Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

I love how Villager's n-air and turnips are a sex kick despite being neither sexual nor a kick

seriously how did that term come to refer to anymove with a lingering hitbox :/

Because you extend an appendage, attempt to ram into the opponent with it, it's awkward when you miss, and even more awkward when you both try at the same time.

 

[Vipermoon]

I love how Villager's n-air and turnips are a sex kick despite being neither sexual nor a kick

seriously how did that term come to refer to anymove with a lingering hitbox :/

I still stand by my view that villager's n-air is the god move

Villager has no sex kick. A sex kick is well...look it up http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sex_kick. Sex kicks were almost the only Nairs in 64, slightly less but still very common in Melee. Brawl then Smash 4 got rid more of them. Everytime some character lost a sex kick it was considered a nerf because the Nairs they got instead were not as good (or even really bad).

 

[Antonykun]

Villager has no sex kick. A sex kick is well...look it up http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sex_kick. Sex kicks were almost the only Nairs in 64, slightly less but still very common in Melee. Brawl then Smash 4 got rid more of them. Everytime some character lost a sex kick it was considered a nerf because the Nairs they got instead were not as good (or even really bad).

tfw Villager's n-air and turnips are listed there when she is clearly not kicking

OOS Up-smash should be really incorporated into villager's game

 

[Nobie]

Who is crazy enough to actually believe that Smash 4 is worse off in terms of balance compared to Melee?

One game has a Fox who is one of the fastest characters, with one of the fastest and most powerful attacks in the game, AND an up smash that is one of the strongest in the game (or THE strongest under the right circumstances).

Like think about that. Sheik has kill setups, and fair is perhaps way too good. Fox in Melee out-sped AND out-powered AND out-comboed most of the cast, which is absurd to even think about.

 

[Pazzo.]

To think, tomorrow at this time we'll be cracking our heads trying to figure out where everyone stands... Oh wait, that's everyday.

I mean, we'll have some new data to experiment with. My money goes to Sheik nerfs and more Marth/Lucina buffs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just an FYI, since this is relevant right now: in multiple interviews, Sakurai has stated that balance is being done for FFA and 1v1. Online battles are taken into account, as well as feedback via the internet.

This is reflected in the general trend that perceived weak characters have been getting buffed across multiple patches and perceived strong characters have been getting nerfed.

Also, LancerStaff : Sheik has been nerfed in 3 of the last 4 balance patches. (1.0.4, 1.0.6, 1.1.0) She is getting slowly tuned down. She might still be on top, but it isn't the tip top anymore.

Additionally, you talk like what you're saying is fact. It's not. A 2013 interview explicitly states that FFA and 1v1 are both considered when balancing is done, and "The Act of Balancing," from Famitsu, vol 480, confirms that internet feedback is taken into consideration. That's also known as the competitive 1v1 crowd.

To take "FFA is considered along with everything else" and turn it into "this will never happen because it's also balanced for this thing" shows a lack of understanding on your part.

Yes, balancing is being done for both. Never said otherwise. Like I said, they didn't ruin Sheik in FFAs for 1v1 balance. They've been slowly turning her down, and yet most of us could make Shiek more balanced for 1v1s in about ten seconds then what they've done over a year.

Sakurai never said there wasn't a priority, however. The whole idea that FFAs and 1v1 are being treated as equal falls flat when you realize that there's no real winners and especially losers in FFAs... Nobody, and I mean nobody struggles in FFAs. Even if Samus did, that's just one character. There's another fifty characters all around the same level, unlike 1v1s.

Let's be honest here, Sakurai would be insane for not giving priority to the significantly more popular way to play Smash. Nobody wants to play a "broken" game, and this is simply making the most people happy.

 

[Vipermoon]

tfw Villager's n-air and turnips are listed there when she is clearly not kicking

OOS Up-smash should be really incorporated into villager's game

You're right it is. I was under the impression that specifically sticking your leg straight out for an extended period was the requirement.

 

[TurboLink]

Who is crazy enough to actually believe that Smash 4 is worse off in terms of balance compared to Melee?

One game has a Fox who is one of the fastest characters, with one of the fastest and most powerful attacks in the game, AND an up smash that is one of the strongest in the game (or THE strongest under the right circumstances).

Like think about that. Sheik has kill setups, and fair is perhaps way too good. Fox in Melee out-sped AND out-powered AND out-comboed most of the cast, which is absurd to even think about.

You forgot to mention his camping game.

 

[Rikkhan]

Because it's 2 frames, and it is worse than hard, it's essentially random. The margin of error is massive, and the variables to what could make it go wrong are plenty.

1) everyone doesn't snap the ledge at the same time, or place
2) everyone doesn't have hitboxes that reach the ledge from the stage
3) startup frames need to be considered
4) active frames need to be considered
5) enemy recovery attacks have hitboxes on them.
6) Smash 4 recoveries are ********, so the enemy can do all sorts of things to off your timing.
7) With some characters like Marth/Lucina, Ike, Ryu ect, you just wont get the chance. Link can literally kill you for trying to snap kill him, easily.


