Smash 3DS Update 1.0.4 Released!

[Dsull]

i actually wouldnt doubt it if they change rolling. Thats the only thing that is a uniform complaint across the board no matter who youre playing. Even characters that are bad at it (dk) can still do it effectively and safely if you know what youre doing.

If theres ANY character balances outside the rolling, i suspect it would be little mac. Honestly, remove his super armor on his smashes and he'd be fine. Its not his speed/strength alone that makes him insane, its that you have to beat his speed or he kills you anyway even if you did hit him thanks to so many super armor on FAST attacks (everyone else is slow attacks, even DK's punch has a moment where the armor doesnt exist)

 

[Terotrous]

I guess if we're making up unrealistic hopes about what we'd like to be changed I might as well join in, but I know none of these will ever actually happen.

Overall game changes:

- Rage is removed entirely. All characters receive a bit more knockback on kill moves to compensate.
- You can hold L when picking a stage to disable all hazards.
- You can no longer perform another air dodge during air dodge's IASA frames. Attacking is still possible.
- You can now opt to play as the Miis using the default character (from the artwork) rather than your own Mii. These characters can be used on For Glory.
- You can no longer turn off custom moves. They are always available in every mode, including For Glory. Equipment can still be turned off. You can enter a 4 button code on the character select screen to pick your moveset if it hasn't been created.
- While we're being super unrealistic, the timer is removed from Masterpieces so you can play the full game, lol.


Character specific changes:

- Ganon Side B can no longer be teched. Air Side B guarantees followup at certain percents, like in Project M. Up Tilt becomes the move that it is in Project M.
- Zelda Side B no longer becomes helpless and the fireball travels faster. Zelda's tilts and smashes are restored to how they were in Brawl. Phantom no longer has a deadzone right in front of Zelda.
- Charizard's aerials have better autocancel windows. The two hits of Up B now always link properly.
- Mii Swordfighter's aerials have better autocancel windows.
- Dedede Dair is reverted to Brawl. It has relatively little landing lag.
- Doctor Mario has faster run speed and aerial manuverability. Or better yet, he's removed from the game altogether and what few good moves he has are given to Mario.
- Lucina's autocancel windows become more favourable, giving her an upside over Marth.
- Dark Pit does extra damage and knockback, but runs slower and has less aerial mobility, to distinguish him from Pit.
- Ike's jab links properly again. Side B no longer becomes helpless, and Ike can cancel the dash with a jump.
- Olimar's Pikmin now have a maturity mechanic, like in Project M. Current strength is Bud, if they survive until Flower they are more powerful. His aerials no longer have ridiculous freeze frames and autocancel better. Olimar's UpB1 is replaced with Pikmin chain, which is a tether and a kill move if sweetspotted. You can no longer mash out of Olimar's grab before he can throw at low damage. Side B does more damage.
- Rosalina's attacks do less damage and knockback (Luma is unchanged). Luma now takes 20 seconds to respawn after being killed. Rosalina's UpB consumes Luma upon use, cannot be used if Luma is dead or far away.
- Sheik's weight reduced to 70 (was 85).
- Lucario's aura mechanic is removed. He functions like he does when he has 50% damage at all times. Side B no longer randomly fails against some characters.
- Robin's things also take 20 seconds to respawn. His grab is slightly faster to compensate.
- Little Mac no longer has armor on up and down smash, KO punch loses power (only kills at 60%), and now only builds meter when he does damage. However, all of his aerials have better damage and knockback. Air UpB deals significantly more damage (becoming a viable kill move) and travels farther. Basically, he becomes a much more legitimate character, closer to Mii Brawler than the gimmicky nonsense he is now.
- Also, all various bugs are fixed.


There, Smash4 totally fixed.

 

[Funkermonster]

2 months is plenty of time for really minor tweaks. It's not like they've turned the game upside on its head, I still think they left Doc's horrible grounded movement speed intact, among other things. Just little tweaks and bugfixes is all I really expect.

