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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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LancerStaff

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If her attacks were different than I'd hope that would change her a little.


And justifying as in, a reason to use Lucina beyond Waifu Emblem and "I like Lucina"
Most of the time they find a way to ruin a character with the differences... Most of Marth's are already great for the type of character he is.

They could have at least given her Awakening combat stance rather than just copying Marth's. In Melee, all the clones had different idle stances than their clones. Hell, Roy has 2 unique idle stance: one in Melee and one in Smash 4; they're completely different to each other and Marth's.
They could of done a lot of things, but they were pretty much out of time.

I'd say "be happy with what you got," but Lucina is literally the worst character design to ever come out of Smash. Dark Pit somehow managed to be better off because of how little effort went into him... Doc even turned out bad because Sakurai wasn't lazy with him.
 

wm1026

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Well speaking of Ryu.. What are his bad matchups? Who does he lose to or do we even know yet?
 

Sir Tundra

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They could of done a lot of things, but they were pretty much out of time.

I'd say "be happy with what you got," but Lucina is literally the worst character design to ever come out of Smash. Dark Pit somehow managed to be better off because of how little effort went into him... Doc even turned out bad because Sakurai wasn't lazy with him.

Doc's design just never made sense. In melee he was basically better then mario in almost every way except for recovery but in
smash 4 it's almost the exact opposite. I know doc was always meant to be a slower but more powerful version of mario since melee(Read his adventure trophy description) but it just flat out doesn't work. I mean how could wearing a lab coat and black pants possibly make you slower? It just doesn't make sense. ah oh well what you get is what you get I suppose.
 
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Pyr

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Doc's design just never made sense. In melee he was basically better then mario in almost every way except for recovery but in
smash 4 it's almost the exact opposite. I know doc was always meant to be a slower but more powerful version of mario since melee(Read his adventure trophy description) but it just flat out doesn't work. I mean how could wearing a lab coat and black pants possibly make you slower? It just doesn't make sense. ah oh well what you get is what you get I suppose.
Well, he hits harder, so is "more powerful." Least that's the justification.

Also, you go from a manual labor job in plumbing to specific fields in medicine and you're going to pack on a few pounds.
 

C0rvus

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From a competitive standpoint, I agree that Lucina is poorly designed. However, consider the design choice from a casual standpoint. She's like "Marth lite" or something. My younger sister loves using Lucina (probably because she's a girl, but whatever). I think Melee Roy's design is bad to the point of absurdity. Sure, the inverse of Marth things could work, but they did little to accommodate that decision and slapped a faster fall speed and worse recovery on him. At least Lucina can keep up with Marth for the most part, but that's what makes her so pointless; she is literally just a downgrade.

If she was just a bit faster and maybe a bit lighter to compensate, or had some moves changed, her existence would be validated. I always thought they could make her more of a fencer, using thrusting moves with less coverage but less cooldown.

I've heard that she is the preferred choice over Marth for the Pikachu MU; maybe because Pika is hard to hit with tippers? Doesn't seem like a legitimate reason, but hey, comfort is important in high-pressure situations. Whatever helps you succeed.

Also, consider Doc in a 1.0 environment where vectoring made combos barely exist and surviving longer easier. Doc's better power blow-for-blow and Up-B OoS that kills might make him a better choice overall. He could live longer as well, so his poor recovery would be less of an issue as well. The game mechanics that have changed have been a nerf to Doctor Mario indirectly.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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Doc's design just never made sense. In melee he was basically better then mario in almost every way except for recovery but in
smash 4 it's almost the exact opposite. I know doc was always meant to be a slower but more powerful version of mario since melee(Read his adventure trophy description) but it just flat out doesn't work. I mean how could wearing a lab coat and black pants possibly make you slower? It just doesn't make sense.
Neither does a fox with a laser gun and the power to engulf himself in flames to fly in the air trying to knock a green plummer that can summon fire off of a flying piece of land but :4fox: vs :4luigi: is quite a normal sight in Smash 4.
 

