he gets cargo-throw > nair, fair, uair or punch, obviously fall speed dependent).
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if DK has an advantage vs fox because of how bad he murders him off a grab now

Isn't DK's Neutral-B super hitbox (near the shoulder) still a thing?

Cause... Damn. That's going to be hilarious with the new Cargo throw.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I went DK. I just really didn't know the matchup. His mixup and punish game are so real.

What class of Ryu are talking about?

 

[Ikes]

you know what?

needles need their ranged reduced to like a third of what it is now.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

People don't actually know how good new DK is.

He has the highest grab reward in the game on a character with amazing grab range.
That puts you at the top of mid tier at least. (think Brawl D3)

Best grab games in Smash 4 imo (not ordered):
Ike, Ness, Luigi, DK, Charizard, Lucas, Kirby, Link, and Mario.
Reasons:
Ike: Dthrow/Uthrow to Fair works for a really long time and Uthrow Uair kills at unholy percents.
Ness: Bthrow for obvious reasons and reward on Dthrow + Positional advantage Fthrow. And he can confirm grab off of PK fire.
Luigi:
DK: Ghostbone summed it up nicely
Charizard: His grabs are above average in terms of range and speed and that Uthrow kills earlier than Ness's Bthrow in some cases. And Dthrow combos well.
Lucas: Now that he can confirm grabs from Dtilt and Zair he can have less of a risk factor to go with that insane reward on ALL his throws.
Kirby: That Fthrow buff is amazing. Fthrow Fair does a solid 17 damage and works for a long time. Not to mention that quick pummel.
Link: his grab range is incredible now. And he gets 50 50s off of Dthrow now, which is very easy to get thanks to the aforementioned range. His grab game literally went from one of the worst to one of the best from that one patch.

 

[Marrow]

I have a question for Charizard players: Is dthrow->uair reliable now that you can act a few frames faster? If so, then that is incredibly good then.

Down throw -> up air definitely isn't the next Hoo Hah, but I find it useful for when d/b/u-throw -> fair stops working. I don't use it a lot to net the kill, though.

 

[Ikes]

Mik! And Snow have both used Gunner at Xanadu, and placed well.
Your move.

​

Artemis drowned in pools at EVO but has other good tourney placings elsewhere IIRC

not sure, hard to find any games of hers. probably mostly locals and smaller regionals.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

At %s above the true combo range, you can still cargo up-throw from the ground, then double jump up-air if the don't airdodge, or bait it out and up-air if they do. The 50/50 scenarios are really threatening imo.

And DK gets more reward off early grabs than they do, cargo up-throw > up-b is actually disgusting. (and later he gets cargo-throw > nair, fair, uair or punch, obviously fall speed dependent).
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if DK has an advantage vs fox because of how bad he murders him off a grab now

Fox still destroys DK but at least we have something.

What class of Ryu are talking about?

The kind of Ryu that's really good at mixing up focus attack and plays the neutral right.

 

[Ghostbone]

ZSS has close to the best d-throw follow-ups in the game but I guess we can't equate that with a good grab game since her grab itself is close to the worst.

 

[Man Li Gi]

People don't actually know how good new DK is.

He has the highest grab reward in the game on a character with amazing grab range.
That puts you at the top of mid tier at least. (think Brawl D3)

At %s above the true combo range, you can still cargo up-throw from the ground, then double jump up-air if the don't airdodge, or bait it out and up-air if they do. The 50/50 scenarios are really threatening imo.

And DK gets more reward off early grabs than they do, cargo up-throw > up-b is actually disgusting. (and later he gets cargo-throw > nair, fair, uair or punch, obviously fall speed dependent).
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if DK has an advantage vs fox because of how bad he murders him off a grab now

*sigh* It's a sad day when someone comes and tries to tell you how good or bad your character is without actually analyzing or anything. You wouldn't know anything about that now would you @ Ghostbone ? Apparently DK now wins against FOX according to your mighty knowledge. I'm so silly to not have seen it before. I mean his grab is so large that he barely moves his arm in front of himself grins while doing it.......... Yeah I'm sure the grin increases the grab range, A LOT!

@ NachoOfCheese
Yeah, those Ryus are a pain *cough* @Emblem Lord *cough*, but don't be afraid to double jab or hand slap (if for some reason they land close enough for those options). Use DK's pivot grab if they are landing with it so much as DK's pivot grab is disgusting (I mean good for those who may be a little dense/know no slang). Haven't faced any notable Ryu mains outside of Emblem Lord though. All I know is that I put an MU post couple pages back about it. Hopefully you can take it to heart (or find your own method). Best of Luck!

