VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Nintendude]

ICs also probably have a better matchup against Jigglypuff (which imo is a bad matchup for Marth at top level), for what it's worth.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i'm not worried about that matchup though..too much mahone exp. It's mainly falco's lasers..i get sick of only 1-2 stocking someone much much worse than me because i haven't played much in the last week and can't perfectly move around and through the lasers...going over the lasers would probably result in much more consistent results. However, armada learned a specific char for just one matchup really fast, and I think maybe that is more reasonable than trying to use peach on dreamland in every matchup. lately i have sheiks to practice against so it's not impossible for me to learn that with ICs either.

i have a question but i'll post it in the ICs board where it belongs

 

[Nintendude]

ICs are really hard to use as a secondary without putting a ton of time in, even if it's just for one specific matchup, but all the power to you if you can do it successfully. I'd be concerned about counterpick wars though, because if you want to go ICs vs. Sheik you have to be prepared for pocket Foxes and Peaches, both of which require a ton of experience to overcome.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Why not try Puff, KP?

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, ICs are horrendous for actual counterpick wars, but decent enough to just play on your counterpick only.

yeah, I dunno. Puff seems like a better idea than ICs when I think about it. ICs are just too hard.

But really it comes down to do i "want a super strong counterpick that I can only use on my counterpick stages" or do I "want an actual secondary to use for the entire set as opposed to trying marth"

not to mention I'm extra conflicted cause I actually like peach even though I don't think she is that great vs sheik, she is really fun. The matchup doesn't feel uneven either. But it doesn't have the same feeling of advantage that i feel when i play ICs vs sheik

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is amazing vs Peach IMO FWIW

 

[Wake]

Sheik is really really good against Peach, in my opinion. I dunno how good Redd's Sheik is, but I think KP should try playing a better one and then seeing what he thinks. I'm pretty curious if he'd change his opinion or not.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik vs Peach? TBH most Sheiks don't know what uair is, much less how to use it. When they don't know about uair, I can see Sheik Peach being close to 50-50 or 55-45 for Sheik (since being limited in your punish really does make a difference since Sheik has a huge dependency on punishment to be effective at high level). If they do know about how insane uair is, it's closer to 60-40 because Peach has no real way down without her float and even with it she's still at a big disadvantage because Sheik's bair is stupid. Add in how hard Sheik punishes Peach's turnips and such? Bad MU. Sheik can outrange her combo break efforts easily, shield grab some of them, and when she wins an exchange like this she does tons of damage and can even threaten with a KO at the right percents. She also has needles so pulling turnips can be hard and waiting offstage can be dangerous. She can also maneuver platforms well, so cornering her can be tough without a good guess or super pro zoning. It's so taxing for Peach to encroach Sheik's space IMO but Sheik's speed and range lets her flirt with Peach in a really simple yet effective way.

I honestly think Marth is easier. And maybe even Puff too. Puff is just lame and dumb. Marth would be harder if throw > f-smash KO was 100% guaranteed at 100%+ and not DI dependent. His lack of a real kill move sucks. He also gets comboed hard sometimes despite low stun because his combo break options suck. I also feel he's more gimpable (but harder to edgeguard for the KO overall). His arcs are a problem vs turnips & dash attack but Sheik has sex kicks and a platform game and an unfair shield vs d-smash so her character's natural answers in the same positions are better than Marth's. If she couldn't be d-tilted > death combo'd legitimately at whatever percent range this would be a super lopsided MU instead of just a lopsided one.

...In before Armada proves me wrong at APEX. Although I wouldn't mind that; it would mean I got to play him in the tourney.

I maintain Fox is easier too. He dies in one hit very easily and his approach plays into Peach's strengths. Lame camping is lame but I feel if you hit him you can flush a minute of his work down the drain so it's just annoying. He also doesn't tack as much damage on you by doing it, so he's forgoing a lot of his little combat & combo advantages that feed off his first hit game. Attrition is hard when you're super frail. Maybe I just haven't played leffen though. I think I'd have a good shot with Peach vs Kels's Fox in a bo5 set (MBR recommended ruleset ofc) if I played absolutely perfectly although I dunno if I'd win... Kels is still legit and my anti-camping stuff is mostly theory and only lightly tested.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Kk that is a super long post but are u saying sheik is harder for peach then marth, fox, and jiggs? If so let me just say lol harder then fox and jiggs. Also let me say i respectfully disagree on all three accounts and i dont personally find sheik that bad for peach.

