Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[ranmaru]

Yet here I am, doing a re-read. My Friday is wasted. I want to clarify that I do distrust the wagon. Funnily enough, I'm also listening to an undertale metal cover, this is relevant to the game: Another Medium

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I don't have anything nice to say about this game. We have two days.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

SangfroidWarrior

Why is Kary scum?

Sorry to make you wait. I had to re-read for this with the events of toDay in mind. I think that Kary has the possibility to be scum for multiple reasons, but I'm not completely sold that she is scum. (This could be taken as me fence-sitting, I guess(?), but I am leaning more to her being scum than her not being scum, honestly, although it's weaker than it was at the start of the Day). A lot of these I've already somewhat talked about, but these are my reasons in general:

1) Her pushes outside of her push on J have been pretty weak and non-committal (even that one has been kind of weak, IMO), and her reasons for voting people have been pretty weak as well, such as her vote on Koops and Soup.
2) A lot of her posts, especially on D1, talk about disliking specific posts from some people but she doesn't go into them, and she doesn't really attempt to actually talk to the people she has problems with in a lot of these cases (an example of this is her 244)
3) Her vote on J seems kind of opportunistic as she had been throwing suspicion at him for much of the latter half of D1, but she didn't vote him until after you did (this might be because she wasn't in thread until then, but I still find it kind of suspicious)
4) Post 333, where she mentions 4 people (Maven, tHe-Man, Spak, and Soup) that she'd be fine with dying for D1, is one that I have a problem with as well. She doesn't make any big push or try to get anything done although she had seemingly had suspicions of some people throughout the day. From reading her posts, these don't seem like people she'd want to lynch because it didn't seem to me like she had any suspicion on them at all throughout the Day. She later then explains that these people hadn't done enough. She also doesn't really stick to these, either, as her views have changed by her 424. She then votes Koops and Rake later in the Day even though neither of these people were in her lynch pool.

Tl;dr - Most, if not all, of her pushes have been weak and it seems like she doesn't really commit to them, even at the start of them; she doesn't really push people from my perspective, simply commenting on things and not really talking to the people (especially true D1); her vote on J seems opportunistic, like she didn't want to commit unless somebody else did even though she had been throwing suspicion at him for a while; and, from the last point, in general her reads and pushes just seem kind of... maybe faked, or at least not thought through, is the sense that I get. All of these things put together make me really find her suspicious, which is why I think that she's likely scum. In general, there's a lot of her posts where I just don't get any sense of town-intent.

Yet here I am, doing a re-read. My Friday is wasted. I want to clarify that I do distrust the wagon. Funnily enough, I'm also listening to an undertale metal cover, this is relevant to the game: Another Medium

I'm doing somewhat of a re-read. If I'm not dead after raiding that's what I'll be doing more of.

We also only have, what, 2 days left? It's looking like a J lynch is a pretty big possibility, and there's only 2 people on Kary currently, me and J. Besides J, we have... what, Rake, maybe? This game just makes me sad, and it seems like we're having a repeat of D1. No fun, IMO. Anyway, I have to go. I'll be in and out if people have questions or comments or anything.

 

[ranmaru]

Dislike Kary's Spak direction intensely.

This especially, I feel you forget. Think back to that, and elaborate on this for me. We'll get into how J responded in a bit, but I feel this is more important right now. (This is part of a re-read and I want you to go into this)

 

[ranmaru]

I do really like that second point though, so I'll give you that one. Do you think joey's reads are surface too ? Why wouldn't he hop on my wagon as scum ? I'm a pretty easy target and there's tons of people with 0 explanation on me, wouldnt be hard to see me gone

I don't understand this logic in conjunction with Rake's earlier push on me today. Yet I'll give him a chance to explain since it has other factors involved with it. Considering how Joey flipped third party, I would say this logic is faulty. What I really want to know, from where you thought I'd only pick main/obvious targets. (I have picked subtle targets before and have aqcuired a guilty from that)

 

[ranmaru]

In general, I think Sang and Spak are probably town. I have Gheb and Ranmaru at lean town.

