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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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**Gilgamesh**

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:4sheik:vs:4diddy:discussion eh o.o since people are saying she goes even with a lot of characters which I disagree slightly on?
55/60 Slight Advantage | 45/40 Slight Disadvantage

Neutral / On-stage game
-Diddy Kong can handle sheik in neutral due to fair and banana
-Sheik is overall more safe then diddy kong with needles.

[55:45] Sheik favor in neutral mainly due to needles.


Disadvantage / Off-stage
- Diddy Kong has no effective off-stage game vs Sheik and thus relies on edge-guarding on ledge.
- Monkey Flip saves Diddy Kong in this state (Really)
- Sheik has a off-stage presence with needles and can go deep against Diddy Kong while she also can edge-guard on ledge
- Diddy Kong can potentially lose a stock due to sheik hitting him out of Monkey Flip and forcing him to use Up-B [It really does happen from time to time]
- Diddy Kong can't really challenge Bouncing Fish | Sheik can challenge Monkey Flip

[60:40] Sheik doesn't have to worry about dieing off-stage but Diddy Kong has to worry about getting gimped.]

Advantage
- Diddy Kong has easier time sealing the stock (reliable kill confirms with banana)
- Sheik transition from neutral - > advantage is more rewarding due to the opponent [Diddy Kong] usually being off-stage
- Diddy Kong is one of the few characters who makes Sheik have to really space her vanish after down-throw for the 50/50 to happen otherwise his Fair hits Sheik on start-up [ZeRo vs Vinnie, MVD vs Mr.R] [Note: Sheik isn't invincible until slightly after the start-up]]

[50:50] While Sheik has a more rewarding advantage due to Diddy Kong having a bad recovery once Monkey Flip has been used; Diddy Kong however in general has a easier time sealing the stock against Sheik due to having better kill confirms (banana)


Verdict:
55:45 :4sheik:'s favor. One of the main reasons why this MU isn't be even is because Sheik contests with everything that :4diddy: does while also having a better disadvantage state on off-stage then his off-stage which lead to stocks... If you take out the "Diddy Kong has the potential to die (remember sheik is one of the best edge-guarders) off-stage". This MU is practically even :D.

BTW the only character I believe go even with Sheik is :4zss: because looking at the tools and matches without doing a quick write-up about the MU, ZSS and Sheik disadvantage pretty much nullifies with an occasional edge-guard on each other. Sheik beats ZSS in neutral solidly (60:40) but ZSS has the better advantage (60:40) then Sheik's due to uair->uair->up-b and flip kick. In short, disadvantage state cancels out, Sheik beats ZSS neutral game, ZSS has higher reward in Advantage.
50:50. Sheik does have very close MU's though like a decent amount of top tiers go 45:55 against her :4diddy::4pikachu::4ryu::4metaknight::4mario: (this is liable to change or stay the same)
 
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meleebrawler

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So what are Mewtwo's notable matchups?
Of the perceived top/high tiers, he has a palatable one with Rosalina, and goes even with Ness and Villager off the top of my head.

Though it should be noted that most of Mewtwo's top tier matchups, though they might ultimately be disadvantaged, are quite winnable, both due to Mewtwo's competent neutral and comeback factor.
 

Djent

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In Brawl, very few characters had the luxury of decent matchups versus both MK and ICs, whereas in Smash 4 there are a decent number of characters who can handle both Sheik and ZSS about as well as Diddy (ie. Ryu, Fox, Pikachu, maybe Mario, Sonic, and MK).
I'm not so sure about this. IMO:

-Pika/Mario/MK might still lose to Sheik even now
-Fox noticeably struggles w/ Sheik, though ZSS is possibly even
-Sonic goes even w/ Sheik but I do think he loses slightly to ZSS (it's just not horrible like people originally thought)
-Ryu I agree with (which is one of many reasons I think he is a shoe-in for top 5)

But I can definitely understand why you or others would disagree with these estimates (and I'm not super confident about any of them anyway).
 