 

[Wake]

I won't comment on Jiggs because of how little I get the chance to play a Jiggs.

I think Sheik is probably a bit easier than Fox though. Campy Fox scares me lol, but I see what you're saying KK concerning campy Fox, and that might be right. I wish I had more top level experience in these MUs.

I definitely think Marth is a better MU than Sheik though.

 

[Prince_Abu]

botom line peach is broken and down smash is dumb

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i think upair wrecks sheiks and that the sheiks i'm playing need to use it more. ever since that day i asked you about combo trees on peach with sheik I experimented with upair and got sooo much damage but most of the sheiks use subpar stuff all of the time. The thing is, when I watch amsah vs armada, amsah cannot get grabs safely. even if peach is going to eat 50% to get down, it's so hard for sheik to land that grab at high level.

but we'll see.

 

[Wake]

botom line peach is broken and down smash is dumb

You won the set. Don't be mad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kk that is a super long post but are u saying sheik is harder for peach then marth, fox, and jiggs? If so let me just say lol harder then fox and jiggs. Also let me say i respectfully disagree on all three accounts and i dont personally find sheik that bad for peach.

I have a lot of Puff experience. I feel I have a good grasp and aside from rest deficits I don't feel Puff has any sort of **** advantage. Just IMO; you can disagree. I think you have to force her onto the ground, but there are subtle ways to draw her there. Don't feel like explaining all of them though. Also, DoH is correct in that f-smash is good but just for the disjoint and low lag. Not the leanback; Puff can play around that so easily since she aims at Peach's head kind of naturally.

I think Sheik is harder at top level but Marth is harder until then. Mostly because you can't be good vs Sheik's throw > auto-death and her grab is so consistent. By finishing with fair you deny recovery height which also really hurts since that's one of Peach's best traits. It's harder to stagger Sheik too since she's good at fighting out of the edge and such. Marth's weaknesses in these spots hurts him at top level IMHO. She also has needles so trying to win by turtling up doesn't work; Sheik wins the attrition war so long as you shoot her for turnip plucks.

Fox is just fragile vs a character who can death-touch him with her entire low percent move pool if she hits follows correctly. He's just annoying. Her crouch, shield, and SDI > d-smash shuts down a lot of his approaches. There's more room to be good vs Fox's stuff, so you can cheat death a lot or even just deny him a combo. Her hits out of those situations can be ridiculous too.

I dunno. I feel Sheik can't be janked as hard as the others. That sucks when janking people a la death combos and such is your best trait.

 

[baka4moé]

obligatory sheik rage post here. i agree with everything KK said about sheik. I have so much trouble getting into sheik's space, and i feel sheik can easily weave in and out, and punish harder, making comebacks near impossible if sheik plays safe (as opposed to marth and fox). turnips suck against sheik too imo. what do we do...

im also a little bummed that there really arent any recent high level sheik/peach vids lately. id very much like to see how armada handles a good NTSC sheik, as the last one i recall i ever saw was against amsah at P4.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know. I wanted to MM Vwins and record it but Vwins didn't want to MM at Impulse.

I guess most recent thing in NTSC would be me vs MacD from APEX.

I wish my friendlies with Bladewise were recorded at the pre-Rule 6 smashfest. He did terribly (he's got a Sheik weakness IMO) but I think it would have been helpful for examining what he needs to work on in the MU and I hit some seriously swag combos. So he gets a way to improve in the MU and I get more CV footage. Everyone wins

Also MM me you beaches. Fox Peach MBR recommended ruleset. I have to redeem myself for my performance vs Fly. And my Fox's annihilation of Nintendude and Trail (in tournament and friendlies respectively) wasn't recorded so everyone thinks it sucks. Hanky, you down? What about you, Atma?