What changed from having Spak in your 'get rid of' list to probably town? Why didn't you mention He-man? Thoughts on Rake's vote on J?

 

[ranmaru]

I won't lie, I'm getting the distinct feeling your Kary push and your entire Spak premise is full of it.

Tell me, what is your read on Kary seperate from J's argument. Also, the underlined isn't something telling of alignment. I feel like you have confirmation bias. Finally, talk to me about Gheb. I don't remember you actually commenting on my case.

 

[ranmaru]

If someone can properly explain why the Kantrip vs J interaction included a scum (before we knew Kantrip was town) and convince me of that, I'm down for this J train.

The person who said that is scum. You should join the wagon I'm on. I'll explain it in my next post.

 

[ranmaru]

Some reads:

I feel Gheb has been playing safe, and sniping from the sidelines. He has not directly pushed Spak, but he has indirectly disliked him. Agreeing with Koop's Spak comment:#84. His D1 lynch picks are based on 'being better than Rake', which is a defense. Gheb has dropped them since then. His move from all that to J doesn't make sense from a townie point of view. It seems to be founded on a subtle omgus, rather than finding something suspicious of J's play, and a nitpick. His vote still remains in my heart, out of place. I don't understand why he'd have a problem with people re-thinking their reads on Rake, because it is a good thing to re-evaluate reads. Gheb had been defending Rake D1 and gave picks that were *better than Rake* and now is confused as to why people are not on him. His reasoning to use that is backwards, encouraging omgus.

Kary is scum because her early game, was weak as Sang explains. Her vote on Soup, was weak and opportunistic. She never really asks about J's vote early on, she just talks about (**** I just called J a her...) his defense post to Kantrip and states it is overblown. No hard stance however. In her #333, she doesn't even mention J, until after Sang states that J isn't being like himself. Kary's push on J doesn't seem like she's confident on J being scum, but just annoyed that J had scumread her and asking about it today instead of YesterDay. I also get the feeling Kary used that faulty argument that I wouldn't hammer simply to take advantage of Rake being in a crappy position.

Sang is pretty townie to me because all game she is thinking of every avenue, for example, Gheb's point that Spak may be trying to hard.

~ Gheb ~ Is the gamefaqs thing the only thing that's stuck out to you about Spak's posts? Please explain, regardless.

Is one observation I liked. I feel that Sang is thinking in many directions and is reconsidering things such as her Rake push, which I find townie.

Considering Rake, most of his picks come off as Omgus, straight omgus. If he's town, he's playing pretty badly and then yells at people for wagoning him. I would say next time, give reasoning for push. Then, again, his push on me reeks. Especially considering his logic in this quote. If he is town, we'd know that Kantrip was killed by a Robot, which doesn't help us because: Scum would fake claim anyway.

Red Ryu. I'll drop my point of him. I'll try to look at more of his play, and hope he can at least see eye to eye with me. I know he's disagreed with me in the past and I just hope it's the same here. Again, we have run into this problem before, in FEA. (Which promptly came to him scumreading me, when I was right) My response to that is, trust me a litle more. I want you to step back and listen to what I'm saying. I was right on Joey, you weren't.

J, I like, just not as much as sang. He has been active, and has answered people's questions, even though he is holding his cards to his chests. Do remember that Kary was also employing a 'church' to vote aimlessly, and does nothing with it. (And says his early votes are RVS, which is a copout) J has been active, even in RVS.

JD is slight town to me, because he sounds like he believes what he is saying when pushing J, when he is wrong. That's all though. I would like a little more activity from him.

Everyone else is null, needs to be replaced, or useless.

 

[ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Kary

People I want to lynch toDay:

Kary, Gheb

People I'd compromise to:

Rake, Koops

People I want to keep:

Sang, J, JD

Need more content:

Chibo, Spak, RR

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'll respond to this tonight. Well, I mean, it's bull****. But I'll debunk it tonight.

