~!~ UNOFFICIAL Competitive Tournament Rules - Stage Ban List *UPDATED* ~!~

[SIG]

Mario Circuit and Bridge of Eldin should not be banned.

Anybody who would like to use the "random elements" argument, please, pay attention to the background. (Also Shy Guys in Mario Circuit go in a very predictable figure 8 loop. It doesn't take alot to suss out when they will be making the approach from above or below.)

 

[Pizzaguylol]

Why is Shadow Moses banned?

This list needs to be revised... atleast we have stage builder for actual tournaments, sucks we can't use it online.

 

[bksbestbwoy]

This is just absolute garbage. I thought that Brawl wouldn't be choc full of the same nonsense that killed multiplayer melee among the "professional" players. When did gaming become a chore that needed rules like this? There's alot more that can be said on my part but for now this crap is perfectly summarized with this:

NO ITEMS
NO FUN
ALL FOX
FINAL DESTINATION!

Goodbye tournaments and tier***s, I'm going somewhere where people have FUN and don't pretend they are by learning techniques and a half-***** vocabulary based on game breaking, regulations, and
stage banning.... *******.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

Okay, I haven't read the whole thread (22 pages is a bit much to ingest), but here's my take on this ban list. Keep in mind that I'm a scrub looking to work into some tournaments down the road, so my views may be a little off-base, as I'm not used to how all the tournaments work exactly.

The neutrals are all fairly cut dry: flat stages with no outside interference. I see no problems.

I don't totally understand what a counterpick is, exactly, but what I'm guessing is a stage you pick to give your character an advantage over the others. I'm not sure why it's separated from the other legal stages, but I guess that's why I'm not making the lists. I've seen debate about a few of these, so I'll put in my two cents on a few.

Castle Siege
I think this should go neutral. The only thing that really could peg it down a bit is the fact that there are walk-off edges during portions of the stage (which may be enough to bump it into the realm of counterpicks).

Great Sea
Keep it there. Maybe I have some favoritism because I'm a big fan of the stage, but nothing seems to come out of nowhere completely. The storms are all very obvious due to the change in the background, bombs can be seen coming from behind, and a word bubble comes up when the ship crashes. Basically, all the subtle changes are accounted for in the stage itself. The only issue is the spring, but that should just be avoided. If you're willing to take the gamble and walk around it when it's set, then you shouldn't be complaining if it sends you flying.

Battleship Halberd
Keep it on; there's no real reason to ban it. All of the hazards are clearly visible and avoidable, which makes getting hit by one really on the fault of the player and not the stage. The issue with the takeoff also shouldn't be a problem, as it hasn't had an impact on myself or my friends yet, despite our having had the game for only a few days. If the players know to expect the floor to drop, they simply shouldn't allow themselves to get caught.

Green Hill Zone
Not a favorite of mine, but I agree that it should stay as a counterpick. As I see it, counterpicks are stages where something about them can change, which makes them not-quite-neutral, but also not so bad that they should be banned. The minor changes in Green Hill are small enough where the only real concern could be the walk-off edges, and even these aren't too disruptive.

Now the banned stages... the list looks mostly good, but I feel the need to comment on the stages.

Mushroomy Kingdom
Good, keep it like this. Scrolling and walk-off... all you need is a cheap Pit player to spam the side B on one of the walls and you have a KO.

Mario Circuit
I think it should stay in. The karts aren't much of a disruption from what I've noticed; when they come overhead it's clearly marked and when they come from behind you can clearly see them approaching. The walk-off edge may be an issue, but I don't see it as enough to ban unless a meta-game evolves to the point that it becomes broken (like a WaveShine).

Bridge of Eldin
Basically the same as Mario Circuit, but this time with the charging guy. It's not hard to avoid him and the exploding bridge is painfully easy to avoid. The only issue, again, is the walk-off edge, but I don't see that as a big issue just yet.

Rumble Falls
Keep it banned. I like the stage and think that it might have a shot as a counterpick, but it really has too much to keep up with, especially with all the spikes scattered around the stage.

Norfair
Haven't played on it enough to really say anything...

Pokémon Stadium 2
I'm not really sure why this is up as a banned stage. Would someone care to explain? Nothing seems overly broken, as all the disadvantages are applied to all the characters equally.

Port Town
Haven't played on it enough to really say anything...

Wario Ware
Love the stage completely, but it can't touch tournaments. There's the fact that winners of minigames can get random prizes and that you can take out a player trying to win too easily (a friend of mine was standing still during that game, so my other friend promptly charged up his Ike FSmash).

