Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[Jdietz43]

@#HBC | J: What was your impetus for voting Kary at this particular moment? Is it literally just the thoughts in your vote post wrt how his thoughts on you have been conveyed in #843?

 

[Jdietz43]

Alright. I finished a re-read. A complete re-read.

Well Sparky has been receiving flak from a lot of slots this game that much is clear and it's from the opposite side of the fence I stand with on most issues which has been the party of you/Kary/Rake/Joey and Joey was scum so I'm chalking that up to a correct statement on the scummies. I should have been more clear. The people who have been giving me bad vibes throughout the game also seem to be the ones who are looking at Sparky (when this post was made) and creating unnecessary comments of derision towards his slot. You continue to semi-berate the slot saying that he should focus on things that don't pertain to what you deem as "useless" and talk about other things. At the time, the flak I was describing was unnecessary comments and also ways to try and make Sparky look worse.

I read his post the complete opposite way based on his intentions and that is where I felt he was actually coming across as harder town when everyone else was claiming for his head. However, I let the situation continue on without saying much besides that post you quotes so I would not taint the papertrail. It led me to like Ryu more since he came in having a similar train of thought as well and said the Sparky look was meh. It also kept me firm in my believes that there is scum in the pile of Rake/Kary/Gheb which is something I have been on all game almost now especially with my added affirmation with a Joey flip still feel passionate about. The Sparky debacle is something I have been watching a reading because the more he posts the stronger I am in my Sparky town-read and I feel the early attempts to make him look worse are that of scum intentions in the pile of you/Kary/Rake.

J are you 100% with this?

I re-read the beginning of the game all the way now, and I don't think it's fair to amount what Spak's getting as "flak". No one voted him except Koopa in D1. The rest I've seen is both Gheb and Kary telling Spak up-front that his tunnel for Kary based on the RVS Church is pointless (it honestly is) and be largely ignored in return by Spak. They didn't seem like attacks, just the literal correct thing to do when someone is tunneling something that isn't worthwhile.

(And if you're honestly trying to tell me you're verifying these party line suspicions because an apathetic to the point of voting himself INDY Joey was on Spak then I don't know what to tell you other than you should definitely know better on how to treat an indy's push on anyone)

I'm getting the feeling throughout my re-read that you're basing a good portion of your reads list on Spak, and your Spak read on not much other than affirmation that he's town over scum when he dumbs

 

[Jdietz43]

3.) Your arguing with Sparky in the beginning read as more you trying to paint Sparky in a negative light rather than trying to decipher if he was town or scum which leads me to believe you are scum and were looking to make Sparky look like a patsy for an easy ML and it seemed other players were going along with you. I know you were the player that orchestrated the major Sparky dislike and therefore I dislike you as well. Sparky to me is probably my highest town-read and your push on him was bad and lacked looking at intent of discussion or the why behind his actions.

Can we get some quotes to back that up? First and only truly anti-Spak post I saw was from Koopa during RVS, and deriding him purely for being off-topic (he was). Everything else has just been requests for him to stop focusing on the church aspect of the game.

*Your Sparky push and your J push have a similar skeleton of "They were looking at me, so I am looking at them". I do not believe you to have that big of an ego where you cannot believe some people are looking at you as scummy so I find your pushes to be self-absorbed and also leaning more to look like you are attacking those who could be a threat to you possibly getting lynched.

Same on this, I didn't see any posts from Kary that overtly pushed the idea of SpakScum or even voted him. As far as I can tell, there is no such push (from any party); Ranmaru quoted every single one of Kary's early votes in #472 and there isn't a Spak vote either.

5.) Your interactions with other people are not those that you are seeming to use to look at them objectively and see whether they are scum or not. They are more looking at it to see that you are correct or "logical" in that regard and not actually looking at people to see where they are scum. Your intentions do not come across as that of a towny. This much can be seen in your most recent conversation with Sang.

Underlined: Why and in what parts? (Quotes are worth a thousand words)

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

ahhh the old if not one than the other. Classic

Do you have any actual thoughts/responses to that post?

I did mention Koops vs Rake, but I didn't say it was T v T. I asked whether anyone thought that. I found their interaction interesting because they were each scumreading the other. I am on the fence about both slots at the moment, they have points in both columns in my opinion. The reason I brought it up was because I find it hard to believe both are scum. Am I right in saying you think they might be?

Has that changed your mind any into toDay? Do you think Koopa's absence is telling of anything or just null?

