Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[T4ylor]

Yeah, @bc1910, Some is most likely the best Greninja right now. He took 5th at Umebura19 and seems to keep on improving.

 

[Routa]

I think the most interesting characters with respect to "unearned" popularity representation are the Miis. I think they'll always be underrepped for their actual strength because they're not that interesting, or at least not nearly so much as other iconic characters. I'd say for a Mii to be the most-played character, they'd have to be the best in the game by a sizeable margin.

My Miitler disagrees with you.

But I think 2 main factors why Miis are unpopular are: No FG support and not being allow to customise your Mii in most of the tournaments (only reason why I'm going to bring my 2DS for a tournaments... I wont touch thous filthy Guest Miis).

 

[SPoitter]

Nitpick here and for future reference: grab game and throw game are completely different ideas e.g. Fox has a good grab game, but a poor throw game vs. ZSS has a bad grab game, but good throw game. Also, resorting to ****, ****, and *** to emphasis a statement isn't exactly good use of vocabulary. There are countless adjectives and adverbs in the English language you can use. This isn't English class, but if I see another ******* statement about how character J can **** **** up for character ******* K, I'm going to flip a table and slam it over a frog.

My Miitler disagrees with you.

But I think 2 main factors why Miis are unpopular are: No FG support and not being allow to customise your Mii in most of the tournaments (only reason why I'm going to bring my 2DS for a tournaments... I wont touch thous filthy Guest Miis).

I thought miis were unpopular because if it wasn't for Brawler's dthrow custom2 up b and utilt, he'd be along with the other 2, in the low tier trash. Plus they're really easy to exploit, because they have only one thing to actually gain mileage off of so it comes off as super blatant sometimes

 

[Nobie]

I don't want to make this thread too much about Miis (because there are like two or three threads about that already), but I wonder if the hatred of Mii players towards 1111 is partly psychological, that they feel as if something is being taken from them. If custom moves didn't exist and people decided to play Miis, they'd probably complain that their special moves lack synergy, but I imagine at least a few would accept this flaw and continue to use them. However, because people have tasted the sweet nectar of Helicopter Kick (btw has anyone ever made a Jean-Claude Van Damme Mii), they don't want it taken away.

That being said, it's not wrong for players to think that way, and in fact it's pretty natural. Imagine if DK had Kong Cyclone as his default Up B and a patch switched it out for regular Spinning Kong. DK players would probably throw a fit.

At the same time, as someone who likes using a DLC character, Customs On and Miis having custom moves feels a bit wrong, as it further disadvanages DLC characters who cannot cherry-pick their moves.

 

[SPoitter]

Customs On and Miis having custom moves feels a bit wrong, as it further disadvanages DLC characters who cannot cherry-pick their moves.

I'm confused, what do you mean, can't Miis use sets other than 1111 because customs don't need to be on for their moves to be used? Or is this just some tourney rule I haven't heard of .-.

 

[T4ylor]

I'm confused, what do you mean, can't Miis use sets other than 1111 because customs don't need to be on for their moves to be used? Or is this just some tourney rule I haven't heard of .-.

They could if the TOs allowed them, but most TOs restrict Miis to default size 1111 specials - if they even DO allow Mii Fighters.

 

[Nobie]

I'm confused, what do you mean, can't Miis use sets other than 1111 because customs don't need to be on for their moves to be used? Or is this just some tourney rule I haven't heard of .-.

There's a lot of debate over this subject. Some make the argument that you mention, that Miis should be granted custom moves due to the interface, but others believe that to not be as strong an argument as its proponents wish it to be. The main argument against it is that we shouldn't base our rules mainly on UI quirks, and that it gives Miis an unfair advantage in that they're granted access to many more moves that can be swapped in and out to take on specific opponents, something no other character has the luxury of in an customs-off environment.

It all comes down to the issue of "fairness," as it's possible to interpret the idea in so many different ways. People against customizable Miis believe that it is unfair for Miis to have all of these extra options, while people in favor of them believe that it is unfair that so many other characters are granted superior synergy in their special moves while Miis are left to suffer.

I think what complicates all of this is the fact that most characters do not get to have moves that explicitly make up for their weaknesses, while arguably this is something achievable by Miis.