Apeirohaon

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Verdict:
55:45 :4sheik:'s favor. One of the main reasons why this MU isn't be even is because Sheik contests with everything that :4diddy: does while also having a better disadvantage state on off-stage then his off-stage which lead to stocks... If you take out the "Diddy Kong has the potential to die (remember sheik is one of the best edge-guarders) off-stage". This MU is practically even :D.

BTW the only character I believe go even with Sheik is :4zss: because looking at the tools and matches without doing a quick write-up about the MU, ZSS and Sheik disadvantage pretty much nullifies with an occasional edge-guard on each other. Sheik beats ZSS in neutral solidly (60:40) but ZSS has the better advantage (60:40) then Sheik's due to uair->uair->up-b and flip kick. In short, disadvantage state cancels out, Sheik beats ZSS neutral game, ZSS has higher reward in Advantage.
50:50. Sheik does have very close MU's though like a decent amount of top tiers go 45:55 against her :4diddy::4pikachu::4ryu::4metaknight::4mario: (this is liable to change or stay the same)
didn't we just agree that we aren't going to use 55:45s?
 

ARGHETH

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didn't we just agree that we aren't going to use 55:45s?
I thought a couple people said that using them didn't make sense, others ignored the conversation, and a few think the whole thing's arbitrary anyways.
 
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Ffamran

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I definitely appreciate Ffamran's input on the Falco matchup but I'd like to just add that, from the current games that have been played that I have seen, Ryu has beaten the Falco even though the Falco is 100% the better player. An example is DMG_Hooded vs. LoF_Keitaro found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdR9oWQ7rt0

Now, the Ryu was not in a massive advantage throughout and did get combo'd fairly well by Keitaro, the threat of TSRK was too real and multiple times DMG_Hooded U-Tilt locked him for big damage. I want to continue to make it clear that I think Ryu has the advantage but it is not to the point where Falco ALWAYS loses. Falco obviously has traits which hurt Ryu's gameplay (multi-hit moves and combo game) but I still continue to think it's Ryu's advantage.
Times like this make me wished more prolific players discussed here. Outside of Keitaro, I can't think of anyone, but maybe Larry as capable of saying much about the Falco and Ryu MU from Falco's point of view while outside of Emblem Lord - you have fought Keitaro's Falco multiple times, right? -, I don't know anyone else who can discuss from the Ryu point of view.

I never said Falco doesn't win or go even against Ryu, but he doesn't get demolished that hard against Ryu in my opinion. The main issue is that Falco is not a good character when you factor in he can't play at range at all. In a meaningful way, Falco's long-range and mid-range game is bad when he's limited to basic things everyone can do at those range: move. For someone like Captain Falcon, that's move at high speed, a meaningful ranged game by breaking it or someone like Link who controls range. Falco has nothing and against Ryu who does everything Falco can do and even better e.g. Falco's Blaster is *** for stage control versus Ryu's Hadouken, there is absolutely no threat when Falco's at range compared to Ryu and even Fox who does no knockback, but has high speed to break zones. Then there's some shenanigans Falco has to deal with. In particular, a jab that anyone with a frame 5 below move - theoretically, he's at a -8 frame disadvantage on Mario, so... - can punish him. In Ryu's case, that's a free hard punish and a free stock when Falco's at ~50% to ~75% if Falco hesitates or goes for a jab mixup. Ryu's not the only one: Luigi can hard punish him with a Nair kill, Jigglypuff can even Rest during his rapid jab, and if Roy's on the ground, he can armor through with Blazer.

At the same time, having a good close-range game and being able to keep up and hit fast enough against Ryu and other close-range fighters is a boon. The issue is how he gets in; Ryu can probably zone Falco out, most characters never have to approach even without projectiles or high mobility, and if they can't or aren't fast enough, they can tank his pitiful lasers like Ganondorf or Triple D while Falco has to deal with an extreme amount of recovery.

