Usage Based "Tier" Considerations

[Xygonn]

Using the statistics on the character usage and rank list I decided I would make a list comparing the (16) and the (1) usage statistics. I assumed (16) meant top 16 and 1 meant wins the whole thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case because the sum of (16) over the sum of (1) is 8.56 which doesn't make any sense. (Notably sum of 8 over sum of 1 is 5.94, so I don't have much confidence in the numbers). All data was pulled from the SWF "rankings" tab today.

But who really cares, let's just assume they have some sort of meaning. Ok, to get into the (16 bracket) we'll assume you can overcome scrubs with any character using skill. So we'll assume everyone in the to 16 is approximately of equal skill. This means the prevalence in the top 16 really has to do with popularity, not how good the character is. To win the tournament out of the top 16 could mean you just have an edge from your "better" character. Let's look at the results (initial sort is based on the "all" use number)

Character | All | Top 16 | Champ 1 | Use Ratio 16/All | Win Ratio 1st/16
Diddy Kong | 783 | 682 | 140 | 0.871009 | 0.205279
Sheik | 557 | 465 | 52 | 0.834829 | 0.111828
Captain Falcon | 442 | 351 | 30 | 0.794118 | 0.08547
Ness | 347 | 275 | 29 | 0.792507 | 0.105455
Sonic | 295 | 252 | 47 | 0.854237 | 0.186508
Mario | 293 | 238 | 32 | 0.812287 | 0.134454
Yoshi | 286 | 214 | 13 | 0.748252 | 0.060748
Fox | 252 | 195 | 29 | 0.77381 | 0.148718
Zero Suit Samus | 245 | 194 | 24 | 0.791837 | 0.123711
Luigi | 238 | 193 | 32 | 0.810924 | 0.165803
Rosalina | 214 | 179 | 26 | 0.836449 | 0.145251
Pikachu | 212 | 162 | 11 | 0.764151 | 0.067901
R.O.B | 202 | 164 | 14 | 0.811881 | 0.085366
Villager | 179 | 137 | 14 | 0.765363 | 0.10219
Megaman | 177 | 132 | 10 | 0.745763 | 0.075758
Little Mac | 173 | 141 | 21 | 0.815029 | 0.148936
Shulk | 172 | 131 | 16 | 0.761628 | 0.122137
Greninja | 151 | 119 | 10 | 0.788079 | 0.084034
Link | 151 | 111 | 4 | 0.735099 | 0.036036
Bowser | 150 | 116 | 7 | 0.773333 | 0.060345
King Dedede | 141 | 118 | 7 | 0.836879 | 0.059322
Kirby | 138 | 114 | 5 | 0.826087 | 0.04386
Bowser Jr. | 135 | 95 | 9 | 0.703704 | 0.094737
Donkey Kong | 135 | 112 | 6 | 0.82963 | 0.053571
Ganondorf | 132 | 110 | 13 | 0.833333 | 0.118182
Pikmin & Olimar | 121 | 106 | 20 | 0.876033 | 0.188679
Toon Link | 121 | 98 | 5 | 0.809917 | 0.05102
Lucario | 109 | 84 | 9 | 0.770642 | 0.107143
Robin | 108 | 98 | 19 | 0.907407 | 0.193878
Ike | 108 | 78 | 9 | 0.722222 | 0.115385
Peach | 103 | 74 | 2 | 0.718447 | 0.027027
Jigglypuff | 96 | 71 | 6 | 0.739583 | 0.084507
Marth | 93 | 75 | 8 | 0.806452 | 0.106667
Wario | 92 | 61 | 7 | 0.663043 | 0.114754
Duck Hunt | 87 | 66 | 4 | 0.758621 | 0.060606
Palutena | 85 | 67 | 7 | 0.788235 | 0.104478
Falco | 82 | 58 | 3 | 0.707317 | 0.051724
Meta Knight | 75 | 61 | 10 | 0.813333 | 0.163934
Lucina | 73 | 51 | 10 | 0.69863 | 0.196078
Wii Fit Trainer | 73 | 60 | 4 | 0.821918 | 0.066667
Charizard | 72 | 55 | 1 | 0.763889 | 0.018182
Samus | 67 | 53 | 1 | 0.791045 | 0.018868
Dark Pit | 66 | 49 | 9 | 0.742424 | 0.183673
Pit | 60 | 45 | 3 | 0.75 | 0.066667
Dr. Mario | 56 | 49 | 6 | 0.875 | 0.122449
Pac-Man | 54 | 39 | 5 | 0.722222 | 0.128205
Zelda | 46 | 38 | 2 | 0.826087 | 0.052632
Mr. Game & Watch | 45 | 29 | 1 | 0.644444 | 0.034483
Mii Brawler | 23 | 21 | 4 | 0.913043 | 0.190476
Mii Gunner | 7 | 3 | 0 | 0.428571 | 0
Mii Swordfighter | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0

