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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Djent

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Ghostbone Ghostbone Not before factoring in how he does vs. the rest of the cast, which is well, but the other 3 arguably all do better. So I don't think he's the best even though I unashamedly believe he's top tier now.

Amadeus9 Amadeus9 That's funny, because MK is probably one of Pika's worst MUs. I can understand why you'd think that, and I'd also add that his stellar disadvantage is less of an asset against a character that can just death combo you at certain %s. BUT I do think he's better than Rosa/Sonic, and possibly Mario as well. The first two already suffered vs. ZSS (though it was at least winnable in Sonic's case), now I think Rosa is solidly -2 and Sonic is at the harder end of -1. And since she's so ridiculous, it's hard for me to rank them over a character who previously and probably still beats her, especially when I don't think they perform better vs. Sheik. Mario can definitely handle Sheik and probably ZSS as well, but I'm not sure about Ryu yet (Ally struggled vs. Mr-R and got bodied by 9B, whereas Anti made Trela look easy). It kind of hinges on how consistent Mario players can get kill confirms so as to keep up with Ryu in the killing department. A Mario that fishes for usmash will definitely lose to Ryu in the long run.
 

|RK|

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Where is this Kirby being viable topic coming from?

I'm fairly positive that most *good* Kirby mains have put their input in this thread already and said he is not viable: I loosely remember reading that he needs characters to make up for his bad matchups, all of which are top tiers that are commonly used. Kirby may have certain advantages with his crouch against Sheik, Fox or ZSS, but that doesn't mean these MUs are suddenly in his favor. I personally don't know MikeKirby, but I imagine he must put in a lot of work labbing, practicing, etc to get the results he gets with him.

You guys are sounding like the Tweek fanboys who deluded themselves into thinking BJr. is viable. He's not. Tweek also pulled incredible results with Yoshi in Brawl, yet that character was still bad in that game; Kage pulls good results with Ganon in Melee and beats some talented spacies, Sheiks and Marths, but by no means does that mean Ganon is suddenly viable in that game either.
I'm not good and I know he ain't viable. On the other hand, the best Kirby mains seem to say not much has changed. So I'm not about to drop Kirby to bad/terrible. Probably just meh, need a secondary.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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So are you people saying Kirby is semi-viable? As in a secondary would really help him?
I agree using home alone is going to be quite difficult, but he's not unviable.
 

TheJolteon

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Don't mind me still waiting for The old Marth Down air to return. In all seriousness I don't like what they did to his down air ever since the game came out. He needs a better dash attack, a less laggy everything and a combo throw for god sake. Man, whatever happened to old Marth. The one who could do 3 F-airs in 1 jump.
 

NairWizard

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I do not understand why Pika is thought to be top 5 by some. Most of top 10 all have some characteristic that is drastically overtuned, ie, Sheik's neutral, ZSS's kill setups, Sonic's ability to avoid fights altogether, Mario's great damage rackup. Pika doesn't feel overtuned... at all. Quick attack is good and everything but it's not bulletproof like needles, Luigi fireballs, ZSS nair, or Ryu landing aerials. Here's one example: MK is generally accepted by MK users to go even or better with Pika, and has no issues with QA. Why? You can repeatedly fsmash and Pika has no shot of getting in with it, what-so-ever. The extended hitbox screws him over so hard. His combos aren't even that potent compared to top tiers, they're basically less damaging mario combos... And to kill he needs a hard read. Simply put, the character just seems far too honest to me to be considered top 5. I think when people put Pikachu in top 5, they're really putting Esam in top 5. Rosa, Sonic and Mario all seem better to me than Pika...
It's subtle, but it's his disadvantaged state/ability to get out of bad situations that's overtuned. His recovery is very difficult to gimp or intercept, and he has a ton of options when he's being juggled/in the air: Quick Attack (resets to ledge or ground), literally all 5 aerials in different situations (even up-air can be used to get out due to the arc of the tail and the fact that it comes out so fast), Thunder (escapes Mario combos for instance, sometimes Sheik f-air chains), and even Skull Bash sometimes--QA is so flexible that if your opponent is trying to bait an airdodge you can get out of there with SB and then QA to the ledge to reset. Pikachu isn't immune to true combos like MK up-air chains of course, but he still has the best disadvantaged state in the game relatively speaking, with the easiest time recovering and landing. Sheik would be better or on par if her natural physics weren't so vulnerable to true combos, because Bouncing Fish is pretty strong.

Something else super subtle that you may not have noticed, but Pikachu has the best defensive options in the game too. His roll, spotdodge, and airdodge are tied with Toon Link's and Fox's for best (where "best" means quickest-to-end/earliest FAF) of each category, with only Mewtwo having a better airdodge.