The other issue with Falco is like Emblem Lord said: if Falco makes a mistake, he suffers even harder than other poor disadvantage characters like Captain Falcon or Fox because of his light weight, lack of combo breakers, and not really much of an escape option other than Falco Phantasm which has half a hitbox to Fox Illusion and his low mobility making it difficult to just run. It wasn't rare to see Falco take upwards to 40% from Luigi pre-1.1.0 within seconds just like Fox, except Fox can at least run away if that happens and try to reset to neutral and it's not common for him to have really one-sided matches if everything goes wrong. It won't be uncommon for Ryu to take Falco's stocks within seconds of the set while it takes minutes for Falco to take Ryu's. At the same time, it's not uncommon for Falco to rebound because of his high damage output and strong edgeguard game. This is one reason why I felt that while Sheik does win against Falco by say, 70:30 at a minimum, a Sheik who doesn't know what they're doing or has trouble securing kills can make it 40:60 since Falco's difficulty with killing is just landing hits and not having few kill options which pretty much his entire kit does. This is one key thing Falco excels over Fox: high damage through minimum amounts of moves and an unpredictable level of danger - he can be the easiest character to kill or the hardest to avoid getting killed by. That's the volatile nature of Falco vs. Ryu: if Falco makes a mistake, he's going to die almost instantly, but if he doesn't, he can take stocks normally.

Short answer: at this point in the game, without knowing what Falco can really do and without knowing Ryu enough - we know he's a threat, but how much do we know about him is still kind of muddy when he's not as common as Fox, Mario, Luigi, Captain Falcon, and Sheik - I'd say Falco is a +1 to +2 for Ryu and a ? like with many other characters. Now, a discussion with Fox vs. Ryu would be more meaningful as Fox is much more common. It's negative, but who really cares if Ryu beats Falco, a random character in the lower ranks of Smash 4? Even if a Ryu had to encounter a flock of Falco players in a major, would it really matter? Falco's similar attributes to light weight fastfallers can let Ryu do the same thing he does to Fox, Sheik, ZSS, and more. It's also kind of pointless since Falco's ranged game is bad enough where he's not going to do well in any important MU. Sure, he could go toe to toe with Diddy or Captain Falcon up close, but once you figure out he can't do anything at range... Time to play smart; don't play his game, make him approach, and watch him crumble. It's kind of karmic that Falco's being forced to play everyone's game when in past games, he controlled everyone's game.

Your term of broken is, I can't call it wrong, but it's not right. You are saying anything good is broken. Broken means unbeatable, way above the rest, wins 99% of the time. Fox is not this. Fox isn't even a tier above Falco and Marth so he can't be way above. Falco and Marth both have even MUs with him, even beat him on stages. His shine is really good but far from broken, by this aspect you're calling Falco's d-air broken because it has better gimping (but more startup). If Meta Knight is called Broken, yet Fox in Melee is also called broken (who isn't even a tier above other top tiers) vs Meta Knight who is 2 tiers (1 above ICs) above the rest of the top tiers, that is a HUGE GAP and it makes your point simply unreliable.
Broken doesn't have to mean "unbeatable"... that's what unbeatable means. Broken means when something is not working properly. On the side of broken in way too good ways, you have moves that are working beyond what they should be. Melee Fox's Uair should be a rewarding move when you land it, but it shouldn't be that strong while being able to combo letting Fox rack up damage fast and hard, how Peach's Down Smash can do 70% for no real reason if all hits connect, but if not, still 12%, or D-throws seemingly are supposed to have low knockback to setup things, but because of the developers not assuming people would abuse it to grab again, chain-grabs are broken in Brawl and even in Melee where some chain-grabs exist. On the flipside, you have bad broken where characters are under-performing really badly. That's anywhere from a character being really under-tuned, the game just not playing well with them like Zelda in every game, or issues like poor hitboxes like Roy in Melee. Wolf for instance, was broken in Brawl; unlike everyone else, he had to deal with a frame 60 meteor cancel while everyone had an average of 25. Or perhaps Meta Knight in Smash 4's launch when his hitboxes just did not work properly.

