Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

[Ryusuta]

Id like to see (even though it's probably not going to happen) an option to use custom moves and ignore equips. That and buffs to Pit/Dark Pit on different moves to actually significantly differentiate them. On that same token, Lucina right now is less safe on shield than Marth is, and that needs to be addressed so she's not strictly a worse version of him. I'd also be thrilled with power buffs to Dr. Mario...

Rosaluma getting nerfed is really good news though. It's just a shame they also nerfed Bowser. Yes it's probably for the best because Bowserciding is kinda cheap, but it was still fun as hell to do.

Yeah, I made a similar post. Separating custom moves from equipment would be a HUGE deal. I can't picture playing a character like Charizard without them.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Falcon was already pretty thoroughly buffed from his Brawl incarnation (plus the changes to the game engine, allowing combos again, helped a lot too). I don't think he needs a whole lot more than he has to be decent.

Oh I know Falcon doesn't need any buffs

But if you ask me for what I honestly want then the answer can only be more Falcon

 

[Tagxy]

By the way so far the only balance change I know of so far is rosalinas luma time thing, which is pretty minor.

The megaman u-air thing isnt actually a change in his hitbox, they just made the animation represent the hitbox more correctly which is outstanding. Hopefully this is done more.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yeah, I made a similar post. Separating custom moves from equipment would be a HUGE deal. I can't picture playing a character like Charizard without them.

Or Ganon, or Bowser, or Palutena, or Fox, or Ness, etc

 

[The21stSmasher]

Man, I just hope that they'll buff up the characters who are still weak... *cough* *cough* *cough*

 

[Rokk Hero]

I just want to know what the hell 'Yomi' is.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Man, I just hope that they'll buff up the characters who are still weak... *cough* *cough* *cough*

Olimar says hi

 

[The21stSmasher]

Olimar says hi

And .

 

[DarkKiru]

There are a ton of things i want to be changed.
At first: They should nerf this annoying fast roll in this game.
Then they should reduce the blastzones.
And please: Nerf the counter attacks. Shulk's is so OP.

I agree with nerfing rolls, not sure how I feel about blast zones.

I didn't main him in the previous games, but I played Marth a bit on the side, honestly I think counters are fine as is now, in the previous entries they didn't feel all that useful; The only time they'll ever kill you at super low %'s, is if you do something REALLY stupid (like try to warlock punch Ike)

Shulk's counter is pretty crazy (especially with Monado: Smash), but bear in mind if I recall; its active frames drop every time its used.

 

[Nobie]

On that same token, Lucina right now is less safe on shield than Marth is, and that needs to be addressed so she's not strictly a worse version of him.

This raises an interesting question. If the patch were to say, "Okay, Lucina gets Marth's sourspot recovery times on all of her attacks," does she become better than Marth?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

This raises an interesting question. If the patch were to say, "Okay, Lucina gets Marth's sourspot recovery times on all of her attacks," does she become better than Marth?

Not neccesarily, because she doesn't have the tipper. She'd be the safer to use, less risk less reward option compared to Marth

 

[sunset_raven]

This raises an interesting question. If the patch were to say, "Okay, Lucina gets Marth's sourspot recovery times on all of her attacks," does she become better than Marth?

I'd wager she'd be still worse in the end. A good entry point, but as people develop their skills, tipping with Marth will just flat out beat whatever safety Lucina gains.

 

[Nobie]

Not neccesarily, because she doesn't have the tipper. She'd be the safer to use, less risk less reward option compared to Marth

You know, I'd be okay with that.

 

[Tagxy]

Also completely agree with Thinkaman on everything hes said so far, he's well informed on the subject.

Only thing I dont agree with is this.

Poker has bluffing. There isn't actually a fractal of direct and indirect strategies--no true counter-play of any sort. With perfect information, Poker would be trivial.

Ive dabbled a bit with poker, Poker is one of the best examples imo of a deep game with low execution barrier. Its existence doesnt hurt the fact that video games should also be an accessible medium.

