Tournament Mode [1.1.0] Community Patch Notes

[Luig]

I think the 3DS version's edges are slightly better.

 

[Megalopunny3]

Wait so Rosalina wasn't changed at all? Surprising

And how do people feel about the Yoshi Bair buff? It's made his air game that much better and he can legit stage spike with it now..why?

 

[Nelkoy]

Wait so Rosalina wasn't changed at all? Surprising

Yeah, I'm really sad about that. I was hoping for that buff she desperately needs.

 

[Dantarion]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 18 to 17
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[07B][2] from 50 to 43

07B - ThrowLw - D72C4C6A

my dumps now have param changes, will try to get the animation names in them, but endlag changes are now available online

The other 3 are things I want tested though.
4B-4D are EscapeN EscapeF, EscapeB

now, sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA, im not sure what these are. Maybe total duration? Have these rolls gotten one frame better?

 

[Yikarur]

it's not like we were killing with fair anyways, Luigi clearly got an overall buff.

Also, how exactly doesn an extra 3 frames of endlag on fireball somehow cause it to not guarantee a grab? it already had 41 frames so 44 is really not much different in the end, he act out at pretty much the same moment.

lol you have no idea what difference one frame makes in this game. 1 Frame nerfs or buffs already make such a huge difference. 3 is really a looot..

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Finished taking a general look at all characters endlag on moves with side by side comparisons between pre and post-patch. Though many of these have been confirmed since I started work on it last night. I only checked the custom moves of specials that have been changed, not every single one. And my setup did not allow me to look at dash grabs and pivot grabs. And I didn't check DLC characters because I only had them on one version of the game, and can't input my codes for 3DS without updating the system. Now, the results are:

Luigi – Dtilt endlag reduced. Neutral B endlag increased. Custom neutral Bs have this same increase.

Donkey Kong – Dash attack endlag reduced.

Zelda – Utilt endlag reduced. Down B endlag reduced on all amounts of charge. Custom Down Bs received the same change.

Ganondorf – Uthrow endlag increased (or hitlag increased due to the damage buff? Cannot tell)

Pit/Dark Pit – Neutral B endlag reduced at any charge. I do not have Pit's neutral Bs on both versions, but I did have Dark Pits. They have the same reduction

Palutena – Standing grab endlag reduced. All grabs? Cannot check. Dtilt endlag reduced

Marth – Utilt endlag reduced. Neutral B endlag reduced at any charge. The custom Neutral Bs received the same change. Fair landing lag reduced. Bair landing lag reduced. Uair landing lag reduced. Dair landing lag reduced. Up B landing lag reduced. Custom Up Bs also have reduced landing lag. Edit: And I forgot to mention these changes are all applied to Lucina as well

Robin – Neutral B endlag reduced (more significant reduction on heavier charges, but Thoron's is unchanged. Custom Neutral Bs have the same change, with Thoron being unaffected. Dthrow endlag significantly reduced.

Kirby – Neutral B endlag reduced (this is separate from the reduced startup he also received in this patch). Kirby's custom neutral Bs are unchanged. Fthrow endlag reduced (or hitlag reduced due to damage change?)

Fox – Jab 1 and 2 both have endlag increased. Neutral B endlag reduced. Custom neutral Bs are also reduced.

Charizard – Bair landing lag reduced. Dthrow endlag reduced.

Greninja – Neutral B startup frames reduced before entering charge/release window (not an endlag reduction). I don't have Neutral B 2 on both versions to confirm the same change, but I did have Neutral B 3, and there's no difference there. Dthrow endlag reduced

Wii Fit Trainer – Side B landing lag reduced significantly

Shulk – Side B startup reduced, but total frames is unchanged. Custom Side Bs do not share this change.

Mega Man – Down B endlag from forming shield reduced. Custom Down Bs do not share this reduction.

Mii Brawler – Rapid jab endlag reduced. Neutral B 2 time it takes to reach full charge reduced significantly.

Mii Swordsman – Side B 2 startup reduced. Side B 3 endlag reduced significantly.

Mii Gunner – Uair landing lag reduced. Neutral B 1 endlag reduced from firing with any charge. Side B 3 endlag reduced on either type of missile.

Luigi's d-tilt total frames reduced by 3, from 29 -> 26.

Luigi's Neutral B 1 total frames increased by 3 frames, from 40 -> 43.

Luigi's Neutral B 2 total frames increased by 5 frames, from 60 -> 65.