 

[#HBC | J]

Sorry, been MIA this day phase a lot due to holiday shenanigans. I've also been somewhat avoiding this game because every time I look at it I get stumped. I have a wall of people who are asking me to explain reads/what I have been saying which I have been for a while. The biggest thing people are voting me for are "You aren't explaining yourself!" which isn't fair because I have been and when I do it gets nitpicked by various angles because toDay I've been made the push of the day. However, I was hoping even if my slot was pushed there would be some more information presented in toDay, but that is not the case since the wagon has been just throwaway votes and people just wagoning me to wagon someone that isn't them (Or so it seems like based on lack of reasoning) Here's all the vote posts against me:

Vote: J

You ignored two of my posts yesterDay somewhat near the deadline. Imma look them up in a bit so you can see them but you really need to respond to them asap. I have a lot of issues with your slot right now.

ranmaru who is your #2 pick for scum after Gheb?

#HBC | Red Ryu who is your #2 pick for scum after Ranmaru? With reasoning please.

Just to clarify my point about Rake above, what I am trying to say is that I think the waggon was interesting. I don't have my notes with me, but yeah, look at the waggon.

Also, IIRC, Kantrip posted a reads list before he died. That's also something worth looking into.

Ok, I'm out for now.

Vote: J

Vote J
Im bashing my head into a wall with ran.

Ran, tell me how my push on koop was out of place exactly ? What's a "in the right place " push ? Who should i have been pushing exactly ?

Vote: J

I won't lie, I'm getting the distinct feeling your Kary push and your entire Spak premise is full of it.

Going back this whole feud starts when you vote Kary in #271, and Spak takes the opportunity to air his grievances with the Kult of Kary on the next page. Kary gives him a scathing


The only vote on him at all is pure RVS from Koopa on one of the first pages of the game.

From there on you actually don't explain what the Kary position was about, even after Kary quips the push is ***-less and when Sang asks directly in #337





You never got back to it, and actually don't even really give a full explanation on Rake either. The most I could find was you agreeing with a Spak reads list that had Rake included as a "maybe lynch" and directly +1'ing me and Sang in #393.



You hold to that even after the deadline is extended as well, but that's as much as we get.

(Is Rake no longer scum to you? If so why?)

I also think it's time you explain why you've got Spak as your #1 town.

Vote: J

When looking at these votes, the only ones who gave reasonings were Gheb/Ditzy. Gheb was after the fact a bit, but you was engaging me beforehand. Ditzy seemed to arrive at the conclusion naturally and just seemed to pick the side of Kary's arguments over that of mine. Kary seemed to vote me and then add onto his vote continously using my words against her to make her point stronger. Rake simply had no point to make and was just blustery after his vote and is the grimiest of the votes on me. *I feel more passionately about Kary because her reasonings for suspecting me have been as Sang puts it lackluster and opportunistic* Ditzy's push on me with my "Sparky town-read feels full of it" is not analyatical and not looking like at the big picture of what I have been saying and why I have been doing what I'm doing. And then Ryu is just throwing a half-ass Ryu vote.

Honestly, I am just looking at this game and trying to shuffle through what is inactivity, what is laziness, and what is stubbornness. We are ending the Day with what looks like 2 flips since Koopy has not been responding to his prods. I'm thankful Chibo is posting and getting things going on, but I'm stumped to find the whole scum-team because when looking at flip analysis Joey's flip did not do much for us and I believe that's why Kanty was killed as well which is too leave us in the dark with a null slot being killed and to actually also make my slot look worse because there is also no other logical reasons as to why Kanty was killed.