Diddy is ranked first in both use and 1st/16 fraction. This is kinda nice in that at least it passes the sniff test that diddy should be top tier.

What stands out toward the top (sort 1st/16): Lucina, Metaknight, Robin, Dark Pit, Little Mac. Maybe it's just a matter of who is reporting what tournaments but these characters seem to be winning with a high fraction when they reach the top 16 despite being considered bottom tier. Extremely unusual may be the difference between Pit (generally considered a bit better) and Dark Pit (much better reported tournament results). The expected value for a "mid tier" is 0.116 based on the data. Ganon and above meet that mark. Ike and below miss the mark.

What stands out toward the bottom: Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Ness, and Pikachu do pretty badly upon hitting the top 16 despite being considered top tier. Sheik is way underperforming compared to her perceived tier same goes for Peach and Rosalina. These characters are basically overrated and are just very popular.

Y'all are aparently sleeping hard on Lucina.

I have made another table with most recent top 16 and 1st place results. I added typical statistical confidence intervals. The sample size and 0 results for mii gunner make that entry basically meaningless. The rest make some sense

Character | 16 | 1 | 1st out of 16 | 5th Percentile | 95th Percentile
Mii Brawler| 56| 18 | 0.321428571 | 0.218766 | 0.383837
Robin| 141| 28 | 0.19858156 | 0.143316 | 0.232178
Diddy Kong| 1085| 214 | 0.197235023 | 0.177363 | 0.209315
Dark Pit| 79| 14 | 0.17721519 | 0.106543 | 0.220177
Luigi| 429| 76 | 0.177156177 | 0.146833 | 0.19559
Mewtwo| 29| 5 | 0.172413793 | 0.057026 | 0.242558
Sonic| 443| 73 | 0.164785553 | 0.135791 | 0.182412
Little Mac| 224| 36 | 0.160714286 | 0.120348 | 0.185253
Fox| 420| 67 | 0.15952381 | 0.130133 | 0.177391
Mii Swordfighter| 13| 2 | 0.153846154 | -0.01077 | 0.253914
Meta Knight| 134| 20 | 0.149253731 | 0.098616 | 0.180037
Pikmin & Olimar| 199| 29 | 0.145728643 | 0.104584 | 0.17074
Wario| 119| 16 | 0.134453782 | 0.083011 | 0.165726