Nobie

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Not to derail this too much, but Mario is a physical blue collar worker, Dr. Mario is a white collar doctor who sits around all day.
 

Ffamran

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They could of done a lot of things, but they were pretty much out of time.

I'd say "be happy with what you got," but Lucina is literally the worst character design to ever come out of Smash. Dark Pit somehow managed to be better off because of how little effort went into him... Doc even turned out bad because Sakurai wasn't lazy with him.
Oh, there's much, much worse... Zelda for instance when each game has people complaining about how underwhelming she is. In each game, she's been reliant on 3 moves: Down Smash, Fair, and Bair, that weren't changed as much unlike Utilt, Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or gaining a new Down Special that on paper, would be a great move in any mode, but it does not function properly. They could have give it a weight-based hitbox for the "tackle" so it would link into the rest of the hit, but whatever.

Dr. Mario in Smash 4 is what Melee Dr. Mario was supposed to be: a slower, stronger Mario, but they ended up making him have a faster air speed and the same speed for rest of him. Melee Doc was a stronger and even faster Mario. Game development is difficult and stressful, but come on, really? It's like saying Ganondorf is the slower, stronger Captain Falcon, but he ends up running as Sonic's speed in Melee. The main issue is that Dr. Mario is too slow and not strong enough for that speed. That speed is more like Ganondorf where Dr. Mario should be about as strong as him which he is... for Fair. Dr. Mario running at Olimar or Luigi's speed would be fine, but once again whatever.

Dan from Street Fighter, the joke character, but in the right hands, this dude was a monster. In Smash? The joke character is Zelda and she's not even supposed to be the joke character. The "joke characters" in Smash are characters like Duck Hunt, Wario, Triple D, Diddy, Luigi, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer where they make you laugh, do silly things, or make you question if that's even possible like WFT murdering people with yoga or Luigi poking you to death. Melee did have a joke character, Pichu, but after that, it's pretty much Zelda who's bad in every game, who even gets worse with the developers' believing such a change like Farore's Wind killing would be beneficial to her - it does, but that's like giving Shulk a stronger Dair while ignoring his other issues. She doesn't have trouble killing, but she has trouble in general when you have 3 sweet-spot aerials, Smashes that don't connect properly which have been fixed finally, and pretty much reliant on a bare minimum of moves. When people talk about Ganondorf making reads, it's true, but he has an entire moveset to make reads that also function as his core of punishing, spacing, and comboing. Zelda? Her reads are much riskier to use and flubbing them means a dead princess.

That's a much, much worse character design when people complain about it, know it's flawed, and yet you continue to leave it like that while making superficial changes or even making it worse. Din's Fire could have been her Down Special and made into an AOE attack just like in Ocarina of Time - it's the only Great Fairy's gift that doesn't remotely resemble the OoT counterparts - while Light Arrow or a different projectile could have been her Neutral Special. Lucina being Marth without tippers is bad since it does undermine her and a character that could have been, but guess what? She functions well unlike Zelda, Dr. Mario functions well unlike Zelda, and Dark Pit damn well functions when outside of Side Special, all his other "changes" aren't that much different.
 
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LancerStaff

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Oh, there's much, much worse... Zelda for instance when each game has people complaining about how underwhelming she is. In each game, she's been reliant on 3 moves: Down Smash, Fair, and Bair, that weren't changed as much unlike Utilt, Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or gaining a new Down Special that on paper, would be a great move in any mode, but it does not function properly. They could have give it a weight-based hitbox for the "tackle" so it would link into the rest of the hit, but whatever.

Dr. Mario in Smash 4 is what Melee Dr. Mario was supposed to be: a slower, stronger Mario, but they ended up making him have a faster air speed and the same speed for rest of him. Melee Doc was a stronger and even faster Mario. Game development is difficult and stressful, but come on, really? It's like saying Ganondorf is the slower, stronger Captain Falcon, but he ends up running as Sonic's speed in Melee. The main issue is that Dr. Mario is too slow and not strong enough for that speed. That speed is more like Ganondorf where Dr. Mario should be about as strong as him which he is... for Fair. Dr. Mario running at Olimar or Luigi's speed would be fine, but once again whatever.