What matters is that all of a sudden people just don't push him anymore when the only reason he's alive in the first place is the fact that a scumbag claimed. I mean, come one dude, how the hell does it make sense that nobody has brought up his name as a lynch candidate for toDay yet when you look at these facts?

So, I was thinking about this and I do actually have some problems with his claim. Rake's roleclaim has nothing inherently town in it, from my perspective. It could go either way, as it could be useful for town but it could also be very useful for scum. With him suggesting a mass roleclaim from people, there may be something fishy going on here. Also, but to a lesser extent/reason of worry, it was done following Soup's, and both his and Soup's reactions to being waggoned (although Soup's wasn't really a huge wagon at the time), are very similar. I don't really think it's a counter-claim, as Kanty brought up yesterDay, but something around it makes me uncomfortable.

how can Ran be scum when he didn't hammer you yesterDay?

This is a logical fallacy, in my opinion, as there's no reason that there couldn't be a reason for Ran not to hammer. How does this inherently make Ran not scum? If he had done that, it might have looked pretty scummy. What would your opinion be if one or the other flipped scum?

Also, can you talk to me more about your J and Dietz reads?

With Joey and Kary being on SoupMaru, I had them as scum-reads and especially after Joey flips my gut was founded.

J, I don't really understand what you're saying with this. Joey flipped indy, did he not? How does this connect to the others? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

#HBC | Red Ryu - I have a few questions for you. 1) Do you still believe that Ran claiming roleblock was fake? If so, why? And, where did the basis come from? 2) Can you elaborate on some of your reads for me, specifically your scum reads? 3) Can you explain your Koopa vote?

ranmaru - You said that you would look into Kanty and JD because you didn't have a problem with Rake but now he's your main scum read? I think you already kind of explained this, but I still don't really understand the logic.

@Shun Goku Satsu Rake - Did you ever explain your vote on J?

@TheKingofKoopas - Where you at?

 

[Jdietz43]

Vote: J

I won't lie, I'm getting the distinct feeling your Kary push and your entire Spak premise is full of it.

Going back this whole feud starts when you vote Kary in #271, and Spak takes the opportunity to air his grievances with the Kult of Kary on the next page. Kary gives him a scathing

You don't understand what you're talking about. I have explained it already. If you want to keep wasting your time, go ahead.

The only vote on him at all is pure RVS from Koopa on one of the first pages of the game.

From there on you actually don't explain what the Kary position was about, even after Kary quips the push is ass-less and when Sang asks directly in #337

Since my vote should be on someone, here's a little insight to who I am looking at currently.

Vote: Kary

Okay, but can you explain, please? And, like, actually explain? You and gheb both have been very closed and diplomatic with your answers (Gheb more-so, which you pointed out, but still). And, while I understand there may be reasons behind it, we're getting dangerously close to deadline and I'd like some explanation.

SangfroidWarrior I promise you can hold me to my Kary read, but I'm just realizing the deadline is tomorrow night. I'm more than okay with the Rake push and it actually has my support as well.

Unvote
Vote: Rake

You never got back to it, and actually don't even really give a full explanation on Rake either. The most I could find was you agreeing with a Spak reads list that had Rake included as a "maybe lynch" and directly +1'ing me and Sang in #393.

Moving on, once Ryu gets acclimated with the game, we seem to be having two more replacements coming into the game (for tHe-Man because another prod and they are out by rules and they seem to have no evidence of coming and playing and one for soup) so I feel a lunch in the pool of Ryu/tHe-man/soup would not lead to a good paper trail sans that of maybe soup. I want a lynch from an alive player who has given opinions and who I can work with paper trail wise.

That's why I lean heavily on lynching Rake for quite a few reasons stated by Ditzy and Sang who are two town reads of mine and also Rake is one of the slots that net the highest probability of flipping scum toDay.

So yeah, 24 hours to get 3 more votes so leggo unless someone wants a better option that isn't Sparky then I'm fine as well. Id compromise on Soup of the offer was good, but I'm set on my stance of let's lynch someone here.

You hold to that even after the deadline is extended as well, but that's as much as we get.

(Is Rake no longer scum to you? If so why?)

I also think it's time you explain why you've got Spak as your #1 town.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Never mind. I read your post wrong. I actually want you to address the points you liked from my Rake case, since you are starting to waver on him. Who's scum now, Sang?

