Tournament Mode [1.1.0] Community Patch Notes

[Shaya]

If the hit lag modifier is above 1.0 and it hits shield, it is divided literally by 1.25.
It won't go below 1.0

Five divided by 1.25 = 4.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So hitlag is calculated, then if the move has a hitlag modifier above 1, it's then divided by 1.25.

Excellent, thanks!

 

[Vipermoon]

Also as an aside, this hit lag modifer thing also affects counters.
Marth has effectively lost the ability to use counter against Ness, Roy and Ryu's recoveries as they will no longer experience extended hit lag while Marth did not. I guess Marth's been compensated, but this hurts other counters in this game too.

PK Thunder (PKT2)
Frame 1-10: 25% 83b/80g (KO@ 38%) 361° Electric
Frame 11-32: 21% 45b/70g (KO@ 97%) 361° Electric
Max Damage: 25%

Apparently, PKT2 doesn't have a hitlag modifier. That means it's unchanged against shields and counters.

----------------------------------------------

Also I thought about what goes on when Marth counters an attack and when I think about it, I can't figure out what hitlag of the countered attack has to do with anything...

Counter is activated
Marth and the opponent are frozen for 16 frames
Then Marth attacks in 5-7 frames

As you can see, never does the hitlag of the countered attack come into play so how can counters change from this?

Am I missing something or...?

 

[Shaya]

On most recovery moves you can't be "stopped", however you will still proc hit lag.

Whoops on Ness then, that was just one anecdote, compared to numerous roy/ryu instances though.

 

[Meru.]

Can someone check Peach's Dash Attack? It has a hit lag modifier of 1.2 and its hit effect is magic. Dsmash has a hit modifier of 3.0, but I guess that's too high to have undergone any change?

Sorry for requesting specific things like these, but Chinese is literally easier for me to understand than this.

 

[Regralht]

Is there a calculation for shield hitlag or are you guys just manually counting it? I don't have the means atm to check yoshi's Dair (1.1 modifier) and Bair (2.0 modifier)

 

[Shaya]

Hit lag is apparently: (DMG/2.6) + 5) * Modifier

So on Bair
10 to 8 frames on early hits, and 12 to 9 on the final hit.

Dair would become 1.0; the difference being .5 or .6 of a frame... so either 1 frame off on both or nothing at all?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Stepping in to note Little Mac's Forward-B has a 1.2x multiplier, F-Smash variants have a 1.4x hitlag multiplier and his U-Smash has a 1.8x one (on the sweetspot). If I'm doing this right, the 1.2x becomes 1.0x (because of the floor), the 1.4x one turns into the equivalent of 1.12x and the 1.8x one becomes 1.44x.

Little Mac Forward-B, F-Smash and U-Smash have become safer on shield in 1.10 by 2 frames, 3 frames, and 4 frames, respectively.

 

[Vipermoon]

On most recovery moves you can't be "stopped", however you will still proc hit lag.

Whoops on Ness then, that was just one anecdote, compared to numerous roy/ryu instances though.

Okay still a little confused. Using Marth's counter as the example, on some recoveries the opponent won't freeze for 16 frames. This I got. So instead will they freeze for hitlag duration on "shield"? Does this include the Marth? Will HE freeze with them in a shield hitlag or will he always freeze for 16 frames?

What characteristics do recoveries/attacks need to have for this to be the case?

@ Shaya help please?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

http://smashboards.com/threads/412130/page-28#post-20007555

Also Rosalina&Luma got uber stealth buffed this patch then lol.

I'm probably missing something obvious but how did Rosalina get stealth buffed? Do they have a bunch of hitlag modifiers that benefit from this change?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm probably missing something obvious but how did Rosalina get stealth buffed? Do they have a bunch of hitlag modifiers that benefit from this change?

A majority of Rosalina and Luma's respective movesets have hitlag modifiers. Luma's are larger modifiers in general. Maybe this will help draw out Rosalina's "aggresive options" I keep hearing about but never see.

Though I'm not sure this is totally a buff. Weren't her moves particularly safe on shield since only one character a time suffers hitlag from striking a shield? This let Luma cover for Rosalina while she suffered her higher shieldlag and endlag from the attack. I don't play Rosalina, so I don't know how accurate this is.

 

[Eureka]

How significant is this change to self shield-lag? Obviously it helps out Ryu, Roy, and Marth, but how much? And are there any other characters who notably benefit?

Also, I have to wonder why this engine change was made. If it was to reduce the effectiveness of shields, then why did they go about it in such an odd way? Or maybe this was just a convenient way to buff certain characters? I don't know it just seems like an odd change to make, although I do like it.