His neutral is amazing too, but before 1.1.1 you had to rely on mixups to win because there was nothing in his kit that just flat out won the majority of interactions like Sheik f-air. Now that f-air and d-air are more dominant options (and f-smash and QA buffs are not to be slept on either), mixups aren't as important. You can just safely f-air and d-air (and f-smash and QA) in most situations, i.e. press buttons. The fact that he's so tiny in height helps because if you're just pressing buttons you'll often hit the opponent while the opponent's attack whiffs.

As for getting KOs, idk about hard read. Pikachu just needs to frame trap into an f-smash or up-smash, or b-reverse a Thunder, or use the cloud spike (hard to get on some characters but much easier on others)... f-air can confirm into up-smash on a crossup or you can JC up-smash if something hits your shield, and his up-smash is pretty strong. He has KO options. KOing is definitely his biggest weakness, though, or rather just the lack of a grounded KO confirm (Ryu's up-tilt, ZSS grab, etc.), and it's the reason that Mario and Ness have been hard matchups for him in the past.

Not sure about top 5 or anything, but he does sport good matchups against the good characters in the game. Ryu and ZSS most notably. Despite Dabuz's victory over ESAM, Rosalina and Pikachu mains have agreed that he wins vs. Rosalina pretty solidly too. Sonic is contentious, but usually people don't put it past even, and often in Pikachu's favor.

Mario, Ness, Fox, and Luigi used to be hard, but 3 of those 4 are no longer hard with the d-air/f-air/QA buffs. Fox and Luigi are actually pretty favorable now in my recent experience, maybe Ness as well.

MK is one of Pikachu's hardest matchups, if not his hardest (I'd still say Mario but one of the two) and it's still pretty close to even if not even.

Some people were saying this a while ago. NairWizard NairWizard was one of them who has since changed his mind. I frankly don't know enough about Greninja to make the call, and with high-level frog and rodent talent being practically anticorrelated at the regional level, it's not like I can fall back on tournament results either.

Hydro Pump is annoying vs. Quick Attack and Greninja has a ton of disjoints + mobility (deadly combination for Pikachu), but Greninja has a hard time dealing with pressure (for instance he can't really get out of up-tilt chains that easily) and it is totally possible to gimp him if you have enough Greninja experience and know the Hydro Pump timing/common angles, so it's probably even.
 

RIP_Lucas

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Sorry, but why does everyone insist Pikachu is top 4? Besides Esam, none of the Pikachu mains have done that much to deserve getting him in the upper echelon of characters. Meanwhile we had multiple Rosas and Marios in Big House Top 8, and people still insist they're below Pika and the likes
 

wedl!!

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Because people think Quick Attack is infallible.

Also some dumb thing that "his combos are better than Sheik's" that used to go around.
 

Ghostbone

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Ghostbone Ghostbone Not before factoring in how he does vs. the rest of the cast, which is well, but the other 3 arguably all do better. So I don't think he's the best even though I unashamedly believe he's top tier now.
If Pikachu is good enough to go even/beat everyone in top 3 I don't see why he wouldn't be able to function the same against the rest of the cast.
Plus the most important matchups are the matchups against the other best characters. Your thinking is inconsistent, if you believe Pikachu has the matchups you claim you should also think he's the best characters as that matchup spread would only belong to the best character. At worst he should be 2nd or something if you think Pika has a weirdly hard time with other characters despite beating the best characters.
 

RIP_Lucas

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I'm not saying Pikachu isnt really good, but to be up there with Shiek, personally I think more than 1 good user and some theororetical match up spreads is necessary
 

TheJolteon

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Really for every character (besides mewtwo, dr.mario etc) There is that 1 good player that beats all the others so I don't understand why Pikachu shouldnt be top 5
 

Ghostbone

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I mean it's been explained, Pikachu's results are worse than the likes of Mario, Rosalina, Diddy or Sonic (and obviously Sheik/ZSS), and while Ryu hasn't been proven yet in tournaments (haven't been any) there's consensus between top players he's ridiculously good now too.
You can only have 5 characters in top 5.
 
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Amadeus9

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Really for every character (besides mewtwo, dr.mario etc) There is that 1 good player that beats all the others so I don't understand why Pikachu shouldnt be top 5
That's not true. You don't see Pika tearing up Regionals/Majors/Nationals like you do other top 10 fighters. It's literally just esam with top level Pika play.
 

Trifroze

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Pikachu's damage output after his low percent combos isn't particularly good, he still lacks both range and safety and his kill potential is below average, having to rely on reads and edgeguards to close off stocks. Such requirement for hard commitment to get anything started doesn't go well with how light Pikachu is, and we should be able to see with clarity that he isn't a top 5 character for these reasons. Results aren't necessary to prove this point but they certainly agree so far.

