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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Shaya

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TFW you find out Nairo's name is actually Nairoby.


This post is amazing, but I'm curious, but what are some of those moves and are they the main reason that there are "gatekeepers" in the meta?
Uhh, it definitely helps... I could probably go in depth about this gatekeeping affect another time.

ZSS: Nair/Zair/Bair/Uair (although I'm advocating nair usage tone down because it only has 1 static timing/usage and anyone well versed in the ZSS MU will abuse this if you're a fraud ZSS).
Sheik: Fair, Nair, Bair, ftilt
Luigi: Fair, Fireball
Ness: fair, nair, uair
Diddy: fair/bair, down tilt
Rosalina: jab/aerials

Why they help is because if you think only 1 step ahead, there's no logical option that beats most of these moves used properly (sheik fair: shielding doesn't beat it, you need to beat what they do after they fair your shield). But at 2-3 steps they're a lot more manageable. The fact they can act and cover so many singular option sets while giving strong pressure and possibly follow ups/combos overwhelms.

Pikachu: nothing,lel~
 
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wedl!!

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Speaking of characters who can theoretically go toe-to-toe with Sheik, has there been any Peach/Sheik on stream at all?
 
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Mario766

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If anyone is getting sword beams, it's link and toon link when they have 0%.
Link gets it at 0.

Ike gets it at any percent.

Why bother with Link.

On more relevant news

Ryuga would have beaten Zero in games 1 and 2 if he made 1-2 less mistakes. As Ike.


I'd love to see people put him in low tier now.
 
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FallofBrawl

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Link gets it at 0.

Ike gets it at any percent.

Why bother with Link.

On more relevant news

Ryuga would have beaten Zero in games 1 and 2 if he made 1-2 less mistakes. As Ike.


I'd love to see people put him in low tier now.
It was super disheartening to see Ryuga SD so early game one and barely clutch out game 2, Ike is definitely a high tier character, theres just always been a stigma that super heavies are not good in 1v1 format because of their poor results and tier placings in the smash history. But hopefully patches and good tourney results reverse that attitude soon.
 

HFlash

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Does anyone know when Rebirth is coming back on the air? Waiting for the final showdown (which better dam happen) between Ryuga and Zero is worse than the Goku vs. Frieza showdown wait back in the Namek season way back when.
 

Mario766

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Does anyone know when Rebirth is coming back on the air? Waiting for the final showdown (which better dam happen) between Ryuga and Zero is worse than the Goku vs. Frieza showdown wait back in the Namek season way back when.
They have to find a new venue.
 

Charoite

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It was super disheartening to see Ryuga SD so early game one and barely clutch out game 2, Ike is definitely a high tier character, theres just always been a stigma that super heavies are not good in 1v1 format because of their poor results and tier placings in the smash history. But hopefully patches and good tourney results reverse that attitude soon.
that and people still dont know how to separate heavyweights(Wario,R.O.B,C.falcon,Yoshi,Ryu,Ike) and super heavyweights (in this case DK)
 
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Mario766

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that and people still dont know how to separate heavyweights(Wario,R.O.B,C.falcon,Yoshi,Ryu,Ike) and super heavyweights (in this case DK)
Ike's 2 weight points from being a Super Heavyweight, I'd actually let that slide because it's mostly true for heavy weights as well. The only heavy-weight that gets good looks at is Falcon, who doesn't even operate like a Heavyweight and Wario for his obscene un-heavy like aerial mobility. They both don't have the Heavy-Weight feel to them so they have a better time in Smash.

Unless you're DK, then you're good at everything but you're so big and heavy it kinda counter-acts it.
 

HFlash

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They have to find a new venue.
ETA?

And as far as the weight thing is concerned, it is true that heavy weights were/are worse in previous fighting games but the fact of the matter is that unlike in other fighting games there is some advantage in getting hit in this game (rage). This mechanic inherently gives heavyweights a boost.
 

T4ylor

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that and people still dont know how to separate heavyweights(Wario,R.O.B,C.falcon,Yoshi,Ryu,Ike) and super heavyweights (in this case DK)
Ganon is actually seen as the lightest super-heavy at a weight value of 112. Ike's at 108 with 2 characters between him and Ganon.

Or do you mean a value of 110 would somehow be considered super?
 
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Charoite

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Ike's 2 weight points from being a Super Heavyweight, I'd actually let that slide because it's mostly true for heavy weights as well. The only heavy-weight that gets good looks at is Falcon, who doesn't even operate like a Heavyweight and Wario for his obscene un-heavy like aerial mobility. They both don't have the Heavy-Weight feel to them so they have a better time in Smash.