The only two slots I would be okay with getting out of here is Kary and Rake, for toDay's clarity sake. I'm also tired of arguing with Kary because her arguing style is tumultuous to argue against so I'm going to take another route and look at the game differently. I mean, she pretty much comes in and says every point against her is bad and even does that prior to her responses *Look at her posts to Sang/Myself/Ran and you can see that much.* She bashes any attempt to view her in any light of scrutiny and just tries to ad-hominem her way out of things. That is not towny. She is actively scummy in all her points and she does not hold a single solid reason for viewing my slot as scum besides her saying "He isn't FULLY responding" and I'm sorry but this isn't a newbie game and it is not my place to hold her hand through my entire thought process and she should definitely know better considering how long she has played. She also just says my points are "bad" and that's that. Sang and Ran have been pointing this out, yet she continues to do the same to them just saying their points are "bad". Her logic presented in this game so far has been poor and unjustified. She has failed to explain on any level where "Not explaining reads" is scummy. Or how what I have done this entire game is "Bull****" as she has eloquently put *numerous times*. She has even become desperate with reasons to reach and say that I have been playing to my scum-meta somewhat when that is actually not true. Plus, I have proven time and time again that I know my meta and that it is fluid. It's a weak sprinkle on her push on me that was more of a snowball from a conversation with me that started out as a "Vote for questioning" to a "Vote because of how scummy he is.".

I'm being dead honest, I have been 100% truthful with my thoughts and feelings towards players this game and I have made them known. Some of my thoughts have been vague and some of my thoughts have been an attempt to draw things out of other players, but nowhere have I been deceitful in my actions nor have I been "bloated and full of hot air" as Gheb put it. I am just not leading everyone around and I am sitting trying to observe. Gheb's dislike of my play is something that comes about nearly every game we are in so I am more so letting him go a little bit because I do not expect him to see me as anything, but scummy. I don't really care about that. His reasonings are weak and therefore makes me question him and his pushes have seemed to revolve more on "bad play" over scummy play. That's the problem I have with Gheb is that his focus besides his push on me seemed to revolve around that point. His push on me somewhat makes me like him, but I still feel disgruntled with him overall.

Then we have Rake who has been nothing but a "Re-appear/disappear" act that only comes in to make sure fire is being fanned on any wagon that isn't him. That can be shown with yesterDay when we tried to get his lynch. The only reason his head isn't up on some pike toDay is because Sang has somewhat lost her balls that she had and no one else took up the mantle besides Ran who got shut down by the chorus of "lol sh Ran" from Gheb/Kary/Rake. Speaking of, Ditzy was an avid supporter of that lynch, but seems to have forgotten that which is another weird point. Rake has done nothing this game. I repeat, Rake has done NOTHING this game. Where has Rake scum-hunted? Where has Rake pushed a slot? Where has Rake actually done a physical action of looking for scum and not folding under pressure? I've been the only wagon pushed that has actually tried to use the push to try and figure out the scum on my wagon. Rake has just come in to snipe what he can and then he leaves in a huff. I do not buy this as a TownRake and his play looks grimy as hell. The fact that he lived yesterDay was a pure stroke of luck that Joey decided to go against his wincon, role claim as Indy, and self-vote himself out of the game. He has floated under the radar throughout this Day-Phase because the limelight has been shown on me. This is why I don't get Sang's insistence of returning him to the null-pile or anyone else's for that matter. Rake has done nothing to make it so people should view him as town.

This is aggravating to actually hash out that quite a few players level of analysis is so low that I am the one being scrutinized when that of other players have been actively scummy and not scum-hunting, but playing the nitpick game and getting away with it since there are no bulldogs in this game and weak reasoning seems to be the key ingredient to get my lynch. Since the day only has 46 hours or so I know that my lynch is looking like the most likely due to a hodge-podge of reasonings, but when my lynch happens I'm going out with a big ole towny bang like any good towny should. I think the lynch should be between Kary and Rake due to their actions and to be honest why is it that a slot such as Rake, which everyone agrees is scummy, remains as one alive or has ZERO votes toDay. Mine and Kary's arguments aside, it is a little flabberghasting.