Melee Fox doesn't need to be a tier above Falco and Marth. The top tiers in Melee are broken when their options are way too good. There's a difference between being good like Iori was in KoF where he was basically a jack of all trades with really good options versus being way too good like Melee Fox who's supposed to be a glass cannon, but ends up fulfilling every other role and escaping weaknesses by very strong options through raw speed, a move that not only is beyond reaction time, does almost everything Fox needs to win, and very over-tuned options like his Uair. Take Melee Ganondorf who's strong and while he can make use of the engine as well, doesn't have as much extreme options Fox, Falco, Marth, or Sheik have. Even in Brawl, you have characters like Meta Knight, Falco, Snake, the Ice Climbers, and Triple D who either have way too good moves like Meta Knight, a blatantly broken option limiter like Falco, or exploit the game so much that characters can end up being invalidated like the Ice Climbers or Triple D. Take Captain Falcon who while being handicapped by the game mechanics, was actually a good character without any shenanigans like Meta Knight's sheer speed, range for a shorty, and ability to control the pace of the game for all characters.
 

Apeirohaon

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I thought a couple people said that using them didn't make sense, others ignored the conversation, and a few think the whole thing's arbitrary anyways.
idk, those couple people got like 15+ likes so i thought it was mostly agreed upon
 

meleebrawler

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I thought a couple people said that using them didn't make sense, others ignored the conversation, and a few think the whole thing's arbitrary anyways.
If the guy presents a complete, thorough analysis of a matchup, who cares if you think his 55-45 should be a 60-40. Just keep that to yourself until it's time to make a list that EVERYONE will have to agree on. Until then, focus on the analysis and ignore those who don't present them or press them for one.
 

bc1910

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Mewtwo's good MUs?

I don't think he outright beats any high or top tiers... he gets bodied by most of the rushdowns, Fox is particularly awful.

Some of the other high/tops are okay though. From what I know, he goes even with Villager and has a doable MU with Ness and Rosalina. In my experience he's even with Greninja.

I can see ZSS being winnable for Mewtwo because she doesn't pressure him up close as well as her top tier rushdown brethren, but he might just straight up die too early to have a decent MU with her.
 
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Nobie

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It should be noted that Kurogane Hammer made a mistake originally in listing air speed for Mewtwo. He had Mewtwo as Mario/Sonic tier in terms of max air speed, but Mewtwo is actually 3RD FASTEST in the game. That's below Yoshi and Jigglypuff and HIGHER than Roy.

Of the perceived top/high tiers, he has a palatable one with Rosalina, and goes even with Ness and Villager off the top of my head.

Though it should be noted that most of Mewtwo's top tier matchups, though they might ultimately be disadvantaged, are quite winnable, both due to Mewtwo's competent neutral and comeback factor.
I think that last point is very important. Mewtwo is, by design, never entirely out of the game, and doesn't have to rely on any hail marys to accomplish this. While characters like Fox, Falcon, and Sheik have the edge and can easily rack up damage/finish Mewtwo, all it takes to start tilting the scales towards Mewtwo's direction is a good d-tilt, grab, or jab, none of which are super difficult to land or out of the question. Fox is a light fast faller and so relatively easy to combo and finish with an up throw. Falcon is a super pain in the butt but can get juggled + edgeguarded without too much trouble, and Sheik's lack of killing power, while not quite so much of of an issue for her when fighting the super light Mewtwo, becomes a concern when Mewtwo has reliable killing moves. There's also the matter of bouncing fish vs. the best air dodge in the game.

As for other matchups, Mewtwo won't win these but he can at least put up a good fight in them.

@Emblem Lord has mentioned that he believes Mewtwo is 4:6 vs. Ryu because he can go toe to toe with Ryu's neutral game, and foils hadouken as a poking tool.

Komorikiri put Mewtwo vs. Sonic as worse than 5:5 but better than 4.5:5.5 (don't kill me, I'm just the messenger). In that area, having an effective and strong projectile, command grab, and transcendent smash attack can put a damper in Sonic's day.

I personally think Mewtwo goes even with Yoshi, because having long disjoints, comparable air speed, and reliable killing tools allows Mewtwo to space Yoshi out and finish stocks.
 

meleebrawler

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Mewtwo's good MUs?