 

[Strong Badam]

david's fox annihilated my DK in friendlies =(

 

[KirbyKaze]

I ***** basically everyone I played at TBH2 except Fly and Mango (didn't play HBox) with whatever character I was using at the time. Oh and Rykard (or something) beat my Mario for a buck so I guess he didn't get ***** indiscriminately (I went Fox to **** him).

This game is lame and everyone sucks except like 12 people.

edit: Midwest got better though, was legit impressed with how much ground they covered in the year between the last Big House and this one. Interested in seeing how Frootloop, Hanky Panky, Little England, and some of the other newcomers to mid level smash fare vs the established crowds in the coming months.

I want to play Mango right now.

And grind vs PP's Marth to learn the MU. Ideally with Cactuar nearby to tell me my glaring errors and not so glaring errors.

I'm sad Idea is maining Falco because where will I get Puff practice...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Come to think of it, I've never seen a single video of you vs Marth, KK.

Also, I hope this doesn't mean I need a secondary vs Sheik now. D:

 

[KirbyKaze]

I used to play I.B's Marth in tournament a lot but he sucks vs Sheik and eventually fell in love with Falco so he switched mains and now it's more spacies.

So many spacies.

I guess it keeps me sharp vs them though. I don't have any complaints about this.

 

[knightpraetor]

IB was so good. i miss watching his matches. better than the US marths for sure. ah well, i think falco is the best in the game, so i can't fault him too much

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I know. I wanted to MM Vwins and record it but Vwins didn't want to MM at Impulse.

I guess most recent thing in NTSC would be me vs MacD from APEX.

I wish my friendlies with Bladewise were recorded at the pre-Rule 6 smashfest. He did terribly (he's got a Sheik weakness IMO) but I think it would have been helpful for examining what he needs to work on in the MU and I hit some seriously swag combos. So he gets a way to improve in the MU and I get more CV footage. Everyone wins

Also MM me you beaches. Fox Peach MBR recommended ruleset. I have to redeem myself for my performance vs Fly. And my Fox's annihilation of Nintendude and Trail (in tournament and friendlies respectively) wasn't recorded so everyone thinks it sucks. Hanky, you down? What about you, Atma?

why did you use your weak *** sheik against fly? i just watched that set and was quite confused....

 

[Redd]

Sheik is really really good against Peach, in my opinion. I dunno how good Redd's Sheik is, but I think KP should try playing a better one and then seeing what he thinks. I'm pretty curious if he'd change his opinion or not.

I'm so bad. HALP =(

When I play Sheik it's like...

"Sheik!!! Wat r u doing?!?! SHEIK... STAHP!"

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well kk i would like to play you at rom, but of course are skill levels are not equal so it wont prove much. But i do pretty well vs sheiks i get to play against like reno and random tourney sheiks, which is why i feel the mu is not so bad

Edit: hurricane and a tree just hit my house, but the house seems fine nothing broke as far as i can tell

 

[KirbyKaze]

IB was so good. i miss watching his matches. better than the US marths for sure. ah well, i think falco is the best in the game, so i can't fault him too much

I think in I.B's prime, there were a few American Marths (excluding M2K) that were better than him. I think Taj, PPU, and HBK were better Marths than him. But I think they were all pretty close in skill level and he was the next best one IMO.

why did you use your weak *** sheik against fly? i just watched that set and was quite confused....

Bleh. I'm not going to comment on the set. I went Sheik because she's my best character and I'm trying to not cop out so much. Partially because it's tough to switch around characters (especially tech-heavy ones like Fox) and partially because I like having confidence that my main can beat anything. I don't think ICs Sheik is that bad at all. MM me if you think I'm nuts.

I'm so bad. HALP =(

When I play Sheik it's like...

"Sheik!!! Wat r u doing?!?! SHEIK... STAHP!"

Doesn't matter because if it was serious you would use Fox.

I mean, I could tell you how to beat Peaches with Sheik but that would be boring and you'd probably prefer the MU with Fox anyway.

