Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

If you want to have a productive "tier list of BAirs," you might want to classify them. Discussing why Mega Man's BAir is better than Fox's BAir is comparing apples to oranges in their purpose.

For example: Air-Ground Landing vs Air-Ground SH, Air-Air on stage vs Air-Air off stage, Combo tool vs Combo Finisher vs Kill move, Zoning BAir vs approaching BAir, etc.

Nobody's going to argue with you that Fox's BAir is bad off stage. Thing is, if you've ever watched Fox, he doesn't use it off stage. BAir is a natural trap in that if you airdodge it at SH height, you'll eat an up smash. The launch angle is dastardly horizontal.

Mega Man wishes he had Fox's autocancel window, but his has disgusting range and disjoint along with being a multi-hit. It's one of the premier air-air tools in the game and edge guarding tools. However, it has 19(?) frames of landing lag and the IASA frame is two frames too late to throw out an up air out of a rising FH BAir. Did I mention it doesn't AC out of a FHFF without waiting a few frames?

RE DAir: Disjointed projectile DAir spike ftw. Although it could seriously use a damage buff to stop it from getting out prioritized by things like firefox.

but this discussion is just a "feed me information because I don't know anything about other characters' moves."

 

[Vipermoon]

my apologize for reading that wrong then.

however just because the move is not good off stage doesn't automatically mean it's under average. bair's have more uses then being able to kill early offstage.

I never said that nor did I imply it. I know all about Fox's Bair and how he uses it. It's uses are nothing special. It is underaverage because the combination of damage, end lag, landing lag, autocancel, knockback, range, area coverage, and character mobility specs makes it under average.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fox's bair maybe weak and has a slow start up but the move has a crazy auto cancel window. hell you can even auto cancel it if you shff'd it. fox's bair is also great for setting up frame traps if spaced as you can hit the opponent with an up tilt if they attempt to punish you off of shield. also high on end lag? fox's bair only has 15 frames of ending lag when landed which isn't that bad.

Where are you people getting the idea that Fox's Bair is weak? It does 13 damage and kills. Am I missing something?

 

[Ikes]

It's impossible to find a perfectly average Bair in a list of 50+ characters.

Kirby's seems like a perfect average, like a slightly quicker, toned down mario bair.

 

[Nu~]

On the topic of Dairs...
Pac-Man's automatically sends Luma into tumble and can steal jumps/gimp with its weak beginning hits. Making people fall into red trampolines with it is fun. It has some nice specs too; comes out on frame 6 and deals good vertical knock back.

It also makes Pac-Man fall extremely fast in a tech we like to call the foot dive: http://smashboards.com/threads/pacman-tech-in-depth-how-to-footdive-discuss-uses-below.403287/

Yay for more ways to escape disadvantage! Yay for more ways to deny characters access to the ledge!

The biggest things holding it back are its 20 frames of landing lag and an autocancel window of 56. Gross.

 

[Browny]

Hmmmm. Let's see, of the 20 characters' dairs listed on page one:

are bad.

This is why I refuse to use Lucario anymore despite maining him in brawl. I dont care what anyone says about Aura being buffed, his dair was god tier in brawl and now its a joke compared to its old self and is such a nerf I feel like having his old dair back would make him an easy high tier.

The ability to dair on someones shield, DJ then instant dair again to shield poke was so fun. The rage it induced on the opponents made me smile. "OMG I SHIELDED THAT, THATS SO BROKEN AURA IS CHEAP WAHHHHH".

And before anyone tries to correct me, at high % the shieldstun on dair was so high that no, you coulnt punish that oos unless you were marth or MK, even bowser struggled to when his upb didnt hit above him.

 

[Vipermoon]

Kirby's Bair is pretty good.