Distant Planet
This one should stay legal, I think. I may be totally underestimating walk-off edges, but that's really all it has going against it. When it rains, just don't touch the angled platform; even then a recovery isn't terribly difficult. Likewise, when the monster shows up, just don't jump in its mouth. Not too hard to do, right?

New Pork City
Good riddance. Miserable stage.

The Summit
See New Pork City.

Pictochat
I think it has a good shot as being a counterpick. The only concern, of course, is that there's no control over what comes up.

Shadow Moses
Sad to see this on here, but because of the infinite combos that can be done on the pillars and the walk-off edges, I suppose its inevitable... =(

DK Arcade
See New Pork City.

Spear Pillar
Probably my favorite stage in the game, but as with Shadow Moses, I see why it must go. There is just too much random stuff going on to make it playable. My favoritism makes me consider that it could be a good counterpick, as the beams are easy to avoid and the inverted controls can be learned by players, but I don't see that argument going anywhere.

Mario Bros.
See New Pork City.

Flat Zone 2
Better than the last one, but still miserable. Small ceiling, walk-off edges, lethal hazards. Does it get any worse for a tournament player? Oh right... the DK Arcade...

Electroplankon
Why's this one on here? The stage is a bit strange, but there's nothing out of the ordinary going on. The leaves move around but only if struck and not enough to make that a devastating kind of hazard. Maybe an explanation?

That's it from me... I may have underestimated the power of walk-off edges, but they just don't seem, at this point in the meta-game, to be very unfair. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. Hopefully I don't have too much of a "casual" gamer mindset infiltrating this list.

 

[thesage]

Either ddd's cg, Ness' and Dk's f-throws, and Kirby's and DDD's neutral b's are banned or walk offs are banned.

Frigate Ophelion should be banned because it gimps too many recoveries (Ness' and Lucas', tetherers) and when it flips sometimes it screws with your position and you die. I've seen a vid where this ko's 3 people in 5 secs.

 

[Yuna]

Castle Siege should not be neutral. If you're on different sides of the stage when the bomb goes off, Fox and Falco will have a field day with spamming lasers. Meanwhile, you'll have to approach them by making it to the other side, a maneuvre that is not completely safe.

 

[Judo Chop Action Super Buddha]

Tourney**** are ruining games like Brawl. "Oh, we're banning this stage because things happen in it that we couldn't expect, and it ruins our perfect record.

The random stuff in the level and the uniqueness is what makes it fun and interesting. I always do Random just so I have something fresh each time. A certain level caters to certain characters, you say? Well, try thinking of a way to counter that. Think outside the box.

None of this Fox McCloud, no items, Final Destination only crap X_X It just ruins the fun for everyone else. Face it, everyone loses sometimes. Stuff happens.

This is for tournaments which you will obviously not be playing in. It has nothing to do with you. Go eat a ****.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

Castle Siege should not be neutral. If you're on different sides of the stage when the bomb goes off, Fox and Falco will have a field day with spamming lasers. Meanwhile, you'll have to approach them by making it to the other side, a maneuvre that is not completely safe.

When the bomb goes off? Maybe I haven't played this stage as much as I thought, but I don't remember a bomb going off on the stage unless you're referencing the change in playfields.

Also, the only of those that really seems to be valid enough, thesage, is DDD's chaingrab. While the others certainly are an issue, you have to consider that any character allowing themself to be grabbed long enough (or swallowed) to actually be carried off the stage is probably doing something else wrong and the fault isn't so much in the stage itself.

Couldn't Frigate Orpheon's flip just be considered part of it being a counterpick? You're picking the stage against a character with a tether recovery so you pick that to give you a slight, non-game breaking, edge.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

he probably means bridge of eldin

 

[Yuna]

When the bomb goes off? Maybe I haven't played this stage as much as I thought, but I don't remember a bomb going off on the stage unless you're referencing the change in playfields.

I keep confusing it with Bridge of Eldin. I don't know why, sorry.

Couldn't Frigate Orpheon's flip just be considered part of it being a counterpick? You're picking the stage against a character with a tether recovery so you pick that to give you a slight, non-game breaking, edge.

What about the random canonshots?

In other news, I agree with almost everything on the list.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

I keep confusing it with Bridge of Eldin. I don't know why, sorry.


What about the random canonshots?

In other news, I agree with almost everything on the list.

You mean in Halberd? This is all getting very confusing to me...

But the cannon shots in Halberd (or Pirate Ship, if that's what you're referring to) are pretty easy to avoid; you can see them coming before they actually come into play.

