Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I've seen some people, including top-level players, say that no one decent should ever get hit by Mewtwo's Disable. Do you think this is actually the case, or is there more to consider?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've seen some people, including top-level players, say that no one decent should ever get hit by Mewtwo's Disable. Do you think this is actually the case, or is there more to consider?

I think it's like how people used to say that good Warios in Brawl would never get grabbed and yet it still happened at top levels of play. If the player good enough, they'll find a way. Even if it's totally improvised, good players still manage to get kills on other good players using seemingly impractical moves like Kirby's hammer, Dedede's jet hammer, Ike's eruption, and Ganondorf's utilt from time to time.

 

[Vipermoon]

You'll be able to see it Saturday for Rebirth V, a regional. I hear ZeRo is going to it, along with people like Ally and Zinoto.

Ally isn't. I am, hbu?

Wasn't ZeRo like, skipping basically everything until The Big House or something like that or did I miss something? It'd be nice to see him there for real.

ZeRo is going to this plus (most likely) the two Thursday MI weeklies before TBH. He retweeted a TO's tweet that said he was going to Rebirth and the MI Smash 4 FB group has confirmed it too.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think it's like how people used to say that good Warios in Brawl would never get grabbed and yet it still happened at top levels of play. If the player good enough, they'll find a way. Even if it's totally improvised, good players still manage to get kills on other good players using seemingly impractical moves like Kirby's hammer, Dedede's jet hammer, Ike's eruption, and Ganondorf's utilt from time to time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't buy for a minute that Wario and Peach are better than Pacman.

That doesn't make it any less true. :v

On an unrelated note, I made a couple videos on the nuances of some recoveries. Be more proactive.

 

[Froggy]

That doesn't make it any less true. :v

its NOT true at all.

You can also drop Metaknight in that list of characters who shouldn't be above Pacman as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Aether is dumb. Its like they took the hitbox and shifted the entire thing forwards. It has a bunch of invisible hitboxes in front of it, but nada behind it.

 

[Zelder]

its NOT true at all.

You can also drop Metaknight in that list of characters who shouldn't be above Pacman as well.

You have a bright career ahead of you in this thread, I can tell.

 

[Froggy]

I really would just like to play anyone who criticizes me online and beat your asses.

 

[momochuu]

Hearing that Dee is this good gives weight to my suspicion that Some is (significantly) better than aMSa.

i'm late, but amsa is not even the best greninja in japan. its definitely consomme right now. his combo game and neutral are ridiculously on point.

 

[the king of murder]

I really would just like to play anyone who criticizes me online and beat your *****.

This thread is for theoretical purposes. If you want us to acknowledge your statement, bring some good arguments with you. If you want us to recognize your skill, go to tournaments with good players and show us results. That's how it works. Winning online games proves nothing.

 

[Froggy]

This thread is for theoretical purposes. If you want us to acknowledge your statement, bring some good arguments with you. If you want us to recognize your skill, go to tournaments with good players and show us results. That's how it works. Winning online games proves nothing.

It can't all be based on theory, I mean practical applications are important. I just don't think that people who suck at a game have any business criticizing others.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It can't all be based on theory, I mean practical applications are important. I just don't think that people who suck at a game have any business criticizing others.

And I guess you're the master arbiter of skill in this video game? People don't suck at the game just because they disagree with you.

 

[Froggy]

And I guess you're the master arbiter of skill in this video game? People don't suck at the game just because they disagree with you.

You can typically tell if someone sucks quickly enough when you play them.So of course I'd have to play someone to find this out, however I must say I'm quite confident that @ Zelder isn't good at this game at all.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ Jucchan
I thought Nyanko plays DK and Sheik...,.am I outdated?

@ Froggy
I used to hear this statement a lot

 

[Zelder]

You can typically tell if someone sucks quickly enough when you play them.So of course I'd have to play someone to find this out, however I must say I'm quite confident that @ Zelder isn't good at this game at all.

Of course I'm bad at Smash! Have you ever tried to hold a Gamecube controller with dog paws?




But seriously, you should actually form some arguments instead of just blindly insulting people that disagree with you because you have a hair trigger temper. It makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

[Jucchan]

@ Jucchan
I thought Nyanko plays DK and Sheik...,.am I outdated?