 

[Vipermoon]

How significant is this change to self shield-lag? Obviously it helps out Ryu, Roy, and Marth, but how much? And are there any other characters who notably benefit?

Also, I have to wonder why this engine change was made. If it was to reduce the effectiveness of shields, then why did they go about it in such an odd way? Or maybe this was just a convenient way to buff certain characters? I don't know it just seems like an odd change to make, although I do like it.

I feel like hitlag modifiers exist only for astetical effect. They realized how much it ruins things when it comes to shields (though I'm certain they always knew) so they figured, hey why not...?

And I don't think it's any coincidence that they chose 1.25 as the divisor. Tippers use this number.

 

[Athorment]

Hey guys, with the september 1st patch bringing on some really minor tweaks will you guys include them on this OP? I mean, we are still on v1.1.0 but the little "Online notices" on the main menu wasn't there for instance.

 

[Radical Larry]

Hey guys, with the september 1st patch bringing on some really minor tweaks will you guys include them on this OP? I mean, we are still on v1.1.0 but the little "Online notices" on the main menu wasn't there for instance.

Well, it seems that the "Online Notice" did not come with the September 1st or any patch after 1.1.0, so it came during 1.1.0 after being finalized and actually added in as a special part within the game (or the developers didn't have anything to put in at the time).

However, I still have no confirmation of the patch. It seems as if the patch is not happening so far. Does anyone have it?

 

[Shaya]

No -real- patch. CALM DOWN~

I/we don't make patch note threads for aesthetics or hotfix tweaks. If you aren't seeing anything, there's likely a good reason.

 

[Radical Larry]

Usually a real patch/update would come before Smash Bros. for Wii U even starts up, right?

 

[Ffamran]

Call it a "stealth" patch. It would be something like if Riot Games did some tweaking to their net code and somehow the connection is slightly better or DICE added minute things like the ability to make matches last 2 to 10 minutes longer in Battlefield 4. This isn't a patch that preps new stages, characters, or the addition of the DLC store button or removal of bugs or glitches. It's a very minute patch that works underground.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Anybody got a way to turn off automatic updates for Smash Wii U? The option for turning them off in the wii u system settings does not work on these individual patches, which I found out last time.

The only way I can do it is yank my ethernet adapter when I know a patch is coming the next day. It works, but I'm afraid of the day we get a gameplay balance patch without any advance warning.

 

[icraq]

Anybody got a way to turn off automatic updates for Smash Wii U? The option for turning them off in the wii u system settings does not work on these individual patches, which I found out last time.

The only way I can do it is yank my ethernet adapter when I know a patch is coming the next day. It works, but I'm afraid of the day we get a gameplay balance patch without any advance warning.

I think your best bet is blocking the update servers in your router settings.

 

[Deez1]

I'm curious. Wasn't Lucario buffed with his jabs? And it doesn't mention the Anubis effect?

 

[Equin0x]

Is there a dump or a thread or some calculation that I can use to find shieldlag for attacks? I'm in the middle of a big theorycrafting project, but I mainly just want this for landing hitboxes and Jab 1s and 2s.

 

[Shaya]

It only applies on moves with hit lag modifiers.
There aren't that many jab 1/2s and landing hitboxes with hit lag modifiers that I've seen.

Floor[(Damage / 2.6) + 5) * hit lag modifier]

 

[Equin0x]

It only applies on moves with hit lag modifiers.
There aren't that many jab 1/2s and landing hitboxes with hit lag modifiers that I've seen.

Floor[(Damage / 2.6) + 5) * hit lag modifier]

Nothing for moves without hitlag modifiers? Would this work if I substituted "1" as the modifier value for moves without one?

 

[Shaya]

The modifier is default 1.0
so yes it still works.

If the modifier is higher than 1.0, then the MODIFIER will be divided by 1.25 ONLY if it hits shield.

 

[Equin0x]

The modifier is default 1.0
so yes it still works.

If the modifier is higher than 1.0, then the MODIFIER will be divided by 1.25 ONLY if it hits shield.

One more question. What if the formula yields a decimal? Would it be always rounded down, always rounded up, or what? (Thank you so much, btw.)

 

[Shaya]

Ever heard the terms floor/ceiling?
I said 'floor' in the original formula.

 

[Equin0x]

Ever heard the terms floor/ceiling?
I said 'floor' in the original formula.

I was wondering what that meant. I'll take your post to mean that it always rounds down.

 

[MrDKfan]

better nerf Greninja
OH WAIT.......