I don't think he outright beats any high or top tiers... he gets bodied by most of the rushdowns, Fox is particularly awful.

Some of the other high/tops are okay though. From what I know, he goes even with Villager and has a doable MU with Ness and Rosalina. In my experience he's even with Greninja.

I can see ZSS being winnable for Mewtwo because she doesn't pressure him up close as well as her top tier rushdown brethren, but he might just straight up die too early to have a decent MU with her.
At the same time, though, said top tiers can be bodied back, especially Falcon. The main reason Fox is tougher than most is due to his reflector.

Nobie Nobie did a good job of covering these but I'll also that Sheik's issues also extend to Diddy Kong; he's gonna have some trouble finishing Mewtwo quickly unless he can get a banana -> smash combo.

Oh, and Luigi is probably in Mewtwo's favour after his nerf. Peach is likely even as well.
 
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Ffamran

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It should be noted that Kurogane Hammer made a mistake originally in listing air speed for Mewtwo. He had Mewtwo as Mario/Sonic tier in terms of max air speed, but Mewtwo is actually 3RD FASTEST in the game. That's below Yoshi and Jigglypuff and HIGHER than Roy.
I'm going to assume Mewtwo's air acceleration is the reason why he thought it was much lower. You checked, so you should know; Mewtwo's air acceleration is slower than Ike's 0.04 at 0.03. That's the same air acceleration as Mr. Game & Watch and Ganondorf's, 0.002 faster than Little Mac's, and 0.005 faster than Ryu who apparently has the slowest air acceleration.
 

Nobie

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I'm going to assume Mewtwo's air acceleration is the reason why he thought it was much lower. You checked, so you should know; Mewtwo's air acceleration is slower than Ike's 0.04 at 0.03. That's the same air acceleration as Mr. Game & Watch and Ganondorf's, 0.002 faster than Little Mac's, and 0.005 faster than Ryu who apparently has the slowest air acceleration.
If Mewtwo had decent air acceleration it would completely transform his character. Of course, the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim.
 

Vipermoon

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Of course, the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim.
You say this as if it's something M2 needs. If he had aerial acceleration he'd spend a lot more time in the air and he simply wouldn't be M2 anymore.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Because he also had a cast-wise kill confirm from a grab (which could be confirmed into with fireball) with no way to escape unless the Luigi messes up.
Let's look at two other characters who heavily rely on grabs.
ZSS has grab kill confirms also but there are percents where they do not work and ZSS has a very slow and laggy grab to compensate for its strength.
Mario has a lot of throw combos, but he can't really kill directly off of a grab unless it's with a b-throw near the ledge or the odd d-throw > fair.

Luigi had combos stronger than Mario's and a kill confirm that, in the context of his toolkit, was even more ridiculous that ZSS'.
I'm pretty sure with the 3 frame nerf on Fireballs, he couldn't confirm Fireballs into grabs anymore.

If you are not willing to see how that absurdly low endlag that move is as "even a little safe" then IDK what you define safe as


I can't name 10 characters who are definitely more viable than Fox and here you are saying that he's not competitive AND he needs to get buffed?
Melee Fox is an ungodly broken monstrosity that is only held back because he is being controlled by a human so of course Smash 4 Fox can't do much compared to Melee Fox asking him to do so would be throwing the careful balance of Smash 4 out the window
What exactly is broken about Melee Fox?

If anything, the absurd amount of skill it takes to play him (in fact, I would say nobody has even mastered him to this day) is what keeps him from being OP. If he was just a character with a decent technical and skill barrier and low learning curve, he would probably lose most of his charm. Part of what makes Melee enticing to many viewers is the complexity of its S tier, and if Fox was stripped of anything, people would complain.
 