Dan from Street Fighter, the joke character, but in the right hands, this dude was a monster. In Smash? The joke character is Zelda and she's not even supposed to be the joke character. The "joke characters" in Smash are characters like Duck Hunt, Wario, Triple D, Diddy, Luigi, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer where they make you laugh, do silly things, or make you question if that's even possible like WFT murdering people with yoga or Luigi poking you to death. Melee did have a joke character, Pichu, but after that, it's pretty much Zelda who's bad in every game, who even gets worse with the developers' believing such a change like Farore's Wind killing would be beneficial to her - it does, but that's like giving Shulk a stronger Dair while ignoring his other issues. She doesn't have trouble killing, but she has trouble in general when you have 3 sweet-spot aerials, Smashes that don't connect properly which have been fixed finally, and pretty much reliant on a bare minimum of moves. When people talk about Ganondorf making reads, it's true, but he has an entire moveset to make reads that also function as his core of punishing, spacing, and comboing. Zelda? Her reads are much riskier to use and flubbing them means a dead princess.

That's a much, much worse character design when people complain about it, know it's flawed, and yet you continue to leave it like that while making superficial changes or even making it worse. Din's Fire could have been her Down Special and made into an AOE attack just like in Ocarina of Time - it's the only Great Fairy's gift that doesn't remotely resemble the OoT counterparts - while Light Arrow or a different projectile could have been her Neutral Special. Lucina being Marth without tippers is bad since it does undermine her and a character that could have been, but guess what? She functions well unlike Zelda, Dr. Mario functions well unlike Zelda, and Dark Pit damn well functions when outside of Side Special, all his other "changes" aren't that much different.
You forget that Smash is built for FFAs... Zelda and all her friends in the "low tiers" work much better in FFAs. Well, besides maybe Doc and definitely Lucina.

And you forgot Pittwo's actual biggest difference in the terrible arrows... Besides what we've just mentioned it's only different KB on ftilt and the Final Smash.
 

Vipermoon

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Warning Received
All these possible Lucina changes people think of are not necessary. Only playing around with Lucina's damage output during patches was for good reason. For once, we can embrace the clone-ness of a character with open arms. She serves a purpose. She is Marth-lite because there are Smash players out there that don't want to deal with tippers. If she was different in other ways, you are making things complicated with things like: "well why does only Lucina/Marth get this?" from people saying "I like the idea of tippers but since Lucina has this and that... and is this and that... I have to use her."

She is fine with this philosophy and something like what I have down here to, again, further embrace the clone-ness and the "Marth disguise" idea from her game would be perfect.

How to make Lucina perfect...

Let her keep her Mask on for her down taunt until the player decides to take it off. Here is everything that changes when Lucina is wearing it:

- In addition to putting the mask on, she tucks her hair in so that she looks exactly like she does in Awakening with the short hair and everything
- Her name next to her percent is changed to "Marth?"
- Her standing animations are now identical to Marth's (NVM they already are)
- Her taunts are now Marth's except in English which would be really cool
- She takes the mask off with down taunt still but only with a special input (double tap, light tap, or hold button)
- During counter, she says (in English) the Marth counter quotes (that are actually missing from the english version of this game) which would be even cooler
- Let's say Lucina somehow wins a match, her victory lines and animations will also match Marth's (again, English) which would be infinitely cool
- However, during the victory the announcer still says Lucina wins as he is all-knowing and will not fall for this trickery
- Otherwise, all of her usual voice clips are removed during her attacks to help disguise her femininity. It'll be like wire frame Little Mac

This will not help Lucina perform and will definitely not help differentiate her but it's hilarious and I feel they missed out on a huge opportunity.
 