Right, sorry to keep you waiting on this. There are a few things that I have concerns with about your Rake post, but I do agree with a lot of it/see a lot of it. I'm taking some things out of context here, and I just want to begin with that. I don't want to quote the whole thing or comment on the entirety, but here are the things that stuck with me.

I feel Rake's Koop push is out of place and has no actual basis on finding scum.

This makes sense, considering my main problem with him yesterDay was that his scum reads were on relatively inactive people (Koops kind of included, depending on the part of the Day) and therefore he had no real need or ability to actually work on developing his reads for them. My problem with this now, though, is that it was D1 and there's a possibility (small, IMO, but still there) that he could have seen every other player as town. BUT, I don't think that was true and therefore I am still concerned about that.

This also seems like a lie, trying to blame IRL for why he may be reacting this way.

This bit, and most of your reasonings regarding Rake using AtE, are probably the things I have the most trouble seeing, and I think that part of your reasoning for this is a bit of a stretch. It's more null than scummy to me because we're unable to actually know what's happening IRL. It may be because I'm a bleeding heart and I get upset (worried, maybe?) when other people are angry or upset, but it just doesn't really seem scummy to me. People have IRL things that do really affect how they're playing the game, and I can say that it has been the case with me before, too.

I do agree that his claim is a little weird. I talked about this a bit on my previous post, but it just seems a little odd, the whole thing surrounding his claim. Honestly, as I said previously, my problem with a Rake scum read is that I can see town and scum from him. Although it's not ideal to me, I would be fine with a Rake lynch for toDay.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Vote: Kary

I will be clear and start this by saying I'm using this mostly to pressure Kary more, as I don't feel that my scum read on her is as solid as it was previously, unfortunately. The recent back and forth between J and Kary looks worse for Kary, in my opinion, as it doesn't really address any of the concerns that I had with her. I also get the feeling that she's really just talking to defend herself and not really to further her read on J or to push him more. I can't really explain it, but Kary's responses just seem... lackluster to me. Since this has little chance of actually being SvS, I am attempting to keep an open mind. The more I think about it the more I can see a possibility of J being scum; maybe not fully, but it has dropped my town read on him lower. That being said, my previous points still stand against Kary, and I do think that her play for much of this game lacks town-intent.

#HBC | Kary - You've probably already said this and I apologize if you have, but who are your scum reads outside of J? Why? Could you elaborate anymore on your reasonings to voting J/how his responses affect your view of him?

Jdietz43 - Since we seem to be on opposing sides/viewpoints here, talk to me. Why do you think J is more likely to be scum over Kary? (I see your other posts, but I just want to talk it out with you).

 

[ranmaru]

I will drop the IRL point, as that is true that we can't know what is going on with life. I'll simply say that I think the emotion was out of place, because Rake wasn't invested enough to make such a fuss. Yet This is not the only reason I suspect him. Now, I was looking into JD and Kantrip last night, and came out liking Kantrip even more. I didn't get anything suspicious from JD, yet still checked him since he was a question mark. I don't know why Rake gets the feeling I'd check obvious/main targets instead. I scumread Rake after D1 started, when he started pushing me out of no where. I also felt he started adding reasons to dislike me, instead of looking at the rest of my play. It seems made up on the spot, such as trying to use my concern of Ryu against me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Has that changed your mind any into toDay? Do you think Koopa's absence is telling of anything or just null?

I expect he's just busy. I think it's a trap to read too much into inactivity.

This is a logical fallacy, in my opinion, as there's no reason that there couldn't be a reason for Ran not to hammer. How does this inherently make Ran not scum? If he had done that, it might have looked pretty scummy. What would your opinion be if one or the other flipped scum?

Yes, but surely a scummer is more likely to hammer a townie than not?

I'm not asking Rake because I think it's a killer argument. I'm asking Rake because I want evidence that Rake is actually thinking about and justifying his reads. Rake is in a unique position to evaluate his waggon from yesterDay, but I don't remember him making any reference to it at all.

If Rake flipped town, I wouldn't instant-clear Ranmaru. But I might, for instance, think that Ryu was more likely to be town, because he seemed to be very stubborn in avoiding that waggon.

Also, can you talk to me more about your J and Dietz reads?