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Ffamran

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If Mewtwo had decent air acceleration it would completely transform his character. Of course, the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim.
He'd essentially be like a male Rosalina; all floaty and glide-y-like, but with Luma... yeah, without Luma. That got me thinking... Roy's air acceleration hasn't been listed yet, but I don't think he has high air acceleration since if he did, it would have been really noticeable. We have 3 fast fallers with high air acceleration, Mega Man (0.1), ZSS (0.085), and Wario and Sheik (0.08). A note: Mega Man's the only one with 0.1 air acceleration and all 4 have good air speed. For floaties, Peach, Rosalina and Palutena all have 0.1 air acceleration, but noticeably, only Rosalina has average air speed. If you add in other floaties, Ness (0.09), Lucas (0.085), and Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Pikachu, and Wii Fit Trainer (0.08). All of them also have below-average to low air speed.

There seems to be a group of low fall speed, low air speed, and high air acceleration characters. Makes sense since they need to be able to move somewhere. Similarly, there's a group of high fall speed, high air speed, and high air acceleration characters, a group of high fall speed, high air speed, and low air acceleration like on Ryu (0.025), Little Mac (0.028), Ike and Shulk (0.04), ROB (0.045), DK (0.05), Mii Brawler (0.058), and even Captain Falcon (0.065), a trio of high fall speed, low air speed, and low air acceleration like Ganondorf, Link, and Mii Swordfighter (0.04), a group of low fall speed, low air speed, and low air acceleration like Zelda (0.055), Samus, Charizard, and Villager (0.05), and Bowser (0.04). Everyone else is kind of in between with some outliers like Triple D and Diddy having high fall speed, low air speed, and air acceleration, 0.04 for Triple D and 0.05 for Single D; Mr. Game & Watch having low fall speed, high air speed, and low air acceleration, 0.03, and Mewtwo and Sonic having average fall speed, high air speed, and low air acceleration, 0.03 for Mewtwo and 0.04 for Sonic. Oh, and there's Dr. Mario who has average fall speed, low air speed, and low air acceleration - money's on the weird multiplier applied to him using Mario's frame data since his air acceleration is the weirdest number: 0.0574 with the next "weirdest" being Yoshi's 0.068 which isn't that weird compared to the Doc's.

These little nuances all add up and they're pretty interesting. Also, an excuse for a high fall speed, low air speed, and high acceleration character... *cough*Falco*cough* *cough*pheasants accelerate to high air speeds quickly*cough* :p
 

Antonykun

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What exactly is broken about Melee Fox?
Frame one jump cancelable multi purpose shine of win buttons on top of the best overall mobility in the game is litterally the tip of the iceberg with this one
I was going to talk about the other part but then i remembered that i shouldn't be starting slap fights over other smash games
 

Browny

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Allow me to be perfectly clear: Mewtwo is a bad character.
He's just more complete a character than most of the other low tiers, held back by a really crippling flaw (which is especially detrimental in this game's meta).
Which is...?

Dont say weight because then you'll have to be banned forever, sheik/fox/zss/rosalina all die like, 4% later than mewtwo does to most KO moves.
 

NachoOfCheese

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Which is...?

Dont say weight because then you'll have to be banned forever, sheik/fox/zss/rosalina all die like, 4% later than mewtwo does to most KO moves.
Nah man it's the fact that he's super light, huge, and doesn't have a Luma or death combos that kill you before you can say "oops"to make up for it.
At least he has one of the best projectiles in the game
 

Ffamran

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Which is...?

Dont say weight because then you'll have to be banned forever, sheik/fox/zss/rosalina all die like, 4% later than mewtwo does to most KO moves.
I can only think of 2 issues and they're common "Mewtwo problems": weight as you said and his big ol' rabbity and catty hurtbox. Mewtwo's a cat-rabbit fetus thing, right? Anyway, those problems are also common problems for other characters too... Some people complain about them, but others don't. Anything else, like maybe like of reliable kills or whatever... I've no idea.
 
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Nobie

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You say this as if it's something M2 needs. If he had aerial acceleration he'd spend a lot more time in the air and he simply wouldn't be M2 anymore.
The main reason I said that is because it would 1) help him escape juggles, which are his biggest weakness 2) let him follow up on juggles a bit better. Both would lean Mewtwo into a frightening place.
 