I'm not sure if Pikachu is a tough matchup for ZSS or just awkward by being so difficult to hit with ZSS' high and linear aerial hitboxes that are only out for 2 frames (except uair). It may be a case where it first seems hard to deal with but once the ZSS player crosses that certain level and becomes near flawless with their spacing Pikachu can't get away with half the stuff he otherwise does. There's nothing crucial Pikachu outright invalidates about ZSS' moveset after all.

Is Pikachu theorized to have a good matchup vs Ryu because of multi-hits and edgeguard capability? I have no doubt Ryu has trouble recovering low/mid against Pikachu (or anyone with decent edgeguard capability), but outside of those particular offstage situations I don't think Pikachu's multi-hit moves give Ryu any real trouble. He should be able to contest Pikachu's aerial game with his own aerials with literally 3:1 damage advantage instead of even going for FA upon landing, he has plenty of aerials to wall out QA, and Pikachu is a fairly commitment heavy character that Ryu can punish hard with TSRK or setups into it.

I have no doubt Pikachu is a good character but to say he's one of the best ignores the most fundamental quality in this game that everything ultimately comes down to, risk vs reward ratio. Pikachu has good mobility and a lot of neat tools but once you look past that he has to work harder and take more risks than top characters to get the same outcome, and while he has no trouble recovering or even landing he can't make many mistakes either due to his low weight.
 
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FullMoon

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As far as Greninja goes he really is only held back by a terrible Sheik MU. Otherwise he was a pretty solid MU spread I'd say. Other than Sheik, the only MUs I think he loses are Fox and Sonic (though having safer options against Fox might make it easier for us, haven't really gotten to experience much myself).

:4zss: and :4ryu: are a bit on the "I don't know" side though, I could see Greninja going even or losing to them, but I find it unlikely that he has a winning MU against either of them.

Since :4luigi: got nerfed Greninja kinda lost a "niche" he had in having a winning MU against him.

Otherwise Greninja has even MUs across the board with the high/top tiers, maybe winning against some (:4falcon::4metaknight::4peach::4villagerf:? I dunno) but if he does it's probably a slight advantage and not much else

As far as viability goes he's not solo viable while Sheik is around and I guess at the end of the day that's what matters.
 

Djent

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If Pikachu is good enough to go even/beat everyone in top 3 I don't see why he wouldn't be able to function the same against the rest of the cast.
Inui Logic: Character Edition
Plus the most important matchups are the matchups against the other best characters. Your thinking is inconsistent, if you believe Pikachu has the matchups you claim you should also think he's the best characters as that matchup spread would only belong to the best character. At worst he should be 2nd or something if you think Pika has a weirdly hard time with other characters despite beating the best characters.
Your first sentence is true. However, the smaller the gap between the highest tier and the others, the more the lower-tier MUs start mattering as well. And the characters in the few tiers beneath top are viable enough that I don't think you can ignore them. I wouldn't even weight those MUs much less heavily than the MUs within top tier anymore, since the number of characters capable of going far at the national level has arguably increased with each patch.

I can't see Sheik, ZSS, or Ryu really losing to Mario or MK (and I agree w/ SolidSense that those are probably bad MUs). He might do well vs. Rosalina (I'm actually less confident about this one), but ZSS devours her and Sheik is still like +1 on her despite not being too dominant. Meanwhile, does anyone else in top tier have to worry about characters like...Ike? Pika does (it's not clear what the ratio is, but it is not free); I'm pretty sure Sheik/ZSS are solidly advantaged there and I have to imagine Ryu is too. There's just noticeably more that can potentially go wrong in a Pikachu's bracket, such that winning vs. ZSS and Ryu doesn't automatically make him #2.
 
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Illuminose

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If we want to talk overtuned, you can definitely makes a case for Pikachu's off-stage game. The first thing is that you can't gimp Pikachu. He can maneuver around and mix up his recovery so much, get back from anywhere, stall/cover his recovery with thunder, that you are not gimping him unless he makes a tech error. I can't think of a single other character in the game that meets the description where you can't even mess with their recovery. But more than that, Pikachu's edgeguarding is the best in the game. Bar none. Thunder walls/two frame thunder shenanigans, fast fall bair, lingering nair, really good lingering hitboxes on aerials to catch the two frame in general...and that's just the highlights.

Pikachu also has this unique ability to zoom out of disadvantaged state into any location on the stage. He can turn disadvantaged state into an instant neutral reset or even offense. His range isn't great, but his aerials are safe on shield (1.1.1), his projectile is pretty good, and then there's Quick Attack. It's not impossible to deal with Quick Attack, but it's still a powerful offensive tool that can be mixed in to really make Pikachu slippery and get in easily. nair out-of-shield gives him the ability to deal with shield pressure effectively.