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hypersonicJD

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No. It wouldn't be perfect at all. If we wanted a Marth looking character. We choose Marth. Not a wanna-be. I do like Lucina and I would appreciate that her attacks are faster but tiperless. That would make her interesting to use and not just a pretty lame Marth Clone. I have always hated Marth. Tipper Forward Smash kills at ****ing 60%? that is really disgusting for me. Not even Roy has that much power. And Tipper Forward Smash isn't hard to get with Marth. I really hate that game mechanic because just for a single mistake or a combo you get killed so early and without a chance to live. Lucina can kill at the same percent though (although it's not a tipper Forward Smash. It's a Sweet-spot. Just to get more tecnical). Vipermoon might really hate me for this but I really would like Lucina to either get banished and be a costume for Marth, or give her more speed on her attacks with the trade-in of Tipper attacks.
 

Vipermoon

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I would like to share a secret. I don't like tipper Fsmash much and I'm a Marth main. Things like this and some of the nerfs turn him into this berserker character rather than the one we were used to. In fact, I don't like pretty much every move in this game that kills too early. Kill power in this game has skyrocketed (at the same time, damage plummeted) compared to previous games. Too many things are "too strong." Basically, most Smash attacks. Generally speaking, Smash attacks in this game do less damage, much more knockback, and lag more. Then you have rage and weakened DI to add to the fire.

That's just me. I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character can take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really.

This is MY OPINION guys.
 
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LancerStaff

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All these possible Lucina changes people think of are not necessary. Only playing around with Lucina's damage output during patches was for good reason. For once, we can embrace the clone-ness of a character with open arms. She serves a purpose. She is Marth-lite because there are Smash players out there that don't want to deal with tippers. If she was different in other ways, you are making things complicated with things like: "well why does only Lucina/Marth get this?" from people saying "I like the idea of tippers but since Lucina has this and that... and is this and that... I have to use her."

She is fine with this philosophy and something like what I have down here to, again, further embrace the clone-ness and the "Marth disguise" idea from her game would be perfect.
Don't want tippers? :4pit::4darkpit: say hi. Two moves have (extremely lenient) tippers and another is Roy-like.

Actually, yaknow that "faster but weaker" thing people want Lucina to be? That's these two, but with more range, a godly recovery, a great projectile, and a grab game that doesn't rely on one janky move. There's no point in embracing her gimmick because it's been done already.
 

カワシさん

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I would like to share a secret. I don't like tipper Fsmash much and I'm a Marth main. Things like this and some of the nerfs turn him into this berserker character rather than the one we were used to. In fact, I don't like pretty much every move in this game that kills too early. Kill power in this game has skyrocketed (at the same time, damage plummeted) compared to previous games. I don't like pretty much every move in this game that is "too strong." Basically, most Smash attacks. Generally speaking, Smash attacks in this game do less damage, much more knockback, and lag more. Then you have rage and weakened DI to add to the fire.

That's just me. I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really.

This is MY OPINION guys.
I main Marth and this makes sense. Fsmash tippers are still a bit nice except for me at least I disregard tippers a lot except only for either Marth's meteor or Fair (for edgeguarding).

Also I'm also a big fan of kills via edgeguards, gimps, etc. Speaking of Roy, I use him occasionally but I hate myself when I kill that final stock for a close Fsmash at 50-60%. Still a great nessecity when trying to score a desperate kill, especially since NOT hitting the sweetspot makes the attack REALLY weak. This is why I prefer Pit over Marth, since it takes skill to win a match without early-kill methods (unless you count gimping a player who is at 0%). It's simple: He has none. This also seems to be the case as to why many FG players pick characters like Little Mac, Ganondorf, Bowser, Captain Falcon, etc., all of which have many great attacks that kill a bit earlier than usual, as opposed to Mario, Pit, Pac-Man, etc.
 

Vipermoon

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I main Marth and this makes sense. Fsmash tippers are still a bit nice except for me at least I disregard tippers a lot except only for either Marth's meteor or Fair (for edgeguarding).