 

[T4ylor]

The concept of fairness is silly to me when there's a character as bad as Zelda and we allow the use of one as amazing as Sheik.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Dee and Some are better than Abadango and Amsa at handling their respective characters and using their tools but at least Abadango will likely outplace Dee for a while for one reason or another. Experience being one of them.

Which would be what, exactly.

Tournament results in that specific matchup.

People understand how his basics work in theory. Theorycrafting or labbing the character isn't the hard part. His movement, his range, and therefore his spacing is different to most characters and this 'getting the feel' for him is harder than others. Having these kinds of things down in muscle memory to whip out on the fly in tourneys is harder with Pika than it is with most other characters.

I don't see how that's the case. On a fundamental level Pikachu functions somewhat similar to a character like Fox who is super easy to play. Maybe I'm just wrong about it but I don't really see it.

Lol @ Cockblock brigade.

"Gatekeeper" or whatever other whack term people use just sounds so generic.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't want to make this thread too much about Miis (because there are like two or three threads about that already), but I wonder if the hatred of Mii players towards 1111 is partly psychological, that they feel as if something is being taken from them. If custom moves didn't exist and people decided to play Miis, they'd probably complain that their special moves lack synergy, but I imagine at least a few would accept this flaw and continue to use them. However, because people have tasted the sweet nectar of Helicopter Kick (btw has anyone ever made a Jean-Claude Van Damme Mii), they don't want it taken away.

That being said, it's not wrong for players to think that way, and in fact it's pretty natural. Imagine if DK had Kong Cyclone as his default Up B and a patch switched it out for regular Spinning Kong. DK players would probably throw a fit.

At the same time, as someone who likes using a DLC character, Customs On and Miis having custom moves feels a bit wrong, as it further disadvanages DLC characters who cannot cherry-pick their moves.

people don't like playing Miis for two reasons: they are almost always without their alternate moves which makes them not viable, but the biggest reason why is that you aren't allowed to use a personal a mii maker Mii. The most fun thing about playing as a Mii is that the Mii can be whoever you want it to be.

Dapuffster plays as a character he made, Trela plays as himself, and Chompy (btw @ CHOMPY am i talking about you?) plays as Uncle Bob, (I honestly don't know who he is, sorry). While, I'm not sure about Dapuffster, Trela ended up playing as Swordfighter because he could play as himself as a pirate (part of an in joke IIRC) with a flower on his head. Being forced to play as official artwork Miis destroys their most marketed quality, the fact that they can be anyone. If there exist a character or person you have a strong connection with. Mii mains don't main Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner, they main the likes of their friends, family, idols,even their own original character that were it not for smash would exist in a remote corner of the world.

I used to main EVO Swordfighter (aka the custom project Swordfighter) but dropped him for the far more inferior APEX Antonykun-the-Swordfighter because I can actually get attached to beating the tar out of top tiers like Shiek or ZSS as myself rather than as some random blonde guy with no personality

 

[SPoitter]

There's a lot of debate over this subject. Some make the argument that you mention, that Miis should be granted custom moves due to the interface, but others believe that to not be as strong an argument as its proponents wish it to be. The main argument against it is that we shouldn't base our rules mainly on UI quirks, and that it gives Miis an unfair advantage in that they're granted access to many more moves that can be swapped in and out to take on specific opponents, something no other character has the luxury of in an customs-off environment.

It all comes down to the issue of "fairness," as it's possible to interpret the idea in so many different ways. People against customizable Miis believe that it is unfair for Miis to have all of these extra options, while people in favor of them believe that it is unfair that so many other characters are granted superior synergy in their special moves while Miis are left to suffer.

I think what complicates all of this is the fact that most characters do not get to have moves that explicitly make up for their weaknesses, while arguably this is something achievable by Miis.

I'm gonna stay neutral on this, and I find it hard to be anything but neutral. It's interesting that people think fairness is a problem with the Mii Fighters because of being able to use a bunch of different movesets, and if this rule didn't exist the meta (if the fighters got more recognition) would be pretty different, the amount of sets that can exist would be staggering, tier lists would have probably multiple different placements each corresponding to every respective set (I would imagine really, some MUs with Mii Gunner favor the up B custom 2, which is a uppercut that kills at 100%, the earliest Gunner can kill in general), and then there's the problem of accurately judging these characters, seems like a weird hassle that was avoided.