I don't like J. His interactions with Kantrip seem kind of distant and non-committal. He eventually coughed up a lynchpool of four players without really explaining how- but then only pushed Rake. He pulls out completely illogical arguments like 'one person in my lynchpool was scum, therefore others in that pool are scum'. And right now he is, frankly, making up things like 'I tried to paint Spak as scum' to justify a vote on me. Altogether I have a hard time seeing the town intent.

Dietz, I liked initially. Then I looked back on D1 and realized he simply had not really done enough. The one thing is that he seemed to have a very strong stance on Rake. I'm not sure whether that's something he really believed, or if he was just confident in their not being any blowback from the Rake lynch. Overall he hasn't posted enough for me to be confident, but in light of his recent responses, I would say I am okay with him for the time being.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I will be clear and start this by saying I'm using this mostly to pressure Kary more, as I don't feel that my scum read on her is as solid as it was previously, unfortunately. The recent back and forth between J and Kary looks worse for Kary, in my opinion, as it doesn't really address any of the concerns that I had with her. I also get the feeling that she's really just talking to defend herself and not really to further her read on J or to push him more. I can't really explain it, but Kary's responses just seem... lackluster to me. Since this has little chance of actually being SvS, I am attempting to keep an open mind. The more I think about it the more I can see a possibility of J being scum; maybe not fully, but it has dropped my town read on him lower. That being said, my previous points still stand against Kary, and I do think that her play for much of this game lacks town-intent.

Why do you expect my argument with J to answer your questions? I already answered your questions. In my opinion, you think I am not being genuine in some non-specific way. There's not a lot I can say against that.

J seems to be taking the spaghetti approach and just throwing various vague and inaccurate things at me to see what sticks. If my responses seem lacking it's because I'm not interested in getting into an overblown argument. If you think J actually has a point, then bring it up. I doubt you can find anything.

What I actually want from J is the same thing I have wanted since Day 1- for J to actually explain his reads in the first place. Not MAGICALLY justify his read then- based on things now.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

#HBC | Kary - You've probably already said this and I apologize if you have, but who are your scum reads outside of J? Why? Could you elaborate anymore on your reasonings to voting J/how his responses affect your view of him?

Right now I am looking at J/Rake/Dietz and I want to lynch one of those three. I think there is a scum somewhere between them, and one of those flips would help open up the game.

The reason J needs attention is because no-one was giving it to him. People are content to hand him a townread because 'he hasn't done anything scummy' when he gives reads with no reasons, and plays very safe.

As scum, J has a history of making up bull**** in Day 1, and then trying to justify it after the fact. If you don't believe me, go and read Revival of Dgames mafia, around page 55. It doesn't matter how much **** J throws at my slot now. If J is town, why did he have to put off explaining his read on me Day 1?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

ranmaru - Okay, emotion being out of place is a possibility (AtE and all, or whatever). As for who you checked, that might just be a personal play preference. I'm still not sold on Rake, but it makes sense.

Yes, but surely a scummer is more likely to hammer a townie than not?

I'm not asking Rake because I think it's a killer argument. I'm asking Rake because I want evidence that Rake is actually thinking about and justifying his reads. Rake is in a unique position to evaluate his waggon from yesterDay, but I don't remember him making any reference to it at all.

If Rake flipped town, I wouldn't instant-clear Ranmaru. But I might, for instance, think that Ryu was more likely to be town, because he seemed to be very stubborn in avoiding that waggon.

Hm... this may be a reason to push Rake more, do you think? To maybe get him to talk more about that and just everything in general? And, a scummer may be more likely to hammer if they've already been given a reason to vote that person. If they haven't, it would put them in more danger for D2 (or whatever following day) because they would be making a target of themselves.

I don't like J. His interactions with Kantrip seem kind of distant and non-committal. He eventually coughed up a lynchpool of four players without really explaining how- but then only pushed Rake. He pulls out completely illogical arguments like 'one person in my lynchpool was scum, therefore others in that pool are scum'. And right now he is, frankly, making up things like 'I tried to paint Spak as scum' to justify a vote on me. Altogether I have a hard time seeing the town intent.

Dietz, I liked initially. Then I looked back on D1 and realized he simply had not really done enough. The one thing is that he seemed to have a very strong stance on Rake. I'm not sure whether that's something he really believed, or if he was just confident in their not being any blowback from the Rake lynch. Overall he hasn't posted enough for me to be confident, but in light of his recent responses, I would say I am okay with him for the time being.