Thinkaman source (KO percent is 3DS blastzones, it kills earlier than that):

Bair
Frame 6- 7: 13% 20b/102g (KO@ 135%) 361°
Frame 8-14: 8% 0b/110g (KO@ 223%) 361°
Max Damage: 13%
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 32

Frame 6 start-up (really important), really good knockback to go with the damage, and range isn't as bad as you think. It does have 17 frames of landing lag but 13% shield pushback keeps it safe. I can't find total frames at the moment but I believe it ends reasonable fast.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Well Sonic

Fastest run speed, good air speed, spin dash speed, vertical acceleration with up-b, can get back to the ground with auto-cancelled dair.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Actually they were right about Fox getting combo'd. Cargo up toss-> up air works on him longer than anyone, as well as Bair -> Bair -> Bair.
But what really destroys DK in this matchup is the double jab combo. I really don't know why this isn't brought up more, because it swings the matchup from like 55:45 Fox to like 65:35 Fox. It works on DK forever and it's frame 2. Jab 2-> Up or Down smash works at death percents. Nair-> Usmash and Dair-> Usmash also work on DK really well. DK's disadvantage state is booty and Fox's advantage is one of the best in the game. Combined with DK's poor neutral and Fox's reliable approach options... it ain't good for DK. The only thing he has on Fox is offstage edgeguarding and some combos if DK ever SOMEHOW manages to land the grab / first hit.

Little Mac.

While the jab combo isn't the end all be all factor that hurts DK, Fox still bodies DK in footsies. DK'S negative state starts in 3 areas: approaching, landing, and then overall throwing out hitboxes.

How does one force DK into anyone of these situations? To force approaching, all you have to do is passively rack damage (Oli does this well too) on DK as most DKs know that he isn't as durable as his Brawl incarnation. In conjuction, the shield damage and power in his moves are also worse, so when having to approach, know that it's a nightmare.

Landing has always been a sore thumb in DK's gameplay. He has no hitboxes that cover his body that doesn't have stupid small hitboxes. Seriously, a lot of DK'S moves have small hitboxes in comparison to his hurtbox.

When you're forced to throw out moves (because your opponent doesn't want to respect your space), this is the worst. Why? DK overall has slow moves that don't have as much power/damage as expected or just have end lag to nullify the quick start up of some of his attacks. His quickest attack is a frame 5 (not the worst) jab/front side utilt. The problem is, all the attacks that hit in front of him are......lackluster. so if someone is in front of you, well tough luck. All his forward hitboxes on the ground have gaps in them. Also, did I mention how little shields stun and shield damage his attacks do (especially the non sweetspot......he should only have sweetspot.......like for real, sours lot Giant punch never kills)?

Since Fox can force all three negative states in a singular and easy motion (laser for approaching, u tilts and Dair to force landing, and Fox's playstyle just forces DK'S to feel pressed to put out hitboxes).

Honestly, I say Fox is DK's worst MU since he can take advantage and put DK in all 3 negative states easily. Other characters can put you in all 3, but it takes time or too much commitment. What made this bearable in Brawl was the sheer power and durability. Smash 4 stripped many characters of admittedly generous hitboxes, the durability, and power of certain characters.

Fox will always be a bane to DK's side (in every game) until a completely absurd amount of changes to DK or Fox take place.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I never said that nor did I imply it. I know all about Fox's Bair and how he uses it. It's uses are nothing special. It is underaverage because the combination of damage, end lag, landing lag, autocancel, knockback, and character mobility specs makes it under average.

So you say that fox's bair is under average despite knowing it's use's?

I think @ Locke 06 said it be best when he said that you should classify bairs in separate catergories rather then simply putting in a combination of damage, end lag, landing lag, autocancel, knockback, and character mobility specs.

Where are you people getting the idea that Fox's Bair is weak? It does 13 damage and kills. Am I missing something?

when i said fox's bair is weak. I meant it was weak on the center onstage not offstage/near the ledge.

I should've rephrased that really.

 

[FullMoon]

In a vacuum Rosalina (+Luma) has many of the most oppressive attacks in the game. Upair, dair, jab, up smash are all top notch. I can't think of many characters who wouldn't trade their attacks for these ones. Her character physics (besides her godly fox trot) are overall rather undesirable though.