Sheik| 797| 106 | 0.132998745 | 0.113212 | 0.145027
Zero Suit Samus| 318| 39 | 0.122641509 | 0.092382 | 0.141036
Shulk| 206| 25 | 0.121359223 | 0.083933 | 0.144111
Mario| 501| 59 | 0.117764471 | 0.094075 | 0.132165
Palutena| 137| 16 | 0.116788321 | 0.071651 | 0.144228
Rosalina| 349| 40 | 0.114613181 | 0.086563 | 0.131665
Captain Falcon| 661| 74 | 0.111951589 | 0.091777 | 0.124216
Pac-Man| 72| 8 | 0.111111111 | 0.050185 | 0.148148
Lucina| 91| 10 | 0.10989011 | 0.055958 | 0.142676
Ganondorf| 190| 20 | 0.105263158 | 0.068638 | 0.127527
Dr. Mario| 77| 8 | 0.103896104 | 0.046696 | 0.138668
Lucario| 143| 14 | 0.097902098 | 0.057021 | 0.122754
Marth| 143| 14 | 0.097902098 | 0.057021 | 0.122754
Ike| 133| 13 | 0.097744361 | 0.055385 | 0.123495
Bowser Jr.| 135| 13 | 0.096296296 | 0.054531 | 0.121686
Ness| 480| 45 | 0.09375 | 0.071865 | 0.107054
Greninja| 209| 18 | 0.086124402 | 0.054202 | 0.10553
Villager| 264| 21 | 0.079545455 | 0.05215 | 0.096199
Duck Hunt| 114| 9 | 0.078947368 | 0.037402 | 0.104203
Kirby| 216| 16 | 0.074074074 | 0.044761 | 0.091894
R.O.B| 314| 23 | 0.073248408 | 0.049061 | 0.087952
Falco| 85| 6 | 0.070588235 | 0.024887 | 0.09837
King Dedede| 207| 14 | 0.06763285 | 0.038922 | 0.085087
Yoshi| 400| 27 | 0.0675 | 0.046865 | 0.080044
Megaman| 234| 15 | 0.064102564 | 0.037763 | 0.080115
Donkey Kong| 189| 12 | 0.063492063 | 0.034314 | 0.081229
Jigglypuff| 114| 7 | 0.061403509 | 0.024416 | 0.083888
Bowser| 180| 11 | 0.061111111 | 0.031742 | 0.078965
Mr. Game & Watch| 82| 5 | 0.06097561 | 0.017507 | 0.0874
Wii Fit Trainer| 99| 6 | 0.060606061 | 0.021158 | 0.084587
Samus| 103| 6 | 0.058252427 | 0.020288 | 0.081331
Pit| 88| 5 | 0.056818182 | 0.016224 | 0.081496
Pikachu| 319| 17 | 0.053291536 | 0.032604 | 0.065868
Toon Link| 185| 9 | 0.048648649 | 0.02263 | 0.064465
Peach| 148| 6 | 0.040540541 | 0.013872 | 0.056752
Zelda| 60| 2 | 0.033333333 | -0.00479 | 0.056507
Link| 200| 6 | 0.03 | 0.010157 | 0.042062
Charizard| 96| 2 | 0.020833333 | -0.00315 | 0.03541
Mii Gunner| 9| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0