Minor tweaks and fixes are fine with me, but I still standby my belief that it's early to make any other changes to characters. Considering how fighting games take a long time to truly form meta games,I think a wiser decision would have been to simply wait in the long term run after like 6 months or a year and then wait for people to decide if a character needs tweaking, like Capcom does with Street Fighter 4. I'm glad they're doing patches at all, but tweaking characters in such a short time is kind of a bad sign to me on what they're going to do with it. Personally, i think I would only ask for maybe Lucina to be tweaked, if only so she'd have more differences from Marth besides size, tipper mechanic, and hit lag modifiers

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

^rosalina does not need nerfs, people just need to learn to deal with her gimmick and stop *****ing. so tired of this ****. people like ganon, mk, and falco just need buffs and tools to deal with stuff better.

While I don't think Rosalina is OP, she is definitely lacks weaknesses. Her smashes alone are already on the very powerful side, and come out quite quick. Range is average or slightly better. They also have lasting hitboxes. And this is if you get hit by her ALONE. If you get hit by both Luma and Rosalina, the power is insane. Her attacks in general also have VERY little lag. It's fine to have a strong quick move with good range and priority come out, but to also have little to no recovery?

Take for example Palutena. Her smashes are very strong, but not even as strong as Rosalina, and Palu has huge ending lag to make it more interesting. Rosalina does not.

At only 55%, Rosalina killed me with a barely charged fsmash near the edge of the stage due to me being hit by both Luma and Rosalina. I'd say that's too strong for a character whose strength should revolve around her puppet, Luma. For such a strong smash, it should come with more recovery lag, or her character overall should have significant holes in other places, places that i do not feel really exist. She can be offensive, she can zone, she can camp, she has great aerial game and though her recovery doesn't have hitboxes and thus can be gimped with good timing, her recovery already travels very far to make up. Yes she's pretty light, but heck grabs are almost nonexistant against Rosalina, which really limits the amount of things Rosalina has to look out for.

Another example: why does her dair have a lasting, disjointed hitbox? I really do not understand how this contributes to her character in an interesting way when she is a puppet character. Yes, puppet characters are good at zoning because of their puppet, and a lasting disjointed hitbox is also good for zoning and positioning, but I feel her puppet alone is enough; she does not need all these powerful qualities added to her solo attacks, or at least not all of her attacks.

For reference, look at ICs. Solo popo's fsmash was still pretty strong, but not that long ranged, shorter, and had lag. It was much more powerful with nana, but the range was still short. Rosalina's fmash and dair are examples of very strong moves that lack any interesting weaknesses, which was the core design goal of Smash 4 (and has successfully resulted in the most balanced smash game by far).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario really only needs better run speed to be good. If you gave him Mario's air mobility with Doc's Bair you'd be pushing it.

 

[Dsull]

Oh, fix the dedede gordo glitch. That has costed me a few games because it takes like 4minutes or something insane like that to reset. Thats 3-4 minutes of no gordo at all. Considering its a BIG part of his anti recovery, sykes, and anti-approach not being able to use it is huge when this bug happens. It persists through death too, which is REALLY weird

Thats the only bug i know of thats kinda gamebreaking. I dont even care about the Wario one because i see people suicide with it more than get some kind of benefit from it lol.

Rosalina is fine as she is. I'd rate her as one of the more balanced characters since shes so easy to kill once you get in there. Her strength is her defense is insane due to luma. Though i wouldnt mind a change someone suggested, increase luma HP but also increase respawn timer. Luma is easy to get rid of but you literally only get 1-2 chances before hes back.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

Rosalina has been confirmed nerfed as seen in this video

/watch?v=yjVF05k0El0 (can't post link since I don't have 10 posts T_T)

As you can see, Luma re-spawns after 13 seconds as opposed to 8 seconds in the previous patches.