The reason tech skill becomes destructive as a measurement of skill for video games is because it completely diminishes accessibility from something as beautifully accessible as video games, and essentially turns it into a physical sport. Anyone who dedicates their time to improving and getting better can make it to the top based on their own intelligence, cunning and understanding of the game in something accessible. The issue with a game like melee is that at top level play you have people who are naturally talented in their technical ability, and essentially do harm to their own well being (top players in melee do harm to their hands/bodies to maintain top player status). When you need to do hand exercises and hand therapy to play a game at high level I think youve delved too far into the inaccessible lane.

Not that technical skill in and of itself shouldnt ever be measured as a skill, thats subjective. You can honestly measure any skill you want, using an example from sirlin if you wanted you could test someones cake baking skills mid-game and that would separate "good" from "bad" players and reward dedication. But with tech skill when you go down that road in competitive gaming you turn something accessible into a physical sport where natural talent plays a key role in playing the real game.

 

[byebye]

I'd like for it to be sooner...But that's the date that makes sense. I'd prefer to not keep practicing with characters that may have had something significant changed about them.

While I agree, I think the early info is just give ample heads up for those that play locally (people need to talk about updating the same day - it's not a good experience to have a chance to play knowing that the other person have not yet updated), and for those that would like to record the "videos" they saved before the patch.

So while it is a struggle to wait, I'll take it. T_T

 

[NAKAT]

Yeh it was Ramin my bad. I know friendlies arent serious but Mario does get underrated imo.

Mario is mad good dude. Probably upper mid or low high.

 

[byebye]

I just want to know what the hell 'Yomi' is.

Go to the Sirlin site that Thinkaman is linking. He touched on it on his book "Play To Win".
I treat yomi as basic as a mind read.

e.g.
Player 1 always do an over powered dash attack every time he dashes.

player 2 learns that the only way to counter that is to block and punish.
then player 2 does that a few times with success.

Player 1 learns that and now learned that if he dashes, he knows the opponent will block. so player1's best option is to grab.

Player 2 now blocks and empty dash into a throw. Then player 2 thinks he should attack instead to beat out the throw.

Then Player1 now does the over powered dash attack again that beats out Player 2's attack.

then over and over.

 

[Conda]

With balance patches now being a thing, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a subforum titled "Patch change wishes" where people can post what they want to be nerfed or buffed. And whenever someone says "this needs to be nerfed" or "buff my main!", it'll be removed and they'll have to post such comments in that subforum instead.

Basically, filter out the patch request posts. It makes the LoL and WoW forums toxic. This forum will come to a halt if it fills up with that kind of crap, now that we know balance patches are a thing.

Discussions on who is strong in certain matchups, for example, shouldn't devolve to buff or nerf discussion. A subforum will make it clear that there is a place to post useless things like that, and the competitive subforum is not that place.

Or we could allow discussion on patch nerfs/buffs that we think are needed, and that'll be all we really talk about to gain catharsis rather than discussing new strategies.

 

[Rokk Hero]

Go to the Sirlin site that Thinkaman is linking. He touched on it on his book "Play To Win".
I treat yomi as basic as a mind read.

e.g.
Player 1 always do an over powered dash attack every time he dashes.

player 2 learns that the only way to counter that is to block and punish.
then player 2 does that a few times with success.

Player 1 learns that and now learned that if he dashes, he knows the opponent will block. so player1's best option is to grab.

Player 2 now blocks and empty dash into a throw. Then player 2 thinks he should attack instead to beat out the throw.

Then Player1 now does the over powered dash attack again that beats out Player 2's attack.

then over and over.

Ah, so it's basically Game Theory. Cool, I'll check out the Sirlin stuff too. Thanks.

 

[Tagxy]

With balance patches now being a thing, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a subforum titled "Patch change wishes" where people can post what they want to be nerfed or buffed. And whenever someone says "this needs to be nerfed" or "buff my main!", it'll be removed and they'll have to post such comments in that subforum instead.

Basically, filter out the patch request posts. It makes the LoL and WoW forums toxic. This forum will come to a halt if it fills up with that kind of crap, now that we know balance patches are a thing.

Discussions on who is strong in certain matchups, for example, shouldn't devolve to buff or nerf discussion. A subforum will make it clear that there is a place to post useless things like that, and the competitive subforum is not that place.