 

[Teshie U]

People probably wouldn't care about the customs so much if Brawlers Up Bs werent so bonkers.

Gunner and Swordsman are definitely usable characters without customs because they have actual recoveries.

 

[Ulevo]

Tournament results in that specific matchup.

Do elaborate. Outside of Ito being better than most of his region and Mr. R playing poorly at a tournament in a match up he clearly had no experience in, I see no meaningful results.

 

[LiteralGrill]

People probably wouldn't care about the customs so much if Brawlers Up Bs werent so bonkers.

If people got how unbonkers it actually was... It wouldn't be a problem. I'd call in Dapuffster here but I know he's a bit worn out on the whole Miigality deal but really, players not knowing how to deal with the move was the real problem.

 

[HFlash]

Maybe if there was a anti-mii front page article, their legality wouldn't be an issue (SARCASM). It just doesn't make sense that ZSS has almost a very similar up B yet, no one ever complains about it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What are you talking about? I complain about Boost Kick and Shuttle Loop all the time.

 

[DunnoBro]

Maybe if there was a anti-mii front page article, their legality wouldn't be an issue (SARCASM). It just doesn't make sense that ZSS has almost a very similar up B yet, no one ever complains about it.

People do complain about it and guarantee at least one move from about half the cast would be banned if people thought they could rally for it without looking scrubby.

 

[HFlash]

People do complain about it and guarantee at least one move from about half the cast would be banned if people thought they could rally for it without looking scrubby.

So essentially, Mii Brawler is the easiest kid in the playground to push down. Well, the best way I can put it is that the top tiers in the game have multiple tools or "toys" in their disposal. If you were to take away one of the tools, say ZSS upB, Shiek Needles, Rosa Uair, and so on. Poor Mii Brawler has this one really nice toy, and now that he has it taken away, he's left crying in the sandbox, unviable. Oh, and for the person who mentioned DK and Wind Up B, DK was given another toy with the throw kill confirm to compensate.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think megaman will soon be high tier and with some buffs he can make it to top tier

 

[Teshie U]

The move is objectively pretty bonkers. The rest of the character is just underwhelming enough that he can get away with it. Aside from the true combos into those obnoxious Up Bs, they still wind up being absurd moves off of small reads

So essentially, Mii Brawler is the easiest kid in the playground to push down. Well, the best way I can put it is that the top tiers in the game have multiple tools or "toys" in their disposal. If you were to take away one of the tools, say ZSS upB, Shiek Needles, Rosa Uair, and so on. Poor Mii Brawler has this one really nice toy, and now that he has it taken away, he's left crying in the sandbox, unviable. Oh, and for the person who mentioned DK and Wind Up B, DK was given another toy with the throw kill confirm to compensate.

You just pointed out a major problem with customs. They just aren't being considered for balancing. If Mii Brawler gets buffed like DK did, does he really need some crazy up B on top of that?

 

[DunnoBro]

You just pointed out a major problem with customs. They just aren't being considered for balancing. If Mii Brawler gets buffed like DK did, does he really need some crazy up B on top of that?

Kind of hard to tell if alt mii specials are considered for balance since they've been pretty notably nerfed AND buffed since launch. No other characters have had direct buffs to their "Customs"

 

[FullMoon]

I think Dee and Some are better than Abadango and Amsa at handling their respective characters and using their tools but at least Abadango will likely outplace Dee for a while for one reason or another. Experience being one of them.

That seems to be the case, Some improved a lot all of sudden, he might just be the best Greninja right now.

Do elaborate. Outside of Ito being better than most of his region and Mr. R playing poorly at a tournament in a match up he clearly had no experience in, I see no meaningful results.

Hasn't it been said already that Mr.R does know the MK MU due to frequently practicing with... I think Tyrant?

I could be wrong though.

 

[Teshie U]

Kind of hard to tell if alt mii specials are considered for balance since they've been pretty notably nerfed AND buffed since launch. No other characters have had direct buffs to their "Customs"

Hardly any balanced to the customs. Just alterations.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It's not any one move or any one set of moves that's a problem, is the fact that if miis are allowed to use any of their specials they can tailor their kit to better deal with individual situations without learning a new character.