There's other parts of Pikachu that are just good. His combo game is so good, and he has a lot of great combo starters off his throws, up tilt, and aerials. Pikachu can juggle you with up tilts, up airs, and convert into devastating combos. His weak point is kill setups, but that's overrated. I think NairWizard NairWizard covered everything except the throw -> thunder DI trap/mixup, in which Pikachu can create a toss-up DI situation that can result in a kill. He has really good positioning throws to create edgeguard situations, which Pikachu is the master of.
 
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Drarky

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I'm somewhat curious about something though.

What are Ryu's worse MUs? And if he becomes more and more popular, would that affect the viability of those characters?

I remember EL saying that Mega Man was the worst MU he had (This was before the patch, mind you), and that raised a little bit of my curiosity about the viablity of the Blue Bomber. Although it's pretty easy to see that Mega Man won't be becoming a massively popular character because of his moveset and the fact that tye considered best character in the game is probably his worst MU. But the point still stands.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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Mega man being a counter pick against ryu will probably not surface until the very late life of smash 4; he has no bearings on ryu right now and he can't really since he has no rep anywhere besides scatt and a japanese mega man (forgot the name).
Off topic, I would like to say that having secondaries is the best thing ever. I can try to develop Dr. Mario while having a back-up Rob and sheik to clean house? Sweet.
Edit: I was super random lol
 
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Dabuz

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Dropping in to lay some pikachu thoughts. He only SLIGHTLY beats Rosa (Been telling people this for like a month now, though post-patch that MIGHT change...depends entirely on whether fair and quick attack become safe on block vs. Rosa)

Pikachu is overrated as heck, he is always forced to take some degree on risk when fighting because of having like no range on his attacks, quick attack is also not as free as you guys make it out to be when getting on stage (though getting to the ledge is basically guaranteed), he struggles a bit to get off the ledge (unless QA is well, unpunishable on block now). In general his neutral is pretty gimmicky because you beat it by waiting for him to commit at a distance and cornering him if he doesn't.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.

Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.

THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.

Characters that do well vs Ryu.

Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.

Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
 
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Vipermoon

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So why exactly does Ryu lose to Mega Man?
 

Ghostbone

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I can't see Sheik, ZSS, or Ryu really losing to Mario or MK (and I agree w/ SolidSense that those are probably bad MUs). He might do well vs. Rosalina (I'm actually less confident about this one), but ZSS devours her and Sheik is still like +1 on her despite not being too dominant. Meanwhile, does anyone else in top tier have to worry about characters like...Ike? Pika does (it's not clear what the ratio is, but it is not free); I'm pretty sure Sheik/ZSS are solidly advantaged there and I have to imagine Ryu is too. There's just noticeably more that can potentially go wrong in a Pikachu's bracket, such that winning vs. ZSS and Ryu doesn't automatically make him #2.
Explain to me why Pikachu particularly struggles with Mario and MK while winning vs ZSS and Ryu/going even with Sheik.

Is it just "lol short" and "lol multi-hits" (in regards to pikachu beating ZSS and ryu).
This game isn't so balanced that every character excels in particular areas, top tiers just excel more at mostly everything than characters below them. If Pikachu is very safe/elusive then Pikachu beats MK, if Pikachu can't play safe then pikachu loses to Ryu as well because Ryu trading is always in his favour and his punishes are ridiculous (same with ZSS).
Why does Pikachu have to worry about Ike? If Pikachu is prone to getting walled out then pikachu's going to get walled out by Sheik or ZSS as well.

Problematic attributes that apply to matchups vs lower tier characters are still going to apply and get abused by top tiers. I don't see how it's possible that Pikachu magically has amazing matchups vs the top tiers that would basically only belong to the best character but bad matchups vs characters worse than them. Pikachu's gameplan isn't as simplistic as Luigi's that any character who can avoid getting grabbed wins, and the rest of the character hardly matters. If Pikachu has the options to deal with the best characters Pikachu should have the options to deal with worse characters.
 

Radical Larry

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The further I play Link, the further I know that he doesn't need to really rely on grab setups nor projectile setups, but instead, needs more physical contact than projectile contact. Grabbing is only a necessity if the opponent's in shield or you block their attack within range.

N-Air is just...so good. It comes out fast, has pretty much non-existent endlag, deals 11% damage in a clean, early kick, has good knockback on all variations of his attack. Fun fact about the late hits and the back hit; they set up to ALL of his grounded attacks due to their low knockback even at higher damages, so N-Air can essentially be a kill setup to confirm, because it's so low risk, high reward if it happens. N-Air also allows Link to set up for some amazing shield pressure to D-Tilt or even end up grabbing the opponent if spaced well. N-Air is one of the best edge-guarding tools in the game due to its hitbox length, and it's that one attack that just loves setups into D-Smash and read setups to Dash Attack.