Or we could allow discussion on patch nerfs/buffs that we think are needed, and that'll be all we really talk about to gain catharsis rather than discussing new strategies.

I actually think discussion in the competitive forum about speculative/unconfirmed patch changes/what I want/what should be changed, and even this thread in general are pointless and harm competitive discussion (no offense to anyone). Ive already seen other threads on this start to pop up and they basically are request changes without addressing whether the problems they "solve" actually exist.

Case in point:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-...mpetitively-balance-patches-confirmed.377332/

I hope discussion like this gets banned.
@Shaya

 

[byebye]

With balance patches now being a thing, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a subforum titled "Patch change wishes" where people can post what they want to be nerfed or buffed. And whenever someone says "this needs to be nerfed" or "buff my main!", it'll be removed and they'll have to post such comments in that subforum instead.

Basically, filter out the patch request posts. It makes the LoL and WoW forums toxic. This forum will come to a halt if it fills up with that kind of crap, now that we know balance patches are a thing.

Discussions on who is strong in certain matchups, for example, shouldn't devolve to buff or nerf discussion. A subforum will make it clear that there is a place to post useless things like that, and the competitive subforum is not that place.

Or we could allow discussion on patch nerfs/buffs that we think are needed, and that'll be all we really talk about to gain catharsis rather than discussing new strategies.

That would be good. but I really feel that this patches will be very very rare. I believe that this upcoming patch is just to sync Wii U and 3ds version. and I won't be surprised if we don't get another "balance" patch in the future. There is a high possibility that this patch could be the final "balance" patch.

 

[Conda]

That would be good. but I really feel that this patches will be very very rare. I believe that this upcoming patch is just to sync Wii U and 3ds version. and I won't be surprised if we don't get another "balance" patch in the future. There is a high possibility that this patch could be the final "balance" patch.

The point is that, even with the patches being rare, many people are still going to devolve threads into patch request junk - this should get buffed, that should get nerfed, I hope Nintendo is listening, etc. Discouraging that discussion via actual rules is important.

 

[Utena]

As far as I know "Teching" is referring to the use of a glitch or bug in order to enhance the playstlye of your character.

"teching" in smash bros is pressing shield while falling right before hitting a surface in order to stand up/recover from hitstun immediately.
i ignored the rest of your post tbh it was way too long

anyways i like techs that take player skill to pull off like dacus and wavedashing. I agree that instead of l canceling it would be nice if all aerials just had their endlag reduced but whatever. glitches deserve to be patched but not small exploits that only serve to make certain characters and very technical players marginally better.

 

[Conda]

By the way so far the only balance change I know of so far is rosalinas luma time thing, which is pretty minor.

The megaman u-air thing isnt actually a change in his hitbox, they just made the animation represent the hitbox more correctly which is outstanding. Hopefully this is done more.

What 'megaman thing'? I'm not sure what the context to this is - did they change the uair animation for the wii u version, and is this supposed to be common knowledge?

edit: after doing some hunting - yes, the animation has been changed. It's wider-looking and looks even more like a mini MK tornado. Looks worse than before though imo, the neon blue tornado was slick looking. Around 3:20 for those who are curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsgKuBreqCE

 

[Emblem Lord]

This raises an interesting question. If the patch were to say, "Okay, Lucina gets Marth's sourspot recovery times on all of her attacks," does she become better than Marth?

Yes. She becomes better. She will lack his power but she will be far safer and her dtilt trap will be better.

 

[Conda]

Also completely agree with Thinkaman on everything hes said so far, he's well informed on the subject.

Only thing I dont agree with is this.

Ive dabbled a bit with poker, Poker is one of the best examples imo of a deep game with low execution barrier. Its existence doesnt hurt the fact that video games should also be an accessible medium.

The reason tech skill becomes destructive as a measurement of skill for video games is because it completely diminishes accessibility from something as beautifully accessible as video games, and essentially turns it into a physical sport. Anyone who dedicates their time to improving and getting better can make it to the top based on their own intelligence, cunning and understanding of the game in something accessible. The issue with a game like melee is that at top level play you have people who are naturally talented in their technical ability, and essentially do harm to their own well being (top players in melee do harm to their hands/bodies to maintain top player status). When you need to do hand exercises and hand therapy to play a game at high level I think youve delved too far into the inaccessible lane.