I'm gonna think some more as to the best course of action, but from my PoV my lynch will lead to a slam-dunk win from Scum through the domino effect that I feel is more than likely going to happen with the playerbase and the types of players we have in this game. I want Kary because I feel more about that, but I am finding very little sense to why my vote is not on Rake and why I haven't been HBC'ing his ass out of this game. This was a stream of consciousness post that actually formed the more and more I thought about this game and the more I am thinking about the state of the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1) Her pushes outside of her push on J have been pretty weak and non-committal (even that one has been kind of weak, IMO), and her reasons for voting people have been pretty weak as well, such as her vote on Koops and Soup.
2) A lot of her posts, especially on D1, talk about disliking specific posts from some people but she doesn't go into them, and she doesn't really attempt to actually talk to the people she has problems with in a lot of these cases (an example of this is her 244)
3) Her vote on J seems kind of opportunistic as she had been throwing suspicion at him for much of the latter half of D1, but she didn't vote him until after you did (this might be because she wasn't in thread until then, but I still find it kind of suspicious)
4) Post 333, where she mentions 4 people (Maven, tHe-Man, Spak, and Soup) that she'd be fine with dying for D1, is one that I have a problem with as well. She doesn't make any big push or try to get anything done although she had seemingly had suspicions of some people throughout the day. From reading her posts, these don't seem like people she'd want to lynch because it didn't seem to me like she had any suspicion on them at all throughout the Day. She later then explains that these people hadn't done enough. She also doesn't really stick to these, either, as her views have changed by her 424. She then votes Koops and Rake later in the Day even though neither of these people were in her lynch pool.

Two things:

1.) I think a lot of this reasoning applies to J as much, if not more, as to Kary
2.) Why did it take you so long to reach the scum!Kary conclusion? Virtually all of these points applied yesterDay already!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] I believe that's why Kanty was killed as well which is too leave us in the dark with a null slot being killed and to actually also make my slot look worse because there is also no other logical reasons as to why Kanty was killed.

And just what the **** are you bringing this up for? Nobody has ever mentioned Kantrip's NK as a point this whole game. There's zero reason for you to make a point out of it except to muck things up with NA WIFOM.

[...]no one else took up the mantle besides Ran who got shut down by the chorus of "lol sh Ran" from Gheb/Kary/Rake.

Citation needed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rake, Kary and Gheb are your top 3 scum reads then, yes?

#HBC | J

Answer this please. A simple 'yes' or 'no' is enough.

 

[#HBC | J]

You have much better things to do then quibble about bringing up NK WIFOM.

Getting to your other thing.

 

[#HBC | J]

#HBC | J

Answer this please. A simple 'yes' or 'no' is enough.

No. Rake/Kary, yes. You, a lean.

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't see too much of a difference but w/e.

Not sure if / where I should respond to Ran's 'case'. A lot of that is just personal/subjective interpretation of what I do presented as if it were fact. Stuff like "he doesn't seem to care about finding scum" just doesn't help the case. It's not something one can objectively argue for/against. He essentially summarizes my play from his subjective pov but most of the stuff he posts don't even qualify as scumtells. I'll probably leave it at that for now until Ran starts to make his points less vague and more specifically respondable.

~ Gheb ~

This should suffice.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So you think it's very likely / plausible that the entire scumteam attacked Spak yesterDay pretty much all at once and you think it's plausible that they tried to shut down Ran in unisono toDay?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

~ Gheb ~

This should suffice.

Yeah, no.

Attempting to debunk somebody's case and 'shutting somebody down by the chorus of "lol Sh Ran"' aren't exactly the same thing. I've let Ran alone to do his thing all game until me he made his 'case' ... what of it anyway? If I had just plain ignored it [which I honestly should've done but that's neither here nor there right now] people would've held that against me too.

 

[#HBC | J]

Did I say that? I am saying that I am reading those actions are scummy. I think Kary and Rake are scummy due to other independent actions combined with their attempt on Sparky. Sparky was a minor point which I don't get why has been blown up to seemingly be the only reason I am viewing certain slots as scum and no one here has even pointed out why Sparky should even be looked out or why he isn't town. People, like you, have just said that he is playing badly and "it's fair to see him as scummy" which gives anyone an out on that slot if they were to choose to lynch him. Why would you allow other players to be given that leeway unless you believe those who pushed Sparky are leaning town for you?