Nyanko does play Sheik and DK, but mostly Sheik. Last tourney he got top 16, and the one before that top 48.

 

[wedl!!]

I don't buy for a minute that Wario and Peach are better than Pacman.

Guessing we found a new Pac player.

 

[Nu~]

Guessing we found a new Pac player.

That ain't right.

 

[Froggy]

Of course I'm bad at Smash! Have you ever tried to hold a Gamecube controller with dog paws?

But seriously, you should actually form some arguments instead of just blindly insulting people that disagree with you because you have a hair trigger temper. It makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

I'm not angry at all. Just mildly annoyed and defeating annoying people, I have found, is a good way alleviate irritation while simultaneously extracting some level of amusement.

Also I have found it's really not helpful to theorycraft with bad players. No offense but they really just don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Zelder]

I'm not angry at all. Just mildly annoyed and defeating annoying people, I have found, is a good way alleviate irritation while simultaneously extracting some level of amusement.

Also I have found it's really not helpful to theorycraft with bad players. No offense but they really just don't know what they are talking about.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Challenging random players to prove a point like you're a cowboy in an old west town? Accusing other posters of being bad because (???)? Saying that Pac Man is better than Peach (dubious), Wario (super dubious), and Meta Knight (super laffo) but not once mentioning why you think that's true? You come across as a caricature. I'd love to read your opinions on why Pac-Man is so good, but you have to realize that you're making an extremely weak case so far.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also I have found it's really not helpful to theorycraft with bad players. No offense but they really just don't know what they are talking about.

That's why people are politely telling you that you don't know what you're talking about.

People with better results than you (Reflex) are telling you you're wrong. By your own logic, you know nothing. You're also a name that nobody recognizes, you probably have zero offline placings (even I have a freaking local tournament win under my belt), and you think online matters for anything.

So again by your own logic, you know nothing. Its really not helpful for us to theorycraft with you. But luckily for us you aren't even trying.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Nu~ Keep your crew in line fam, your their leader right?

@ Jucchan Any vids of Rains Metaknight?

 

[Nobie]

I'm not angry at all. Just mildly annoyed and defeating annoying people, I have found, is a good way alleviate irritation while simultaneously extracting some level of amusement.

Also I have found it's really not helpful to theorycraft with bad players. No offense but they really just don't know what they are talking about.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you are by far the superior player, that you would clobber anyone and everyone in this thread 10x over.

If you come in and defeat @ Zelder or whoever, that doesn't prove that Pac-Man is the better character, it proves that you're the better player. With enough of a skill difference, matchup ratios get skewed, naturally. How many times do we have to ask, is this character actually good, or is it ZeRo/Trela pulling out miracles?

Now, if you're arguing that, because you're a much better player then that means we should listen to you more, obviously having the results and the ability to back up your claims is significant, but even the highest-level players disagree with each other. Abadango, one of the world's best Pac-Men, rates Mewtwo as B-Tier. WHO DOES THAT? Like even as a Mewtwo player I was shocked to see him that high up, even if I do think people tend to underrate him.

This is why this thread is constantly combining theory with results. This is why opinions have changed so drastically over time. Every time new results come in, it asks if we should reconsider our theory. Discussing theory, in turn, is an attempt to break down and analyze what has happened in this game thus far. If you look at Diddy Kong, people asked at first if he was really that OP. Obviously he was getting results, but was that just the best players being the best? Then we saw the army of players switching over to Diddy overnight...and then we knew something was up. What exactly was it though? It turns out that Diddy's most dominant tools were so good that people outside of ZeRo neglected to actually develop the rest of his toolkit, and this became obvious after the patches that nerfed Diddy Kong.

The point of this thread is to share information, but in a way that gets everyone to think. If you can't position an even half-decently structured argument (something as simple as Pac-Man is above Wario and Peach because Fruit gives him so many options), then you don't understand why even bad players' input is encouraged here. tl;dr: it's a DISCUSSION.

 

[Jucchan]

@ Jucchan Any vids of Rains Metaknight?