Not that technical skill in and of itself shouldnt ever be measured as a skill, thats subjective. You can honestly measure any skill you want, using an example from sirlin if you wanted you could test someones cake baking skills mid-game and that would separate "good" from "bad" players and reward dedication. But with tech skill when you go down that road in competitive gaming you turn something accessible into a physical sport where natural talent plays a key role in playing the real game.

One of the things from Brawl's design philosophy that shines through even better in Smash 4 is less dexterity-intensive characters being competitively viable. It gives the less dexterous a chance to still compete by using+mastering a different set of skills instead. The slower characters have tricks that less dextrous players can use intelligently to stay competitively threatening. It's great.

So if Fox or Sheik tired you with the SH->Fair/Nair->FF etc shenanigans tires your hands after hours, you can swap to a character that has a different forte. Instead of speed, go for trapping. Or go for projectile play. Or go for grappling heavy play. There's something for everyone and it seems to be well rounded and balanced enough this time around.



Fighting AGAINST fast players still requires a lot more than slow characters, though, but only in some circumstances. It can still be a crappy experience though, as we're seeing with comments by players who dislike fighting against Sonic for very legitimate reasons.

This might be the reason why speed is still too valuable a stat/forte in Smash 4 -- being fast requires your opponent to be fast.

Having good projectiles requires your opponent to deal with projectiles, which is powerful. Having good traps or really strong hits requires your opponent to play more carefully, which is powerful.

But being fast requires your opponent to have faster reaction times, which can be more demanding than anything else for some players.

Against a faster character, your speed is limited by your character, and sometimes you're literally required to react faster than you can due to your character choice. This is why we see people switch to Sheik when they're getting sandbagged as their slower main.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I just want to know what the hell 'Yomi' is.

I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) it refers to anticipating the opponent's moves and acting accordingly, possibly after conditioning them to do a specific thing in a specific situation.

 

[Thinkaman]

Only thing I dont agree with is this.

Ive dabbled a bit with poker, Poker is one of the best examples imo of a deep game with low execution barrier. Its existence doesnt hurt the fact that video games should also be an accessible medium.

Sorry if I was unclear; Poker is a fine game that seems to excel in the skill tests it emphasizes. (Simple evaluation, bluffing, reading bluffs) Yomi is just not one of those tests; poker has no mechanical counter-play. (You can't for instance, play your hand in such a way that it counters your opponent's stronger hand; that would be yomi.)

Edit:
Yomi is the act of reading your opponent's mind.

A yomi state is the atom of all fighting games. It is very desirable in game design, because it provides fractal depth. In other words, depth that repeats and goes on forever. This makes yomi states extremely strong building blocks for competitive games; almost all digital competitive games are built exclusively on yomi states at the lowest level.

The requirements of a yomi state are:

• Two sides with two options: A direct and indirect strategy
  • The options might have sub-options, which usually constitute nested yomi states
• Asymmetric sides; one side is dominant
  • This means his direct beat's the opponent's direct, and his indirect beats the opponent's indirect
  • ...but his direct loses to the opponent's indirect, and the his indirect loses to the opponent's direct
• The decision is orientable--the dominant side has a reason to prefer his direct strategy to his indirect
• The decision is made double-blind
  • This may be done in real-time by using a buffer--such as human reaction time

A simple way of describing a yomi state is "a series of counters."

Example
Let's consider vs. in the neutral at Luma Warp range, oriented around Wizard's Dropkick.

really wants to Wizard's Dropkick. really wants to Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp into a combo. We'll call these their direct moves--the ones they "most want to do" in this moment.

Direct vs. Direct
But if they indeed act at the same time, Ganon's Wizard's Dropkick jumps over Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp, and punishes Rosalina. Pretty hard too! This means Ganon is the dominant side in this state.
wins.

Direct vs. Indirect
But of course, Rosalina could just shield. Unless the position lets Ganon edge-cancelling his move, Rosalina can grab or even smash him. Her indirect strategy of just shielding wins.
wins.