His F-Smash is also absurdly powerful, especially with Rage. Link's uncharged F-Smash can send lighter opponents to KO at 20% damage if both hits connect (this also applies to Samus, strangely enough). People say it's bad because the second hit has high endlag, which I can agree with, but that's why you train yourself to hit with the first hit if the opponent shields. However, with the aforementioned N-Air shield pressure setups, this attack will serve you well if you N-Air, D-Tilt and then use F-Smash in good succession; it will likely pop the shield because all 3 attacks would deal a combined total of 50% damage if N-Air is fresh and clean as a hit, and no attack has staled. Thanks to the shield nerf, Link's probably able to pop shields easily if you do it.

I find myself using F-Air very often, and it's justified too, since you can perform it from a bomb setup, or a good getup technique from backing away from the ledge and jumping back to it. It has the range and beats out all forms of attacks that try getting Link away, except Little Mac's D-Smash, F-Smash and U-Smash, and Mega's projectile game. But F-Air is a relatively safe move with safe landing lag and great damage output.

Link's B-Air, if RAR'd, is good for setups into itself and when Link lands, he can easily perform any follow up since the attack deals small knockback, enough for Link to actually find spacing to hit with F-Tilt and Dash Attack. B-Air is known to be Link's weakest multi-hitting attack, but it combos into itself so fluidly that it can rack up damage quickly on opponents, especially the bulky heavyweights like D3 and DK.

I can go on and on about Link and I can explain how good he can really be, maybe even talk about his MUs a little. But why should I talk about MUs of Link when I can try to at least show them? Link is a very underrepresented character in tournaments for no reason at all, and Link needs to have spotlight in tournaments for people to see that he's relatively good, probably a candidate for top 20. I know there are bad things about him, but I can show that there are good things about him too if someone gets serious with Link and knows what they're doing. (There's a thing called paradigm shift...)

So why exactly does Ryu lose to Mega Man?
Lemons.
 

FullMoon

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Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.

Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.

THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.

Characters that do well vs Ryu.

Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.

Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
Lucas? Could you elaborate on that please?
 

Amadeus9

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Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.

Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.

THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.

Characters that do well vs Ryu.

Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.

Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
How do you define "well" exactly?

Dropping in to lay some pikachu thoughts. He only SLIGHTLY beats Rosa (Been telling people this for like a month now, though post-patch that MIGHT change...depends entirely on whether fair and quick attack become safe on block vs. Rosa)

Pikachu is overrated as heck, he is always forced to take some degree on risk when fighting because of having like no range on his attacks, quick attack is also not as free as you guys make it out to be when getting on stage (though getting to the ledge is basically guaranteed), he struggles a bit to get off the ledge (unless QA is well, unpunishable on block now). In general his neutral is pretty gimmicky because you beat it by waiting for him to commit at a distance and cornering him if he doesn't.
:denzel:

Inb4 the same arguments are used to defend Pika top 5 placing a week from now
 

Djent

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Explain to me why Pikachu particularly struggles with Mario and MK while winning vs ZSS and Ryu/going even with Sheik.

Is it just "lol short" and "lol multi-hits" (in regards to pikachu beating ZSS and ryu).
No (but these things help, obviously).
This game isn't so balanced that every character excels in particular areas, top tiers just excel more at mostly everything than characters below them. If Pikachu is very safe/elusive then Pikachu beats MK, if Pikachu can't play safe then pikachu loses to Ryu as well because Ryu trading is always in his favour and his punishes are ridiculous (same with ZSS).
Why does Pikachu have to worry about Ike? If Pikachu is prone to getting walled out then pikachu's going to get walled out by Sheik or ZSS as well.
See, now this is funny. Because if determining MUs is as simple as looking at problematic extreme attributes, then why wouldn't "lol short" and "lol multi-hits" be acceptable answers to your first question?

I honestly can't be arsed to do a write-up right now, so y'all can think what you want.
 
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Browny

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There's just noticeably more that can potentially go wrong in a Pikachu's bracket
Yeah like getting sent to losers regularly vs the top tiers because pikachu isnt winning tournaments anywhere except florida.

These are the kinds of problems that dont affect the top tier characters anywhere near as much as they do high tier characters.
 
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Smog Frog

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some theories i have on :4lucas:v:4ryu:

-pk fire is multihit, thus knocking him out of FA
-he's super anti projectile. hadokens dont mean **** to him, so its hard to do the hadoken trap stuff. absorption, zair going through hadokens, pkf eating hadokens, reflecting hadokens with the stick...you get the idea.
-he's just generally good at keeping him out.

i could very well be missing why :4ryu: loses but those all seem very detrimental to him.
 

Vipermoon

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Lemons aren't really an answer. You can't win with just lemons and they aren't broken enough to shut characters down (they aren't broken at all).
 
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Radical Larry

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Ryu has to become "meta" before MM's good match vs him has relevance.

