VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Cia]

Speaking of Paris is Burning...

dayummmmm

i wish i had a red wii :<

 

[DoH]

Wait til I get my catsuit y'all

 

[Wake]

Your room is a mess.

Catsuit huh? Can DoH pull off a catsuit?

 

[DoH]

It was laundry day.

Also I only clean up for hookups

 

[john!]

sounds like ur living the dream

 

[VA]

seems like ur holding ur peen idk what's happening in that picture.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This character is fun.

I used her in pools at the last local. Marth is lame but I don't think it's that bad. Sheik is the devil though.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Now you know how it feels. >:\

I've been feeling like Marth is worse than most people think, lately. I mean, if we can't force him to swing preemptively, it seems really hard for us to hit him (turnips or otherwise), and we're stuck playing the dancing game with Marth. Then again, I'm probably just really bad at Marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

TBH vs a lot of characters Peach relies on people making errors in their movement games to get out of the footsie game and enter the zoning game. That said, it's debatable whether some of these are real errors or not. Playing ground vs Peach is hard sometimes because so little works on her so it can be tempting to jump (at which point Peach gets an item if she's safe).

I find some Marths just wait specifically for the dash attack and channel their attention into countering that move alone so float dair > nair approaches (and similar jank) sometimes work even though it's terrible. At any rate, the moral is don't dash attack if they're clearly trying to beat it and doing a decent job. Wait, be patient, maybe you can make him jump. Marth doesn't have much in close range and stages aren't infinite so there is incentive for him to do something eventually. Problem is, eventually can be a while when you're as slow as Peach.

When in doubt, shield isn't a bad thing to fall back on as long as you can DI his throws correctly with very high consistency. As dumb as it sounds, it can sometimes draw them in even though there's no threat exerted by it simply because it looks like an opening (even though it's not, not really). Marths like to grab shields. Just don't sidestep if they're waiting for it, etc.

Oh and post combo d-smash is basically the same as sidestep if they're out of d-smash's reach aside from maybe getting hitbox voodoo if they mistime a ground move. That's a fact.

 

[ShroudedOne]

A style that is based on, to some degree, the mistakes of your opponent never exactly appealed to me. Perhaps I'm playing the wrong character? Lol.

Yeah, as a general rule, I don't ever jump vs Marth, but the Marth(s) I play seem to just be interested in stopping whatever I do that's grounded (turnips, dash attack, dance, etc). So I'll play around with being in the air. Challenging her float seems to be an issue with many Marth players.

I don't quite know what sort of movements/visual cues we could throw out that'd make Marth jump. I mean, unless he's running into our downsmash endlessly and wants a change of pace, but....that Marth usually isn't an issue.

Yeah, Armada has little issue with being grabbed by Marth cause he DIs properly. If Marth starts upthrowing, getting grabbed might be an issue, but no one does this.

I think I'll start an air-based game, to get Marth accostumed to that, then switch up to grounded more when he moves to handle that. My issue seems to be that, even though being grounded vs Marth is "good," there's always a time to be in the air vs him (for some reason).

 

[KirbyKaze]

The thing about Marth is that his sword only swings certain ways and if you mistime you get hit if you're trying to beat something with it. For this reason they tend to try and center the game around grab and whatever (or they should, rather; if I'm actually talking about most Marths they're f-smashing, dash attacking, nair-approaching morons but w/e). I also think Marths generally overestimate how fast their sword actually is. Little fades in your jump or whatever can therefore be a real problem for him; if he keeps moving to position better and you attack, you hit him. If he attacks ASAP but you drift a bit further back, he whiffs and probably gets hit. This kind of system gives you room to outplay him. And if he backs off entirely, free item.

It's lame that so much of this MU is "If Marth doesn't do this perfectly then <strategy> works..." but that's the nature of losing MUs with floaty characters.

FWIW I think her edgeguarding on him is actually decent but it's obnoxiously complicated and has a bunch of little situational substrategies for whether he has float side-B or not and so forth. WD FF edge grabs are actually very useful; I'm still amazed nobody's using them except like Alan...

 

[ShroudedOne]

When you say WD FF edgeguard (which you mention so often, I've noticed), you just mean wavedash backwards off the ledge, and just fast fall to grab the ledge, right? It sounds so simple, and I always wondered why it was something people never did, if it was so easy.

There's probably room for WD FF > bair or something too, I imagine.

And thank you kindly for the Marth tips. I'll try focusing on those subtler spacing tricks and see how I fare.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they're actually bad you might be able to beat them with sidestep / d-smash / dash attack alone but I don't recommend it because it teaches you nothing.