I think, from what you're talking about, more pressure onto J to get him talking more to/about his reads would be a good course. I get that you might be trying to do that, but your interaction with him just seems like you're defending yourself and not questioning him or putting pressure on him, really. What do you mean by "making up things"? What do you think of Dietz's responses to J about his push on you?

Why do you expect my argument with J to answer your questions? I already answered your questions. In my opinion, you think I am not being genuine in some non-specific way. There's not a lot I can say against that.

J seems to be taking the spaghetti approach and just throwing various vague and inaccurate things at me to see what sticks. If my responses seem lacking it's because I'm not interested in getting into an overblown argument. If you think J actually has a point, then bring it up. I doubt you can find anything.

What I actually want from J is the same thing I have wanted since Day 1- for J to actually explain his reads in the first place. Not MAGICALLY justify his read then- based on things now.

I don't really have any questions that can be answered, just some general concerns with your play. I believe that I have stated this before (if I haven't, I am mistaken and I should have), but you only seem to get involved when it directly involves you. You haven't really been scumhunting, just attempting to seem like you are and interacting just enough to maybe get some reads.

Let me explain the lackluster part. I'm not seeing anything from your responses that make it seem to me like you're actually doing anything worthwhile with respect to questioning or scumhunting. But, I understand not wanting to get into an overblown argument.

Right now I am looking at J/Rake/Dietz and I want to lynch one of those three. I think there is a scum somewhere between them, and one of those flips would help open up the game.

The reason J needs attention is because no-one was giving it to him. People are content to hand him a townread because 'he hasn't done anything scummy' when he gives reads with no reasons, and plays very safe.

As scum, J has a history of making up bull**** in Day 1, and then trying to justify it after the fact. If you don't believe me, go and read Revival of Dgames mafia, around page 55. It doesn't matter how much **** J throws at my slot now. If J is town, why did he have to put off explaining his read on me Day 1?

Let's talk about Rake/your scum reads a little bit, as Rake seems to come in, comment a little, and then just leave without actually doing much of anything. You mentioned wanting him to talk about his wagon. Do you think that is scummy that he hasn't? Who do you think would be most likely to be scum/the person to get the game moving forward with their lynch? Why?

As for Revival of Dgames mafia thing, I try not to use meta to justify stances, especially since there's the possibility of people changing their playstyles. Then again, meta is what makes me nervous about J (and I think it's part of the reason I'm wavering on him, because I'm paranoid). Side story tangent: in reference to the game I mentioned way early RVS, J was scum and buddied me (used me as an excuse for something and got caught), and he got my lynched after him because I was connected to him so much. I'm not saying the same thing is happening here, but that's why I'm nervous. But, I do agree that he should have done more with your slot yesterDay.

 

[ranmaru]

Now that J has responded, I'd like to see Gheb and Rake's takes on his responses, since they are 2/3 of his wagon. ~ Gheb ~ @Shun Goku Satsu Rake

@TheKingofKoopas: Where are you? You have been prodded.
DtJ Glyphmoney : Have you read yet?
BarDulL : What is the status on Koops? Please consider replacing Koops if he doesn't respond to his prod.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Sang, you're talking to yourself. If there's something important you want me to answer, let me know.

You say 'Oh no you're not really scumhunting', but I say 'Oh yes I am really scumhunting'- and now we're a pantomime so you'll forgive if I don't take your points seriously.

 

[ranmaru]

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Now that J has responded, I'd like to see Gheb and Rake's takes on his responses, since they are 2/3 of his wagon. ~ Gheb ~ @Shun Goku Satsu Rake

Since when did you become the activity police?

 

[ranmaru]

Why does that matter to you? I'm interested in their thoughts on J, since they are voting him. It'd help me develop my reads on them further.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Why does that matter to you? I'm interested in their thoughts on J, since they are voting him. It'd help me develop my reads on them further.

I thought you were pretty confident that they were scum already?

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

Sang, you're talking to yourself. If there's something important you want me to answer, let me know.

You say 'Oh no you're not really scumhunting', but I say 'Oh yes I am really scumhunting'- and now we're a pantomime so you'll forgive if I don't take your points seriously.

Okay that's fine, but I'm trying to get us talking about other things because I'm getting nowhere with that and I want to get a better read on your slot. The only part of my post that really discusses the "scumhunting" part is some of the second bit and most of the third bit. (The last big part is me just talking to myself, basically, so sorry about that). I have some questions in there that I would like you to discuss, though, so I pulled them out:

Let's talk about Rake/your scum reads a little bit, as Rake seems to come in, comment a little, and then just leave without actually doing much of anything. You mentioned wanting him to talk about his wagon. Do you think that is scummy that he hasn't? Who do you think would be most likely to be scum/the person to get the game moving forward with their lynch? Why?