Also I'm also a big fan of kills via edgeguards, gimps, etc. Speaking of Roy, I use him occasionally but I hate myself when I kill that final stock for a close Fsmash at 50-60%. Still a great nessecity when trying to score a desperate kill, especially since NOT hitting the sweetspot makes the attack REALLY weak. This is why I prefer Pit over Marth, since it takes skill to win a match without early-kill methods (unless you count gimping a player who is at 0%). It's simple: He has none. This also seems to be the case as to why many FG players pick characters like Little Mac, Ganondorf, Bowser, Captain Falcon, etc., all of which have many great attacks that kill a bit earlier than usual, as opposed to Mario, Pit, Pac-Man, etc.
Yes. Except the Mario part. His Fsmash is one of those Smash attacks.
 

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I would like to share a secret. I don't like tipper Fsmash much and I'm a Marth main. Things like this and some of the nerfs turn him into this berserker character rather than the one we were used to. In fact, I don't like pretty much every move in this game that kills too early. Kill power in this game has skyrocketed (at the same time, damage plummeted) compared to previous games. I don't like pretty much every move in this game that is "too strong." Basically, most Smash attacks. Generally speaking, Smash attacks in this game do less damage, much more knockback, and lag more. Then you have rage and weakened DI to add to the fire.

That's just me. I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really.

This is MY OPINION guys.
This is one of the reasons I advocate for a 3 stock meta.
But that's a discussion for another thread.
I see what you're saying but not everyone has a dumb kill move that's reliable. And one of the things people don't like about this game is that stocks allegedly "drag on for too long" and stupid early kill moves (which I don't believe are that common) do help solve that alleged issue.
And what you're saying really brings Lucas to mind. His sheer damage output in Brawl just isn't here anymore. His killpower in his throws especially has increased, while damage per hit decreased. To compensate, hitstun canceling is no more and multi hit moves (NAIR) link properly, so combos exist. But now his Nair doesn't apply incredible shield pressure anymore and does a mere 8%. But hey, it can combo into stuff now. These are just universal changes within the game's physics. Are they for the better? Are they worse? That's up to you.
 

カワシさん

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Yes. Except the Mario part. His Fsmash is one of those Smash attacks.
Really? Huh, never knew that.. I use Dr. Mario and I always thought Mario was okay in pretty much everything (recovery, atk power, etc.).

Speaking of which, I just want to put my thoughts out there. I think Dr. Mario is actually a good clone in terms of concept. Heck I can use a lot of character in the roster, yet I can use Doc. and not Mario. As for Pit and DP.. yeah, pretty much the same.
 

LancerStaff

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That's just me. I prefer things like edgeguards, gimps, traps, and combos over Smash 4's current 'almost any character take a stock in a 2 stock meta with some dumb early kill really strong move.' A big offender that comes to mind is Roy's Fsmash. Marth's take some real skill. Roy's? Not really.
Yaknow, I haven't wanted to say this because I figured you had reasons to stick with Marth, but why haven't you moved over to Pit? That's literally what he is.
 

Vipermoon

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Yaknow, I haven't wanted to say this because I figured you had reasons to stick with Marth, but why haven't you moved over to Pit? That's literally what he is.
I'm a Marth player. It's that simple. I like the character and he is fun for me. For every complaint I have 5 compliments.
 
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Ikes

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you all are forgetting that marth's untippered attacks combo better than lucina's attacks.

Meaning even marths sourspots have utility and upsides, which makes lucina that much worse in comparison


also as a toon link main, I only have one complaint about his character:
his up b only sweetspots when recovering past a certain depth.

Sure its a minor complaint and i could just recover low, but spending more time offstage makes me that much more vulnerable to gimps and having to go a bit lower to recover safely is a bit uncomfortable. the fact that at a certain height he just spins past the ledge and then straight up hangs in the air saying "punish me!" is brutal.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Well speaking of Ryu.. What are his bad matchups? Who does he lose to or do we even know yet?
I think he loses to Rosalina pikachu and sheik maybe MM and pacman as well. Mario probably gives him problems too and Metaknight may beat him as well.
 

Teshie U

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you all are forgetting that marth's untippered attacks combo better than lucina's attacks.

Meaning even marths sourspots have utility and upsides, which makes lucina that much worse in comparison


also as a toon link main, I only have one complaint about his character:
his up b only sweetspots when recovering past a certain depth.