---------

I'm interested in a discussion of which character's physics are the best. Who has the best combination of run, walk, aerial, and other physics?

Mega man has amazing aerial manuveurability + air speed stats. Imagine that with more safe aerial landing options on block. Imagine that on Falcon. !!

The differential between link's fall and fast fall speeds would make for some interesting gameplay if he had a more aggressive kit. Imagine Fox's vertical pressure game with that. !!

More static fall speed differentials (like Ryu's) and low aerial manuveurability (I think squirtle's was really poor) makes character movement more telegraphed than usual. I think it's an under-appreciated facet of character design.

Sonic, Greninja and ZSS are probably the three big ones. All three have some unique way of movement (Spring, Hydro Pump, Flip Jump) and their mobility specs even each other out more or less. Between the three Sonic has the best run speed, Greninja has the fastest walk and fall speed while also having the highest jump and ZSS has the best air speed. A possible 4th candidate would be Fox though his air speed is pretty mediocre. He does beat Greninja in walk and fall speed though.

 

[Ikes]

Sonic, Greninja and ZSS are probably the three big ones. All three have some unique way of movement (Spring, Hydro Pump, Flip Jump) and their mobility specs even each other out more or less. Between the three Sonic has the best run speed, Greninja has the fastest walk and fall speed while also having the highest jump and ZSS has the best air speed. A possible 4th candidate would be Fox though his air speed is pretty mediocre. He does beat Greninja in walk and fall speed though.

dont forget Wario, good dash and walk speed, arguably great jump height, amazing aerial mobility and acceleration/friction, and a decent crawl to boot

 

[DanGR]

@ParanoidDrone
Following up on what I said earlier, I think I displayed some pretty good fox trot movement in this game at times.

 

[FullMoon]

dont forget Wario, good dash and walk speed, arguably great jump height, amazing aerial mobility and acceleration/friction, and a decent crawl to boot

Wario's walk speed is bottom 5 and his run speed is pretty average/mediocre. His aerial mobility is amazing though, that I can't question. He also has the bike for help on the ground which is a big deal too.

His physics are more focused on the air though, while the other 3 are great both on the ground and in the air

 

[Routa]

I was expecting that someone would mention Mii Swordfighter's Dair. It is pretty damn good.

 

[Shaya]

Can I have very concrete reasons that Marth is better than Roy? I'm sick of having stupid arguments with people on Reddit over this. Everyone is convinced that Roy is a better character, and they defend him with blanket statements and trivial comparisons. I need hard facts, people. Sick of this ****.

Paging @Emblem Lord

Well I'm no EL but

1. Marth has a noticeably better recovery
2. Marth has significantly better off stage capabilities, allowing him to go for gimps or off stage harassment.
3. Has variability in his aerial usage that Roy just doesn't have (can sh aerial and still act, can short hop air dodge as an approach). Roy would be insane for using any other aerial than nair in a neutral or disadvantaged scenario. This is the biggest point and a hard thing for non-experienced players to grasp, when Marth is in the air he has many options, when Roy is in the air he has one option. He can side-b1 but it doesn't stall momentum/mix up landings like it does for Marth, his neutral-b is shorter range than Marth's and shouldn't be working very often considering it does very little to shields (in contrast) and high start up.
4. Roy's sour spots in some cases are not very helpful to his game play.
5. Shorter range than Marth in most cases (Fsmash not being one of them)

Roy is "better" than Marth because he does more damage for successful hits than Marth does, and for the most part both characters should be similar in capabilities for getting the initial hit. This is the mid level impression difference in a nut shell.
However, both are unsafe on shield (with them sharing similar capabilities on the moves which are safe-ish) and tend to be telegraphed approaching. Marth's better aerial control suddenly starts to make Marth shine in more difficult match ups as his variability in timing and ability to mix up is superior to Roy, if Roy is successful 50% of the time with more single hit reward compared to Marth being successful 60% of the time but with less reward (magic numbers), Marth is going to end up better in almost every match up at tournament level if both sides know the match up.