 

[Shaya]

FYI, I will bop people for blatant ignorance. You don't come into this thread knowing nothing and expect a positive reception. You don't only make 1 line posts one after the other asking what 80% of the words people use here mean. I'm sure we could go ad infinitum with the analogies for this. But this thread is not a social (how many times need I say it), if you apparently have interest in competitive play or ideas I'm telling you now it requires your own effort to get there, it's impossible for it to be handed to you plain and simple.

Zero Suit's grab game is a major part to her viability. 16 frame dash grab that's a third or more of a stage, a 16 frame oos option that outranges everything. Oh it's disjointed too.
I'm sure there are many match ups a character would take ZSS' grab in a heart beat. It may be what limits her ability to face roll, but it's also a big part of what makes her incredibly strong in a wide array of match ups beyond what fast light weight characters like Sheik and Fox can achieve.

People were talking about MK earlier against ZSS and the idea of "how wouldn't this be a good match up for MK?" and I think to myself... well.... not a single thing MK can do to ZSS' shield isn't punishable in a harsh and painful way. Not a single thing.
Not a single thing.
Maybe ff nair cross up, but I bet that still gets up tilted out of shield (frame 10 option).
Also guess who's got a 4 frame (invincibility starts 13 though) get me out of jail free card MK does not have the aerial mobility to do anything about? Nor does he have the frame advantage on his strings to actually combo her. Other than perhaps Sonic, no other character is going to take getting dash attacked or down thrown by MK with a wry smile. In Sonic's case with suckage landing options and MK assuredly having enough time to ground himself as a response to reset him, it just isn't as free as ZSS.

And them's the breaks. MK has no real pressure against ZSS. His neutral game is just shield and roll against her.


I find it interesting Japan thinks Sonic beats ZSS. Stage list doesn't sell it to me. Yeah ZSS vs Sonic on smashville may even be in Sonic's favour if he's committed to time out, but battlefield and FD have from all of my personal experience been pretty one-sided (without customs that is). Japan has an abnormally high opinion of Sonic (Apex probably didn't help) compared to us and he's also the most consistently/continually nerfed character in Smash4 because of it. Getting Smashville or FD for Sonic 100% of the time in the Japanese meta is sure to skew how strong people think he is holistically, so I can understand the assumption "bias" that ZSS can't handle that.
Sonic can, like MK, devolve himself into a neutral game of shield and dash attack only to limit how disgustingly hard ZSS destroys him attempting much else, but I don't think that means anything other than it being a near even match up if Sonic is in the lead and it being everything but otherwise.

In terms of Japanese ZSS, they seem to be really behind how powerful flip jump is. Last time I saw choco it was still up-b set up attempts only which Rain would drop out of because Sheik just does that.

tl;dr ZSS can't be forced into shield or be pressured by either Sonic or MK, but her shielding anything of theirs can result in their death. Score.

 

[Ghostbone]

*sigh* It's a sad day when someone comes and tries to tell you how good or bad your character is without actually analyzing or anything. You wouldn't know anything about that now would you @ Ghostbone ? Apparently DK now wins against FOX according to your mighty knowledge. I'm so silly to not have seen it before. I mean his grab is so large that he barely moves his arm in front of himself grins while doing it.......... Yeah I'm sure the grin increases the grab range, A LOT!

lol, I said I wouldn't be surprised if he did, not that he did. I don't claim to be a DK expert but I have been testing out his new cargo throw a bunch.

And his grab range is super large, idk what you're going on about.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

*sigh* It's a sad day when someone comes and tries to tell you how good or bad your character is without actually analyzing or anything. You wouldn't know anything about that now would you @ Ghostbone ? Apparently DK now wins against FOX according to your mighty knowledge. I'm so silly to not have seen it before. I mean his grab is so large that he barely moves his arm in front of himself grins while doing it.......... Yeah I'm sure the grin increases the grab range, A LOT!

@ NachoOfCheese
Yeah, those Ryus are a pain *cough* @Emblem Lord *cough*, but don't be afraid to double jab or hand slap (if for some reason they land close enough for those options). Use DK's pivot grab if they are landing with it so much as DK's pivot grab is disgusting (I mean good for those who may be a little dense/know no slang). Haven't faced any notable Ryu mains outside of Emblem Lord though. All I know is that I put an MU post couple pages back about it. Hopefully you can take it to heart (or find your own method). Best of Luck!