"Your samus didn't do well against my swordfighter so you're gonna switch to Marth? Well fine I'm gonna switch from reflector to counter because **** you."

And so on. Why is it fair for these characters to be able to change to be better suited for matchups when others can only either play better or learn a completely different character?

Miis in general are also a logistical nightmare.

 

[Routa]

Doesn't winner of the set may choose who to change before the looser?

X (Mii Swordfighter) vs Y (Samus)
X wins
X may change the Swordfighters set or change the character
After possible change Y may change to Marth if he wants to

 

[DunnoBro]

Hardly any balanced to the customs. Just alterations.

I don't see how charge speed increases, endlag reductions, damage increase/decreases, and stupid crap like grenade winning every clash being removed can be anything but pretty significant balances though I kind of doubt you are actually aware of what was/wasn't changed enough to speak on such things to be honest.

 

[CHOMPY]

@ Antonykun Uncle Bob is my Uncle.

I feel Swordfighter has a lot of potential to be a low-high tier character, but not any higher. Swordfighters combo game is really good, range is decent, their recovery can be godlike, and great kill power with the smash attacks. Only problem is Swordfighter has no kill setups, so its all based on reads.

Swordfighter can actually counter Luigi because you can use the whirlwinds to blow out his fireballs. Uncle Bob's dtilt comes out really quick, forcing any grab heavy Luigi players to think twice before approaching. Once you get Luigi off stage, you can gimp Luigi with your down air. However, if you ledge trump Luigi, most likely he will regrab the ledge and you can use the stones scavenger (up b) to spike to Luigi down to his doom.

Against projectile characters or characters with longer range, Swordfighter would definitely lose in that matchup. Fighting against Swordfighter is like fighting against Wario, you just have to outspace them.

 

[Teshie U]

I don't see how charge speed increases, endlag reductions, damage increase/decreases, and stupid crap like grenade winning every clash being removed can be anything but pretty significant balances though I kind of doubt you are actually aware of what was/wasn't changed enough to speak on such things to be honest.

Nice condescension there, its always impressive when someone takes a step back from a discussion to talk down to someone.

Grenades weren't broken, none of the really dumb stuff was fixed like Diddy's Uair was. When it comes to customs (miis included), its overwhelmingly clear that they have only done bugfixes and almost completely random buffs/nerfs.

 

[thehard]

Nice condescension there, its always impressive when someone takes a step back from a discussion to talk down to someone.

Grenades weren't broken, none of the really dumb stuff was fixed like Diddy's Uair was. When it comes to customs (miis included), its overwhelmingly clear that they have only done bugfixes and almost completely random buffs/nerfs.

???

Miis have nothing comparable to old u-air, and that doesn't even matter. Nor does it matter that you perceive Mii changes as random. Their specials are being actively balanced. Don't be ignorant.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think megaman will soon be high tier and with some buffs he can make it to top tier

You realize this is ryus worst match-up right?

 

[Routa]

In my opinion not allowing Miis to use their "custom moves" (or choose their Height and Weight) is like out tight banning Wario's Waft or G&W Judge. By not allowing them to use their customise is a out right crime against character design. What makes Wario different from others? His Waft. What makes G&W different from others? Bucket and Judge. What makes Marth different from others? Tipper. Etc..

 

[Antonykun]

You realize this is ryus worst match-up right?

being ryu's worst matchup probably means some sense of viability in the future tho

 

[DunnoBro]

Nice condescension there, its always impressive when someone takes a step back from a discussion to talk down to someone.

It's not condescension, I just honestly don't believe you are actually completely aware of what was changed when you say stuff like this.

none of the really dumb stuff was fixed

Does the one-inch punch not ring any bells?

Regardless, you are free to PROVE me wrong by actually citing the changes and proving how random they are instead of just claiming they don't exist/matter.

 

[CHOMPY]

Thats like saying Ryu's worst matchup would be Rosalina. If Ryu can bait out her aerials, he can go in and combo her into oblivion. Also, Ryu can also land kills much earlier with his Shoryuken (Up B) that Rosalina can, due to how light she is and Ryu being heavy as Snake is back in Brawl.