In terms of follow ups, Marth is getting sour spot follow ups on aerials at nearly all percent (or solid trap base) and can be more aggressive in juggling while Roy tends to be cooped up to the ground forced to punish landing attempts. As player skill rises, Roy's single hits at 50% success rate is going to mean less a majority of the time (bar the enemy landing into fsmash) to Marth's 60% success rate with more immediate follow up options available to him.

Oh yeah, ledge trump back air.... can Roy do that? tipper bair can kill sub 100% at the ledge against a lot of the cast.
And then there's the grab game argument. MEH. You are not getting smash attacks or up-bs with good DI at kill percent. But this does allow Roy "easier" damage that Marth can't claim to compare to.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks Shaya. We now have something to quote/copy-paste whenever we have a Marth Roy discussion.

 

[Browny]

Roy is "better" than Marth because he does more damage for successful hits than Marth does, and for the most part both characters should be similar in capabilities for getting the initial hit. This is the mid level impression difference in a nut shell.
However, both are unsafe on shield (with them sharing similar capabilities on the moves which are safe-ish) and tend to be telegraphed approaching. Marth's better aerial control suddenly starts to make Marth shine in more difficult match ups as his variability in timing and ability to mix up is superior to Roy, if Roy is successful 50% of the time with more single hit reward compared to Marth being successful 60% of the time but with less reward (magic numbers), Marth is going to end up better in almost every match up at tournament level if both sides know the match up.

In terms of follow ups, Marth is getting sour spot follow ups on aerials at nearly all percent (or solid trap base) and can be more aggressive in juggling while Roy tends to be cooped up to the ground forced to punish landing attempts. As player skill rises, Roy's single hits at 50% success rate is going to mean less a majority of the time (bar the enemy landing into fsmash) to Marth's 60% success rate with more immediate follow up options available to him.

What about Roys grab/throw game which is really good vs Marth's awful one in comparison.

I feel the difference in their grab and throw game alone is enough to make up for Roys comparative weakness to Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

Meh.

They have the same end lag on their throws.

In Roy's case you DI both Fthrow and Dthrow forward so no DI tricks between those two moves.

Roy's Bthrow is useless he can't send anyone off-stage with it and everybody is DIing Roy forward anyway so even worse.

Roy's Uthrow simply does less KB than Marth's while having a less vertical (more DIable) angle.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

sheiks bair is integral to her edgeuarding game

zss' is fairly big and kills early, same goes for ness.

luc's bair is actually one of his better moves, considering it's decently fast and has a good hitbox.

none of those character have bad bairs except for maybe oli

There's actually nothing decently fast about Lucas's 15 frame bair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What about Roys grab/throw game which is really good vs Marth's awful one in comparison.

I feel the difference in their grab and throw game alone is enough to make up for Roys comparative weakness to Marth.

Replace "Roy" with "Ike", you would be correct. Roy's grab game, as good as it is, is ironically his biggest downfall competitively. It simply isn't broken enough to make him consistent. He sorta depends on fairly hard reads to actually kill you reasonably out of grab.

Compare Ike in contrast who has guaranteed KO combos out of grab and even better positional setups for edgeguards from his side throws...yeah. That compensates for a lot competitively.

 

[Shaya]

Roy's grab game is as such.
"On wifi I'm forced to air dodge because proximity and lack of feasibility of reacting to roy's follow up choice makes it necessary"
They do a lot of damage while they're real, but beyond that... it's really relying on player's mistakes.
Roy's throw game is not "really good" in comparison to Marth's "awful". His fthrow traps into fair/bair reliably, dthrow uair/bair works for a while it's just most Marth's are going to opt for positional advantage with fthrow at early percent over "awkward juggles" that require double jumps to reach at even low percent.