Sure its a minor complaint and i could just recover low, but spending more time offstage makes me that much more vulnerable to gimps and having to go a bit lower to recover safely is a bit uncomfortable. the fact that at a certain height he just spins past the ledge and then straight up hangs in the air saying "punish me!" is brutal.
If you are that close, why not just Zair?

If you think thats rough, look at Mii Brawler's default up B. Goes waaay past the ledge unless perfectly spaced. Without the massive hitbox Little Mac gets. I think its the only Up B that just goes right past the ledge all the time.
 

Ikes

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If you are that close, why not just Zair?

If you think thats rough, look at Mii Brawler's default up B. Goes waaay past the ledge unless perfectly spaced. Without the massive hitbox Little Mac gets. I think its the only Up B that just goes right past the ledge all the time.
because zair has dead zones right below the ledge IIRC, and wont grab unless you're a significantly diagonal angle from the ledge. and being horizontally away from the ledge with overall poor offstage game is pretty much a death sentence. so recovering from directly below the ledge is generally a better idea unless you're horizontal enough from the stage and within zair distance.
 
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カワシさん

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I understand, I guess... Not saying to abandon him, but I don't think putting some time into Pit would hurt.
One does not simply pick up another character.

I love Pit and he is my main, but unless you know how to use him, you won't get far. A tip is to learn basic combos with Pit, such as b-throw into dash attack, d-throw>go forward>up-smash. and even being able to chain d-throw>short-hop or jump>f-air a few times.
 

LancerStaff

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One does not simply pick up another character.

I love Pit and he is my main, but unless you know how to use him, you won't get far. A tip is to learn basic combos with Pit, such as b-throw into dash attack, d-throw>go forward>up-smash. and even being able to chain d-throw>short-hop or jump>f-air a few times.
You don't need to be a pro to get a secondary. Especially when it sounds like Vipermoon was born to play this character... I really don't like telling people how to play, but to me it looks like it's a massive waste of potential. Everything he sees as wrong in Smash 4 is just about fixed by picking a different character.

I understand what he's saying, and I won't press the matter. I'm just "weak" and would drop Pit like a hot stone if he was terrible and a completely different character fit me better. ...Actually, that last sentence right there is why I didn't want to start this conversation. Don't really know what to say without it sounding like "Marth is bad and Pit's just better, use him instead" if you read me. I'm too practical to put sentimental value over, yaknow, practicality. ...Ugh, doing it again...
 

カワシさん

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You don't need to be a pro to get a secondary. Especially when it sounds like Vipermoon was born to play this character... I really don't like telling people how to play, but to me it looks like it's a massive waste of potential. Everything he sees as wrong in Smash 4 is just about fixed by picking a different character.

I understand what he's saying, and I won't press the matter. I'm just "weak" and would drop Pit like a hot stone if he was terrible and a completely different character fit me better. ...Actually, that last sentence right there is why I didn't want to start this conversation. Don't really know what to say without it sounding like "Marth is bad and Pit's just better, use him instead" if you read me. I'm too practical to put sentimental value over, yaknow, practicality. ...Ugh, doing it again...
In my opinion it all depends on personal playstyle. Some people work better with characters that have bad recovery options than others. It's all in the player, which is why I'm not a tier list person. I don't really believe in the idea of using high-tier fighters in tournaments. You don't need to play a better character to win more matches. Heck, you could be in the tops with Little Mac if he fits you.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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In my opinion it all depends on personal playstyle. Some people work better with characters that have bad recovery options than others. It's all in the player, which is why I'm not a tier list person. I don't really believe in the idea of using high-tier fighters in tournaments. You don't need to play a better character to win more matches. Heck, you could be in the tops with Little Mac if he fits you.
I disagree with this. Tiers do exist and playing low tiers only get you so far. Ither than being a "low tier hero" there's no real reason to play a bad character. Unless of course you're a M. That's also not to say you will be gdlk just because you play top tiers. However, if you put in the work with a high tier character you'll see the results of your work wheras a low tier character you'll just middle along.
 