What do you mean by "making up things"? What do you think of Dietz's responses to J about his push on you?

As an extension of the bolded, you gave one example, but did you have others?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sorry, I'm having kind of a busy week. I'll be free tomorrow afternoon for like the next three days so I'll get into this again.

 

[ranmaru]

I am. I'd still like to see how they respond, though. Also, I'd like to see you respond to Sang, since she asks you about my scumread.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

What do you mean by "making up things"? What do you think of Dietz's responses to J about his push on you?

Well, in the example I mentioned, it is 100% false that I was "trying to paint Sparky in a negative light". To my mind that is a clear cut case of, at the very least, wishful thinking on the part of J.

In general, whether J is 'making things up' is open for debate- but for example you will recall J accused me of 'hiding' this game- this strikes me as nonsense and buzzwords dressed up as though it means something.

As to what Dietz said, at least half of it is sound. In parts it seems to echo Gheb. I also think it is noteworthy that Dietz is pushing J now given they were both voting Rake yesterDay.

Let's talk about Rake/your scum reads a little bit, as Rake seems to come in, comment a little, and then just leave without actually doing much of anything. You mentioned wanting him to talk about his wagon. Do you think that is scummy that he hasn't? Who do you think would be most likely to be scum/the person to get the game moving forward with their lynch? Why?

Rake seems to be playing this game during his morning commute or something. His (relative) low activity doesn't bother me so much as he isn't explaining himself as well as I would like. For instance, his D1 read on Koops I don't have a problem with, but without the context of the rest of his reads, it is hard to make sense of- to evaluate where that read is coming from.
Rake not talking about his waggon, is just a symptom of this 'not enough explanation' in my opinion.

For toDay, I am beginning to think that the best lynch is either J or Rake. Both slots have a reasonable number of connections, and I feel like their interaction is probably TvS, for instance in J being quick to jump on the Rake waggon.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I am. I'd still like to see how they respond, though. Also, I'd like to see you respond to Sang, since she asks you about my scumread.

Okay. What is your opinion of Gheb right now? Has it changed since the start of the Day?

 

[ranmaru]

It hasn't changed, what is the point in asking me this before I get a chance to see him respond?

Why do you have Gheb as lean town, what do you think of my case on him?

 

[BarDulL]

@TheKingofKoopas has been prodded again! If he is prodded one more time, I have a legendary replacement for him.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

It hasn't changed, what is the point in asking me this before I get a chance to see him respond?

Why do you have Gheb as lean town, what do you think of my case on him?

I'm just asking. I feel Gheb has done enough toDay that it might affect your read.

Gheb seems fine to me. I feel like he is making good points. Your case I thought was not very strong, it was a bit of a reach.

 

[Jdietz43]

Jdietz43 - Since we seem to be on opposing sides/viewpoints here, talk to me. Why do you think J is more likely to be scum over Kary? (I see your other posts, but I just want to talk it out with you).

Well, if you haven't read them thoroughly I'd definitely do so, but overall I'm seeing J pushing Kary based on versions of events that didn't happen when I looked back through the game.

It's hollow, and the fact that Kary has become a focus so immediately after the vote shouts OMGUS. He never mentioned Gheb until after Gheb was already voting him either. If he was this concerned about the Gheb/Kary/Rake group as stated I'd expect today's play to show it a little in advance, but so far everything has been reactionary and insinuated as coming from a vantage point where he already saw deep roots in Spak lines of Kary/Gheb/Rake and that it's been an overarching theme he's already thought about, when until now it really hadn't been one in thread. It feels like the entire response to Kary and subsequent vote is retrofitted, not something J has thought of: if he had, why hasn't he interacted with Rake or Gheb either?

Ranmaru did an entire push on Gheb, and me and Ranmaru did a push on Rake and he's been silent about it upon returning; but when Kary coughs at him he's already here making walls. I realize he's not been around very long since he started posting again, but it's very clear he's focusing only on those focusing on him, not on who he says he's focusing. The closest I've seen is responding to direct questions (which is totally warranted based on the time away). When the time came to dig for info on Gheb's case against him, he decided not to ask Gheb more about it to see if he was scum, but instead he asked you if you think the case holds sway in your eyes. And finished the post by pre-emptively throwing shade at you, though you're not on his list. (#840)

(I also don't get where J's priorities are other than pro-Spak forever, which after re-reading, I'm not feeling has good basis either. He's been making it out to be like Spak is someone town who people have been picking on and he's the white knight, when really mostly Spak has been asking people things and being told "no".)