It's a VALUABLE window, but it seems to be so deliberately hard to exploit that i doubt it's ever going to be big except for the few characters that can exploit it easily. This is why top players don't even bother half the time.

You screw up and they get on the stage for free, or worse just punish you for it, because this is smash 4, and recovering players deserve special treatment.

I understand what are you saying but calling it "essentially random" it's too much, all the points listed there are solved with just knowledge and timing, my point is that this is a resource that should be considered and used wisely, also I can't believe I forgot villager, he is waay better than fox, sonic or falcon at this, and he does this naturally, the bowling ball is insane.

also for the lols:

 

[Nu~]

Is it actually confirmed that we'll get a patch tomorrow?
And if it is, what time does it start?

 

[Vipermoon]

Does anyone know exactly when the patch comes and what time zone that is?

 

[Prometheus16]

I'd just like to say: "Jeez...this is only for the characters. What happens if I threw items in the mix?"

Edit: This whole thread would probably go crazy...

 

[Planty]

Is Link's Uair and Dair not a sex kick?

 

[LancerStaff]

Is it actually confirmed that we'll get a patch tomorrow?
And what time does it start if it is going to happen?

Every content update thus far has had a balance patch to go with it, and it's about the right time. So most likely.

Does anyone know exactly when the patch comes and what time zone that is?

Maintenance ends at midnight PST and 3 in the morning for us in EST I believe.

 

[⑨ball]

Is it actually confirmed that we'll get a patch tomorrow?
And if it is, what time does it start?

DLC drop for the Mario Maker stage is the only confirmed thing, but it's highly unlikely that's all that will happen.

Speaking of which, doesn't PacMan get a new glitch to play with nearly every patch?

 

[L9999]

To think, tomorrow at this time we'll be cracking our heads trying to figure out where everyone stands... Oh wait, that's everyday.

I mean, we'll have some new data to experiment with. My money goes to Sheik nerfs and more Marth/Lucina buffs.

If Samus and Mewtwo go untouched I will be really surprised.

 

[Zannabluke]

Does anyone know exactly when the patch comes and what time zone that is?

– Europe: September 30th (7.30AM to 9AM)
– UK: September 30th (6.30AM to 8AM)
– North America (EDT): September 30th (1.30AM to 3AM)
– North America (PDT): September 29th (10.30PM) to September 30th (12AM)
– Japan: September 30th (2.30PM to 4PM)

 

[David Viran]

Does anyone know exactly when the patch comes and what time zone that is?

I heard maintenance starts at 2:30 PM japan time so like 3:30 AM eastern time.

Edit:'d

 

[Nu~]

DLC drop for the Mario Maker stage is the only confirmed thing, but it's highly unlikely that's all that will happen.

Speaking of which, doesn't PacMan get a new glitch to play with nearly every patch?

Every content update thus far has had a balance patch to go with it, and it's about the right time. So most likely.



Maintenance ends at midnight PST and 3 in the morning for us in EST I believe.

Thank you both.

And yes, glitches happen every time they touch the character. I think he may be the only character that has had something taken away in one patch and given back in the next (dropping hydrants through platforms and stages)

Yet what I really want is a grab buff

 

[Nobie]

Because you extend an appendage, attempt to ram into the opponent with it, it's awkward when you miss, and even more awkward when you both try at the same time.

The first time I saw the term sex kick being used on Smashboards was by MattDeezie...many many years ago.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks guys. Looks like I'm staying up past 3 AM.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thanks guys. Looks like I'm staying up past 3 AM.

Ugh, tell me about it... No way I'll be able to sleep when there's a patch to go over.

 

[Nu~]

That's why I'm setting that alarm for 3, checking to see what changed, and swiftly heading back to dream land

So who do you all believe will get buffed/nerfed?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Am I the only one that's plans on sleeping today?

Also, if Sakurai doesn't buff Samus, King Dedede, or Jigglypuff, I'm gonna start calling Sakurai "Mommy Sakurai"

 

[Mr. Johan]

An update, by definition, has to be a patch. Mario Maker has to be able to be played online without causing the game to crash. Whether it comes with a balance patch remains to be seen.

#LuigiNerfs #BigBucks #NoWhammy #Stop

 

[Zannabluke]

sheik and zss are most def going to take the hit this patch, everybody else remains a mystery

 

[Smog Frog]

iunno man. but if history tells us anything, its going to go like this:
gets inconsequential nerfs
gets buffed
gets obliterated
gets inconsequential nerfs
is this going to happen? probably not. but thats been the pattern recently.

also because something should happen(eg: buffs/nerfs to specific characters) doesnt mean it will. i dont anticipate any specific top tiers getting nerfs and i dont anticipate any specific bottom tiers getting buffs. i dont even know if this is gonna be a balance patch. if i had it my way, i would:
get in line with the cast, specifically his invulnerability frames. those are actually crippling.
thats actually about it. i'm satisfied with the balance of this game. the top tiers arent too overbearing and the bottom tiers arent unusable garbage.