Pyr

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250% sure that going into the good old play who you want vs play the best discussion will waste pages and be OT all along the way.

On another note that might be slightly less off topic: That King K. Rool Trademark renewal? Ya. It's a Mii costume.
For now.
Not salty at all.
 

カワシさん

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I disagree with this. Tiers do exist and playing low tiers only get you so far. Ither than being a "low tier hero" there's no real reason to play a bad character. Unless of course you're a M. That's also not to say you will be gdlk just because you play top tiers. However, if you put in the work with a high tier character you'll see the results of your work wheras a low tier character you'll just middle along.
I see your point, but I really dislike how like for example half of the top Brawl players use Meta Knight, or a lot of Melee players use Fox and Falco. I just go with what works with me. I pay little attention to tiers unless it actually makes a difference in my opinion.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I see your point, but I really dislike how like for example half of the top Brawl players use Meta Knight, or a lot of Melee players use Fox and Falco. I just go with what works with me. I pay little attention to tiers unless it actually makes a difference in my opinion.
I think that's important (finding a character that suits your playstyle ) however you shouldn't handicap yourself at the character select screen. However, you can run into issues though with my process. I like to win and giving myself the best shot at winning. We are competitive players right?
 

Minordeth

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Tiers exist, but they aren't prescriptive guides. Tiers are basically theories in the classical sense: they are tested frameworks that describe why a given games top-level results are the way they are, and attempt to predict where they can be. They require data, though, to be robust (Like Melee, or Street Fighter 3rd Strike). We have nowhere near enough data to posit a tier list for Smash 4. And like I love to drive home, we may not ever. We have a vague idea of very top of the tier-list (Sheik), but I mean, look at Evo and the talk afterwards - who is number 2? ZSS? Rosa? Sonic? Pika? We can't even figure that out.

More importantly, we have no idea where the viable and non-viable categories exist, we can only work on likelihoods based on super limited data, shallow results, and limited prior probability based on theory. That's not to say we can't reason out which characters probably won't pay dividends in the future, but that kind of judgment is always easier at the ends of the curve (i.e., Zelda probably won't pay off, while Captain Falcon may).

It's irks me to no end when commentators, like the one in EL's video, casually talk about where any character other than Sheik sits on the Sm4sh tier list.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Doc's design just never made sense. In melee he was basically better then mario in almost every way except for recovery but in
smash 4 it's almost the exact opposite. I know doc was always meant to be a slower but more powerful version of mario since melee(Read his adventure trophy description) but it just flat out doesn't work. I mean how could wearing a lab coat and black pants possibly make you slower? It just doesn't make sense. ah oh well what you get is what you get I suppose.
Uh, the only reason Doc was better than Mario was space animal matchups where his D-throw D-smash combo actually matters. He was strictly worse than Mario in Melee in almost every other matchup aside from aforementioned spacies, and then Ganon and Samus which are like among the only matchups where Doc's better B-air gimps actually make a real difference.

Melee Mario had longer chaingrabs, better damage on most aerials, a Jab combo that couldn't be CC punished, and a GODLIKE F-smash for neutral. Especially due to his longer chaingrabs, he did noticeably better against Sheik and most of the lower tier characters (the latter of whom he generally invalidated, while Doc doesn't invalidate anyone because his chaingrabs aren't nearly that stupid). Mario's B-air not gimping as hard rarely ever mattered when most recoveries were just godawful in Melee and died to invincible ledgedrop B-air -> edgehog either way. Thanks to F-smash, Marth, Peach, and ICs matchups are noticeably better for Mario (especially ICs matchup. Doc loses this one 45/55, Mario wins 65/35 because his superior Jab combo and F-smash in combination with B-throw ruin the ICs completely in neutral).