 

[HiNiTe]

I'm going to go on a little mini-rant here. To all the people complaining about Rosalina, you should really stop. She is nowhere near overpowered or broken, in fact, she may not even be the best character in the game; and if she is, she wouldn't even be close to Meta Knight, who had his own damn tier above all the other characters. Everyone needs to learn how to deal with matchups, Rosalina especially. Yes, she is polarizing, and yes, you have to play differently against her. But after playing against her, she is not difficult, and you do (believe it or not) have to be knowledgeable of how to use her effectively. Rosalinas in For Glory are painfully easy to beat. None of her moves, or Luma's, need to be touched (or her roll, I can't believe someone suggested that, may as well nerf Palutena's too, which has momentum from the roll unlike Rosalina's). If anything, only the Luma respawn timer.

I spent quite a lot of time refining my gameplan against Rosalina, using Ness, with the most gimpable recovery in all of Smash Bros. and with Rosalina, who can instantly stop Ness's recovery with her down-B. But I don't complain about her, she is not problematic for me. It's up to the player, and clearly, every one must not be good at the matchup if even casuals (non-competitive players) complain about her. You don't see any of the top players, who spend their heart and soul in the game, complain about her as if she's the subject of the whole metagame... newsflash, she isn't. She has easy weaknesses and drawbacks. If your character has a bad matchup against her, get a secondary, like anyone else would and this is how it works in all Smash games. Also, she is nowhere near as present in tournaments thus far as Sheik or Diddy Kong, who show more progress as characters than she does, mostly because they're a bit faster. tl;dr get good.

Anyway, that's the end of that. As for the patch itself, I don't know what they'll change, I'm skeptical of Nintendo and Sakurai, I still think it's too early for this to happen if it's to be a somewhat big rebalancing. They really should fix some glitches if anything.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Smash 64 is the most balanced. Jousuke, the best Samus player, is also one of the best players overall.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm going to go on a little mini-rant here. To all the people complaining about Rosalina, you should really stop. She is nowhere near overpowered or broken

She's almost certainly top 2, but that's not the point. The point is that she's just poorly designed. As a puppet character, Rosalina + Luma should be extremely good if used well, but Rosalina by herself should be terrible. As it stands, Rosalina alone is still totally fine as a character and you only have to play as her for 8 seconds anyway. This allows you to do well with her even without putting any thought into how you use Luma.


This is also the reasoning behind my increase to Robin's item respawn time. As it stands, the item loss mechanic is simply trivial. It takes forever to actually consume your items, and once you do they're only gone for a few seconds anyway.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

I agree that Rosalina needs to be changed. She has no weaknesses besides her weight, and completely shuts down much of the cast.

 

[ChikoLad]

At only 55%, Rosalina killed me with a barely charged fsmash near the edge of the stage due to me being hit by both Luma and Rosalina. I'd say that's too strong for a character whose strength should revolve around her puppet, Luma.

Two corrections:

1) Rosalina and Luma's launch power doesn't combine. The knockback you take is based on which of the two's moves hits last. Luma's Forward Smash does more knockback, Rosalina's does more damage (also plenty of characters can KO Palutena at 55% if she hangs at the edge of the stage).

2) Rosalina doesn't "rely" on Luma. This was never advertised to be the point of the character in Smash, and it would be completely contradictory to the two characters' roles in the Mario universe.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

She's almost certainly top 2, but that's not the point. The point is that she's just poorly designed. As a puppet character, Rosalina + Luma should be extremely good if used well, but Rosalina by herself should be terrible. As it stands, Rosalina alone is still totally fine as a character and you only have to play as her for 8 seconds anyway. This allows you to do well with her even without putting any thought into how you use Luma.


This is also the reasoning behind my increase to Robin's item respawn time. As it stands, the item loss mechanic is simply trivial. It takes forever to actually consume your items, and once you do they're only gone for a few seconds anyway.

Literally above this post I just posted a video that showed Rosalina got nerfed and now has to wait 13 seconds for Luma to respawn.

its hard being a new user

 

[linhgame]

I know what they can buff in the patch, more freakin hats drops!!!

 

[Terotrous]

2) Rosalina doesn't "rely" on Luma. This was never advertised to be the point of the character in Smash, and it would be completely contradictory to the two characters' roles in the Mario universe.

Luma doesn't fight in the Mario Universe either. This is Smash, it doesn't have to be accurate to the original games (though my idea about having Luma turn into the launch star is a nod to Galaxy anyway).