Luigi's Neutral B 3 total frames increased by 3 frames, from 49 -> 52.

Donkey Kong's dash attack total frames reduced by 5, from 48 -> 43.

Zelda's u-tilt total frames reduced by 3, from 32 -> 29.

Zelda's Down B 1 total frames reduced by 5 frames. Uncharged from 70 -> 65, full charge from 178 -> 173.

Zelda's Down B 2 total frames reduced by 5 frames. Uncharged from 73 -> 68, full charge from 181 -> 176.

Zelda's Down B 3 total frames reduced by 5 frames. Uncharged from 73 -> 68, full charge from 160 -> 155.

Ganondorf's Up Throw hitlag increased by 2 frames, 9 -> 11. Total frames remains the same (43).

Pit's Neutral B 1 total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 61 -> 58.

Pit's Neutral B 2 total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 92 -> 89

Pit's Neutral B 3 total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 71 -> 68

Pit's Neutral B 1-3 changes also apply to Dark Pit.

Palutena's grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 33 -> 31.

Palutena's dash grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 41 -> 39.

Palutena's pivot grab total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 38 -> 36.

Marth's U-tilt, total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 39 -> 36.

Marth's F-air, landing lag reduced by 2 frames, from 18 -> 16.

Marth's D-air, landing lag reduced by 4 frames, from 28 -> 24.

Marth's B-air, landing lag reduced by 2 frames, from 19 -> 17.

Marth's Shield Breaker, uncharged total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 52 -> 50.

Marth's Storm Thrust, uncharged total frames reduced by 2 frames, from 67 -> 65

Marth's Dashing Assault, uncharged total frames reduced by 2 frames, 65 -> 63

Marth's Dolphin Slash, landing lag reduced by 3 frames, 23 -> 20.

Marth's Crescent Slash, landing lag reduced by 2 frames, 36 -> 34

Marth's Dolphin Jump, landing lag reduced by 3 frames, 43 -> 40.

Lucina has the same changes as Marth.

Robin's Thunder total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 42 -> 39 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Elthunder total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 54 -> 44 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Arcthunder total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 54 -> 44 (this excludes minimum charge which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Thunder+ total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 52 -> 49 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Elthunder+ total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 64 -> 54 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Arcthunder+ total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 64 -> 54 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Speed Thunder total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 36 -> 33 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's Speed Elthunder total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 48 -> 38 (this excludes minimum charge time)

Robin's Speed Arcthunder total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 48 -> 38 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 7 frames)

Robin's down throw total frames reduced by 6 frames, from 43 -> 37.

Kirby's inhale start-up reduced by 4 frames, 18 -> 14.

Kirby's Inhale total frames reduced by 5 frames, 77 -> 72

Can act out of Kirby's forward throw 3 frames earlier

Fox's Jab 1 total frames increased by 2 frames, 15 -> 17.

Fox's jab 2 total frames increased by 3 frames, 17 -> 20.

Fox's Neutral B 1 total frames reduced by 3 frames, 42 -> 39.

Fox's Neutral B 2 total frames is 39.

Fox's Neutral B 3 total frames is 78.

(I forgot to record Fox's customs for 1.06, so if someone could check the total frame count on Fox's Neutral B 2 and Neutral B 3, that would be awesome)

Charizard's b-air landing lag reduced by 3 frames, from 36 -> 33.

Charizard's d-throw endlag reduced, from 72 -> 70

Greninja's uncharged shuriken start-up reduced by 5 frames, 25 -> 20.

Greninja's uncharged shuriken total frames reduced by 5 frames, 50 -> 45.

Greninja's Down Throw total frames reduced, from 49 -> 42.

WFT's landing lag from a cancelled header reduced by 13 frames, from 29 -> 16

Shulk's Back Slash start-up reduced by 9 frames, from 31 -> 22

Shulk's Back Slash total frames (on level ground) reduced by 1 frame, from 73 -> 72

Megaman's Leaf Shield (forming it) total frames reduced by 6 frames, 59 -> 53.

Mii Brawler (Standard)'s Jab Ender total frames reduced by 3 frames, from 43 -> 40.

Mii Brawler Ultimate Uppercut charge time reduced by 13 frames, 137 -> 124

Mii Swordfighter Slash Launcher minimum start-up reduced by 4 frames, from 17 -> 13

Mii Swordfighter Chakram total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 62 -> 52.