Yeah, no.

Attempting to debunk somebody's case and 'shutting somebody down by the chorus of "lol Sh Ran"' aren't exactly the same thing. I've let Ran alone to do his thing all game until me he made his 'case' ... what of it anyway? If I had just plain ignored it [which I honestly should've done but that's neither here nor there right now] people would've held that against me too.

So you are nitpicking my choice to be a little creative with my wording with "chorus of "lol Sh Ran"". And that is not true at all that you "let Ran do his own thing" because he only just started playing the game this DayPhase and 24 hours into the end of yesterDay so you're over-exaggerating that.

Honestly, you never did respond to it, but that's not a semantics battle I'm not going into.

Speaking of honesty, do you honestly believe that I am scum and that the wagon on me is majorly town?

 

[ranmaru]

Kary's instant rebuttals seems like an impulse to instantly prove himself innocent by coming across as confident that the person arguing is wrong, therefore trying to appear townie.

#HBC | Red Ryu : You are seriously voting on the counter wagon to Kary? Come now, we need to talk. (Later in the day) Talk to me about J. You disliked Kary, don't get distracted. Please.
Shun Goku Satsu Rake : Stop and smell the roses. Then realize your scumreads are all omgus. Talk to me about Kary and Gheb.
Spak : Get in here, need your input on current events.

Good night.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This especially, I feel you forget. Think back to that, and elaborate on this for me. We'll get into how J responded in a bit, but I feel this is more important right now. (This is part of a re-read and I want you to go into this)

I didn't forget, new content happened.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Hey Rake. Talk to me. Read on Kary and Gheb?

Kary's town, i still dont see scum intent from gheb and some of his ideas have been the type of neck out that i dont assoicate with scum, im trying to rread though because i feel the game is owed another one at this point

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I don't understand this logic in conjunction with Rake's earlier push on me today. Yet I'll give him a chance to explain since it has other factors involved with it. Considering how Joey flipped third party, I would say this logic is faulty. What I really want to know, from where you thought I'd only pick main/obvious targets. (I have picked subtle targets before and have aqcuired a guilty from that)

What exactly don't you understand about it lol ?
Also, i didn't exactly know he'd flipped third party yet lol

 

[Spak]

Yes, I like Gheb this game. Has he been defending me?

Yes. If you look back in the game, Gheb has been defending you WAY more than he has defended any other slot.

I'm somewhat indifferent towards toDay's lynch choice. Mainly because there's a ****load of slots that I think can just ... die. Its basically Sang, Kary and Kantrip that I think have actually contributed enough to 'deserve' making it past toDay. Past that I honestly don't care much whether it's Adam, Koops, Rake, Maven, soup or Spak that goes. Chances are that I will just blatantly sheep whatever lynch actually turns out to be likely to happen.

Here, Gheb included Kary as one of the slots who have contributed enough to stay in the game, while at this point of the game Kary had been in RVS, left for three days, came back, and was moderately active for two days. After being inactive for about half the game, why did Kary's name come to Gheb's mind while he was thinking about who the most active players were?

In addition, he told me to shut up when you were denying valid points I was making and ended the conversation early:

Hey Spak, care to do something relevant? Nobody gives a single **** about Kary's church thing, nobody joined it and even Kary himself never actually did anything with it. Amount of people who took note of it / took it serious: zero.

Why do you bring it up again?

And J why he thinks Kary's vote on Soup is bad

What.

Like, what are even you talking about? What's wrong with Joey and Kary being on soup? What is wrong with specifically them two being on soup? Is Kantrip / Ryu being on them OK? What's wrong with people voting Koops? That post sucks on so many levels tbh.

While this is all the explanation from the vote we got from Kary:

Vote: Soup

soup gives soup a bad name.