Literally above this post I just posted a video that showed Rosalina got nerfed and now has to wait 13 seconds for Luma to respawn.

its hard being a new user

Yeah, I saw it after I made that post. Kudos to Sakurai for getting that one right. She's probably still a bit too good as a solo character but it's something.

 

[FloatingMew]

I swear to god if sheik gets nerfed due to all the scrubs complaining about her i'm foing to rage quit. sakurai already ruined marth and falco for me as is and i can't tolerate getting another character i actually enjoy immensely trashed again

Agreed, I can't lose the only main i've ever kept for more than a week in smash 4

 

[Terotrous]

I like my idea of just making Sheik lighter. She's generally supposed to be speedy and full of combos, but the issue is that her recovery is also one of the very best in the game, being very long ranged and almost totally impossible to intercept. Making her lighter prevents her from living quite so long. She's not a fundamentally bad character design in the same way that Rosalina and Little Mac are, she's just a bit too good.

It's quite possible various other characters may also need weight tweaks, it's a very simple way of making a character a little better or a little worse.

 

[ChikoLad]

Luma doesn't fight in the Mario Universe either. This is Smash, it doesn't have to be accurate to the original games (though my idea about having Luma turn into the launch star is a nod to Galaxy anyway).

Co-Star Luma says hi. Actually, now that I think about it, Rosalina & Luma's dynamic in Smash very much reminds me of how Co-Star Luma worked in Galaxy 2 (strengthened the already competent Mario).

And Smash doesn't have to be 100% accurate to the source, but it has to at least be true to the basic idea of the character. Rosalina is the adoptive mother of Lumas. They gravitated to her because they felt she could protect and care for them. Having Rosalina be completely dependent on Luma would be backwards and beyond stupid.

Rosalina isn't broken, people need more time.

 

[Terotrous]

Rosalina is the adoptive mother of Lumas. They gravitated to her because they felt she could protect and care for them. Having Rosalina be completely dependent on Luma would be backwards and beyond stupid.

Yeah, but that caring and protecting is in more of a motherly sense than a "kicking everyone's ass" sense. If Rosalina was such a butt-kicker we wouldn't even need Mario to be in that game, she could just be the main character.


I think it makes quite a bit of sense for Luma to be the one who does the heavy lifting while Rosalina directs him.

 

[Rysir]

I guess if we're making up unrealistic hopes about what we'd like to be changed I might as well join in, but I know none of these will ever actually happen.

Overall game changes:

- Rage is removed entirely. All characters receive a bit more knockback on kill moves to compensate.
- You can hold L when picking a stage to disable all hazards.
- You can no longer perform another air dodge during air dodge's IASA frames. Attacking is still possible.
- You can now opt to play as the Miis using the default character (from the artwork) rather than your own Mii. These characters can be used on For Glory.
- You can no longer turn off custom moves. They are always available in every mode, including For Glory. Equipment can still be turned off. You can enter a 4 button code on the character select screen to pick your moveset if it hasn't been created.
- While we're being super unrealistic, the timer is removed from Masterpieces so you can play the full game, lol.


Character specific changes:

- Ganon Side B can no longer be teched. Air Side B guarantees followup at certain percents, like in Project M. Up Tilt becomes the move that it is in Project M.
- Zelda Side B no longer becomes helpless and the fireball travels faster. Zelda's tilts and smashes are restored to how they were in Brawl. Phantom no longer has a deadzone right in front of Zelda.
- Charizard's aerials have better autocancel windows. The two hits of Up B now always link properly.
- Mii Swordfighter's aerials have better autocancel windows.
- Dedede Dair is reverted to Brawl. It has relatively little landing lag.
- Doctor Mario has faster run speed and aerial manuverability. Or better yet, he's removed from the game altogether and what few good moves he has are given to Mario.
- Lucina's autocancel windows become more favourable, giving her an upside over Marth.
- Dark Pit does extra damage and knockback, but runs slower and has less aerial mobility, to distinguish him from Pit.
- Ike's jab links properly again. Side B no longer becomes helpless, and Ike can cancel the dash with a jump.
- Olimar's Pikmin now have a maturity mechanic, like in Project M. Current strength is Bud, if they survive until Flower they are more powerful. His aerials no longer have ridiculous freeze frames and autocancel better. Olimar's UpB1 is replaced with Pikmin chain, which is a tether and a kill move if sweetspotted. You can no longer mash out of Olimar's grab before he can throw at low damage. Side B does more damage.
- Rosalina's attacks do less damage and knockback (Luma is unchanged). Luma now takes 20 seconds to respawn after being killed. Rosalina's UpB consumes Luma upon use, cannot be used if Luma is dead or far away.
- Sheik's weight reduced to 70 (was 85).
- Lucario's aura mechanic is removed. He functions like he does when he has 50% damage at all times. Side B no longer randomly fails against some characters.
- Robin's things also take 20 seconds to respawn. His grab is slightly faster to compensate.
- Little Mac no longer has armor on up and down smash, KO punch loses power (only kills at 60%), and now only builds meter when he does damage. However, all of his aerials have better damage and knockback. Air UpB deals significantly more damage (becoming a viable kill move) and travels farther. Basically, he becomes a much more legitimate character, closer to Mii Brawler than the gimmicky nonsense he is now.
- Also, all various bugs are fixed.


There, Smash4 totally fixed.

Eesh you do know that your change to lucario would utterly destroy him right? The 50% range only adds +1-4% damage or so to his attacks making him about the weakest character in the game with very little knockback on all his hits and would only get a KO on a light character once they reach 150% damage minimum.

How about we hope for smaller steps to be taken instead?

 

[Xzsmmc]

Please return Mr. G&W to his Brawl days. He really ate the nerfhammer in this game.

 

[Terotrous]

Eesh you do know that your change to lucario would utterly destroy him right? The 50% range only adds +1-4% damage or so to his attacks making him about the weakest character in the game with very little knockback on all his hits and would only get a KO on a light character once they reach 150% damage minimum.

How about we hope for smaller steps to be taken instead?

Uhh, he's not that uselessly weak at low aura. Maybe his aura needs to be a little higher (perhaps 75% instead), but he should obviously never reach the level of power he gets around 130% where he starts killing at like 80%.

If what you are suggesting instead is that Lucario is a fundamentally bad character who would be useless if he couldn't kill you in 3 hits, that's something that needs to be examined in terms of the properties of his moves rather than making him a "I hit you once, I win" character. I disagree that this is the case, though.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Two corrections:

1) Rosalina and Luma's launch power doesn't combine. The knockback you take is based on which of the two's moves hits last. Luma's Forward Smash does more knockback, Rosalina's does more damage (also plenty of characters can KO Palutena at 55% if she hangs at the edge of the stage).

2) Rosalina doesn't "rely" on Luma. This was never advertised to be the point of the character in Smash, and it would be completely contradictory to the two characters' roles in the Mario universe.

Not really corrections, but I will clarify myself:

1) Being hit by both luma and rosa is effectively stronger due to suffering more damage before the final knockback. For example being hit by Rosa and then Luma would be very strong due to suffering the most damage and then the most knockback.

2) I do agree her luma shouldn't be and right now isn't more important than herself, but having a puppet (even though the puppet is inferior to rosa overall) still makes that her defining strength because that's the strength that's unique only to her. That's what I mean by "revolves around Luma". Perhaps I should say "too strong for a character whose character-unique strength is that she has the support of a puppet"

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, but that caring and protecting is in more of a motherly sense than a "kicking everyone's ***" sense. If Rosalina was such a butt-kicker we wouldn't even need Mario to be in that game, she could just be the main character.


I think it makes quite a bit of sense for Luma to be the one who does the heavy lifting while Rosalina directs him.

You just described the gameplay-story segregation that effects Rosalina. She's arguably the most powerful character in Smash going by canon, but because Mario is on the front of the box, she can only do so much. This is no different to the gameplay-story segregation that effects Peach, who is arguably more competent than Mario himself going by raw abilities.