I hadn't thought of that for Eldin, though; I suppose that does give it an edge for ranged characters, making it an appropriate counterpick.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I keep confusing it with Bridge of Eldin. I don't know why, sorry.


What about the random canonshots?

In other news, I agree with almost everything on the list.

I'm beginning to think you aren't familiar with the stages at all

 

[Mini Mic]

The whole idea of banning stages is kind of stupid since both players are on the same stage anyway.

 

[ICE27]

hey online tourny? has it started yet let me know i want in

 

[I.T.P]

The whole idea of banning stages is kind of stupid since both players are on the same stage anyway.

and what about specific enviroments which give one character a distinct and unfair advantage over the other?

like cargo or spit your opponent in bridge of eldin, or chain grab them with DDD, or anything of that sort?

what about characters with infinite combos on a wall? are you saying all of these reasons don't warrant a ban?

the point is to make the game as neutral and undamaging to the players as possible.

my questions is this: what about rainbow cruise and PS1? are they counterpickable or neutral?

 

[Doomgaze]

OK I want to make some input on some maps in the grey zones.

Frigate Orpheon

Is a good stage. Very good stage, and you have to be a newb to get trapped under the stage. I mean the warning sound comes on well before the stage turns. It has happened to me that I've got trapped under the stage like once or twice ( first time I played it obviously) and not once since then. At one point there's a wall but the platform moves up real fast so there's no infinite combos going on here. Other than that the stage takes some interesting shapes and mixes them up a bit.

I don't mind to see Frigate as a neutral stage. It should at least be counter pickable.

Halberd

The claw and cannon affect players randomly. Even if they are easy to avoid they still target one player at R A N D O M. This is not a good treat for a competetive map IMO. Also by the slim chance you happen to get caught in it, you will possibly get KOed.

I don't want to see this as a neutral or counter pick stage.

Luigi's Mansion

OK this stage is interesting.. but what goes against it is the walls and ceiling inside the house, to which you can tech which creates the old hyrule-effect. Sure you can destroy the house from outside should someone camp that area but the map overall is just too weird. Low platforms, narrow rooms/low celing.

Definitely not a neutral stage although it can be counter pick.

Bridge of Eldin

Wow this map sucks. Not only does this map promote camping by being very long, it has a big hole in the middle! Say hello to projectiles like lasers and arrows. Use this in a tournament and I believe we will see some serious stalling. To make matters worse this map has walk offs. Walk offs should be banned because of inescapable chaingrabs and edge camping.

Speaking of Walk Offs this leads me to some other grey-zone stages that include them:

Delphino Plaza

Although I like the theme and settings for this map, it has some strange attributes to it as well. Like the moving platform in the middle, under which you can move through. Or the walk offs that appear somewhere in the middle.

Should be counterpick at most.

Castle Siege

This map would have been very fine if it werent for one detail. The room with the statues. Beside the walk offs, the statues in the middle are REALLY annoying. They hinder all kind of approach and projectiles. That's very gay.

Counterpick at best.

And that's all I've got to say right now.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

OK I want to make some input on some maps in the grey zones.


Castle Siege

This map would have been very fine if it werent for one detail. The room with the statues. Beside the walk offs, the statues in the middle are REALLY annoying. They hinder all kind of approach and projectiles. That's very gay.

Counterpick at best.

I don't know that the statues hindering an approach should be considered reason to ban, as that seems more like a reason for counterpick; if you're playing a character like Meta Knight, it would give you a slight advantage as the opponent would have to work around an obstacle, which just hinders regular strategy for the time being.

 

[Deleted member]

imo this list is perfect, every1 needs to shut up and stop crying

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Nuetral means....It's equal to everyone? Because honestly Final Destination kills alot of my tactics off, that multi-platforms allow. I think if you DO ban alot of those stages, you will basically limit what characters are good. No stage will give all characters equal footing, and no not even the super flat ones.

Isn't adjustment to the enviroment a skill? What if your characters one prowess is enviromental adjustment, and you just threw everyone on the plainest stage possible? I think being careless will unbalance the game, pretty quickly.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Probably a silly question, but what is a counterpick and what kind of stages are good candidates for it?