Gheb has pretty much stopped that since early game, but it's still there and noticable.

#3 This is just bull****. Spak came after me and I tried to talk him down gently.

I wouldn't use the word "gently", but it's a fair point that I initiated the conversation.

Can we get some quotes to back that up? First and only truly anti-Spak post I saw was from Koopa during RVS, and deriding him purely for being off-topic (he was). Everything else has just been requests for him to stop focusing on the church aspect of the game.

Koops voted for me mid-D1, but other than that, I've not gotten voted. I don't consider RVS as an anti-anyone phase unless they really screwed up.

As for Revival of Dgames mafia thing, I try not to use meta to justify stances, especially since there's the possibility of people changing their playstyles. Then again, meta is what makes me nervous about J (and I think it's part of the reason I'm wavering on him, because I'm paranoid).

He was also buddying me hard in RoDG (where he was scum).

In general, whether J is 'making things up' is open for debate- but for example you will recall J accused me of 'hiding' this game- this strikes me as nonsense and buzzwords dressed up as though it means something.

OK then, let's turn this around; do you think J is trying to paint you in a negative light, do you think he's just tunneling, or is there another reason you think he's saying you're hiding?

By the way, this is to everyone, we thinking 2 scum or 3 scum? (Since we had an indy flip)

I'd assume 3 (or 2 and a traitor), since 2 scum seems a bit low for a game of 13.

Rake may be a different story [but I don't care much because I wouldn't object to his lynch] but it's not like Kary and I haven't tried to talk to Spak about it first. What you're trying to slander as 'semi-berating' him was giving him a chance to respond without making him look worse - he refused to take that chance so the only one who has made him look worse was Spak himself.

You and Kary? I don't remember you directly addressing me about anything other than the reads at the end of D1 (which I explained) and you telling me to shut up because you didn't like the pressure I was giving Kary.

I have to go now, but will probably be back later today; I have two final projects and have to study for a final (senior exceptions for the rest of them), so I apologize for being more inactive than usual.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Did J explain his D1 vote yet?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary's instant rebuttals seems like an impulse to instantly prove himself innocent by coming across as confident that the person arguing is wrong, therefore trying to appear townie.

I have to laugh at this. Should I try and appear scummy when people call me out? Of course I am trying to prove them wrong- they ARE wrong. Maybe you didn't get the memo. I'm town.

 

[ranmaru]

Did J explain his D1 vote yet?

That was explained in his #865. Why did you ignore the vote D1? (in the next page)

 

[#HBC | Kary]

#874

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Okay so having read up I get the impression that J has decided to skip over actually answering people's questions. I find the scare-mongering 'If I die town is doomed' pretty funny because J's one actual contribution has been to try and lynch me, and I'm town. Anyways, I'm just going to explain something briefly:

The argument isn't that 'not explaining things is scummy'. The argument is, simply, that if you are town, then there is a reasonable townie explanation for why you did anything you did.

So why didn't J explain his read on me during Day 1?
Why, if J felt I was scummy, did he wait until mid D2, being waggoned, to say anything?
Why did J vote me 'to get my attention' and then proceed to ignore me for the rest of the Day?

Either J can explain these things, or he can't- because he's scum.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm down to lynch J sorry Ran but Kary improved since before when I did lothe the Spak direction.

 

[ranmaru]

Can you at least tell me why, what has you so strongly against J?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Tl;dr - Most, if not all, of her pushes have been weak and it seems like she doesn't really commit to them, even at the start of them; she doesn't really push people from my perspective, simply commenting on things and not really talking to the people (especially true D1); her vote on J seems opportunistic, like she didn't want to commit unless somebody else did even though she had been throwing suspicion at him for a while; and, from the last point, in general her reads and pushes just seem kind of... maybe faked, or at least not thought through, is the sense that I get. All of these things put together make me really find her suspicious, which is why I think that she's likely scum. In general, there's a lot of her posts where I just don't get any sense of town-intent.