He's never used it in tournament yet, he picked him up after Umebura 19, where he lost to Abadango's Pac-man and Shu's Sheik. At least according to his tweets, it seems like he's been labbing pretty hard. It'll definitely be hype if he unveils his MK on stream.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ally isn't. I am, hbu?



ZeRo is going to this plus (most likely) the two Thursday MI weeklies before TBH. He retweeted a TO's tweet that said he was going to Rebirth and the MI Smash 4 FB group has confirmed it too.

If I go, it'll be just friendlies because I'm busy that morning. Hopefully I can make it, would love to play against you + others.

 

[Nu~]

@ Nu~ Keep your crew in line fam, your their leader right?

I want nothing to do with this conversation lol

 

[Blobface]

I'm just curious... How big of a disjoint does Shiek's Fair have? Or was the whole thing cooked up by salty players?

Her arm is intangible during the whole swing, making it disjointed. You can test yourself in training with a bumper.

Speaking of disjointed F-air's that are safe on shield, Ganon's disjointed fastfallen F-air is now safe on shield from everything I've tested* when spaced due to a combination of pushback and shieldstun. It's not the watertight safety of certain other Zelda series F-airs, but a character as unsafe as Ganon loves this.

*Needles, C-falcon Dashgrab, ZSS and Link tether, Sheik F-air OoS.

 

[Froggy]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Challenging random players to prove a point like you're a cowboy in an old west town? Accusing other posters of being bad because (???)? Saying that Pac Man is better than Peach (dubious), Wario (super dubious), and Meta Knight (super laffo) but not once mentioning why you think that's true? You come across as a caricature. I'd love to read your opinions on why Pac-Man is so good, but you have to realize that you're making an extremely weak case so far.

The only player I have challenged as of my typing this is YOU. The only player I have accused of being bad is YOU. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me it's just an educated hunch based on what you have said so far. My challenge to you was simply to prove that me theory about you being a bad player is correct.

That's why people are politely telling you that you don't know what you're talking about.

People with better results than you (Reflex) are telling you you're wrong. By your own logic, you know nothing. You're also a name that nobody recognizes, you probably have zero offline placings (even I have a freaking local tournament win under my belt), and you think online matters for anything.

So again by your own logic, you know nothing. Its really not helpful for us to theorycraft with you. But luckily for us you aren't even trying.

The cool thing now is that we live in a world where claims about being a good player or bad player can actually be validated with minimal effort, congrats on your local win and if you think that qualifies you as good player or that I'm a bad player why don't we play and we can prove it. It's fairly simple right?

Btw it has been my experience that if not the majority a substantial amount of people who posts in tournaments like this(see the melee matchup thread archives) do not actually attend tournaments are strictly streamers only(I suppose for this game they would play online though); which I don't think will provide much valuable insight for a topic like this

 

[Mario766]

Ally isn't. I am, hbu?



ZeRo is going to this plus (most likely) the two Thursday MI weeklies before TBH. He retweeted a TO's tweet that said he was going to Rebirth and the MI Smash 4 FB group has confirmed it too.

Rebirth is going to have basically the entire Midwest, Zero, Georgia and Canada involved. The week of BH5, the Southfield weekly is going to have Zero, Nairo, the PG gang including MVD and ESAM there including others.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The cool thing now is that we live in a world where claims about being a good player or bad player can actually be validated with minimal effort, congrats on your local win and if you think that qualifies you as good player or that I'm a bad player why don't we play and we can prove it. It's fairly simple right?

Because wifi is completely and uttering different than offline and are two different games.

For example: Ike's throw combos? Pretty much don't work on wifi, certainly not reliably. Timing is way too strict and wifi messes with it. Projectiles are heavily magnified because its much harder to PS them due to fluctuating internet (and thus input delay). Precision spacing is more difficult for the same reason. Recovering and edgeguarding are both more difficult (Eruption's timing on the 2 frame ledge vulnerability is already mad difficult. Impossible to do reliably online.)

MUs are completely different online and offline. Offline Ike beats Sonic to the point that Static Manny switches off of Sonic when facing Ryo. Online? Ahahaha shoot me plz.

So instead of dancing around the issue just tell us: what offline experience do you have in SSB4?

 

[ARGHETH]

So instead of dancing around the issue just tell us: what offline experience do you have in SSB4?