Meanwhile (as A2 states) Ike is Mr "everything leads into forward air" (that auto cancels, that can be safe on shield, that outranges/disjoints everyone and that can be combo'd out of too [+kills fresh])

 

[Ikes]

Well I'm no EL but

1. Marth has a noticeably better recovery
2. Marth has significantly better off stage capabilities, allowing him to go for gimps or off stage harassment.
3. Has variability in his aerial usage that Roy just doesn't have (can sh aerial and still act, can short hop air dodge as an approach). Roy would be insane for using any other aerial than nair in a neutral or disadvantaged scenario. This is the biggest point and the hardest thing for non-experienced players to grasp, when Marth is in the air he has many options, when Roy is in the air he has one option. He can side-b1 but it doesn't stall momentum/mix up landings like it does for Marth, his neutral-b is shorter range than Marth's and shouldn't be working very often considering it does very little to shields (in contrast) and high start up.
4. Roy's sour spots in some cases are not very helpful to his game play.
5. Shorter range than Marth in most cases (Fsmash not being one of them)

Roy is "better" than Marth because he does more damage for successful hits than Marth does, and for the most part both characters should be similar in capabilities for getting the initial hit. This is the mid level impression difference in a nut shell.
However, both are unsafe on shield (with them sharing similar capabilities on the moves which are safe-ish) and tend to be telegraphed approaching. Marth's better aerial control suddenly starts to make Marth shine in more difficult match ups as his variability in timing and ability to mix up is superior to Roy, if Roy is successful 50% of the time with more single hit reward compared to Marth being successful 60% of the time but with less reward (magic numbers), Marth is going to end up better in almost every match up at tournament level if both sides know the match up.

In terms of follow ups, Marth is getting sour spot follow ups on aerials at nearly all percent (or solid trap base) and can be more aggressive in juggling while Roy tends to be cooped up to the ground forced to punish landing attempts. As player skill rises, Roy's single hits at 50% success rate is going to mean less a majority of the time (bar the enemy landing into fsmash) to Marth's 60% success rate with more immediate follow up options available to him.

Oh yeah, ledge trump back air.... can Roy do that? tipper bair can kill sub 100% at the ledge against a lot of the cast.
And then there's the grab game argument. MEH. You are not getting smash attacks or up-bs with good DI at kill percent. But this does allow Roy "easier" damage that Marth can't claim to compare to.

do people just not use roy's fair? it's good.

 

[Mario766]

Replace "Roy" with "Ike", you would be correct. Roy's grab game, as good as it is, is ironically his biggest downfall competitively. It simply isn't broken enough to make him consistent. He sorta depends on fairly hard reads to actually kill you reasonably out of grab.

Compare Ike in contrast who has guaranteed KO combos out of grab and even better positional setups for edgeguards from his side throws...yeah. That compensates for a lot competitively.

Ike doesn't have guaranteed KO combos out of grab. The closest thing he has is up throw f-air at the ledge on fast fallers but this is either DIable or they will live it with proper survival DI.

 

[Routa]

do people just not use roy's fair? it's good.

But the question is... Is it Ike good?

 

[Sinister Slush]

On the subject of bairs, I hope this patch fixes some of Yoshi's multihit or frame data issues, but at the same time because of being out for a tournament venue as soon as it hits 10 AM until Sunday when I get back I don't wanna play on the previous patch (one we're on right now) and play on the newly updated one if there's any balance changes.

Anyways, Yoshi's Bair is bad cause it's inconsistent with all three hits landing, laggy as hell, and doesn't autocancel from a shorthop anymore like brawl.
Barely reliable for a kill move cause requires 3rd hit only to land/kill which takes awhile to get out while the first two hits can either spike them (wait what? is prolly what you're thinking reading that) or knock them away but not enough KB regardless of damage + rage to kill them.

Please give back Yoshi's Brawl Bair. '_>'

 

[Routa]

As far as I know Ganondorf has awesome Bair. It has very strong KO power, comes out kinda fast and has nice range for none swordfighter.

 

[Browny]

Replace "Roy" with "Ike", you would be correct. Roy's grab game, as good as it is, is ironically his biggest downfall competitively. It simply isn't broken enough to make him consistent. He sorta depends on fairly hard reads to actually kill you reasonably out of grab.