Mii Gunner (Standard) Up Air landing lag reduced by 4 frames, from 26 -> 22

Mii Gunner Charge Shot total frames reduced by 6 frames, from 45 -> 39 (this excludes minimum charge time which would add 12 frames)

Mii Gunner Missile (Homing version) total frames reduced by 12 frames, from 74 -> 62

Mii Gunner Missile (Smash version) total frames reduced by 10 frames, from 59 -> 49

Zapp and Will: The Super Frame Bros.

Any other frame changes you think were made, let me know and I'll check. Gonna finish going through Sheik's frame data tomorrow.

 

[Ffamran]

lol you have no idea what difference one frame makes in this game. 1 Frame nerfs or buffs already make such a huge difference. 3 is really a looot..

Adding on to this, case in point: Falco's Uair and Fair in patch 1.0.8; Uair went from frame 10 to 7 and Fair from frame 12 to 10. Little numbers, but major effects to Falco's Uair and Fair. You could shave off 5 frames of Falco's Blaster end lag and he'd have something similar to Luigi's current Fireball.

 

[san.]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 18 to 17
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[07B][2] from 50 to 43

07B - ThrowLw - D72C4C6A

my dumps now have param changes, will try to get the animation names in them, but endlag changes are now available online

The other 3 are things I want tested though.
4B-4D are EscapeN EscapeF, EscapeB

now, sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA, im not sure what these are. Maybe total duration? Have these rolls gotten one frame better?

I'm guessing it's tied to spot dodge/roll invincibility?

 

[ElderLolz]

lol you have no idea what difference one frame makes in this game. 1 Frame nerfs or buffs already make such a huge difference. 3 is really a looot..

When Zelda's aerials got patched in the 1.0.8 (I think?) patch I didn't expect those 3 frames to make her movement to be much much smoother. It got even more enjoyable to play her thanks to that

 

[Luig]

To give you a taste of what 6 frames look like, try Shulk's backslash prepatch and after patch. Ginormous difference.

 

[_Sylvan_]

Have there been any ROB changes? I can't seem to find anything about him in the new patch, nothing that even says he was left alone. Can anyone confirm changes or continuities?

 

[LancerStaff]

Finished taking a general look at all characters endlag on moves with side by side comparisons between pre and post-patch. Though many of these have been confirmed since I started work on it last night. I only checked the custom moves of specials that have been changed, not every single one. And my setup did not allow me to look at dash grabs and pivot grabs. And I didn't check DLC characters because I only had them on one version of the game, and can't input my codes for 3DS without updating the system. Now, the results are:

Luigi – Dtilt endlag reduced. Neutral B endlag increased. Custom neutral Bs have this same increase.

Donkey Kong – Dash attack endlag reduced.

Zelda – Utilt endlag reduced. Down B endlag reduced on all amounts of charge. Custom Down Bs received the same change.

Ganondorf – Uthrow endlag increased (or hitlag increased due to the damage buff? Cannot tell)

Pit/Dark Pit – Neutral B endlag reduced at any charge. I do not have Pit's neutral Bs on both versions, but I did have Dark Pits. They have the same reduction

Palutena – Standing grab endlag reduced. All grabs? Cannot check. Dtilt endlag reduced

Marth – Utilt endlag reduced. Neutral B endlag reduced at any charge. The custom Neutral Bs received the same change. Fair landing lag reduced. Bair landing lag reduced. Uair landing lag reduced. Dair landing lag reduced. Up B landing lag reduced. Custom Up Bs also have reduced landing lag. Edit: And I forgot to mention these changes are all applied to Lucina as well

Robin – Neutral B endlag reduced (more significant reduction on heavier charges, but Thoron's is unchanged. Custom Neutral Bs have the same change, with Thoron being unaffected. Dthrow endlag significantly reduced.

Kirby – Neutral B endlag reduced (this is separate from the reduced startup he also received in this patch). Kirby's custom neutral Bs are unchanged. Fthrow endlag reduced (or hitlag reduced due to damage change?)

Fox – Jab 1 and 2 both have endlag increased. Neutral B endlag reduced. Custom neutral Bs are also reduced.

Charizard – Bair landing lag reduced. Dthrow endlag reduced.

Greninja – Neutral B startup frames reduced before entering charge/release window (not an endlag reduction). I don't have Neutral B 2 on both versions to confirm the same change, but I did have Neutral B 3, and there's no difference there. Dthrow endlag reduced

Wii Fit Trainer – Side B landing lag reduced significantly

Shulk – Side B startup reduced, but total frames is unchanged. Custom Side Bs do not share this change.