Unless you're DK, then you're good at everything but you're so big and heavy it kinda counter-acts it.
Oh dont worry as a R.O.B main(R.O.B is only 3 weight points from being a super heavyweight) i know that, but when you question people about whats a heavy character is they mostly respond DDD, bowser and DK, so in the eyes of the majority a viable Heavyweight character is more of a archetype, that how much a character weights, sorry if what i say dont make much sense.
 

FallofBrawl

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Zinoto just beat Rayquaza, and I don't see the stream pop up yet..i hope the rest will be on stream.
 

Mario766

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It finally ended albeit off-stream.

Zero takes it with Zinoto beating Ryuga in Loser Finals.

Pretty interesting tournament, V115 finishing 9th? I don't think anyone expected that.
 

Wintropy

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ETA?

And as far as the weight thing is concerned, it is true that heavy weights were/are worse in previous fighting games but the fact of the matter is that unlike in other fighting games there is some advantage in getting hit in this game (rage). This mechanic inherently gives heavyweights a boost.
Kinda why I'm fond of rage. It introduces an impetus to survive rather than just "not die".

I'd love to see people put him in low tier now.
Makes me happy to see an otherwise "bad" character improve over time.

Speaking of which, I can't help but feel that DK's still incredibly scary in the right hands. Even with disjoints, I can't compete with a good DK - the monkey fists just make it near-impossible for me to get in his face.
 

HFlash

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On the topic of underrepresented characters, forgive me if this Lucas main (who I believe his name is Red) is already well known but I never heard of him, and thought I should share. Some pretty cool and creative use of footstool setups may raise eyebrows on his competitive viability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAJwoZTzOC8
 

NachoOfCheese

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On the topic of underrepresented characters, forgive me if this Lucas main (who I believe his name is Red) is already well known but I never heard of him, and thought I should share. Some pretty cool and creative use of footstool setups may raise eyebrows on his competitive viability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAJwoZTzOC8
But that's for glory.

In relevant news, I beat v115's ZSS at rebirth in friendlies with Diddy! (He randomly SD'd twice lol).
 

HFlash

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Regardless if it was or wasn't for glory, it was still pretty impressive (maybe I am just bad, and easily impressed). The footstool setup was almost ZSS D-smash like in giving Lucas a free follow up off of a grab. I'm sure it's character specific, and maybe DI-able, but it's definitely an interesting option I had no idea Lucas had. Furthermore, if the guy was able to pull it off pretty consistently with lag, it can probably be done even more consistently off line.

Oh, and congrats on the friendly win :). Definitely game changing news.
 

Man Li Gi

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Just watched the Ryuga set. Ryuga legit lost it himself. Game 1 was his as ZeRo felt the fear, but was pleased as Ryuga killed himself. Even with that Ryuga still was close as that fsmash "read" should have hit Zero, but I believe they eliminated the hotboxes above and behind Ike for that move.

Game 2 was close, but I think Zero understood Ryuga at that point. Ryuga kept recovering in a linear high fashion. Ryuga also failed to punish the vanish recoveries. As the meta further develops, I believe vanish edgeguarding will have to step it up.

I really dunno what to say about game 3. Zero stuff.

What is proven to me is that:

A. Midwest ain't free no more
B. Zero is human, therefore has flaws
C. Ike has a chance.....on stage only though
D. Sheik is good on stage, offstage/covering ledge options is what makes her top tier.

Seriously guys, the first thing Sheiks want is you offstage because there are some characters who can legit, tango with her ON STAGE. Off stage, she has a solid way to deal with foes.
 

Conda

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Regardless if it was or wasn't for glory, it was still pretty impressive (maybe I am just bad, and easily impressed). The footstool setup was almost ZSS D-smash like in giving Lucas a free follow up off of a grab. I'm sure it's character specific, and maybe DI-able, but it's definitely an interesting option I had no idea Lucas had. Furthermore, if the guy was able to pull it off pretty consistently with lag, it can probably be done even more consistently off line.

Oh, and congrats on the friendly win :). Definitely game changing news.
In fighting games, it fully matters who someone is fighting against. The Ken Combo isn't impressive because it looks cool, it's impressive because it's difficult to pull off against talented players.
 