And even without Galaxy, Rosalina is the only character in 3D World who has an attack without using a power-up. She has always been portrayed as a bit of a "butt kicker". Even her Mario Kart bios describe her as "tough", and that she will only ride the biggest and baddest bikes.

She's caring and motherly and quiet, but that doesn't mean she has to be frail. She doesn't take ****.

So yeah, it would be completely contradictory to her character to have to completely rely on Luma. She's fine for now, people just need to get better. I main Rosalina and I've still had my ass handed to me by players who are simply better than me even if they use normally poor characters against her, like Mega Man.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Based on this video, it seems that Rosalina IS going to be affected, and not in a good way either.

Normally, it takes around 8.75 seconds for a new Luma to spawn. However, the video shows that it now takes approximately 12.55 seconds before a new Luma appears.

This is probably the most redundant change that I've seen, and that could spell bad news for Rosalina's competitive potential.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

You just described the gameplay-story segregation that effects Rosalina. She's arguably the most powerful character in Smash going by canon, but because Mario is on the front of the box, she can only do so much. This is no different to the gameplay-story segregation that effects Peach, who is arguably more competent than Mario himself going by raw abilities.

And even without Galaxy, Rosalina is the only character in 3D World who has an attack without using a power-up. She has always been portrayed as a bit of a "butt kicker". Even her Mario Kart bios describe her as "tough", and that she will only ride the biggest and baddest bikes.

She's caring and motherly and quiet, but that doesn't mean she has to be frail. She doesn't take ****.

So yeah, it would be completely contradictory to her character to have to completely rely on Luma. She's fine for now, people just need to get better. I main Rosalina and I've still had my *** handed to me by players who are simply better than me even if they use normally poor characters against her, like Mega Man.

Well you can't really say that. Rosalina is doing very well in high level tournaments right now. Your experience doesn't mean much because like you say the opponents are better than you; you can't quantify whether their better skill doesn't more than compensate for what you view as using characters that do poorly against her.

I still stand by my argument that Rosalina lacks interesting weaknesses design wise, regardless of balance.

 

[Terotrous]

Rosalina is the only character in 3D World who has an attack without using a power-up.

That "attack" is Luma's spin attack, though. She likely has Luma with her somewhere (hidden under her dress?!?)


However, if we don't want her to be dependent on Luma I will also accept "Rosalina becomes a bit better as a character, but Luma is removed entirely" as a potential change. (Neutral B still shoots Luma, but he disappears after being shot. Side B shoots star bits out from Rosalina instead). This isn't my preference, though, as a player of Smash first and foremost, I don't care very much about whether or not the game is accurate to the source material, I would much rather have an interesting (and fair) character design.

Normally, it takes around 8.75 seconds for a new Luma to spawn. However, the video shows that it now takes approximately 12.55 seconds before a new Luma appears.

This is probably the most redundant change that I've seen, and that could spell bad news for Rosalina's competitive potential.

Yeah, I seriously doubt it. Rosalina is barely affected when Luma is dead. You now just have to be barely affected for a little longer.

It might be enough to make some of her matchups a little less lopsided but killing Luma still isn't greatly rewarded.

 

[Rysir]

Uhh, he's not that uselessly weak at low aura. Maybe his aura needs to be a little higher (perhaps 75% instead), but he should obviously never reach the level of power he gets around 130% where he starts killing at like 80%.

If what you are suggesting instead is that Lucario is a fundamentally bad character who would be useless if he couldn't kill you in 3 hits, that's something that needs to be examined in terms of the properties of his moves rather than making him a "I hit you once, I win" character. I disagree that this is the case, though.

Actually yeah, at 0-60% lucario is literally the weakest character in the game and can not get a KO on a light or medium character even with a fully charged smash till the opponent is at mauled state of 150% range. And how is he a "I hit you once and win" character?
I can outplay someone and string them up in combos only to see their % has gone from 0 to 28 while someone can smack me 2-3 times and deal triple my damage to me. And I can assure you, I have to hit people more than once in order to win since unless someone is near a blast zone or walked into my fully charged smash attacks while I had max aura buff then that would be no different then walking into death situation with any other character.