The total 1/16 is 0.11477 (presumably because a single player counts for multiple characters).

10/20/2015 Raw data update

Character | All | Top 16 | Top 8 | Wins | Top 16/All | Top 8/All | Win/All | Top 8/Top 16 | Win/Top 16 | Win/Top 8
Bowser | 420 | 315 | 199 | 17 | 0.75 | 0.47381 | 0.040476 | 0.631746 | 0.053968 | 0.085427
Bowser Jr. | 343 | 249 | 167 | 25 | 0.725948 | 0.48688 | 0.072886 | 0.670683 | 0.100402 | 0.149701
Captain Falcon | 2045 | 1545 | 1003 | 163 | 0.755501 | 0.490465 | 0.079707 | 0.649191 | 0.105502 | 0.162512
Charizard | 304 | 238 | 173 | 6 | 0.782895 | 0.569079 | 0.019737 | 0.726891 | 0.02521 | 0.034682
Dark Pit | 185 | 134 | 87 | 20 | 0.724324 | 0.47027 | 0.108108 | 0.649254 | 0.149254 | 0.229885
Diddy Kong | 2113 | 1791 | 1385 | 359 | 0.84761 | 0.655466 | 0.169901 | 0.773311 | 0.200447 | 0.259206
Donkey Kong | 524 | 407 | 288 | 34 | 0.776718 | 0.549618 | 0.064885 | 0.707617 | 0.083538 | 0.118056
Dr. Mario | 193 | 156 | 104 | 18 | 0.80829 | 0.53886 | 0.093264 | 0.666667 | 0.115385 | 0.173077
Duck Hunt | 301 | 235 | 165 | 17 | 0.780731 | 0.548173 | 0.056478 | 0.702128 | 0.07234 | 0.10303
Falco | 368 | 240 | 136 | 20 | 0.652174 | 0.369565 | 0.054348 | 0.566667 | 0.083333 | 0.147059
Fox | 1415 | 1103 | 784 | 138 | 0.779505 | 0.554064 | 0.097527 | 0.710789 | 0.125113 | 0.17602
Ganondorf | 465 | 354 | 216 | 29 | 0.76129 | 0.464516 | 0.062366 | 0.610169 | 0.081921 | 0.134259
Greninja | 574 | 437 | 269 | 33 | 0.761324 | 0.468641 | 0.057491 | 0.615561 | 0.075515 | 0.122677
Ike | 416 | 319 | 207 | 41 | 0.766827 | 0.497596 | 0.098558 | 0.648903 | 0.128527 | 0.198068
Jigglypuff | 359 | 243 | 149 | 19 | 0.67688 | 0.415042 | 0.052925 | 0.613169 | 0.078189 | 0.127517
King Dedede | 540 | 424 | 273 | 26 | 0.785185 | 0.505556 | 0.048148 | 0.643868 | 0.061321 | 0.095238
Kirby | 575 | 438 | 299 | 30 | 0.761739 | 0.52 | 0.052174 | 0.682648 | 0.068493 | 0.100334
Link | 645 | 462 | 263 | 19 | 0.716279 | 0.407752 | 0.029457 | 0.569264 | 0.041126 | 0.072243
Little Mac | 652 | 500 | 338 | 64 | 0.766871 | 0.518405 | 0.09816 | 0.676 | 0.128 | 0.189349
Lucario | 403 | 303 | 184 | 29 | 0.751861 | 0.456576 | 0.07196 | 0.607261 | 0.09571 | 0.157609
Lucas | 152 | 110 | 71 | 7 | 0.723684 | 0.467105 | 0.046053 | 0.645455 | 0.063636 | 0.098592
Lucina | 287 | 184 | 104 | 15 | 0.641115 | 0.362369 | 0.052265 | 0.565217 | 0.081522 | 0.144231
Luigi | 1497 | 1214 | 896 | 214 | 0.810955 | 0.59853 | 0.142953 | 0.738056 | 0.176277 | 0.238839
Mario | 1641 | 1265 | 912 | 147 | 0.770871 | 0.555759 | 0.08958 | 0.720949 | 0.116206 | 0.161184
Marth | 487 | 359 | 237 | 27 | 0.737166 | 0.486653 | 0.055441 | 0.660167 | 0.075209 | 0.113924
Megaman | 683 | 505 | 335 | 36 | 0.739385 | 0.490483 | 0.052709 | 0.663366 | 0.071287 | 0.107463