He's been in a few 3DS tournaments.

Guys, just ignore the "you don't know anything unless you've been in a tournament" parts of Froggy's post. The last time he did this on the Robin boards (the customs for Robin topic) it degenerated really quick.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Totally not the thread for challenging people to matches and reading this back and forth is getting pretty tedious... Take it to PMs if you have to but, FFS, don't turn this thread into the equivalent of a "My dad can beat up your dad" argument...I've only read one page of this pissing contest and I'm already burned out on it so I'm sure most people here are too...

 

[Zelder]

Please don't encourage the weird internet tough guy to PM me.

Anyways, one thing I find interesting about the Japanese meta is that their players/tier lists (or at least the ones I've seen) tend to rate Mario very highly, and yet I can't think of any notable Japanese Mario mains. I wonder why that is?

 

[BSP]

Please don't encourage the weird internet tough guy to PM me.

Anyways, one thing I find interesting about the Japanese meta is that their players/tier lists (or at least the ones I've seen) tend to rate Mario very highly, and yet I can't think of any notable Japanese Mario mains. I wonder why that is?

Yeah, it's weird. I think I've seen him as high as #5 before. My guess is that it's because he's super solid on paper. That being said, he isn't a character I would name if you asked me who is most likely going to take a national. He's an odd case in this game.

 

[Zionaze]

Similar to yoshi over here, they believe in his untapped potential.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think it's like how people used to say that good Warios in Brawl would never get grabbed and yet it still happened at top levels of play. If the player good enough, they'll find a way. Even if it's totally improvised, good players still manage to get kills on other good players using seemingly impractical moves like Kirby's hammer, Dedede's jet hammer, Ike's eruption, and Ganondorf's utilt from time to time.

I don't think disable is really comparable to the moves you listed. It starts faster than both his forward facing smashes and has more range than his longest ranged ground move in dtilt (even if only by a few pixels). You can reactively punish some relatively laggy moves with it reactively, which is more than can be said for those moves.

Now of course there's plenty other reasons that it's tricky to land, but it doesn't really take a huge mistake to get hit by it.

 

[Froggy]

Because wifi is completely and uttering different than offline and are two different games.

For example: Ike's throw combos? Pretty much don't work on wifi, certainly not reliably. Timing is way too strict and wifi messes with it. Projectiles are heavily magnified because its much harder to PS them due to fluctuating internet (and thus input delay). Precision spacing is more difficult for the same reason. Recovering and edgeguarding are both more difficult (Eruption's timing on the 2 frame ledge vulnerability is already mad difficult. Impossible to do reliably online.)

MUs are completely different online and offline. Offline Ike beats Sonic to the point that Static Manny switches off of Sonic when facing Ryo. Online? Ahahaha shoot me plz.

So instead of dancing around the issue just tell us: what offline experience do you have in SSB4?

Yikes that's a hyperbolic post if I've ever seen one.

What you describe is only the reality if there is a ba internet connection. If the connection is solid like it should be then what you you're saying just sin't true. And it really sounds like a rather out there odge to avoid playing me because you're afraid of loosing. Whatever though.

As for me offline I'm not sure how to answer that. Haven't been able to play offline nearly as much as I'd like since I on't have a car. There one tournament series that I did attend semi-regularly was a pretty stacked tournament n central Jersey which had some of the best players in the state as regulars(Namely Nakat and False), an I did manage to get on the top 8 power rankings in the previous season despite attending irregularly.

And to be clear I'm in no way claiming to be an amazing or even great player, just that I'm at least better than @ Zelder is.

 

[L9999]

Similar to yoshi over here, they believe in his untapped potential.

That boat needs to die already. No one plays Yoshi. More people play Greninja and Peach than Yoshi.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Even with the absolute best internet connection, there will always be around 7 frames of input lag because the input has got to register between both systems. That's why it's hard to get Ike's/*insert character here*'s throw strings going because many of them have a small frame window of success that can be thrown off by the small delay and being accustomed to offline timing.

It's also why Mario, Luigi, Sonic, and Falcon are notorious online, because that frame delay is all they need to sneak a button in for the former two, and to sneak themselves in for the latter two.