Its not the aura mechanic you should be driving a knife into, its the Rage bonus that adds 30% knockback to everything that everyone has as the aura mechanic existed since brawl and only got complaints when Rage was added.

 

[Terotrous]

Actually yeah, at 0-60% lucario is literally the weakest character in the game and can not get a KO on a light or medium character even with a fully charged smash till the opponent is at mauled state of 150% range

Then just fix him to have reasonable knockback. The idea is basically just that his knockback should be in line with everyone else at all times. He shouldn't have any points where he's unreasonably weak or strong.

And how is he a "I hit you once and win" character?

When he has full aura he hits preposterously hard, getting kills in the 60% range, which no character should be able to get without a gimp. He can be at 150% vs 50% and win the match with one hit, which just shouldn't happen.

Its not the aura mechanic you should be driving a knife into, its the Rage bonus that adds 30% knockback to everything that everyone has as the aura mechanic existed since brawl and only got complaints when Rage was added.

Rage is definitely also part of the problem, but "take damage and gain knockback" is just a bad mechanic in general. Aura is a poor mechanic for the same reason that Rage should be removed.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

My guess would be damage, attack speed and knockback fixes to balances things out without alienating a character's gameplay

 

[ChikoLad]

Well you can't really say that. Rosalina is doing very well in high level tournaments right now. Your experience doesn't mean much because like you say the opponents are better than you; you can't quantify whether their better skill doesn't more than compensate for what you view as using characters that do poorly against her.

I still stand by my argument that Rosalina lacks interesting weaknesses design wise, regardless of balance.

But if people's complaint is that she is "broken" or "OP", they are flat out wrong, because her being so would imply someone with much less skill than another player can beat the better player by just picking Rosalina. This is far from the case, especially since Rosalina is a complex character to master.

That "attack" is Luma's spin attack, though. She likely has Luma with her somewhere (hidden under her dress?!?)

No, it isn't. Rosalina just naturally has the ability. Luma doesn't pop out like he does for Mario to indicate a recharge time, and the attack is better than what Luma granted to Mario in Galaxy (and to what Lumas can do).

 

[Terotrous]

No, it isn't. Rosalina just naturally has the ability. Luma doesn't pop out like he does for Mario to indicate a recharge time, and the attack is better than what Luma granted to Mario in Galaxy (and to what Lumas can do).

Yet hilariously she doesn't have this attack in Smash. I don't know why it wasn't her neutral air.

 

[DarkKiru]

But if people's complaint is that she is "broken" or "OP", they are flat out wrong, because her being so would imply someone with much less skill than another player can beat the better player by just picking Rosalina. This is far from the case, especially since Rosalina is a complex character to master.

Definitely agree to an extent, Rosalina & Luma are by no means "broken" (no, thats the term I would use to refer to someone like brawl MK) she might be a bit too strong, but shes not so strong that you can't overcome her with more skill.

All in all I think its fine to bump up Luma's respawn timer, it helps make her weakness more clear, without actually hurting her strengths (that weakness basically being, attack while Luma is down; this is your best chance to hit her)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yet hilariously she doesn't have this attack in Smash. I don't know why it wasn't her neutral air.

Probably because it could've been used for recovery purposes, making Launch Star not get used as much for horizontal recoveries.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I really hope (though I certainly don't expect) they up the damage threshold for attacks bouncing back the Gordos. IIRC it's something like 3% and they come flying back at you, which is insane since the vast majority of projectiles will accomplish this easily. 10%, which would be covered by most Smashes/some tilts and things would be what I want, but even if it was like 7% I'd be fine. It's just silly that it can be hit by ZSS's paralyzer or Mario's fireball and have it be bounced back, this change alone would make Dedede more viable against projectile characters.

I also hope they address rolls in this game. Rolling a lot is still generally a bad idea but they're stronger than they should be in this game. But again, it's something I don't really see happening.

 

[Terotrous]

Definitely agree to an extent, Rosalina & Luma are by no means "broken" (no, thats the term I would use to refer to someone like brawl MK) she might be a bit too strong, but shes not so strong that you can't overcome her with more skill.