Meta Knight | 495 | 397 | 284 | 65 | 0.80202 | 0.573737 | 0.131313 | 0.715365 | 0.163728 | 0.228873
Mewtwo | 101 | 69 | 42 | 9 | 0.683168 | 0.415842 | 0.089109 | 0.608696 | 0.130435 | 0.214286
Mii Brawler | 151 | 133 | 107 | 37 | 0.880795 | 0.708609 | 0.245033 | 0.804511 | 0.278195 | 0.345794
Mii Gunner | 49 | 35 | 27 | 3 | 0.714286 | 0.55102 | 0.061224 | 0.771429 | 0.085714 | 0.111111
Mii Swordfighter | 41 | 34 | 23 | 7 | 0.829268 | 0.560976 | 0.170732 | 0.676471 | 0.205882 | 0.304348
Mr. Game & Watch | 311 | 233 | 142 | 17 | 0.749196 | 0.456592 | 0.054662 | 0.609442 | 0.072961 | 0.119718
Ness | 1479 | 1115 | 775 | 91 | 0.753888 | 0.524003 | 0.061528 | 0.695067 | 0.081614 | 0.117419
Pac-Man | 295 | 211 | 120 | 17 | 0.715254 | 0.40678 | 0.057627 | 0.56872 | 0.080569 | 0.141667
Palutena | 359 | 293 | 200 | 26 | 0.816156 | 0.557103 | 0.072423 | 0.682594 | 0.088737 | 0.13
Peach | 554 | 378 | 234 | 20 | 0.68231 | 0.422383 | 0.036101 | 0.619048 | 0.05291 | 0.08547
Pikachu | 1071 | 772 | 505 | 41 | 0.720822 | 0.471522 | 0.038282 | 0.654145 | 0.053109 | 0.081188
Pikmin & Olimar | 478 | 414 | 302 | 44 | 0.866109 | 0.631799 | 0.09205 | 0.729469 | 0.10628 | 0.145695
Pit | 355 | 258 | 167 | 21 | 0.726761 | 0.470423 | 0.059155 | 0.647287 | 0.081395 | 0.125749
R.O.B | 897 | 710 | 471 | 75 | 0.791527 | 0.525084 | 0.083612 | 0.66338 | 0.105634 | 0.159236
Robin | 329 | 263 | 182 | 37 | 0.799392 | 0.553191 | 0.112462 | 0.692015 | 0.140684 | 0.203297
Rosalina | 1093 | 842 | 589 | 99 | 0.770357 | 0.538884 | 0.090576 | 0.699525 | 0.117577 | 0.168081
Roy | 309 | 205 | 130 | 15 | 0.66343 | 0.420712 | 0.048544 | 0.634146 | 0.073171 | 0.115385
Ryu | 164 | 114 | 84 | 12 | 0.695122 | 0.512195 | 0.073171 | 0.736842 | 0.105263 | 0.142857
Samus | 295 | 217 | 134 | 14 | 0.735593 | 0.454237 | 0.047458 | 0.617512 | 0.064516 | 0.104478
Sheik | 2230 | 1816 | 1302 | 268 | 0.81435 | 0.583857 | 0.120179 | 0.71696 | 0.147577 | 0.205837
Shulk | 527 | 380 | 233 | 30 | 0.721063 | 0.442125 | 0.056926 | 0.613158 | 0.078947 | 0.128755
Sonic | 1114 | 935 | 719 | 139 | 0.839318 | 0.645422 | 0.124776 | 0.768984 | 0.148663 | 0.193324
Toon Link | 537 | 401 | 251 | 30 | 0.746741 | 0.467412 | 0.055866 | 0.625935 | 0.074813 | 0.119522
Villager | 818 | 594 | 375 | 46 | 0.726161 | 0.458435 | 0.056235 | 0.631313 | 0.077441 | 0.122667
Wario | 440 | 330 | 227 | 40 | 0.75 | 0.515909 | 0.090909 | 0.687879 | 0.121212 | 0.176211
Wii Fit Trainer | 280 | 216 | 139 | 21 | 0.771429 | 0.496429 | 0.075 | 0.643519 | 0.097222 | 0.151079
Yoshi | 1348 | 989 | 627 | 81 | 0.73368 | 0.465134 | 0.060089 | 0.633974 | 0.081901 | 0.129187
Zelda | 195 | 131 | 80 | 5 | 0.671795 | 0.410256 | 0.025641 | 0.610687 | 0.038168 | 0.0625
Zero Suit Samus | 1066 | 803 | 537 | 98 | 0.753283 | 0.503752 | 0.091932 | 0.668742 | 0.122042 | 0.182495