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I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them ;)

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.
 

Dre89

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Could someone explain why M2 is considered to have a decent Rosa MU. I thought he'd struggle in MUs where he has to approach.
 

Nobie

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Could someone explain why M2 is considered to have a decent Rosa MU. I thought he'd struggle in MUs where he has to approach.
1) Mewtwo doesn't struggle approaching, he struggles against rushdown characters approaching HIM
2) Mewtwo has a ton of moves that cause Luma to tumble, including Dash Attack and Fair. It is seriously unbelievably easy to kill Luma as Mewtwo, and without Luma, Mewtwo kills Rosalina faster than the other way around
3) Gravitational Pull is somewhat pointless because Mewtwo Shadow Ball has such little recovery that you can immediately follow and punish
 

Trunks159

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There aren't too many people who think that tbh, but I suppose the people who do listen only to results and Ryu isn't exactly crushing the Smash scene right now.
 
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Blobface

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Ryu gets near Ganon-level reward (consistently!) and actually has safe pokes to get that reward, not to mention having a good neutral and CQC. He's definitely top tier.

...

I'm-I'm not salty. N-not at all.
 
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Ghostbone

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Which is...?

Dont say weight because then you'll have to be banned forever, sheik/fox/zss/rosalina all die like, 4% later than mewtwo does to most KO moves.
Mewtwo dies to 50% Diddy d-tilt > u-smash at 98%.
Sheik dies to the same setup at 110%, Fox dies at 108%

Mewtwo dies 12% earlier, his weight really is a lot less.
(and this is just off the ground kill moves, the effect is exacerbated when you get stuff like Sheik d-throw > uair where Mewtwo is sent higher from d-throw so he dies even earlier than if you just compared Sheik's uair from the ground)
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Nah man it's the fact that he's super light, huge, and doesn't have a Luma or death combos that kill you before you can say "oops"to make up for it.
At least he has one of the best projectiles in the game
Shadowball isn't one of the best, but its certainly good.
 

meleebrawler

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Mewtwo dies to 50% Diddy d-tilt > u-smash at 98%.
Sheik dies to the same setup at 110%, Fox dies at 108%

Mewtwo dies 12% earlier, his weight really is a lot less.
(and this is just off the ground kill moves, the effect is exacerbated when you get stuff like Sheik d-throw > uair where Mewtwo is sent higher from d-throw so he dies even earlier than if you just compared Sheik's uair from the ground)
Sheik's a fastfaller, that also affects how early she dies off the top.
 

Kaladin

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I've been observing this thread for a long time now and have yet to say a word in here, but I just have to know why most of y'all do not agree that Ryu is top tier, let alone even in the top 10???????

What don't you see? What don't you get? Why don't you understand?

Ever since the start, I have played a wide range of characters, from Robin to Shulk to Charizard to Mewtwo to Mii Swordfighter, but none of them come close to what I have found in Ryu. This character was CREATED for competitive play. There is no reason someone like myself, a COMPETITIVE player, should ever have to switch to another character again for tournament play. He has all the makings of greatness, yet so very few even use him.

I am not the greatest player myself, and my results show it. There's so much left to work on. But why am I one of, if not, the ONLY Ryu mains with any kind of results whatsoever? Why do my results have to hold so much weight with this character? There are SO many better players out there who can be doing what I'm doing with Ryu, but other than 9B.......where are they?

I believe that I am on the verge of the greatest discovery in Smash 4. I may very well be playing the best character in the game.

When I spotdodge a GRAB (literally the entirety of the metagame) and have enough frames to DTILT AND SHORYUKEN YOU AND KILL YOU AT 60% BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN PUT UP YOUR SHIELD.......who else has this?

When I punish a move with FRAME 1 SUPER ARMOR FOCUS ATTACK DASH CANCEL DAIR TO SHORYUKEN AND KILL YOU STARTING AT 40%.......hello? Yes this is Trela, can I help you?