Compare Ike in contrast who has guaranteed KO combos out of grab and even better positional setups for edgeguards from his side throws...yeah. That compensates for a lot competitively.

Fast character has a good grab/throw game -> biggest downfall competitively. Right.

Is Fox's good rushdown and boxing his biggest downfall competitively, does Ike beat him there too?

 

[Minordeth]

So who has the best bair again? Well, to make it more simple, I'll add this caveat - who has the best Bair for killing. Probably Falco, with the generous autocancel window, knockback, and hilarious speed. Second would probably be Ganon. His Bair frame data is almost identical to Falcon's, with the exception that his default landing lag is 22 to CF's 12. However, his autocancel window is a smidgen more forgiving, and his base knockback is 40 with solid growth.

And now, some TL:DR analysis of other mentioned characters:

Bowser - His bair does stupid high damage at 19, but the FAF is 45, the autocancel window is too narrow to be even moderately useful and his landing lag is 40. Ironically, his bair is a frame fast than CF and the Dorf at 9.

Sonic - Good damage and good knockback, although it's brought down by being too slow, with the first frame coming in at 13 and having the same limited AC window as CF which makes that 30 frame landing a bit hard to swallow.

Ike - Ike's is pretty ridiculous. It's frame 7. It does good damage, and the knockback growth is pretty high. The only downside is the rather large FAF at 55, but Ike can autocancel after 35, which makes his a contender.

Fox - His Bair is all about cancels. His AC window is the most generous of the characters so far, and his landing lag if you miss that AC window (somehow?) is not overwhelming at only 15. What keeps him a bit away from the top is that his damage, while almost Ike and CF levels is 13, and it's frame 9. Still a good tool that you will see Megafox and Larry use efficiently for kills.

Ryu's is also excellent, btw.

Now let's take a look at some weird Bairs, since you are already asleep:

Charizard - This really fits Charizard's janky moveset. In a heavy character that has a frame 4 jab, incredibly useful AC filled Nair, super armor galore, and a hilarious throw game, you have one of the weirder bairs in the game - perfect for Charizard's amalgamut of a tool kit. His Bair is frame 14, the FAF is 46, his landing lag is atrocious, and the AC window is >44. Gross. Is there anything good about it? Oh yes, if you get hit with it, you will probably die. The base damage is 15 and the base knockback is one of the highest in the game at 50. Combine that with solid growth and a heavy character, and you have a bizarre punish coming from a bizarre character.

Zelda - Wow, a frame 6 bair that can do 20 damage?! Where do I sign u- oh, it only does 4 damage sourspotted? The AC window really only begins after 52 frames, and the FAF is 53? So every time I want to use it, I have to eat almost half a second of landing lag? I guess I better always sweet spot it!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fast character has a good grab/throw game -> biggest downfall competitively. Right.

Is Fox's good rushdown and boxing his biggest downfall competitively, does Ike beat him there too?

False equivalency much? The simple fact that Roy's grab game is unreliable is literally the main thing stopping him from being super viable.

Then there's also his terrible disadvantage state (which makes his matchups against Ike and Marth pretty unwinnable, honestly when Counter edgeguard shifts the matchup by probably no less than 10 points), but to be serious, Roy has trouble killing you safely. That's all it really comes down to. His grab game is good, even great for damage dealing, but he has to read you relatively hard to actually kill you. He has really limited and telegraphed edgeguards, doesn't have good aerial autocancels, his good U-air isn't a KO move forever, and his ground KO moves have high commitment, so even after a D-throw, Roy isn't exactly completely safe when he's trying to trap you into a kill.

So the extent to which his grab game is better than Marth's is honestly not as huge as you originally implied. Marth also has some low% combos out of D-throw, and Marth also has the benefit of considerably less linear edgeguards meaning he benefits more from his side throws. In a vaccuum, Roy's grab game seems amazing, but in actual practice it isn't benefiting Roy as much as you're suggesting.

Ike doesn't have guaranteed KO combos out of grab. The closest thing he has is up throw f-air at the ledge on fast fallers but this is either DIable or they will live it with proper survival DI.