Well kk i would like to play you at rom, but of course are skill levels are not equal so it wont prove much. But i do pretty well vs sheiks i get to play against like reno and random tourney sheiks, which is why i feel the mu is not so bad

Edit: hurricane and a tree just hit my house, but the house seems fine nothing broke as far as i can tell

I haven't lost a set to a Peach since like Vwins at some Canadian thing eons ago. But I also haven't played Armada in tournament so...

**

 

[DoH]

I wish there were more upper level sheiks

 

[MacD]

now i gotta go to a tourney so i can beat KK..... one way or another

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hate how there's no gradient for Sheik skill anymore because everyone quit for one reason or another

I honestly think there are more upper level Peaches than Sheiks just because Tec0, Lucien, Tope, and various others dropped off the face of the earth and I'm basically all that's left as far as (mostly) solo Sheiks go

edit: McCain, you know I'd love to see you again. I miss you. I wish you'd made it to Rule 6 when I was in Cali

 

[MacD]

i wish i could have gone too. if it wasn't for family vegas trip the weekend after, and it being a 1 day sunday sucked too.

maybe one day i'll just decide to be crazy and try to move to canada and give up on life in the US or something

 

[KirbyKaze]

Canada is both awesome and terrible at the same time

It is our duality that defines us

Also beer

 

[nicaboy]

Ugh ******* don't know about my sheik!? I am gonna go to something big one day and ****ing **** ****! Kids don't know!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Please do so. I'm tired of being alone with Jason.

 

[nicaboy]

Ill try big dog. Just hold down for us for a while longer
Vanz <3 today was super funny

 

[knightpraetor]

"I think Taj, PPU, and HBK were better Marths than him. But I think they were all pretty close in skill level and he was the next best one IMO.
"

yeah, i was leaving pp, taj, m2k out of the consideration. I didn't realize PPU played in the same time period. I believed he got better after IB retried. And I don't really think HBK at his prime was better than IB. at the very least IB's vs falcon was top notch...learned several things from those sets.

austin, you really should drop the falco in serious matches. is there any matchup where you would actually play falco over fox? i think the only thing is that you don't like doing the ditto. It's weird..mahone also preferred playing falco vs fox and fox vs falco to playing dittos. What's with all the ditto hate

 

[Redd]

BECAUSE DITTOS ****ING SUCK. Cmon, you know this. You've quit Fox.

I used to be good at fox dittos. If I put the time in I could be again. I've NEVER been good or claimed to be good at falco dittos. I've had a lot of success vs. upper level foxes w/ falco, and that's pretty much why.

At this point I may just solely play fox.. ew, but it's what I may have to do. Oh and Sheik for hard marths cause then I can mess up more. <3

 

[knightpraetor]

and marth for FD when you feel like having an easier time vs chillin lol. You're really solid on your chaingrab for someone who never practices his marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I really enjoy the Sheik-Fox mix even if I almost never use Fox in tournament. You're already at a solid skill level; why not try it if you think you'll really enjoy it?

 

[Redd]

Cause vs. certain styles of Fox I just feel locked-down. It's interesting... I guess?

Like me vs. DJN at Zenith. I think the set is on youtube. I didn't do bad by any means but meh.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It looked like you were trying to force hits vs him too much when I glanced at it.

Pick your fights more carefully.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I can now do the CG on Falco from 21! Yay! (semi-consistently, but it's still something worthy of note for me since my CGs are awful)

But anyways, how do you guys deal with DI away in your combos? Say I upair a Falco, and he DIs it away (this almost never happens for some reason, are her combos that hard to DI?), how do I follow up? Usually, I find that I can't follow with anything, but that could be me positioning myself poorly during the first uair. It could also be that I'm hitting the wrong part of uair (there are three hitboxes, I think, one that sends straight up, one that sends 45 degrees away, and one that sends further away, if what Veril posted once is correct [Where is he, btw?]), and I just need to space my uairs better. Thoughts?

I've also been trying to figure out stage selection vs Doc, ICs, Pikachu, and Young Link. These aren't really relevant tourney threats (Doc, perhaps), but any ideas on them would be much appreciated. I have some already, but am curious for the thoughts of other Peaches.