When I confirm off of a Nair or Fair or Dtilt or Utilt in neutral for GUARANTEED 20%-40% THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH BY A DAIR OR SHORYUKEN AS EARLY AS 60%.......I'm sorry, who the f**k are you again?

Hell, when I FRAME 1 INVINCIBILITY SHORYUKEN YOU THROUGH JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE ATTACK IN THE GAME AND KILL YOU AT, YOU GUESS IT, 60%.......what are you gonna do about it?

Other than my opponent literally being a better player than me.......what am I supposed to be afraid of?

"W-well you see Megaman can-"

LMAO WHO!?!?!?

"Pikachu can combo you with multi-hits and gimp you with relative ease!"

Pikachu can also die to Shoryuken as early as 50% with relative ease, but please, keep going.

"Olimar just keeps him out so well, like what can Ryu even do?"

>Hits a Pikmin with any move Ryu has
>hitlag keeps the move out for the rest of Smash 4's lifespan

Yes, please keep throwing Pikmin at me, I would like to have a word with them ;)

I can keep going, and I will. 20SF will become a reality when I'm through with Ryu.

So go ahead; continue to believe Ryu doesn't have what it takes to truly win with consistency at the top level of play, because if I can't do it, someone else like 9B will. Don't sleep on the man.
I see Ryu as top 5. That said, in response to the bulk of your post, so what? Ryu is the best punisher in the game, moreso than ZSS. He also has an amazing clutch factor like Lucario.

But

How does he deal with matchups in which he does not win neutral at the highest level?
 

Dre89

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1) Mewtwo doesn't struggle approaching, he struggles against rushdown characters approaching HIM
2) Mewtwo has a ton of moves that cause Luma to tumble, including Dash Attack and Fair. It is seriously unbelievably easy to kill Luma as Mewtwo, and without Luma, Mewtwo kills Rosalina faster than the other way around
3) Gravitational Pull is somewhat pointless because Mewtwo Shadow Ball has such little recovery that you can immediately follow and punish
I admit I don't know M2 too well, but I would've thought that his good boxing game but low grab range would've made him better at dealing with approaches rather than doing it himself. What are his viable approach options?

Ryu gets near Ganon-level reward (consistently!) and actually has safe pokes to get that reward, not to mention having a good neutral and CQC. He's definitely top tier.

...

I'm-I'm not salty. N-not at all.
Then you have ZSS, who can kill you earlier than Ganon fsmash. This on top of of being one of the most mobile characters in the game, as well as having an unpunishable disadvantage and having frame advantage on shields.

None of this is justified by having a punishable grab. Her grab reward is insane and landing grabs is not hard at all. It has enormous range and eats rolls and spotdodges that aren't frame perfect. It's also unpunishable by a lot of characters if she whiffs it I front of them.
 

Ghostbone

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Sheik's a fastfaller, that also affects how early she dies off the top.
....Exactly?
The metagame is dominated by vertical kill moves, Mewtwo dies a lot earlier to vertical kill moves/vertical KO strings.
Ergo, his weight is a serious problem, much more so than the likes of Sheik, Fox or ZSS
 

meleebrawler

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1) Mewtwo doesn't struggle approaching, he struggles against rushdown characters approaching HIM
2) Mewtwo has a ton of moves that cause Luma to tumble, including Dash Attack and Fair. It is seriously unbelievably easy to kill Luma as Mewtwo, and without Luma, Mewtwo kills Rosalina faster than the other way around
3) Gravitational Pull is somewhat pointless because Mewtwo Shadow Ball has such little recovery that you can immediately follow and punish
He's also got two anti-luma throws, and with Rosalina being a floaty she'll die even earlier to Mewtwo's best kill moves than most.

Ghostbone Ghostbone I'm just sayin', if you want to prove Mewtwo is THAT much lighter than those right behind him perhaps a lateral kill move would be more accurate.
 
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TurboLink

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Ryu gets near Ganon-level reward (consistently!) and actually has safe pokes to get that reward, not to mention having a good neutral and CQC. He's definitely top tier.

...

I'm-I'm not salty. N-not at all.
What's a poke?
 
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