The thing is that Rosalina has a huge advantage that no other character has, which is the ability to attack out of hitstun using Luma. She has some other big advantages, like the fact that Luma gives her extremely safe pressure and can absorb projectiles. What tradeoffs does she have to balance these out? None really. You can kill Luma to remove these abilities, but doing so puts you at risk (smart Rosalinas will punish attempts to hit Luma), and even without Luma she's still a totally competent character who can at the very least hold her own until Luma comes back.

That's just not good design in general. If someone has a big advantage over the cast, there has to be something that balances it out. For example, Little Mac has ridiculously fast armored smash attacks and a one-hit KO, but at least he does have some major weaknesses to compensate (he has a different problem where his strengths and weaknesses are so drastic that he's an overly polarizing character). Rosalina just has big advantages with no major drawbacks, which is basically always equivalent to top tier, because it gives you an advantage over the "complete" characters who make up high tier.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yet hilariously she doesn't have this attack in Smash. I don't know why it wasn't her neutral air.

Probably because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on a 2D plane. In Galaxy, they made the spin attack because from a game design standpoint, having a 360 degree attack in a platformer is useful. On a 2D plane, not so much, it would only take her left and right sides.

Also Mario, Dr. Mario, and Luigi all have something that looks very similar in Smash, so that might have something to do with it. At least Luma spins.

 

[Rysir]

Then just fix him to have reasonable knockback. The idea is basically just that his knockback should be in line with everyone else at all times. He shouldn't have any points where he's unreasonably weak or strong.



When he has full aura he hits preposterously hard, getting kills in the 60% range, which no character should be able to get without a gimp. He can be at 150% vs 50% and win the match with one hit, which just shouldn't happen.



Rage is definitely also part of the problem, but "take damage and gain knockback" is just a bad mechanic in general. Aura is a poor mechanic for the same reason that Rage should be removed.

He does have reasonable knockback. a 90% lucario has a chunk less knockback than Ike or Gannondorf and only has more when hes battered up at 172% which is entirely the fault of the opponent who failed to knock him out before then. At the point where Lucario is strong he is also extremely easy to KO and has to play way more carefully than anyone else or he will suddenly lose the ability to KO at all till hes hurt again or has the opponent absurdly high % already.

And did you know that Gannondorf and Ike can KO people who are at 60% far easier than lucario? Gannondorf only has to do a zero charge forward smash and the KO is his while Lucario has to use a high charge or hope his back air lands. (which by the way Lucario has pretty terrible range on pretty much all his attacks)

Lucario gets rewarded for surviving by getting more power and his opponent is punished for not finishing off Lucario by getting hit harder. If hes surviving at crazy high % thats more the fault of his opponent because lucario is very easy to KO at 90%+

Rage is the only issue, we dont need to destroy a character mechanic when a blanket mechanic is the real problem.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The thing is that Rosalina has a huge advantage that no other character has, which is the ability to attack out of hitstun using Luma. She has some other big advantages, like the fact that Luma gives her extremely safe pressure and can absorb projectiles. What tradeoffs does she have to balance these out? None really. You can kill Luma to remove these abilities, but doing so puts you at risk (smart Rosalinas will punish attempts to hit Luma), and even without Luma she's still a totally competent character.

That's just not good design in general. If someone has a big advantage over the cast, there has to be something that balances it out. For example, Little Mac has ridiculously fast armored smash attacks and a one-hit KO, but at least he does have some major weaknesses to compensate (he has a different problem where his strengths and weaknesses are so drastic that he's an overly polarizing character). Rosalina just has big advantages with no major drawbacks, which is basically always equivalent to top tier.

Ironically, the KO Uppercut isn't even a guaranteed 1-hit KO; the opponent would have to have taken a good amount of damage to even get KO'd by that attack.

 

[Terotrous]

Ironically, the KO Uppercut isn't even a guaranteed 1-hit KO; the opponent would have to have taken a good amount of damage to even get KO'd by that attack.

~15% for most characters.