Indirect vs. Indirect
So what about Ganon's indirect strategy? Well, he can just... walk forward. If Rosalina just shields, he gets to close the distance for free. Now, while Rosalina is stuck looking dumb in her shield, Ganon is closer; he has more options, is no longer as vulnerable to Luma Warp, and can now punish Speedy Star Bit on block. (He'll probably soon consider d-tilt, grab, side-b, or other moves he can now do in this range.)
wins, though just a positional advantage.

Indirect vs. Direct
But what is Rosalina just did Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp, like she wanted to in the first place? This will punish Ganon if he tries to move forward.
wins again.

So what if Ganon did Wizard's Dropkick to beat that? And so forth and so on; it's an endless, fractal, 4-step cycle with no ultimate solution.

The two players have to analyze each other's minds, with the full experience of all the previous events and choices of the match so far. ("Is Ganon going to just walk forward, or go ham?" and "What does Rosalina expect me to do?")


This long example might seem obtuse, but fighting games exist by creating states exactly like this EXTREMELY rapidly, sometimes multiple in a single second. With enough variety, these solution-less choices never get old.


RPS Triangles
Rock-Paper-Scissors is a 3-way (6-way if you count both sides), symmetrical alternative to yomi states. RPS states aren't actually that interesting taken raw, because they are non-orientable; your opponent really doesn't care which option he picks, so there's nothing to read or understand. It's kinda like baking chocolate--it's gross to just eat raw.

However, RPS as a framework does a great job of creating a design space for inducing yomi states, when asymmetric weights are applied and a pair of options collapses.

For example, virtually all fighting games are based on a Attack -> Grab -> Block -> Attack RPS foundation.

Consider out Ganon/Rosalina example. As a preface, "doing nothing" (but standing or walking) is on the abstract level a "grab", because it punishes defensive options.

In this case, Rosalina has no way to actually grab Ganondorf, and doing nothing yields her no possible advantage against anything Ganon might do.

Meanwhile, Ganon has no valid defensive options. Sure, he could block a ranged attack, but this doesn't benefit him directly. Best case, he momentarily blocks an attack, only so he can continues the grab of "doing nothing".

Thus Rosalina is playing with only attacks and blocking, and Ganon is playing only with (dominant) attacks and "grabbing." Ergo, our example yomi state emerges from the RPS foundation.

RPS frameworks are especially good at this because, with proper weights, they do a good job of instantiating a mix of yomi states that are dominant for each side.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Doesn't folding count as counterplay? I mean you need a proper read on your opponent in order to know when the right time to fold is and when you can go in which seems a lot like yomi to me.

 

[popsofctown]

I think poker does count as Yomi, but I'm not sure. I think it's not particularly important though. A different example could have been used.

5 card stud at the very least has some amount ofyomi, although texas hold 'em is more popular. In 5 card stud a player can bet a lot on their initial hand, and you can "counter" that by exchanging cards in a way that gives you a chance at a flush or straight (which risks you not even getting a pair). If the player had a pair of twos they tricked you, if the player had a 3 of a kind you read them right because you'll need a flush or straight to stay in the hand against that.

 

[byebye]

I think poker does count as Yomi, but I'm not sure. I think it's not particularly important though. A different example could have been used.

5 card stud at the very least has some amount ofyomi, although texas hold 'em is more popular. In 5 card stud a player can bet a lot on their initial hand, and you can "counter" that by exchanging cards in a way that gives you a chance at a flush or straight (which risks you not even getting a pair). If the player had a pair of twos they tricked you, if the player had a 3 of a kind you read them right because you'll need a flush or straight to stay in the hand against that.

I think the yomi in poker does not ride on one hand or one play. but rather multiple plays?
e.g. player 1 bets all in in 3 consecutive rounds, and most players fold and then player 1 always end up winning.
then player 2 thinks that player 1 will bet all in again, and at the same time just bluffing his way to win. so to counter, player 2 will not fold.

and then.

alright. I think I can agree with Thinkaman with this. One can't simply play mind games because the cards we have is just so random. even if player 2 guessed that player 1 is bluffing. there's always a chance that player 1's cards are stronger than player 2's. so even if player 2 won the mind games part (he guessed right in palyer 1 bluffing), his cards lost him the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario is mad good dude. Probably upper mid or low high.