Stale U-throw combos reliably into F-air on several of the top characters and more at KO percents. And no you can't DI it if the Ike reacts correctly.

 

[TriTails]

On the subject of bairs, I hope this patch fixes some of Yoshi's multihit or frame data issues, but at the same time because of being out for a tournament venue as soon as it hits 10 AM until Sunday when I get back I don't wanna play on the previous patch (one we're on right now) and play on the newly updated one if there's any balance changes.

Anyways, Yoshi's Bair is bad cause it's inconsistent with all three hits landing, laggy as hell, and doesn't autocancel from a shorthop anymore like brawl.
Barely reliable for a kill move cause requires 3rd hit only to land/kill which takes awhile to get out while the first two hits can either spike them (wait what? is prolly what you're thinking reading that) or knock them away but not enough KB regardless of damage + rage to kill them.

Please give back Yoshi's Brawl Bair. '_>'

Yoshi's B-air is bigger than the sun tho... 120 size of hitbox wtf.

Though, I agree it's a laggy move.

Anyhoo, I look forward on balance patches because they are usually interesting. I don't care much on the potential nerfs on Luigi because what can they do on my character picking?

Hope they nerf Sheik fairly but reasonably. Just make her needles do fixed, non-tumbling knockback and we're good.

And buff Zelda.

 

[Shaya]

I like Yoshi's back air though.
I'm used to complicated multi hit moves which if not given enough love and attention will go super tsun on you.

It covers "roughly" 16 frames, which can cover just about every air dodge or grounded dodge. And auto cancels 19~ frames after the final hit.
I think full hop falling usages or double jump rising usages allow for more consistency or "better" rewards.

 

[RayNoire]

If you want to talk weird Bairs, Mewtwo's Bair can be used as his Uair. It's actually got more vertical range.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox may not have the best bair in the game if you look at it in a vacuum. It's still a hugely important move in his arsenal though - his trap game, combo game, pressure game and capability to get kills all would be incomplete, if not straight-up inadequate, if he didn't have that back air. Sure he's not gonna just throw it out as freely as his nair but even a bair that's supposedly better [like Falco's] wouldn't make the character as complete as this bair does. It simply fits into his moveset perfectly and makes a lot of things work. Looking at it from that angle you could argue that Fox may have the most crucial bair among all the characters.

 

[Smog Frog]

what dairs are particularly bad in this game? few of them stand out to me as such.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

what dairs are particularly bad in this game? few of them stand out to me as such.

There's a lot of underwhelming dairs in this game. Fox and Peach are among the only characters where dair is a fully integral part of their moveset. Wario, Villager and Yoshi and maybe a few other characters have dairs that are more than just situational tools. Those characters are really rare though. Most other dairs are either bad [Little Mac, Bowser, ...], very situational [offstage gimps with impractical dairs ... Mewtwo, Charizard, Zelda, ... you name it] or mostly used as a movement option [Sonic, ZSS, Sheik].

 

[adom4]

what dairs are particularly bad in this game? few of them stand out to me as such.

Sheik's Dair is pretty bad.

 

[Ikes]

Toon links might seem bad, but it actually has a really nice use

if you try to bait an opponent to punish your landing, since when link uses this move, it moves his hurtbox up and above the disjointed hitbox and stalls him in the air for a moment, it can effectively be used as a bait & punish move all in one.

 

[Routa]

what dairs are particularly bad in this game? few of them stand out to me as such.

Tink, Sheik, Sonic

 

[Wintropy]

what dairs are particularly bad in this game? few of them stand out to me as such.

Palutena's is pretty mediocre if you aren't running Super Speed or Lightweight, or if you aren't totally adept at warp-cancel tricks. Due to the tiny range, minimal damage, unsafe-on-shield application and incredibly finicky sweetspot, it's very difficult to spike with it and the damage output hardly warrants using it except as a very funky mixup.

It's kinda like Pit's, without the virtue of it being a disjointed combo tool and semi-reliable spike.