Win/All Tier list

 

[LancerStaff]

Could you combine Pit and Dark Pit's data? Because they're kinda samey.

 

[MapleWooD]

Cool stuff, funny seeing Ganondorf so high up

 

[Actilide]

Good to see people harnessing the power of Mac.

 

[Xygonn]

Could you combine Pit and Dark Pit's data? Because they're kinda samey.

Well the math is easy enough. 12/94=0.127 or just above ZSS, just below Pac-man.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

Could you combine Pit and Dark Pit's data? Because they're kinda samey.

But no? They aren't the same character, if it was Captain Falcon and Rosalina nobody would ask to do that.

 

[LancerStaff]

But no? They aren't the same character, if it was Captain Falcon and Rosalina nobody would ask to do that.

Dark Pit is basically Pit with a few custom moves and a weaker Ftilt with no advantages. We use him as a counterpick in the few matchups where he's better/equal to Pit and to cheese out more slots on the CMP. When I say all but three moves are exactly the same, I mean it. We don't separate the different custom sets in the data, do we?

 

[Dark Dr. Pink-Gold Pit Jr]

I'm very confused. Can someone explain what is happening here in simpler terms?

 

[Xygonn]

I'm very confused. Can someone explain what is happening here in simpler terms?

Smash boards has a character tab under rankings. I took the data from there. I took the 16 tab which is basically the popularity of the character. Then I took the 1 tab which is the number of wins. I divided the wins by top 16 to see how effective each character is upon reaching the top 16. The first post gives the caveat that the top 16 seems more like a top 8 and the data may be unreliable.

 

[Saturnity]

Ok, to get into the (16 bracket) we'll assume you can overcome scrubs with any character using skill. So we'll assume everyone in the to 16 is approximately of equal skill. This means the prevalence in the top 16 really has to do with popularity, not how good the character is. To win the tournament out of the top 16 could mean you just have an edge from your "better" character.

You're making an awful lot of strange assumptions. Making both top 16 and #1 in a tournament involves everything you listed but you're assuming top 16 is just skill and #1/16 is just character choice?

Also, how big are these tournaments you're pulling data from, and what players are actually supplying all the #1s? Is it just a few people with all the Lucina and Robin wins? Does anyone know how the Lucina/Diddy and Robin/Diddy matchups are? Are they winning vs Diddy more than other characters even if it's still unfavorable?

Diddy seems like the elephant in the room since he has wayy more wins than everyone else. He might be messing with the win rates.

 

[Xygonn]

You're making an awful lot of strange assumptions. Making both top 16 and #1 in a tournament involves everything you listed but you're assuming top 16 is just skill and #1/16 is just character choice?

Also, how big are these tournaments you're pulling data from, and what players are actually supplying all the #1s? Is it just a few people with all the Lucina and Robin wins? Does anyone know how the Lucina/Diddy and Robin/Diddy matchups are? Are they winning vs Diddy more than other characters even if it's still unfavorable?

Diddy seems like the elephant in the room since he has wayy more wins than everyone else. He might be messing with the win rates.

Of course the assumptions aren't perfect but I do think skill matters more for teaching top 16 and that character value matters more at the top 16 skill level. I'm sure a better model could be made with more work but this is illustrative none the less even if you reject the results for low use characters.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Wow, I'm surprised to see Captain Falcon so low in usage.
Good to see there's a healthy amount of ROB representation. Also, curious to see Dark Pit with such a higher 1st/16 ratio than Pit.

 

[Xygonn]

Updated top post.

 

[ChikoLad]

A "Usage-Based" Tier List kinda has why it isn't that much of an accurate assessment of the character's potency in the name. Unless all you were trying to show is how often characters are used, which is fine.

 

[Xygonn]

A "Usage-Based" Tier List kinda has why it isn't that much of an accurate assessment of the character's potency in the name. Unless all you were trying to show is how often characters are used, which is fine.

I'm trying to show how often characters win compared to how often they are used. Most tier lists more closely reflect the total usage of characters in tournaments than they do the total number of tournament wins by each character.

Even looking at total wins, I'm trying to control for character popularity. Robin has more tournament wins (according to the data) than yoshi, but is played much less often.

 

[ChikoLad]

But at the end of the day, how often a character is used/wins does not necessarily reflect the potential of the actual characters, which is what I'm getting at. That's more important than how often people use them/win with them. Sometimes a perfectly good character doesn't have amazing players backing them.

 

[qwfwfq]

But at the end of the day, how often a character is used/wins does not necessarily reflect the potential of the actual characters, which is what I'm getting at. That's more important than how often people use them/win with them. Sometimes a perfectly good character doesn't have amazing players backing them.

Abadango is lethal with Pacman & Wario.

 

[ChikoLad]

Abadango is lethal with Pacman & Wario.

Well I never stated otherwise...but yeah, I agree.