 

[john!]

if i wait just outside of marth's side-b range when he's recovering, i can often get a hit and a kill (usually with bair).

if he doesn't swing at you, you bair him, and if he swings at you, you sit out of range and bair him during the lag.

i have never had much trouble edgeguarding marth. it's the neutral position that makes this matchup bad for peach

 

[DoH]

 

[MacD]

yea i'm still scared

 

[the_CAM_factor]

anyone care to throw out any advice to edge gaurd marth?
ive been failing quite a bit at it recently.

 

[Xyzz]

He's pretty predictable where he's going (there isn't much variation in what he does. Especially if he doesn't have his DJ available, his options are extremely limited (not quite CF limited, but not too far from it (to side b or not to side b, input a fast fall, exact timing of his up b).
If you hit a turnip he almost certainly dies.

also what john wrote three posts above yours is really good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

anyone care to throw out any advice to edge gaurd marth?
ive been failing quite a bit at it recently.

Jump off > sort of see where he's going > fall and hit him (with nair, 'cuz it's strong). Grab edge > fall off and hit him if he's close to you. Grab edge > fall off edge > float > hit him > hit him (the second 'hit him' is if you want to look pretty and/or swag on him and the percent is right for it).

Vs low recoveries on straight walls > toss turnips down, fall on his hand with aerials, grab the edge > float stall > release float to snap to edge when he makes the Up+B sound and then stand up (either you hog him out of it or get up next to him and semi-charge d-smash to force him back off or KO at whatever percent; you can also d-tilt this way if he's at a comboable percent or FC uair or whatever). If you can't reach the edge in time and have a veggie on hand, throw it to cover an early up+B so you can then float over to the edge and try to get you float positioning set up so you can fall on him with something (in this situation, dair is easy to hit but sometimes doesn't do anything useful; fair can be great to hit but the windup makes you kind of guess if Marth is smart; nair is like a weird middle ground).

In a general sense, sometimes when you're doing the float high > falling aerial (after his up+B finishes) strat, dair can work really well by making some janky combo. I've done dair (that hit twice > double jab > run off nair at like 60% and it gave me a kill that my other stuff probably wouldn't have but I also kind of knew he'd DI the dair up 'cuz he wanted to walljump tech into bair so it either requires a read on their DI to work or luck [sometimes when they DI down on dair, your d-smash still reaches and you slam them against the wall; if they tried to tech the dair [because they thought it wasn't a dair] then they won't be able to tech the d-smash and you get a janky, high potential situation that usually either kills them or does buttloads of damage to them). At 120%+ you can also just d-smash after the dair and it'll probably do something good unless you're on like PS or DL64.

Vs low recoveries where he can avoid turnips thrown down (so basically on FD, YS kind of) > you can just fall on his hand after his Up+B hitbox has faded with fair or bair. You can also stay just outside the range of his Up+B hitbox in float and then drift forward with dair > nair (SDIable combo, but the heavy aerials can be teched so nothing's perfect). I like the dair > nair because where he has to SDI to escape it can sometimes be followed (if he lands onstage and eats the last bit of dair > low float nair you can probably grab / d-smash and force him back off) but picking a good action after the bair or fair can sometimes do nasty things to him too if you call what he does with his tech. So pick your poison.

Vs high recoveries just outposition him with your big moves or throw vegetables at him. If you can make him swing at you wildly to try and protect himself, consider CC d-smashing him back off if you're at low percent and he's not using aimed dairs or whatever. Shielding into float nair OOS or whatever ***** dair super hard (and a lot of variations of his other aerials) so consider that too. Just basically don't run into counter or anything similarly stupid and you'll be fine.

His DJ is also small so if you can stuff it or force him to use it in a way that prevents him from moving fully forward with it (vegetables, scary Peach aerials, etc) then you can probably force him to recover low or at mid height which is really helpful. If he catches the vegetable then that sucks if he knows to drop it right away. But if he throws it or does something similarly goofy with it then you can probably just get ready to grab the edge and do the float stall > stand thing ready because he probably has to recover lowish at that point.

 

[knightpraetor]

cool, i got a lot of ideas on how to edgeguard marth from that..though honestly marth automatically dies when he's recovering from far away if peach does her job. this is a bigger benefit for when i get a knockoff at low percent to gimp him. I was having trouble dealing with the lowest recoveries so I will try some of these things

 

[KirbyKaze]

*shrug*

He's gonna be offstage with options a lot just because most of her attacks hit sideways.

I guess this could be called gimping instead but I usually (perhaps wrongly) assume gimping is done off a move with fairly high BKB at low percent (b-throws, Fox shine, etc) but Peach can't really do that vs Marth to my knowledge. And a lot of times the appropriate move will be to consolidate damage rather than attempt a risky KO just because Peach benefits from long-term thinking in a lot of situations.