 

[Dantarion]

A bunch of changes have been missed.

v128 -> v144: Miigunner[Uair Landing Lag] : 26.0 => 22.0
v128 -> v144: Marth[Fair Landing Lag] : 18.0 => 16.0
v128 -> v144: Marth[Bair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 17.0
v128 -> v144: Marth[Uair Landing Lag] : 16.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: Marth[Dair Landing Lag] : 28.0 => 24.0
v128 -> v144: Metaknight[83] : 30.0 => 25.0
v128 -> v144: Metaknight[84] : 30.0 => 27.0
v128 -> v144: Lizardon[Fair Landing Lag] : 32.0 => 31.0
v128 -> v144: Lizardon[Bair Landing Lag] : 36.0 => 33.0
v128 -> v144: Wiifit[Fair Landing Lag] : 18.0 => 16.0
v128 -> v144: Wiifit[Bair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 17.0
v128 -> v144: Wiifit[Uair Landing Lag] : 16.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: Wiifit[Dair Landing Lag] : 28.0 => 24.0
v128 -> v144: DLC3[3] : 0.819999992847 => 0.850000023842
v128 -> v144: DLC3[22] : 1.04999995232 => 1.10000002384
v128 -> v144: DLC3[Dair Landing Lag] : 24.0 => 21.0
v128 -> v144: DLC3[59] : 0.972800016403 => 0.973999977112
v128 -> v144: DLC3[64] : 0.819999992847 => 0.850000023842
v128 -> v144: DLC5[3] : 0.869000017643 => 1.10000002384
v128 -> v144: DLC5[7] : 0.0439999997616 => 0.0500000007451
v128 -> v144: DLC5[11] : 1.5 => 1.75
v128 -> v144: DLC5[17] : 29.8999996185 => 31.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[25] : 1.64999997616 => 1.54999995232
v128 -> v144: DLC5[27] : 2.6400001049 => 2.48000001907
v128 -> v144: DLC5[28] : 16.0 => 12.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[Fair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 12.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[Bair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 12.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[Uair Landing Lag] : 18.0 => 12.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[Dair Landing Lag] : 26.0 => 12.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[33] : 107.0 => 102.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[56] : 0x23 => 0x24
v128 -> v144: DLC5[57] : 0.0823076888919 => 0.078461535275
v128 -> v144: DLC5[59] : 1.10476005077 => 1.06400001049
v128 -> v144: DLC5[60] : 1.02333331108 => 1.00666666031
v128 -> v144: DLC5[64] : 0.869000017643 => 1.10000002384
v128 -> v144: DLC5[68] : 34.9500007629 => 35.5
v128 -> v144: DLC5[115] : 0xf => 0x7
v128 -> v144: DLC5[188] : 0x10 => 0xf
v128 -> v144: DLC5[279] : 4.0 => 5.0
v128 -> v144: DLC5[280] : 18.0 => 17.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[3] : 1.39999997616 => 0.639999985695
v128 -> v144: DLC6[7] : 0.070000000298 => 0.0450000017881
v128 -> v144: DLC6[11] : 2.09999990463 => 1.60000002384
v128 -> v144: DLC6[17] : 44.5 => 39.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[19] : 44.1999092102 => 42.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[22] : 1.20000004768 => 0.899999976158
v128 -> v144: DLC6[Fair Landing Lag] : 16.0 => 10.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[Bair Landing Lag] : 11.0 => 10.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[Uair Landing Lag] : 9.0 => 10.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[Dair Landing Lag] : 30.0 => 10.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[33] : 81.0 => 92.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[44] : 1.0 => 1.02999997139
v128 -> v144: DLC6[57] : 0.0623076930642 => 0.0707692280412
v128 -> v144: DLC6[59] : 0.865999996662 => 0.945599973202
v128 -> v144: DLC6[60] : 0.936666667461 => 0.973333358765
v128 -> v144: DLC6[64] : 1.39999997616 => 0.639999985695
v128 -> v144: DLC6[68] : 42.25 => 39.5
v128 -> v144: DLC6[81] : 30.0 => 60.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[82] : 30.0 => 60.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[83] : 0.0 => 60.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[84] : 0.0 => 60.0
v128 -> v144: DLC6[86] : 0x0 => 0x5
v128 -> v144: DLC6[188] : 0xc => 0xe
v128 -> v144: DLC6[263] : 0x0 => 0x1
v128 -> v144: DLC6[264] : 0x1 => 0x3
v128 -> v144: DLC6[286] : 0x1 => 0x0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[3] : 0.869000017643 => 1.20000004768
v128 -> v144: DLC7[7] : 0.0439999997616 => 0.070000000298
v128 -> v144: DLC7[17] : 29.8999996185 => 33.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[22] : 1.08000004292 => 1.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[28] : 16.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[Fair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[Bair Landing Lag] : 19.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[Uair Landing Lag] : 18.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[Dair Landing Lag] : 26.0 => 14.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[33] : 107.0 => 98.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[44] : 1.0 => 0.980000019073
v128 -> v144: DLC7[45] : 10.8999996185 => 10.6000003815
v128 -> v144: DLC7[48] : 3.81500005722 => 3.71000003815
v128 -> v144: DLC7[57] : 0.0823076888919 => 0.0753846168518
v128 -> v144: DLC7[59] : 1.10476005077 => 1.02799999714
v128 -> v144: DLC7[60] : 1.02333331108 => 0.993333339691
v128 -> v144: DLC7[64] : 0.869000017643 => 1.20000004768
v128 -> v144: DLC7[68] : 34.9500007629 => 36.5
v128 -> v144: DLC7[86] : 0x0 => 0x5
v128 -> v144: DLC7[97] : 21.5 => 21.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[153] : 17.5 => 17.0
v128 -> v144: DLC7[171] : 0x2 => 0x1
v128 -> v144: DLC7[188] : 0x10 => 0xf
v128 -> v144: DLC7[201] : 8.75 => 8.5
v128 -> v144: DLC7[263] : 0x0 => 0x1