Do you see what I mean? Now, why do you have Karyscum after all this?

 

[Jdietz43]

ranmaru
I don't really have any questions that can be answered, just some general concerns with your play. I believe that I have stated this before (if I haven't, I am mistaken and I should have), but you only seem to get involved when it directly involves you. You haven't really been scumhunting, just attempting to seem like you are and interacting just enough to maybe get some reads.

What do you make of his interaction with me then?

Jdietz43 who is scum besides Rake?

Seriously? Your best guess for who is scum after Rake is 'someone inactive?'

Consider me unimpressed.[/QUOTE

Well, can you give me a bad idea? Is that whole pool really just a crapshoot?

 

[Jdietz43]

@TheKingofKoopas has been prodded again! If he is prodded one more time, I have a legendary replacement for him.

(Do you have a legendary replacement for Glyph too? It's definitely getting to the point where we can't afford to have an entirely null slot in the game)

 

[ranmaru]

#HBC | Kary : What good points, and why does that make him town? What points in my case were a reach, tell me so I can have a better understanding.

By the way, this is to everyone, we thinking 2 scum or 3 scum? (Since we had an indy flip)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry forgot to declare one day v/la will post more tomorrow.

 

[ranmaru]

I will be V/LA today due to Obamacare; Have applications to finish before January. I expect Gheb and Rake will have responded today. I am having trouble deciding between J v Kary. Nothing sticks out to me. I'm at a point where I realize the Joey flip does nothing for me in terms of finding scum. I am still liking the two and wonder if they are simply having a misunderstanding.

@#HBC | J：How confident are you in Kary being scum here? How is it different from any of his other games?
#HBC | Kary : How confident are you in J being scum, and how is it any different from his other games?
SangfroidWarrior : Do you lean one way or the other between the two, or are you just pressuring Kary? What is your conclusion?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well Sparky has been receiving flak from a lot of slots this game that much is clear and it's from the opposite side of the fence I stand with on most issues which has been the party of you/Kary/Rake/Joey and Joey was scum so I'm chalking that up to a correct statement on the scummies.

No, you're not gonna get to claim any credibility through Joey's flip. Not a chance. Him flipping independent has nothing to do with anything not concerning himself.

I should have been more clear. The people who have been giving me bad vibes throughout the game also seem to be the ones who are looking at Sparky (when this post was made) and creating unnecessary comments of derision towards his slot.

This isn't what you said then though. You said the "flak" Spak received made you think that there are "scummers up to no good" on it. You had neither mentioned Kary nor me before that so you saying now that these people have been giving you "bad vibes all game" doesn't amount to much.

On Day 1 you also claimed that your preferred lynches were Rake > soup >>> Koops. There was no relevant mention of Kary or Gheb at any point before the beginning of Day 2 where you stopped doing **** for the most part.

You continue to semi-berate the slot saying that he should focus on things that don't pertain to what you deem as "useless" and talk about other things. At the time, the flak I was describing was unnecessary comments and also ways to try and make Sparky look worse.

Rake may be a different story [but I don't care much because I wouldn't object to his lynch] but it's not like Kary and I haven't tried to talk to Spak about it first. What you're trying to slander as 'semi-berating' him was giving him a chance to respond without making him look worse - he refused to take that chance so the only one who has made him look worse was Spak himself.

In fact, I consider the two sentences in this quote to be borderline contradictory. How you can accuse somebody who actively tries to reason with him of trying to make him look worse? It's either one or the other.

It also kept me firm in my believes that there is scum in the pile of Rake/Kary/Gheb which is something I have been on all game almost now [...]

Rake, Kary and Gheb are your top 3 scum reads then, yes?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Reading up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's chat.

Who are your main scum picks, because I want to be clear where your head is at and why.

Tell me about the J wagon, I like the people who are on it but I just don't understand it until Gheb posted a little bit more that gave me something on it. What do you think of them and that wagon right now?

I'm more ok with Ran now, why aren't you ok with him right now?