Lets say Ryu sees an explosion of growth and high level mains. He starts beating on Sheik and ZSS in high stakes tournies. Utilt locks and kill confirms out the booty. Now Ryu becomes "THAT" guy to beat.

THEN Megaman becomes relevant because he has a good match vs the King.

Characters that do well vs Ryu.

Diddy, Pac-man, Megaman, Lucas, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike, Villager, Olimar and Yoshi. This is all imo. Sonic does not beat Ryu imo. Ryu has answers to all of Sonic's stuff, the key is choosing the right option. Pika def doesnt beat Ryu. No way. Ryu can shut down every button Pika has with light ftilt, hard jab and fair. QA loses to SH nair as well.

Keep in mind I dont think Ryu has any match worse then 4/6. The raw killing power and threat of his damage keeps his ratios from spiraling out of control.
Maining Ryu myself, I know that Link is either an even MU or a win for Link. All the aforementioned characters here have either disjoints or projectiles with them, and Link has both, as well as good frame data and ways to shut down Ryu's recovery. Link's N-Air can completely defeat Hadoukens, his F-Air can gimp Ryu if Ryu uses Focus Attack or Tatsumaki, Link's D-Air works surprisingly well to meteor Ryu if Ryu uses Tatsumaki or FADCs out of Focus Attack.

Link's also got the aforementioned projectiles, as well as relatively great projectile games that'd shut Ryu's attacks down. Ryu's also a short jumper, so it's no problem for Link to U-Air, U-Tilt or U-Smash juggle Ryu because of this, but Ryu can possibly answer with his aerials. However, Link is a character with a large disjoint in his hitboxes, and Ryu's hurtboxes and hitboxes are together, so using Ryu's attacks are not safe against Link if Ryu's not close enough.

Now on Ryu's side, Link is also susceptible to being combo'd, but Link himself can get out of combos more easily than Ryu. Ryu needs to be more reliant on trying to get the gap closed on Link, something necessary for him to defeat Link. Using F-Air > D-Air on Link's shield to pressure him is a good idea, as long as Link doesn't grab Ryu. It's always best to FADC away from Link if you're directly above him, because he might use U-Air, Tilt or Smash, and that can heavily beat Ryu. If not FADC, try Tatsumaki to get the space, though be careful as Link might be able to close in the space too.

Ryu's other problem to be addressed is his lack of good air inertia, since Ryu's known for his horrible air inertia. It's best not to try edge-guarding Link away from the edge of the stage, since Ryu will probably die if he goes too far from the edge of the stage (again, Ryu's air inertia is terrible). Time your setups and aerials wisely with Ryu.

For grounded attacks, it goes to Link once more because none of Ryu's tilts, except F-Tilt, would be able to have such incredible range like Link's. They have the speed, but not the reach. Link's have moderate speed and reach, so Link definitely beats Ryu's tilts unless Ryu can close the gap. Using Tatsumaki on the ground is a death sentence if Link blocks it. You might as well deserve getting KO'd by him if he blocks you at moderate damages, because that F-Smash is a hard hitter. If not F-Smash, Dash Attack into a read D-Air will do the trick.

In terms of Smashes, Ryu has some damaging smashes, but Link's got knockback AND damage to his smash attacks; Link's damage and KB output are overall better than Ryu's in uncharged smashes. However, Ryu has the better frame data with his smashes, but again, he needs to close in the gap because of Link's disjoints.

So Link is definitely a problematic character that would have to force Ryu to come close to try getting him, right? Well, Link is also good at footsies, so that's a challenge against Ryu. Link's D-Air meteor is perfect on Ryu if Ryu uses Tatsumaki to recover (the upper part of Ryu is left wide-as-hell open and is completely vulnerable when the attack ends with its moderately high endlag).

So I believe Link could go 50:50 if Ryu can just close the gap, but if Link has a good player, it's definitely going to be a 40:60 in Link's favor.

Lemons aren't really an answer. You can't win with just lemons and they aren't broken enough to shut characters down (they aren't broken at all).
It was a joke; in all seriousness, though, Lemons can be good for stopping a Ryu who's trying to close in the gap against MM. But in practical terms, MM shouldn't use them unless he wants to stop Ryu from rushing in, especially in the air.
 

Browny

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I feel sorry for you Radical Larry coz despite all that, you're gonna get the 'lol ryu is top tier link is bad, thats why ryu wins this matchup' treatment on this forum.

Keeping Ryu the hell away from you is how you beat him so what you say makes sense
 
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Nobie

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Jump and shoot/lemons isn't literally what Mega Man does, but it sums up his general strategy well: use high mobility specs (including some of the best aerial weaving in the game) and a slew of quick and/or multi-hit projectiles to just constantly space your opponent out.