So uh...how the hell do you ever assume that Doc was better than Mario in every way in Melee? Sure Mario is slightly better in Smash 4, but Doc has legitimate advantages that can't be ignored. Mario can't kill you for platform camping or ledge resetting in this game. Doc however has his Up-B for killing people in the air and out of shield, and Tornado/D-air for edgeguarding, not to mention Doc has real Jab cancel strings into Up-B, while Mario's Jab cancel is negative on hit. Doc's lower short hop also matters a lot especially against crouching and short characters, on top of his B-air doing a whopping 14%, which is effectively a Mario combo by itself.
 
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Nobie

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I think Lucina suffers from the fact that people still think of her as Patch 1.0.4 (or whatever the earliest one was) Lucina. Like, she might not be better than Marth, but she's continuously gotten buffs (especially damage buffs) throughout the patch history of Smash 4, many of which Marth didn't get, either. And yet people still hold onto the idea that she simply doesn't do enough damage, has too much shield lag relative to the strength of her attacks, etc.

Let's actually look at how much has happened to Lucina:

1.0.4
JAB 1
JAB 1 KNOCKBACK GROWTH
: 60 ⇒ 50
JAB 1 BASE KNOCKBACK : 25 ⇒ 20
COUNTER
BUGFIX
: Using Counter after being trumped from the ledge no longer changes momentum

1.0.6
Forward Air, Down Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Smash 2nd Strike, Uncharged Shield Breaker approx. 0.5% damage increases
Fully charged Shield Breaker approx. 1% damage increase
Forward Tilt IASA frame altered 39 -> 35
Jab IASA frame altered 29 -> 26
Dancing Blade
Alterations made for combo consistency
First strike IASA frame altered 45 -> 42

1.0.8
  • Jab 1
    • Transition frame reduced 21 → 17 (M) / 18 (L)
    • Angle altered from Sakurai Angle, more follow up prone
    • Ending frame increased from 26 → 28 frames (reversing 1.06)
  • Jab 2
    • Total Frame Count increased from 26 → 28
  • Up Tilt
    • Knock back increased
    • Ending frame reduced 42 → 39
    • Body hitbox angle now more vertical
  • Lucina Forward Tilt Damage increased by approx 1% (9.97% → 10.92%)
  • Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 15 → 12 frames
  • Dolphin Slash (Up-B) Knockback increased

It's a lot! Maybe it's still not enough to make Lucina really stand out, but a lot, and I think that Lucina competitive talk has to remember that she is something of a different character compared to how she was.
 
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Teshie U

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For less common characters, it is tough forming an accurate impression after a wave of buffs. Fighting a Marth in tournament recently really opened me up to some of the new stuff he has going too.

Can we talk about how broken Charizard is now?
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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For less common characters, it is tough forming an accurate impression after a wave of buffs. Fighting a Marth in tournament recently really opened me up to some of the new stuff he has going too.

Can we talk about how broken Charizard is now?
Charizard is still bad....
 

TriTails

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Tiers only matter in competitive play. If you are playing casually, then it doesn't as much.

I personally never cared much about the impact of tiers to my character selection. I picked up Luigi when he was 'bottom tier garbage' and still maining him. People say Ganon is bad yet I still play him. People say Doc has no things going for him (Protip: He has. A lot), I still kick ***es with him. People say Falco is nothing, still prefering the air on my side. People say Marth is not good, still slashing people with him.
 

Smog Frog

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away from the riveting clone discussion, there's something i want to talk about that pertains to the topic

i'm curious about other people's perception of :4luigi:. i think i made it clear that i think he's overrated and isn't top 10, and has random losing matchups to characters that are perceive as below him, but its clear that i am a very vocal minority. also request other's views on :4myfriends: and :4marth:.
 

Luco

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Not to spoil the news or anything for all of you cool cats, but this just came up on FB for me and thought I would share:

https://twitter.com/SmashBrosJP/status/626286066929000448

Apparently it translates to a new stage and tournament mode. We can only speculate on balance patches and it definitely doesn't say anything about new characters. Still, pretty hype.

And Smog Frog, I also believe Luigi is not a top 5 character. I think he's top 10, but at the moment his results and theory (and MU spread) don't put him in the same league as the other contenders for top 5.
 
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