Mega Man – Down B endlag from forming shield reduced. Custom Down Bs do not share this reduction.

Mii Brawler – Rapid jab endlag reduced. Neutral B 2 time it takes to reach full charge reduced significantly.

Mii Swordsman – Side B 2 startup reduced. Side B 3 endlag reduced significantly.

Mii Gunner – Uair landing lag reduced. Neutral B 1 endlag reduced from firing with any charge. Side B 3 endlag reduced on either type of missile.

Do Pit and Dark Pit's arrows when used in the air have less cooldown? They've been faster then grounded ones since the beginning, but I'm curious if they've been improved.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

If the knockback formula is right then Luigis fair gets less knockback from 9 damage to 8 so it will combo better which leads to more damage from down throw.. ConCon posted a vine Luigi 101% combo on sheik virtually no getting out of it..really Sakurai

Sounds fishy. Link? I am hard pressed to believe anyone has a 101% combo on anyone using DI, let alone sheik with nair, fair, and bair breaking combos.

Edit:'d

Down throw hasn't had it's damage decreased. In fact the only nerfs were slightly more lag on fireballs and 1% less of fair, but that's possibly been made up for by buffed up b, up throw, and down tilt. He's still as brain dead.

If you still can't deal with fireball spam I don't know what to say. Increased fireball lag is meaningful. There is increased risk to using the move.

OP mentions no change to up throw. Did they change up throw?

Down tilt was an incredible move before for it's trajectory that set up angled f-smash, regrabs, and other mixups, especially when used for edge guarding on recovering people who have used their double jump. D tilt may still be just as good right now with reduced cooldown, although it looks like a gamble for a setup instead of guaranteed damage off of grab instead at low %, with less uses at high % because it will stop tripping at like 60% due to the mechanics of trip moves like that? I think that's been established.

Not sure how many people trip to up B kill will be a thing against because it will stop tripping entirely before kill % vs a certain weight and above, apparently. And if you fail to land d tilt before a certain % no chance for the setup whatsoever. Someone should look into this thoroughly. Trip to grab should work fine, however. Not sure what the trajectory will mean at high % but it will vary based on % due to sakurai angle. You'll have to be smart to use it.

The major buff was up b hit box, which will make dthrow to up b easier even though they didn't change d-throw. This was already a true combo against most of the cast well into kill % if Luigi reads DI right. This should offset the fireball nerf but it is still a major risk because if you miss you're getting wrecked.

He's probably pretty much just as good as he was before but you have to apply his kit in more varied and creative ways and take more risks, IMO. If that's not great balance I don't know what is.

 

[IrkenPPG]

Overall this was pretty good.
The only problem I have is Luma's HP should be 40, and Ness' up B should not kill at 40, maybe around 70.
Also Samus, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner should have been buffed. I consider them the three worst characters in the game.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Overall this was pretty good.
The only problem I have is Luma's HP should be 40, and Ness' up B should not kill at 40, maybe around 70.
Also Samus, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner should have been buffed. I consider them the three worst characters in the game.

Swordfighter and Gunner got buffed, OP just hasn't updated. Even before this patch I consider gunner and sword fighter far from being the worst in the game. Still sad about Samus though, next patch is going to be kind to her and duck hunt I'm calling it.

 

[Megalopunny3]

Sounds fishy. Link? I am hard pressed to believe anyone has a 101% combo on anyone using DI, let alone sheik with nair, fair, and bair breaking combos.

Edit:'d



If you still can't deal with fireball spam I don't know what to say. Increased fireball lag is meaningful. There is increased risk to using the move.

OP mentions no change to up throw. Did they change up throw?

Down tilt was an incredible move before for it's trajectory that set up angled f-smash, regrabs, and other mixups, especially when used for edge guarding on recovering people who have used their double jump. D tilt may still be just as good right now with reduced cooldown, although it looks like a gamble for a setup instead of guaranteed damage off of grab instead at low %, with less uses at high % because it will stop tripping at like 60% due to the mechanics of trip moves like that? I think that's been established.

Not sure how many people trip to up B kill will be a thing against because it will stop tripping entirely before kill % vs a certain weight and above, apparently. And if you fail to land d tilt before a certain % no chance for the setup whatsoever. Someone should look into this thoroughly. Trip to grab should work fine, however. Not sure what the trajectory will mean at high % but it will vary based on % due to sakurai angle. You'll have to be smart to use it.