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FallofBrawl

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In fighting games, it fully matters who someone is fighting against. The Ken Combo isn't impressive because it looks cool, it's impressive because it's difficult to pull off against talented players.
While you say it is impressive against better players, when the Ganon was down thrown there was literally nothing he could do except mix up DI and mash air dodge (which he was doing) and still getting caught by it. For Glory or not, even top players wouldn't be able to escape from that situation
 
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NachoOfCheese

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While you say it is impressive against better players, when the Ganon was down thrown there was literally nothing he could do except mix up DI and mash air dodge (which he was doing) and still getting caught by it. For Glory or not, even top players wouldn't be able to escape from that situation
Top level players also don't use Ganon
 

Man Li Gi

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Alright, just watched the vod Saj v Dolo. It showed the right way to play against Luigi, space and low commit. It really works and is very efficient. The method really exemplifies the mobility issue Luigi has.

Now to the stream people and the effect of this match.

Streams are notorious with having long pauses between matches and this make people anxious and angsty for the next match. I imagine going to the movies and watching previews that last for 25 mins to only then watch a film that lasts for 4 hours that had a plot line paper thin and had mediocre characters. In other words, I see where there anger stems from, but they need to calm down and think first before going ballistic. Vods are different because you can FF and RW all you want, but stream has to take it and like it.

At the tournament I was in last night (I promise it relates), I was helping TO and run brackets (BTW, I run a mean bracket). We were heavily debating to bump up to three stocks or not. While running brackets, I knew we didn't have optimal amount of setups, let alone the setups are of any quality. That meant that not every body in the same round could play. This means we had awkward waiting sessions to wait for setups to open up. If we had this type of match going on, we'd have to do nothing and bide time as someone is holding bracket as hostage.

From this point on, I will be talking about "radical" things:
That would ruin any sort of notion of fast game or three stock is cool.

While 2 stocks ain't bad characters like Lucario and Wario benefit the most cuz Wario can wait out and get an early detrimental kill and lucario aura is nuff said. Then there's people's propensity to SD just cuz. While SD do happen in other formats, it hurts the most in 2 stock. I find it weird that both PM and Melee have their fair share of slow matches, the game is generally regarded as fast. Yet Smash 4 has had few slow matches, but are too slow. If people want to find smash 4 and people tell them that it's too slow, people would have confirmation bias and look for Static Manny V True Blue, Dabuz v Abadango, and this match. While the MU is being played right and everything, it just doesn't bode well if the strat is taken on a larger scale. I am using my ethos, logos, and very little pathos.
 

Nobie

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Alright, just watched the vod Saj v Dolo. It showed the right way to play against Luigi, space and low commit. It really works and is very efficient. The method really exemplifies the mobility issue Luigi has.

Now to the stream people and the effect of this match.

Streams are notorious with having long pauses between matches and this make people anxious and angsty for the next match. I imagine going to the movies and watching previews that last for 25 mins to only then watch a film that lasts for 4 hours that had a plot line paper thin and had mediocre characters. In other words, I see where there anger stems from, but they need to calm down and think first before going ballistic. Vods are different because you can FF and RW all you want, but stream has to take it and like it.

At the tournament I was in last night (I promise it relates), I was helping TO and run brackets (BTW, I run a mean bracket). We were heavily debating to bump up to three stocks or not. While running brackets, I knew we didn't have optimal amount of setups, let alone the setups are of any quality. That meant that not every body in the same round could play. This means we had awkward waiting sessions to wait for setups to open up. If we had this type of match going on, we'd have to do nothing and bide time as someone is holding bracket as hostage.

From this point on, I will be talking about "radical" things:
That would ruin any sort of notion of fast game or three stock is cool.

While 2 stocks ain't bad characters like Lucario and Wario benefit the most cuz Wario can wait out and get an early detrimental kill and lucario aura is nuff said. Then there's people's propensity to SD just cuz. While SD do happen in other formats, it hurts the most in 2 stock. I find it weird that both PM and Melee have their fair share of slow matches, the game is generally regarded as fast. Yet Smash 4 has had few slow matches, but are too slow. If people want to find smash 4 and people tell them that it's too slow, people would have confirmation bias and look for Static Manny V True Blue, Dabuz v Abadango, and this match. While the MU is being played right and everything, it just doesn't bode well if the strat is taken on a larger scale. I am using my ethos, logos, and very little pathos.
The world watches in horror as the winner of the Smash Bros. DLC contest is "Swarm Host from Starcraft 2."
 

HFlash

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Top level players also don't use Ganon
They don't use Lucas either, so videos from that player are the only glimpses at what Lucas can do in a capable person's hands. Until an "Esam/SlayerZ/Twitch" pops up in the American scene, this is what we got. We have spent alot of time on this thread complaining about the top characters in the game, and their exploits. Which is well, fine, sure, but it'd be nice to add some character diversity to the conversation. The biggest appeal of Smash 4 is the fact that it is by far the most balanced Smash game in the series, so why not Ganon? If Ike has a shot vs Zero's Shiek, why can't a really good Ganon do the same? Speaking of Ganon, isn't there a really good Ganon in the NYC area called Zex? or Vex? (Something along those lines).