You're killing me...seriously.

I watch you get beaten by Dabuz playing Rosalina relatively poorly (which to clarify, is one of Mario's BETTER high tier matchups). He kills you with standard juggles and edgeguards which Mario has absolutely no answer to, and you want me to believe that Mario is "mad good"?

You could at least have the decency to make your case in the competitive impressions discussion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I want to see how long it takes for NAKAT to say what i know hes thinking. He might not say it though since he is nice.

Lets enjoy the show.

To add fuel to the fire, im fairly certain that NAKAT believes mario is superior to marth.

Lets have fun with this thing

 

[Thinkaman]

Doesn't folding count as counterplay? I mean you need a proper read on your opponent in order to know when the right time to fold is and when you can go in which seems a lot like yomi to me.

I understand what you are getting at, though it's a slightly different sort of "read", a different meaning of the word.

You are attempting to detect an objective truth, which they are trying to conceal.

Yomi involves attempting to predict a choice they will make, which they are deciding based on the choice they think you will make.

In a bluff state, there is a right answer for both sides; one or both of them just doesn't know it!

Edit:
Bluff states are pretty solid building blocks for a game, as long as they are layered on top of a sufficiently complex set of evaluative tests. They usually call for a relatively slow paced game, to emphasize the reveals.

 

[GeZ]

After reading most of @ Thinkaman 's posts I just want to elect him for King of Games tier. I do agree with the thing on skill barrier, but I misinterpreted your thoughts on it and was arguing for competitive depth to Smash games. The only thing I'm wondering about is that a lot of cerebral parts of games (proper utilization of DD for instance) also are technically demanding, so does that fall in a grey area of your argument?

Thanks for being sincere at least with me. I appreciate not just being brushed off.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Dash-dancing is pretty easy anywhere outside of Brawl due to the wideness and control you have over it, it depends on how you use it I suppose, and it varies from character to character, but performing it is only a matter of flicking a stick relatively fast, and I think it's actually intuitive because that's how you also use SMASH attacks (at least when you first start off before you master the C Stick).

When I wanted to start dashdancing I just thought of it like doing rapid side smashes in succession without break and taught myself to vary the timing after I could DD in place. It's input heavy to some extent but it's really just inputting two common commands together to perform one fluid action so it works out, especially since it's a pretty simple motion.

 

[Thinkaman]

After reading most of @ Thinkaman 's posts I just want to elect him for King of Games tier. I do agree with the thing on skill barrier, but I misinterpreted your thoughts on it and was arguing for competitive depth to Smash games. The only thing I'm wondering about is that a lot of cerebral parts of games (proper utilization of DD for instance) also are technically demanding, so does that fall in a grey area of your argument?

Thanks for being sincere at least with me. I appreciate not just being brushed off.

I have mixed feelings on Dash Dancing, because it's an interesting set of options that by nature cannot exist without its input frequency--sort of like certain high-apm StarCraft formation behaviors, which also fit what you are thinking.

At the end of the day I feel like DD has a long "signal to noise" ratio; only a very small percentage of your inputs actually matter. It's also legitimately hard to do at certain distances (the shorter, the harder), and it adds more emphasis to reaction time vs. more interesting skills. What's particularly disappointing is the nature of the difficulty: it's based on finger speed, rather than coordination. I bet I could teach my parents to l-cancel at least some of the time, but they'd probably never be able to dash dance at any distance or consistency... (Some of my friends struggle with DD and other "fast" inputs in games too.)

I don't think DD is especially bad design, but I'd be in favor of exploring alternatives. StarCraft 2 was able to find some degree of solutions to the problems they faced, resulting in similar options with slightly lower execution barriers.

If it were up to me, I'd try making reverse dash a slightly distinct backpedal state, that works the same going into a run but has different physics and legal actions on pushing forward. This would be a relatively clean substitute for dash-dancing (depending on how you handle the transitions), reverse wave-dashing, and salmon-smashing, at least in theory. Something like this you have to see in practice.