 

[san.]

Doesn't winner of the set may choose who to change before the looser?

X (Mii Swordfighter) vs Y (Samus)
X wins
X may change the Swordfighters set or change the character
After possible change Y may change to Marth if he wants to

Don't expect rule benders to understand current rules and why they are traditionally in place.

Swordfighter and Gunner are screwed if they use their specialized downBs against characters they aren't good against. It's also difficult to learn the special moves when you're sacrificing other good ones. You *can replace bomb drop and missile for instance, but it's quite difficult to master over using other characters. Yes, using other characters is easier than mastering multiple specials for the most part. If one loses to a Mii first round, the Mii player gets counterpicked just fine.

 

[meleebrawler]

You realize this is ryus worst match-up right?

This isn't sarcasm, is it? Cuz if it isn't, man the irony. Didn't take too kindly to being cut from MvC now did he?

 

[Emblem Lord]

This isn't sarcasm, is it? Cuz if it isn't, man the irony. Didn't take too kindly to being cut from MvC now did he?

Look at the match and tell me if im being sarcastic.

 

[Planty]

Thats like saying Ryu's worst matchup would be Rosalina. If Ryu can bait out her aerials, he can go in and combo her into oblivion. Also, Ryu can also land kills much earlier with his Shoryuken (Up B) that Rosalina can, due to how light she is and Ryu being heavy as Snake is back in Brawl.

I'm sorry, but... WTF are you talking about??? How do you get from somebody saying that Megaman is Ryu's worst matchup, to talking about Rosalina? I don't see the connection at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm sorry, but... WTF are you talking about??? How do you get from somebody saying that Megaman is Ryu's worst matchup, to talking about Rosalina? I don't see the connection at all.

Thanks for getting my back bruh.

I was dumbfounded for a moment.

 

[san.]

Nice condescension there, its always impressive when someone takes a step back from a discussion to talk down to someone.

Grenades weren't broken, none of the really dumb stuff was fixed like Diddy's Uair was. When it comes to customs (miis included), its overwhelmingly clear that they have only done bugfixes and almost completely random buffs/nerfs.

It's pretty clear to me that you haven't really used the Mii characters.

Swordfighter:
Shuriken of Light damage increase is much appreciated. The stun distance also seems to be shortened. Great change.
Neutral B 3 combos all hits into the last one, a poor design trait that was plaguing the move for a long time.

SideB1 doesn't slip offstage. Great change and aids his recovery.
Slash launcher's startup was reduced 17->13. Great change, making it a faster type of quick draw attack, giving it its own niche in neutral rather than a recovery move.
Chakram's endlag reduction of 10 frames helps it combo and control space much better. Its weakness to shield is now balanced.

upB2's distance has increased, making it balanced with the other moves instead of completely useless.

Reflector's endlag was reduced by 2, making it closer to Mario's. It's only slightly laggier than Mario's while having varying reach values depending on the Mii size now.

Gunner:
Grenade exploding on everything was dumb. I knew that the move needed nerfing, and I definitely like this over other things they could have done. Now, it's still a potent shield buster. I just think that it needs slightly less endlag now, but it's still very good.

Charge shot's 6 end lag decrease was welcome. It's mostly good for damage and comboing rather than killing now. You can use it more since it's safer to throw out.

Fox laser damage increase was a welcome change. It's actually usable if you just want the occasional chip damage on campy characters.

Missile's 10 endlag decrease was a great fix. Gunner was sorely lacking in good long range projectiles, and missile is now a pretty good low commitment move and combo starter.

upB1's hitbox angle change was great. Before, it would save opponents and now it can gimp well.

Cannon uppercut's knockback increase was a great change. Before, it was barely stronger than up smash. Now, it's a pretty solid tool for quicker kills, and now you have more of a choice and sacrifice compared to other moves.

Psi magnet's end lag seemed to have been reduced along with Ness' (can't exactly confirm) which is nice.

Gunner still has some underpowered specials such as Neutral B 2, side B 1 and 2, upB 3, and downB 1, but the changes they have implemented were all great.


This is not really criticizing you, but just pointing out that the changes to Mii's specials are as valid as any other character's changes to their defaults.