Just IMO though.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, oftentimes you don't actually get a gimp you just get an extra hit or two, but still..better than what i have been doing which is throwing turnips when he can avoid them and getting nothing

 

[ShroudedOne]

I hate that Sheik can crouch our grab, by either down tilting or just crouching... >_>

It seems silly that I never knew this. It seems even sillier that it's an actual thing.

 

[Wake]

Yep. She can. Of course, crouching against Peach is kind of scary though.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

okay goddamn it
most annoying goddamn thing
i keep wasting my double jump floating -_-
if i'm falling in tumble, what are my options to float without being a ******** and double jumping?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Shake out of tumble (basically dash dance in the air until she exits the tumble state).

Congrats. You now live 50% more.

 

[Xyzz]

Untumble (wiggle control stick left and right until you leave the tumbling animation), hold down on control stick, hit x / y.
Or use toad to break the tumble and go to float from there (you don't really fall while putting out toad so you don't waste too much height that way).
Or just use the double jump and enter float at the peak... you usually want to recover high anyways, and being able to float back a little is nearly always enough mixup potential ... her dj is pretty bad in the "unexpected movement" - department anwyas.... toooooo slow

edit: however did I manage to be distracted by stuff for 20 minutes before replying... :D

 

[JamesBJames]

Shake out of tumble (basically dash dance in the air until she exits the tumble state).

Congrats. You now live 50% more.

Well, ****, I never knew you could do this. I always hit x -> down on the control stick and burn the float immediately.

Neat.

 

[Anand]

Wow, super interesting. I did some testing and if you are in tumble, hitting down > X will float but uses up your double jump, while if you aren't in tumble, hitting down > X will float while preserving your double jump.

This makes sense, given that you can cancel a double jump into a float, and you can double jump out of tumble but not float out of tumble, but it's still pretty un-intuitive, especially because the actual float initiation looks visually identical regardless of whether it was performed out of tumble.

 

[WIDL]

Omg, can't believe I didn't know this. Sounds useful.

 

[DoH]

You can also toad out of tumble to stall and not lose height. You can also float instantly out of toad

 

[Nintendude]

Tumble canceling is one of the most underutilized maneuvers in this game, especially given how easy it is. Less applicable with Peach, but it can be a really good mindgame near the ground. The opponent thinks you will tech and prepares for that, but then you tumble cancel at the last moment, and waveland into whatever you want. A ton of people fall for that.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

well i knew about tumble cancelling, but i never thought about using it to float.

 

[Xyzz]

Guess the Yoshi players are the ones who use it the most, since they lack up b and have to do airdodges all the time instead, so they're kinda forced to really learn to use it (same way Doc players are usually better than the average players at survival DI because their ****ty recovery requires them to unless they want to die each time they get thrown off stage :D).

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I hold jump when i get hit and then shake out
Shaking out is good if you don't have a double jump and you need to position your float height when recovering, because I float ASAP I often do it at a useless time and then have the challenge of coming down from above.
Also, drop off the ledge-> bair/ sh off bair is really ****ing good against marth
i like doing it into dj -> float wherever their up b's going/starting-> bair again -> hopefully live

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I hope everyone here is voting for melee at evo.

Also i am surprised at how many people haven't been tumble canceling or didnt know about it, its kinda awesome

 

[ShroudedOne]

Recovering as Peach gets harder and harder every day. Every bit helps.

Coming off the ledge is almost impossible against a player with a brain. I had to like, do things I'd never done before today, just to confuse him. And they were all bad options. D:

 

[knightpraetor]

"I hate that Sheik can crouch our grab, by either down tilting or just crouching... >_>"

yeah interesting weird fact, you lose like 3 millimeters of grab range vs sheik as marth when she's crouching probably cause the hitbox for the grab is circular and only the bottom portion can reach her...it makes her harder to space

tried peach once vs redd's sheik...did about as well as I do with marth..no real difference, but I prefer dying to stuff I recognize rather than getting embarrassed cause I didn't recover after getting hit by dthrow combo hit hit needles...just wasn't expecting the needles. No one else i had played had ever kept a full store of needles and used it after hitting me offstage

 

[crush]

hi james
hi jaiye

nighpraetor: side b intto the needles then sdi them towards the stage so they make you face away from the stage then you can dj bair or float bair or watever

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i'll try that....i swear the real reason i was surprised by the needles is i thought he would go for another A button move. Still peach is fun. Getting better at her. Still can't decide whether IC or peach makes a better secondary for marth.

Peach in best of 5 for dreamland is really nice. Peach for vs falco if i can't do anti-laser is also nice. But in the end, ICs still have by far the best matchup on sheik, marth's main problem