I'd also be curious to see a unique, chargeable "high dash attack" replacing u-smashes out of a run--just like we have normal dash attacks instead of just doing f-tilts, and dash grabs and pivot grabs instead of normal grabs. This new distinct move could be tuned around sliding and stopping, serving as a more elegant DACUS. Just a curious experiment.

Edit:
For the record, I am unsure if Brawl and Smash 4's approach to wavedashing is ultimately better than Melee's. (Much harder, but much less significant/dominant.)

 

[Tagxy]

After reading most of @ Thinkaman 's posts I just want to elect him for King of Games tier. I do agree with the thing on skill barrier, but I misinterpreted your thoughts on it and was arguing for competitive depth to Smash games. The only thing I'm wondering about is that a lot of cerebral parts of games (proper utilization of DD for instance) also are technically demanding, so does that fall in a grey area of your argument?

Thanks for being sincere at least with me. I appreciate not just being brushed off.

I know thinkaman provided an answer but Id like to as well.

Theres an important term called elegance in game design. In essence it means creating the greatest amount of depth with the least amount of complexity. Its a very important concept in game design and many would argue the most important.

What this means is anytime a mechanic is added, its important to ask how does it add to the depth of the game? By depth I mean relevant and difficult choices and decision making. L-cancelling is a great counter-example of this, the mechanic is extremely complex (on its own its easy but incorporating it into high level competitive gameplay is crazy hard) but adds either no or extremely limited amounts of depth.

What does this mean for the addition of different sorts of mechanics? Well in some sense its subjective. Theres many simple addicting games that provide good depth for their complexity. Theres also complex games that also provide a good ratio of depth to complexity (that is, the lowest possible complexity for the greatest amount of depth). In the end if there's a good ratio of complexity to depth, the only question that really matters is is the game fun. A game can be sufficiently deep both with and without many complex mechanics (for instance the inclusion or exclusion of dash dancing) so long as it maintains a good ratio between the two (low complexity, high depth). People trying to assess smash 4's competitive viability for the most part dont seem to understand this.

Hate to bring up something old but I feel this is the keystone that needs to be addressed

What you are leaving out is the reward for dedication. This is a key feature I believe most Nintendo games have lost with the years. I believe this is something that keeps both the casual and the hardcore player coming back to your game over and over again. When you keep playing the game and you know you are getting better at it.

And game that sufficiently incorporates yomi is already infinitely deep and will always provide continuous reward for dedication. That's the nature of competitiveness. Complexity is superfluous in this department.

I understand what you are getting at, though it's a slightly different sort of "read", a different meaning of the word.

You are attempting to detect an objective truth, which they are trying to conceal.

Yomi involves attempting to predict a choice they will make, which they are deciding based on the choice they think you will make.

In a bluff state, there is a right answer for both sides; one or both of them just doesn't know it!

Edit:
Bluff states are pretty solid building blocks for a game, as long as they are layered on top of a sufficiently complex set of evaluative tests. They usually call for a relatively slow paced game, to emphasize the reveals.

I think folding, calling, and raising mesh together to create counterplay. Additionally poker extends beyond a single hand, I'd be more skeptical of yomi's existence in poker if it were just single hands. In this way the existence of one hand being better than another in one round sets up a mechanics but isnt where the central decision making lies. However I'm still learning about the deeper parts of competitive poker and don't know enough to make a direct comparison especially since different terms are used to describe what I believe are similar concepts.

 

[Conda]

Let's not put @ NAKAT in a corner guys, if you disagree with what he says that fine. Saying a character is good when you think he's bad for legitimate reasons isn't reason to get fired up.

And why are we saying things like this:

To add fuel to the fire, im fairly certain that NAKAT believes mario is superior to marth.

I really like both you EmblemLord and @ A2ZOMG , but maybe we're enjoying the potential fired-up-discussion prospects a little too much and putting @ NAKAT on the spot in a weird way. Bringing up things he may have said, demanding he say more, etc etc. He's a great player but he's not a political candidate or anything, let's not grill the guy or make things unwelcoming for sake of entertainment.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shhh.

Hush now. Let old man EL have his enjoyment.