Mega Man loves to fight three things: poor air speed, which he can just pellet; poor aerial maneuverability, which he can just straight up outperform; and characters that rely too heavily on weak projectiles to close distances. Luigi fulfills all three, there are smatterings of Ryu's style in two (bad aerial maneuvering and reliance on Hadouken).

What really potentially makes Mega Man effective against Ryu though is that he all but negates Focus Attack while also actively playing out of range of Shoryuken with little difficulty. Rapid-fire pellets could probably break FA by accident, while Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, Up Smash, Up Air, Dash Attack, and more make FA kind of trivial.
 

RonNewcomb

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Agreed on :4link: vs :4ryu:: Link gets a lot of mileage just out of jab, zair, and projectiles. Uair ain't bad though Focus says w/e. Link's biggest problem is aerial Focus approaches; I find it's better to give ground or run/roll forward & switch positions that challenge it.

Ryu does have some disjoint on his attacks though. Not that Link cares, but some chars do.

Oh and regarding a post pages back asking about :4link: vs :4olimar:: RTSD. Seriously, rush that spaceman down, cause in the time it takes Link to pull bomb, bow, or boomerang, Olly will stick a pikmin to your face and pull two more. Nair, Fair, Bair are Link's friends. When Olly's knocked off-stage you can then pelt him with projectiles if you can't dair-spike him. And never stop to knock off the pikmin stuck to you. Olly will use the time to pluck more and Link's too slow to dodge; just keep pressuring him with Link's aerials and the pikmin will fall off incidentally. Encourage Olly to recover high via tossing a boomerang under him so the Uair can do some work.
 

Rizen

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N-Air is just...so good. It comes out fast, has pretty much non-existent endlag, deals 11% damage in a clean, early kick, has good knockback on all variations of his attack. Fun fact about the late hits and the back hit; they set up to ALL of his grounded attacks due to their low knockback even at higher damages, so N-Air can essentially be a kill setup to confirm, because it's so low risk, high reward if it happens. N-Air also allows Link to set up for some amazing shield pressure to D-Tilt or even end up grabbing the opponent if spaced well. N-Air is one of the best edge-guarding tools in the game due to its hitbox length, and it's that one attack that just loves setups into D-Smash and read setups to Dash Attack.

His F-Smash is also absurdly powerful, especially with Rage. Link's uncharged F-Smash can send lighter opponents to KO at 20% damage if both hits connect (this also applies to Samus, strangely enough). People say it's bad because the second hit has high endlag, which I can agree with, but that's why you train yourself to hit with the first hit if the opponent shields. However, with the aforementioned N-Air shield pressure setups, this attack will serve you well if you N-Air, D-Tilt and then use F-Smash in good succession; it will likely pop the shield because all 3 attacks would deal a combined total of 50% damage if N-Air is fresh and clean as a hit, and no attack has staled. Thanks to the shield nerf, Link's probably able to pop shields easily if you do it.

I find myself using F-Air very often, and it's justified too, since you can perform it from a bomb setup, or a good getup technique from backing away from the ledge and jumping back to it. It has the range and beats out all forms of attacks that try getting Link away, except Little Mac's D-Smash, F-Smash and U-Smash, and Mega's projectile game. But F-Air is a relatively safe move with safe landing lag and great damage output.

Link's B-Air, if RAR'd, is good for setups into itself and when Link lands, he can easily perform any follow up since the attack deals small knockback, enough for Link to actually find spacing to hit with F-Tilt and Dash Attack. B-Air is known to be Link's weakest multi-hitting attack, but it combos into itself so fluidly that it can rack up damage quickly on opponents, especially the bulky heavyweights like D3 and DK.

I can go on and on about Link and I can explain how good he can really be, maybe even talk about his MUs a little. But why should I talk about MUs of Link when I can try to at least show them? Link is a very underrepresented character in tournaments for no reason at all, and Link needs to have spotlight in tournaments for people to see that he's relatively good, probably a candidate for top 20. I know there are bad things about him, but I can show that there are good things about him too if someone gets serious with Link and knows what they're doing. (There's a thing called paradigm shift...)
I want to address some things:
Nair is not a kill setup because at kill %s the opponent gets launched too far away even with the weak hit. It is nice for intercepting but lacks the launch power to finish an opponent. They usually can still recover if they have a half decent recovery. I agree Nair is a good move, disjoint, lots of active frames and low landing lag. But it does start frame 7, which is pretty slow compared to things like Pac Man's Nair or Sheik's everything.

The Nair>Dtilt>Fsmash chain is fairly easy to escape from. Link did get a nice safety boost in the last patch but I think you're overestimating Link's shield pressure.

Fair is good but you're overrating it as a ledge hop option. It starts frame 14 and most Tilts can hit Link on reaction leaving him offstage without a jump. I do agree that Fair is a good spacing tool with low landing lag.