He said he wouldn't be surprised tho, implying that it may not be the case. Its nbd.
But yeah I saw that DK vs Ryu post. It was pretty on point.

 

[Man Li Gi]

lol, I said I wouldn't be surprised if he did, not that he did. I don't claim to be a DK expert but I have been testing out his new cargo throw a bunch.

And his grab range is super large, idk what you're going on about.

Ok, I do have a post here (probably pg. 45/44) talking about the MU explicitly. This was pre patch but the DING DONG brings it closer. How much closer? I can't even say (I mean DK had cargo-throw attack on Fox in Melee and it didn't suddenly swing the MU. Only in Bum's time did it work).

I don't see DK's grab as being large. If his grab was as long as his ftilt.....well that's ridiculous. But it's not, in fact when you compare to his hurtbox, it's just meh.

When people say woah X has low or high range, I always wonder why they are talking about raw range instead of range proportionate to the hurtbox. Most of DK'S moves with his hurtbox are small, but raw range seem pretty big. Oh well, I can't please/troll/get mad at/question/or whatever else I do when they talk about DK, with everyone. Truth, I'm happy that more people are talking about DK outside of me and Nacho. What's even better, people aren't using Kong Cyclone as their main topic of interest in regards to the ape.

Sorry for the perceived hostility, I just was baffled how someone could believe that the buff can swing MUs all crazy.

 

[Yonder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6AQe4ep31c

And the winner for most overrated Smash Bros character of all time is...Luigi. This was pretty bad, no bias. Last time I checked, Sheik is still well and ahead #1. I think some people are overreacted cause Luigi got some buffs along with his nerf last patch. Like someone said, power redistrubution. Fireball end lag in exchange for a stronger up B and...even better fair combo wise.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait who did Omni main before that got nerfed?

 

[Kofu]

It's really upsetting when a top player in ZeRo releases his video about Mewtwo and makes claims that are just completely wrong about Mewtwo's kill throws being weak, not even beating Sonics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quEhrISeCjg

Mewtwos uthrow is overall the strongest kill throw in the game, only beaten by Ness bthrow at the edge, or charizard uthrow on a platform althought to be fair, mewtwo will kill earlier if on a platform himself. In general though Mewtwo will kill earlier than those two and his bthrow at the edge is still very strong.

Sonics bthrow isnt included because its really weak now.

I wish people would do some research before making videos with claims like that, it doesnt take long to test it.

I made my kill percent thread for a reason. Not linking it ATM because I am currently unable to update it for 1.1.0

 

[Ffamran]

Wait who did Omni main before that got nerfed?

Didn't Omni use Yoshi? Pretty sure there's some videos of him on showdowngg.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Wait who did Omni main before that got nerfed?

Last time I saw it was Yoshi I think? Who was buffed though so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Shaya]

Comedic rhetoric has much greater priority to non-fictitious expression. Especially in parodies, my goodness.

 

[Ffamran]

Finally, I finished adding shield stun and on-shield frame advantage... make that disadvantage for Falco. Smash functions differently, so there's nothing special about Falco having -20 frame disadvantages on pretty much everything even with shield drops, a +7 frames to the attacker, taken into account. The only positives Falco has are auto-canceled Uair, Bair, and Dair. Yeah... Once you factor in his run speed, poor grab speed for melee fighter, and the need to be precise with Bair and Dair, it's fun times with the bird... I swear his Bair doesn't do shield push for some godawful reason. Either because you have to be so precise with it to land that frame 4-5 hit or the speed is what's allowing accidental powershields to nullify what should be a decent shield poke. Hey, at least all his Smashes push shields...

Anyway, now I'm curious about Ryu since even though he has high hit lag (from what I heard), he can sort of pressure like in Street Fighter.

 

[Locke 06]

Anyway, now I'm curious about Ryu since even though he has high hit lag (from what I heard), he can sort of pressure like in Street Fighter.

If ryu hits your shield with a special cancelable move, he can go directly into TSRK which has f1 intangibility. That would be good shield pressure. There is absolutely no way I'm going to try and punish cr. Lk/jab1/st. Lp on shield or even roll away. Mega doesn't have the best OoS options (usmash f9?) But Ryu can kill you if he guesses correctly. If Ryu is behind you pressuring your shield with these moves, watch your shield health and wait for shield push to help you get out of TSRK sweetspot range. Sitting in shield with Ryu right there ready to cancel into TSRK is scary.

And then you watch out for the overhead shield break.