Edit: Man Li Gi Man Li Gi I imagine the tournament you were running had alot of new players right? Because honestly, when you haven't gotten over tournament jitters, it's very common to sort of tunnel vision, and SD alot (personal experience since I'm a bad :(). Assuming most people aren't SDing, and playing defensively once they take a lead, 3 stocks is going to take a real long time. Unless you guys either
a) have alot of time to work with or
b) don't have too many entrants
2 stocks might be better. Especially with the ledge mechanic in this game, each individual stock is valued more so since gimping for the most part, doesn't happen (maybe we will get better at it in the future, IDK).
 
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Meru.

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Their best Marios are FILIP (king of Kyushu, Top 6 at Hyper Sumabato, Top 16 at Umebura 19)
FILIP is a fantastic Mario player, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him the King of Kyushu. He got third at the latest tourney. Shuton, a crazy Olimar, is more likely to be considered king of Kyushu. Still FILIP's Mario is absolutely amazing.

I'm so lucky for having had the oppurtnity to play a lot against them yay~
 

Man Li Gi

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There are always new people at every tournament. That wasn't the issue. We finished too early. There was a lot of dead time cuz we finished far ahead of schedule. This is not the first time we have had this either.not my first time running brackets.
 

Jucchan

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FILIP is a fantastic Mario player, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him the King of Kyushu. He got third at the latest tourney. Shuton, a crazy Olimar, is more likely to be considered king of Kyushu. Still FILIP's Mario is absolutely amazing.

I'm so lucky for having had the oppurtnity to play a lot against them yay~
Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I thought FILIP was doing better because he goes to way more tournaments in Kansai and Kanto.
 

Charoite

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Alright, just watched the vod Saj v Dolo. It showed the right way to play against Luigi, space and low commit. It really works and is very efficient. The method really exemplifies the mobility issue Luigi has.

Now to the stream people and the effect of this match.

Streams are notorious with having long pauses between matches and this make people anxious and angsty for the next match. I imagine going to the movies and watching previews that last for 25 mins to only then watch a film that lasts for 4 hours that had a plot line paper thin and had mediocre characters. In other words, I see where there anger stems from, but they need to calm down and think first before going ballistic. Vods are different because you can FF and RW all you want, but stream has to take it and like it.

At the tournament I was in last night (I promise it relates), I was helping TO and run brackets (BTW, I run a mean bracket). We were heavily debating to bump up to three stocks or not. While running brackets, I knew we didn't have optimal amount of setups, let alone the setups are of any quality. That meant that not every body in the same round could play. This means we had awkward waiting sessions to wait for setups to open up. If we had this type of match going on, we'd have to do nothing and bide time as someone is holding bracket as hostage.

From this point on, I will be talking about "radical" things:
That would ruin any sort of notion of fast game or three stock is cool.

While 2 stocks ain't bad characters like Lucario and Wario benefit the most cuz Wario can wait out and get an early detrimental kill and lucario aura is nuff said. Then there's people's propensity to SD just cuz. While SD do happen in other formats, it hurts the most in 2 stock. I find it weird that both PM and Melee have their fair share of slow matches, the game is generally regarded as fast. Yet Smash 4 has had few slow matches, but are too slow. If people want to find smash 4 and people tell them that it's too slow, people would have confirmation bias and look for Static Manny V True Blue, Dabuz v Abadango, and this match. While the MU is being played right and everything, it just doesn't bode well if the strat is taken on a larger scale. I am using my ethos, logos, and very little pathos.
Well is more of a stigma that is carried from Brawl who is seen as a bad game becuase is camping or defensive, so when people see anything that resembles defensive play of the sucessor of that game they wil get mad, even if the match is nothing like brawl, but becuase of that stigma defensive playstyle in smash will seen as bad.
 

Smog Frog

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can i have a link to the match that everyones talking about? the match where someone played properly vs :4luigi:? i missed it.
 

Mario766

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Us Ike mains have been labbing out what covers what ledge options, it gets pretty insane once we start learning the different option timings since our option covers kills at like 100 easily.
 

Mario766

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What would you say are his best options?
Up tilt and F-Tilt are his most usable options. FF Up Air also works because it lasts so damn long like up tilt, but up-tilt is generoud at 10 frames of hitboxes and if you slightly miss you still get the sour-spot which will still work. Ryuga used F-Tilt against Rayuaza and it killed at like 100, with it having a huge cover range and being safe.
 
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