 

[HK-50]

I still did not get an anwser to my question about making Eldin and Circuit counterpick except when Dedede is involved. Its better than eliminating the stage completely

I'd also like to know why Pictochat is banned when it doesnt retain any advantages a player has for very long

 

[legendofme]

Banning Shadow Moses is silly. Scrubs.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

most of it looks pretty decent
one thing thougth you said that the melee stage bans are the same
on the SBR rules thread they have:

Random Stage List

Kanto: Pokemon Stadium
Mushroom Kingdom: Rainbow Cruise

Counter Stage List

Dream Land: Green Greens
DK Island: Jungle Japes
Lylat System: Corneria
Planet Zebes: Brinstar

would you guy's mind posting this in the fisrt post just so people are clear on it
Thanxz

 

[Tinkerer]

I keep confusing it with Bridge of Eldin. I don't know why, sorry.


What about the random canonshots?

In other news, I agree with almost everything on the list.

And Orpheon doesn't have any cannons, but thanks for doing your research

 

[Dacvak]

*UPDATE*

Melee stages have been added.
Changes have been made:

• Norfair is now Counterpick
• Green Hill Zone is Banned for singles, and Counterpick for teams.

Please check the first post for more information.

~Dac

 

[LINKaTINK]

Why on earth is Rainbow Cruise a neutral stage for anything, that completely defies the standards for a neutral stage...why? Because its horrible...and moves. Counter-pick sure, but not neutral.

 

[Dacvak]

It was neutral in teams for Melee, sir.

~Dac

 

[ScubaGoomba]

What exactly makes Green Hill pickable as counterpick for teams? The only thing I can think of is that any player that's being Chain Grabbed or otherwise forced off the edge can be freed by a partner. If this is the case, shouldn't all walk-off edges be legal counterpicks for teams?

 

[Dacvak]

Green Hill is still highly in debate. It wasn't fully banned for singles due to the walkoffs, but in fact because it's so unbelievably campy. The walkoffs helped push it into the "banned" section, but really it was a combination of those aspects and the fact that it's just really not a good singles stage.

Since the fighting is focused in the middle, it's decent for teams and counterpick at best, especially since it'll be harder for a DeDeDe to chain grab someone to death. Either way, it's hardly as campy with teams.

I suppose similar arguments could be made for Bridge of Eldin and Mario Circuit, but as of now, those are still banned for teams. GHZ may end up receiving one, as well.

~Dac

 

[nrowdevastates]

i think tha bridge of eldin should be a legal stage or at LEAST a counter pick stage. what makes it banned in the first place? i mean once the middle is broken you can seriously mess with players with the middle missing. i think its a good stage and should at least be counter pick. but thats just my opinion

 

[Sharky]

>.>

Can we like...put dedede chaingrabbing in all-caps max size on the top of the first post? Please? Cause honestly, almost every other post is about walk-off stages and why they should be unbanned. Again, >.> Infact, >____>

on a lighter note, I hope dac's aim sn on page 3 isn't serious =P

 

[thebasman]

What's the rationale for banning Hanenbow? Definitely not a neutral, but I don't see any immediate reason to ban it completely.

 

[Yuna]

i think tha bridge of eldin should be a legal stage or at LEAST a counter pick stage. what makes it banned in the first place? i mean once the middle is broken you can seriously mess with players with the middle missing. i think its a good stage and should at least be counter pick. but thats just my opinion

You pick anyone you like who isn't Fox or Falco or has more than 2 jumps/is Peach.

I'll pick Fox or Falco. Bridge goes off, we're on opposite sides, I'll spam lasers and all you can do is get hit by them or shield some of them or try to jump them (but I'll just start jumping and lasering). If you try to make it to the other side of the stage, then I'll edgeguard you (also, Falco's lasers still stun, remember?). Any characters with good projectiles can take advantage of this.

It's banned because it promotes camping.

 

[webrunner]

Delfino Plaza is the very definition of a neutral stage. It's more neutral than Final Destination, in that it doesn't cater to ONE imbalance the entire match. No matter what character you use, you'll have parts that'll be advantageous and parts that will be disadvantageous. Final Destination gives an advantage to some characters and not others.

Each part of Delfino Plaza is different, and that's what makes it so balanced- it changes. Other so-called neutral stages DONT so they're actually not very neutral at all.

There's a prevailing idea that final destination is the ultimate in balance, but that's not actually the case. Vertical characters, and characters who make use of terrain more than others (such as Snake) have a distinct disadvantage, since their playstyles are designed around there being platforms, at least. But then, some characters (like Fox) are better given just FD, so a stage with platforms becomes more of a problem to them. Some characters have great moves that work wonders when you've got walkoffs, some characters work better when you're in a floating platform situation (flyers and characters with good spikes, for instance). No layout can cater to everyone.