The data is all right, but the labels may be wrong. ayyyy lmao

 

[san.]

DLC 3-7 eh?

Surprised the WFT's landing lag wasn't updated in the OP. Those seem a lot more important than what's there currently outside of the grab fix.

 

[Dantarion]

It looks like they completely removed attributes between some o fthe patches, so as a result, characters have FEWER attributes now than they did on release. Not sure what thats about.
Anyways, I did from v0-144
https://gist.github.com/dantarion/a7eaabbf203e3f039f35

 

[Shaya]

Who's down air is going from 30 to 10 frames landing lag and 26 to 12?

Good job finding those values though. I guess we missed WiiFit's extra changes. I'll get around to updating those soon.

 

[san.]

Who's down air is going from 30 to 10 frames landing lag and 26 to 12?

Good job finding those values though. I guess we missed WiiFit's extra changes. I'll get around to updating those soon.

I think DLC character slots were switched with final smash character slots.

Giga Bowser is mewtwo right now. Whichever slot has 400 weight is the current Giga Bowser slot.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Wii Fit's numbers don't correspond to this thread's numbers for landing lag. Nor, Kurogane's.

In fact, they are Marth's numbers. And the only character who has the same landing lag numbers as Marth is Lucina. Her slot must have gotten swapped with Wii Fits.

Regarding Charizard's Fair, I could believe it. Even at 1/4x time when looking for landing lag changes, I never trust myself to lock down a change of a single frame using just my eyes. I don't have a pre-patch version right now to check however. Cross referencing between previous dumps and somebody frame counting the current patch should shed some light on that move.

 

[Shaya]

I meant to ask "where's lucina", and I probably should've instantly inferred it was in fact Lucina's values, haha.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lmao I was going to make a post on how in the hell Wii Fit got those landing lag numbers but forgot.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Mario's U-tilt and B-air don't have hitlag modifiers, right? Going through his frame data and his U-tilt has 7 frames of hitlag and 7 frames of self shieldlag, but the opponent only has 6 frames of shieldlag, though they have 3 frames of shieldstun (1 frame more than the standard, which is usually 4 frames less than the shieldlag). B-air (strong hit) has 9 frames of hitlag and 9 frames of self shieldlag but the opponent only has 8 frames of shieldlag, with 5 frames of shieldstun.

The shieldstun part makes me think this is related to the formula that calculates the hitlag/shieldlag/shieldstun based on how much damage the move does (with no hitlag modifiers involved), but I just want to make sure.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

With regards to the hitstun multiplier effect (as I read it, hitstun is divided by 1.25 if you have a multiplier of 1.50 or greater and you hit a shield), does this work on electric effect attacks? Or is the electric effect multiplier something that's different enough to be excluded?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

With regards to the hitstun multiplier effect (as I read it, hitstun is divided by 1.25 if you have a multiplier of 1.50 or greater and you hit a shield), does this work on electric effect attacks? Or is the electric effect multiplier something that's different enough to be excluded?

We checked, and it's explicit modifiers only. Anything larger than 1.0 gets reduced, but it never gets reduced to be lesser than 1.0. The electric effect on moves still suffers the same amount of shieldlag as before.