My point is that just in general, some characters are not being used to their fullest in tournaments all of the time, and might not win as much. It's not the best example, but despite doing really well and being one of the best and most dedicated Rosalina players, Dabuz really doesn't show off Rosalina's full potential, as he plays her in a very specific, defensive way, and doesn't really send Luma out as a separate entity all that much. He is also the only truly popular player of her right now, but other players are rising and starting to show things a little differently. However, Dabuz has given people the impression Rosalina is defensive and campy, even though she really isn't. That happens to be a frowned upon archetype in the Smash community (who prefer rushdown guys like Sheik), so even if the character is one of the best in the game, people aren't going to use her as much due to the negative stigma she has. There's also the fact that even if you want to learn all of the other ways she can play, it takes more dedication, she's not exactly a character that's easy to use, so that turns people off.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

It's quite sad to see Charizard so underused. I don't play as it so often, but it has some hidden powers.

 

[qwfwfq]

Wasn't arguing. Just stating

Well I never stated otherwise...but yeah, I agree.

My point is that just in general, some characters are not being used to their fullest in tournaments all of the time, and might not win as much. It's not the best example, but despite doing really well and being one of the best and most dedicated Rosalina players, Dabuz really doesn't show off Rosalina's full potential, as he plays her in a very specific, defensive way, and doesn't really send Luma out as a separate entity all that much. He is also the only truly popular player of her right now, but other players are rising and starting to show things a little differently. However, Dabuz has given people the impression Rosalina is defensive and campy, even though she really isn't. That happens to be a frowned upon archetype in the Smash community (who prefer rushdown guys like Sheik), so even if the character is one of the best in the game, people aren't going to use her as much due to the negative stigma she has. There's also the fact that even if you want to learn all of the other ways she can play, it takes more dedication, she's not exactly a character that's easy to use, so that turns people off.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby has so many top 16s, but no 1sts. Meaning he probably loses more to top tiers than I think.

 

[Foster J.]

I'm surprised Peach wasn't higher up, though I guess there aren't a lot of high level Peach players in the US or EU at this point in time though... so we'll have to wait a bit before we see someone infinite a dude to death... soon™¨

So those Dark Pit games must be Nairo at work I presume?

 

[icraq]

A "Usage-Based" Tier List kinda has why it isn't that much of an accurate assessment of the character's potency in the name. Unless all you were trying to show is how often characters are used, which is fine.

i personally subscribe to the thought that tier lists should be based on performance, not theory craft.

this is an interesting resource!

 

[ChikoLad]

i personally subscribe to the thought that tier lists should be based on performance, not theory craft.

this is an interesting resource!

I didn't say anything about theory craft. It's just that, basing it on usage is not properly representing HOW the character is played and what they are capable of. Furthermore, Smashboards rankings is only a small focus group, it doesn't represent the community.

A tier list based solely on player performance is a player tier list, not a character tier list. One player could be accounted for in these usage lists for a character, for example, but that player represents one way of playing. And often times, it may not be the optimal way.

Personally, I think both elements should be accounted for. But I think actual character statistics should be a more prominent factor, as they are consistent, until a patch happens. Characters can be objectively better or worse than others, and as much of that should be accounted for as possible.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

This is pretty inaccurate if we're using this as an actual Tier List. Most of it is that hardly anyone plays some of the characters, and the people who do a relatively skilled, so the rankings are skewed in their favour. The fact that Mii Swordfighter has the highest top 16 ratio is because nobody plays as them in tournaments. As well as that, if, say, the top 16 of a tournament was literally filled with sheiks, that would take away from the win ration when there was no chance of a sheik player not winning (Unless I'm understanding it wrong).
It may just be because I refuse to believe that Robin is a good character.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

Eh..Robin is a good character, but he/she requires patients to use.

This is may help get other character to be used.

 

[Xygonn]

New list is up using most recent data. There is a Win/Top16 list and a Win/All list as well as a Win/All pictorial tier list. No error bars this time because I'm lazy.

 

[Raijinken]

Usage and results are really the only valid tier considerations, though obviously those should be done on a rolling timeframe and/or separated by patch. That way, in the lack of objectivity in analysis, you can use objectivity in results to get a feel for the dominant strategies and characters.

 

[Xygonn]

Usage and results are really the only valid tier considerations, though obviously those should be done on a rolling timeframe and/or separated by patch. That way, in the lack of objectivity in analysis, you can use objectivity in results to get a feel for the dominant strategies and characters.

Yeah, I should keep better data regarding balance patches so that diddy doesn't stay so high (and other metagame changes).