So when I vote soup on page 7 citing problems with his play (#244), I'm not pushing him?
When J ignores me for an entire Day phase, and I respond by voting him, I'm opportunistic?
My reads are 'maybe faked' -- but maybe not?

Honestly Sang, if you want to read me as scum, I can't stop you. If you're going to bend over backwards to try and see everything I do in a negative light, there's only so much patience I have to explain how wrong you are.

I mean, if you insist on having a blind spot for J and just give him the benefit of the doubt, I'm not surprised you think I'm scum. I mean, you probably think he comes across as 'genuine'. Don't listen to him- look at his play.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm down to lynch J sorry Ran but Kary improved since before when I did lothe the Spak direction.

Make it happen, please. The other option is Rake and I think the J flip will probably answer that question anyways.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote: J

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary is scum because her early game, was weak as Sang explains. Her vote on Soup, was weak and opportunistic. She never really asks about J's vote early on, she just talks about (**** I just called J a her...) his defense post to Kantrip and states it is overblown. No hard stance however. In her #333, she doesn't even mention J, until after Sang states that J isn't being like himself. Kary's push on J doesn't seem like she's confident on J being scum, but just annoyed that J had scumread her and asking about it today instead of YesterDay. I also get the feeling Kary used that faulty argument that I wouldn't hammer simply to take advantage of Rake being in a crappy position.

I ask myself why I am responding to this when we both know you won't listen. You expect me to have a strong stance on J when all the time J has been avoiding things, and then busy trying to make me a target (rather than discussing things). You call my push on soup opportunistic but people agree that his play was scummy and I have said what I disliked about it. If I was really trying to take advantage of Rake, wouldn't I just be pushing for his lynch? It would be a lot easier than J. I don't think you are thinking this read through, amigo. I think you just trust J too much.

Here's a better question, why is J town? This:

J, I like, just not as much as sang. He has been active, and has answered people's questions, even though he is holding his cards to his chests.

Is not a good enough reason.

 

[ranmaru]

~ Gheb ~ :

Talk to me. Are you ok with this J wagon? Do you think it is legitimate? What is your read on Ryu?

#HBC | Red Ryu :

please answer my question man. Please, I implore you. Why are you not even trying hard and mostly just voting with reasonless votes man. I am not even convinced you are convinced man, please explain. It seems like how you voted Soup for being 'the best lynch' when you didn't even sound like you were confident about it.


#HBC | Kary :

I don't think you avoiding his vote early D1 with that reasoning is valid. Compare your play to J's, you were hopping votes and didn't use your church proactively, while J was active, talking, questioning, and to me was looking more at intent than you were, who seemed like just trying to focus on one minor detail (and agreement with Joey, with something that was obviously BS, yet you agreed with it) for Soup, and same for J. You are focusing solely on a vote (that he explained) instead of his whole play and I find that suspicious. If you have responded to his vote, and pushed harder against him D1, instead of going along with whatever wagon, and instead of giving some unsubstantiated picks: #333 given some actual picks like J for you today, then I'd consider your position. I agree with Ryu that you seemed to improve but your D1 play remains, and I am not convinced by your case on J. Talk to me about everything else besides his vote, show me more evidence. I will say that if Rake were to flip scum, that I'd consider You v J TvT. Do you think there is a chance of that and J having a misunderstanding? Because if you ARE town I want you to tell me what you think of the J wagon. Do you think it's legitimate?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Yes. If you look back in the game, Gheb has been defending you WAY more than he has defended any other slot.

Firstly, why do you ONLY ever comment on stuff to do with me? You have a problem.

Secondly, you're reaching.

OK then, let's turn this around; do you think J is trying to paint you in a negative light, do you think he's just tunneling, or is there another reason you think he's saying you're hiding?

Well he's trying to lynch me. I don't know why that involves appealing to abstract nonsense.[/QUOTE]

 

[#HBC | Kary]

ranmaru why is J town?