@Shun Goku Satsu Rake I do want to see this addressed please.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Reading now

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Still think Rake is the best option for toDay. Notice how he doesn't answer some questions, such as Ryu talking to him or my request for his first soup scumread quote. I also see nothing of Koopa from him today, except when he mentions him as a pick below me. Rake isn't being very open to conversation, when I know Rake is honest about everything. On Koopa, I feel a cat has caught his tongue, and he doesn't want to say anything. It's odd that he views after being prodded and doesn't respond to said prod.

When it deadline?

And do you think Koops is a better lynch over Rake, because I do.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Ok wow I really cannot get myself to want to play this game, was expecting to have more free time but turns out I was not so fortunate

request replacement

Sorry Bardull, didn't mean to be such a boner but its better to do this than slap out some halfassed content lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you have any actual thoughts/responses to that post?



Has that changed your mind any into toDay? Do you think Koopa's absence is telling of anything or just null?



So, I was thinking about this and I do actually have some problems with his claim. Rake's roleclaim has nothing inherently town in it, from my perspective. It could go either way, as it could be useful for town but it could also be very useful for scum. With him suggesting a mass roleclaim from people, there may be something fishy going on here. Also, but to a lesser extent/reason of worry, it was done following Soup's, and both his and Soup's reactions to being waggoned (although Soup's wasn't really a huge wagon at the time), are very similar. I don't really think it's a counter-claim, as Kanty brought up yesterDay, but something around it makes me uncomfortable.



This is a logical fallacy, in my opinion, as there's no reason that there couldn't be a reason for Ran not to hammer. How does this inherently make Ran not scum? If he had done that, it might have looked pretty scummy. What would your opinion be if one or the other flipped scum?

Also, can you talk to me more about your J and Dietz reads?



J, I don't really understand what you're saying with this. Joey flipped indy, did he not? How does this connect to the others? Or am I reading this incorrectly?

#HBC | Red Ryu - I have a few questions for you. 1) Do you still believe that Ran claiming roleblock was fake? If so, why? And, where did the basis come from? 2) Can you elaborate on some of your reads for me, specifically your scum reads? 3) Can you explain your Koopa vote?

ranmaru - You said that you would look into Kanty and JD because you didn't have a problem with Rake but now he's your main scum read? I think you already kind of explained this, but I still don't really understand the logic.

@Shun Goku Satsu Rake - Did you ever explain your vote on J?

@TheKingofKoopas - Where you at?

Initially into the day yes. Because his slot claimed when pressured when he played scummy, soup here, then he was roleblocked, what a shock! I thought the Soup slot was scum and still wanted it dead but Ran picked up the slack.

I want Koops dead because on a reread I am unimpressed and do not see the firm motivation from his slot.

Right now I am looking at the back and forth between Kary and J and I am disliking J's responses to Kary while being perfectly ok with the people who are on his wagon. J's reasoning to vote Kary is very shallow.

Others are potentials but I am questioning on this front.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well, in the example I mentioned, it is 100% false that I was "trying to paint Sparky in a negative light". To my mind that is a clear cut case of, at the very least, wishful thinking on the part of J.

In general, whether J is 'making things up' is open for debate- but for example you will recall J accused me of 'hiding' this game- this strikes me as nonsense and buzzwords dressed up as though it means something.

As to what Dietz said, at least half of it is sound. In parts it seems to echo Gheb. I also think it is noteworthy that Dietz is pushing J now given they were both voting Rake yesterDay.



Rake seems to be playing this game during his morning commute or something. His (relative) low activity doesn't bother me so much as he isn't explaining himself as well as I would like. For instance, his D1 read on Koops I don't have a problem with, but without the context of the rest of his reads, it is hard to make sense of- to evaluate where that read is coming from.
Rake not talking about his waggon, is just a symptom of this 'not enough explanation' in my opinion.

For toDay, I am beginning to think that the best lynch is either J or Rake. Both slots have a reasonable number of connections, and I feel like their interaction is probably TvS, for instance in J being quick to jump on the Rake waggon.

The bolded I still question though from you since I do think how you and Gheb want to lynch Spak is he is not scummy but rather he is playing "bad"

I rather see towny effect even if it seems to be not the best and focused on things I don't think would lead to scum itself with Spak.

Gheb offered earlier today to still find him to be a lynchable today when I question his reasoning for mostly just being, "Not good enough"

I would find this questionable when people seem to be expecting a lot more from him when I do not see why people would.