 

[Wintermelon43]

sheik and zss are most def going to take the hit this patch, everybody else remains a mystery

Samus will almost certainly be buffed too.

 

[Prometheus16]

Nobie , were you one of the first people here?

 

[TurboLink]

Samus will almost certainly be buffed too.

Just like she was buffed last ti--Oh wait!

 

[Pazx]

Now now... Stop Fairing will you?

I have been recently testing some Rob and I find him to be rather odd character when it comes to his gameplan, but anyway what are your opinions about Rob? Is he solo viable or is it more of a Counterpick viable and is he for the 1v1 or 2v2 format?

Not solo viable in an environment where Sheiks and ZSSes flourish. Notably does well against Luigi (matchup is probably 55:45 but if there's any sort of skill discrepancy it will look super bad for the losing character, but that's probably just a Luigi thing) but I think he has random bad matchups against lower tiered characters where other characters in the 10th-20th positions typically don't. In fact, he's pretty much disadvantaged against all the top tier characters and a whole lot of the high tier ones too, Luigi is the most relevant exception (apparently Sonic is okay too).

I don't really think he's worth calling counterpick viable either, he's certainly usable but I don't think he actually has any matchups where he's certainly worth using over whatever other character you have. He is one of the characters who excels on a lot of stages though (were I a solo main I would ban BF and SV in every matchup), I sometimes pull him out when I get taken to Lylat and obviously he has Halberd cheese and is generally good on T&C/DH. He's viable with a secondary but it begs the question of why you even use him if you're going to pull your secondary out every other match.

 

[TDK]

I'm hoping for Ike/Peach buffs, personally. Such as their Up-Bs actually snapping to the ledge if you're facing the other direction.

 

[Mario766]

BH5 is running the patch we are using now.


Hurricane Ike will commence after Big House 5.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Guys, if Sakurai wanted to keep buffi Ike they would have done it last time. There's almost no chance of them doing it next patch.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Ike not reaching the ledge after UpBing backward makes balance sense. Could you imagine recovering against an invincible, large, walling hitbox that spikes you while the Ike gets away scot free?

 

[Radical Larry]

Right bloomin' 'ell, I forgot to mention this, or else it'll be good night Arlene!

Jigglypuff's N-Air might be a frame 7 or 8 N-Air, but it's rightfully so the longest-lasting N-Air hitbox alongside Link's, Kirby's and D3's. It's also perfect for edge-guards and kills.

But in the terms of the good wallaby of the patch, 'opefully Link's got a buff or two, and Ganondorf gets a buff in speed or power! So far in every patch, Ganondorf is guaranteed a KO with Flame Choke before he dies.

Also, who wants a PK Fire bein' roasted on the barby with a nerf to its hitboxes or its bloomin' speed of usage?
(Translation: Who else wants PK Fire to be less spammy and damage-y?)

 

[TurboLink]

Guys, if Sakurai wanted to keep buffi Ike they would have done it last time. There's almost no chance of them doing it next patch.

So what makes you think Samus will be buffed then?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike not reaching the ledge after UpBing backward makes balance sense. Could you imagine recovering against an invincible, large, walling hitbox that spikes you while the Ike gets away scot free?

He's not invincible though. He has super armour at the start, that's it.

They really do need to fix the stupid placement of the hitbox though, the entire back half of him has nothing. And give him a frame 3 Jab. And remove the sourspots on all of his smashes because they would still be sub-par without them. And speed up Dsmash's hits. And make QD deal more damage. And add lingering frames to Dair so you don't miss the 2 frames its active for and then awkwardly stick your sword into the opponent's skull with no damage happening.

 

[L9999]

Right bloomin' 'ell, I forgot to mention this, or else it'll be good night Arlene!

Jigglypuff's N-Air might be a frame 7 or 8 N-Air, but it's rightfully so the longest-lasting N-Air hitbox alongside Link's, Kirby's and D3's. It's also perfect for edge-guards and kills.

But in the terms of the good wallaby of the patch, 'opefully Link's got a buff or two, and Ganondorf gets a buff in speed or power! So far in every patch, Ganondorf is guaranteed a KO with Flame Choke before he dies.

Also, who wants a PK Fire bein' roasted on the barby with a nerf to its hitboxes or its bloomin' speed of usage?
(Translation: Who else wants PK Fire to be less spammy and damage-y?)

PK Fire is very slow and it can be escaped relatively easy. It's really underwhelming in neutral and that is why it is not used in big tourneys that often.

 

[Deathcarter]

iunno man. but if history tells us anything, its going to go like this:
gets inconsequential nerfs
gets inconsequential nerfs

Sonic's B-throw and Usmash nerfs as well as Sheik's v1.04 and bair nerfs were pretty significant.