What you said about Bair is not true. It can combo into its self in the air but not after landing. You're talking about an attack with 10 frames landing lag chaining into a frame 15 Ftilt or frame 20 dash attack- a good opponent should not let this happen. You might be able to Bair>land>reverse jab/Utilt.

At best Link could be a mid tier but I see him at the high end of underwhelming. Top 20 would put him with characters like DK, Ryu, Villager, etc and he isn't as good as them. The highest level Link gets results in is regional.
 

KenMeister

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I want to address some things:
Nair is not a kill setup because at kill %s the opponent gets launched too far away even with the weak hit. It is nice for intercepting but lacks the launch power to finish an opponent. They usually can still recover if they have a half decent recovery. I agree Nair is a good move, disjoint, lots of active frames and low landing lag. But it does start frame 7, which is pretty slow compared to things like Pac Man's Nair or Sheik's everything.

The Nair>Dtilt>Fsmash chain is fairly easy to escape from. Link did get a nice safety boost in the last patch but I think you're overestimating Link's shield pressure.

Fair is good but you're overrating it as a ledge hop option. It starts frame 14 and most Tilts can hit Link on reaction leaving him offstage without a jump. I do agree that Fair is a good spacing tool with low landing lag.

What you said about Bair is not true. It can combo into its self in the air but not after landing. You're talking about an attack with 10 frames landing lag chaining into a frame 15 Ftilt or frame 20 dash attack- a good opponent should not let this happen. You might be able to Bair>land>reverse jab/Utilt.

At best Link could be a mid tier but I see him at the high end of underwhelming. Top 20 would put him with characters like DK, Ryu, Villager, etc and he isn't as good as them. The highest level Link gets results in is regional.
Link having good results in regionals is more than what you can say for a huge majority of the cast people deem mid tier otherwise to be honest. (*cough* Shulk *cough*)
 

Radical Larry

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Link having good results in regionals is more than what you can say for a huge majority of the cast people deem mid tier otherwise to be honest. (*cough* Shulk *cough*)
Didn't a Link player make 34th in a major/national? That's saying something compared to the likes of Shulk.
Anyways, I got to say that Link is still being quite underestimated, but nonetheless, there has to be that one player that will show Link can be pretty great as a character.

Let me be honest though, who wouldn't want a U-Air that can hit opponents even after they air dodge? Link benefits from punishing air dodges with U-Air, which often sends the opponent to a KO. Link's U-Air is arguably one of the better ones due to how disjointed it is and how long it stays out.
 

TurboLink

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Didn't a Link player make 34th in a major/national? That's saying something compared to the likes of Shulk.
Anyways, I got to say that Link is still being quite underestimated, but nonetheless, there has to be that one player that will show Link can be pretty great as a character.

Let me be honest though, who wouldn't want a U-Air that can hit opponents even after they air dodge? Link benefits from punishing air dodges with U-Air, which often sends the opponent to a KO. Link's U-Air is arguably one of the better ones due to how disjointed it is and how long it stays out.
Too bad it weakens over time.
 

Gunla

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As far as Greninja goes he really is only held back by a terrible Sheik MU. Otherwise he was a pretty solid MU spread I'd say. Other than Sheik, the only MUs I think he loses are Fox and Sonic (though having safer options against Fox might make it easier for us, haven't really gotten to experience much myself).

:4zss: and :4ryu: are a bit on the "I don't know" side though, I could see Greninja going even or losing to them, but I find it unlikely that he has a winning MU against either of them.

Since :4luigi: got nerfed Greninja kinda lost a "niche" he had in having a winning MU against him.

Otherwise Greninja has even MUs across the board with the high/top tiers, maybe winning against some (:4falcon::4metaknight::4peach::4villagerf:? I dunno) but if he does it's probably a slight advantage and not much else

As far as viability goes he's not solo viable while Sheik is around and I guess at the end of the day that's what matters.
Reiterating, with my take on it.

Greninja's main flaw primarily comes from his bad Sheik MU (something that many characters just have) and his shield options. Fox, Sonic are MUs that are probably in that 45:55/-1 range, perhaps including Pikachu.

With the new changes to ZSS, I'm not sure what the MU is at this point, but seeing as how Greninja's shield isn't used much as is, I don't see it changing. Ryu feels dead even as well.

Luigi is still a good character, and while he loses to a few more now, I still think it's a good niche Gren has.

Other than that, Greninja's MU spread is mostly comprised of 50:50s and +1s, with the only standout MUs being Jigglypuff as our best, and a few +2s from certain characters (again, Luigi is here). Majority of the cast goes about even with him, winning against a few here and there, but it's a good looking spread.

With the Sheik MU factored in, Greninja is not likely solo viable; however, beyond that, he's a very solid character. Wins or goes even with a majority of the cast and has only a handful of iffy MUs.
 
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