The solution is a stage like Delfino Plaza, that at different times, DOES cater to everyone. There are no hazards, just varying terrain. And that terrain does vary, so that every character has their chance to shine (get), instead of being at an advantage/disadvantage the entire map.

It's those things that people think that make it a counterpick - the walkoffs, the changing, the water - that makes it pretty much the first truly neutral smash brothers stage.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

What is a counterpick stage and when is it used?

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Why exactly is Shaodw Moses Island banned? If its to do with the walls, weren't true infinites found to be impossible with DI being used on top of them breaking eventually anyway? If its to do with Dedede, well thats an inherant problem with the character itself. Not the stage.

Skyworld, Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Green Hill Zone, seems like really iffy choices too.

I've never agreed with the banning of Big Blue personally, but thats another story.

In all honesty I can't take a list like this seriously, we have MORE banned stages than playable stages. Next to zero hazards to speak of in a fighting game where avoiding hazards and platforming are a inherant part of the game. When you have less playable stages than playable ones you should really be thinking about whether the game in question is even competitive anymore. The way of thinking is becoming dangerously scrubby...

 

[amished]

You pick anyone you like who isn't Fox or Falco or has more than 2 jumps/is Peach.

I'll pick Fox or Falco. Bridge goes off, we're on opposite sides, I'll spam lasers and all you can do is get hit by them or shield some of them or try to jump them (but I'll just start jumping and lasering). If you try to make it to the other side of the stage, then I'll edgeguard you (also, Falco's lasers still stun, remember?). Any characters with good projectiles can take advantage of this.

It's banned because it promotes camping.

First off, promoting a valid style of play (no matter how "gay" or annoying it is to the other player) should not be a reason for a ban. Secondly, how easy is it to see the bomb, and therefore knowing that it will blow up. When you know it will blow up, it's not that hard to stay within 1/3rd of a *huge level* vs. anybody.

At least you got the stage right....

I'm also curious as to why Electroplankton is banned as well. Even if you have a tether recovery, there's water at the bottom so you aren't really gimped in that way. (Besides, finding a stage where your opponent has more of a disadvantage is one of the arts of counterpicking).

To Lonely: In most tournaments, it's a best of 3, and the first stage is random from the "neutral" category. Whoever loses the first round of the BO3 can choose any stage they want from the neutral or counterpick stage list. (Whoever loses the previous match basically can have their pick from a multitude of stages to perhaps give them an advantage, or put their opponents main character in a tougher spot. The naming of the counterpicked stage comes before character announcement, so you can choose a different character if you feel the stage is really bad to your character's playstyle.)

 

[Mune]

The lists so far seems fine, but I'm not really sure why Melee Stadium is on your neutral list. Annoying ledges that are pretty buggy, from what I've experience. Why do people insist on letting this stage be neutral?

 

[Yuna]

First off, promoting a valid style of play (no matter how "gay" or annoying it is to the other player) should not be a reason for a ban. Secondly, how easy is it to see the bomb, and therefore knowing that it will blow up. When you know it will blow up, it's not that hard to stay within 1/3rd of a *huge level* vs. anybody.

Then explain why we banned stages because of laser-camping in Melee? Ever wondered why Peach Bomber stalling is banned, yet Fourside also banned (some think it's because of the Peach Bomber)? Because Marth can camp the tower (and Roy to a lesser extent).

Also, what if Fox and Falco hit you in one direction and runs in the other when the bomb goes off?

Apparently, Elektroplankton's water isn't swimable. Because of this, if you meteor someone with a tether and they cannot meteor-cancel using Up B and latching onto a leaf (depending on where on the stage you are, it can be literally impossible), they'll die.

Why exactly is Shaodw Moses Island banned? If its to do with the walls, weren't true infinites found to be impossible with DI being used on top of them breaking eventually anyway? If its to do with Dedede, well thats an inherant problem with the character itself. Not the stage.

Remember all of those stages banned because Fox and Falco could do some really messed up stuff on them? Instead of just banning them? Yeah, so if Shadow Moses Island was banned because of Falco's new infinite or DeDeDe's chaingrab, then it's a very valid reason.

Delfino Plaza is the very definition of a neutral stage. It's more neutral than Final Destination, in that it doesn't cater to ONE imbalance the entire match. No matter what character you use, you'll have parts that'll be advantageous and parts that will be disadvantageous. Final Destination gives an advantage to some characters and not others.

I don't remember, but I don't think Delfino Plaza's edge can be grabbed while in platform mode. One footstool/meteor/spike and anyone with a tether-only recovery will die if they've got ground under them.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Hanenbow/Electroplankton/etc.'s "water" isn't swimmable.