The major buff was up b hit box, which will make dthrow to up b easier even though they didn't change d-throw. This was already a true combo against most of the cast well into kill % if Luigi reads DI right. This should offset the fireball nerf but it is still a major risk because if you miss you're getting wrecked.

He's probably pretty much just as good as he was before but you have to apply his kit in more varied and creative ways and take more risks, IMO. If that's not great balance I don't know what is.

Luigi still down throw combos to oblivion.. As for down throw Up B it's really good against Heavies and fast fallers. I have yet to find out how much fireball nerf does, down tilt isn't a buff or nerf just something new. What do you think about up throw buff? Reason?

 

[lordvaati]

well it's technically not a balance thing per se, has anyone confirmed if PAC-MAN's Trampoline warp and invincible Hydrant glitches were removed?

 

[Eureka]

If you still can't deal with fireball spam I don't know what to say. Increased fireball lag is meaningful. There is increased risk to using the move.

OP mentions no change to up throw. Did they change up throw?

Down tilt was an incredible move before for it's trajectory that set up angled f-smash, regrabs, and other mixups, especially when used for edge guarding on recovering people who have used their double jump. D tilt may still be just as good right now with reduced cooldown, although it looks like a gamble for a setup instead of guaranteed damage off of grab instead at low %, with less uses at high % because it will stop tripping at like 60% due to the mechanics of trip moves like that? I think that's been established.

Not sure how many people trip to up B kill will be a thing against because it will stop tripping entirely before kill % vs a certain weight and above, apparently. And if you fail to land d tilt before a certain % no chance for the setup whatsoever. Someone should look into this thoroughly. Trip to grab should work fine, however. Not sure what the trajectory will mean at high % but it will vary based on % due to sakurai angle. You'll have to be smart to use it.

The major buff was up b hit box, which will make dthrow to up b easier even though they didn't change d-throw. This was already a true combo against most of the cast well into kill % if Luigi reads DI right. This should offset the fireball nerf but it is still a major risk because if you miss you're getting wrecked.

He's probably pretty much just as good as he was before but you have to apply his kit in more varied and creative ways and take more risks, IMO. If that's not great balance I don't know what is.

I never said I couldn't handle fireballs. While I agree that 3 extra frames in meaningful, I don't think it is significant enough to change Luigi's overall gameplan. I'm pretty sure he's going to be doing basically the same things. Hence why I said he's at the same level of brain deadness (I didn't mean to say he was brain dead, just at the same level he was before). Sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

 

[IrkenPPG]

Swordfighter and Gunner got buffed, OP just hasn't updated. Even before this patch I consider gunner and sword fighter far from being the worst in the game. Still sad about Samus though, next patch is going to be kind to her and duck hunt I'm calling it.

I didn't know Swordfighter and gunner were buffed, and no Duck Hunt is fine where he is. But I wouldn't mind if he got buffed.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Do Pit and Dark Pit's arrows when used in the air have less cooldown? They've been faster then grounded ones since the beginning, but I'm curious if they've been improved.

Whoa, I actually didn't know Pit's arrows has that fast of an IASA frame from the air. Sure enough, there's just as clear of a reduction on Pit's arrows from the air. When both fired synchronized arrows from a full hop, post-patch pit was able to double jump sooner after firing.

(I forgot to record Fox's customs for 1.06, so if someone could check the total frame count on Fox's Neutral B 2 and Neutral B 3, that would be awesome)

Zapp and Will: The Super Frame Bros.

Any other frame changes you think were made, let me know and I'll check. Gonna finish going through Sheik's frame data tomorrow.

Beautiful work on the frame counts!

Unfortunately, I had it in my head that patch day was Friday, not stopping to think that they meant Friday for Japan, which is about 17 hours ahead of my time zone. So I didn't set up my Wii U to not receive the update until just twenty minutes after it went live. Thus, I cannot provide direct feed pre-patch footage like last time. Let me see about getting camcorder footage of my pre-patch 3DS for Fox's custom blasters. Looks like it can record 60FPS. Frame counting that should be reasonable.

By any chance, Will, do you have pre-patch footage of Pit's neutral B from the air? That also has reduced endlag.

 

[Schiffe]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 18 to 17
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[07B][2] from 50 to 43

07B - ThrowLw - D72C4C6A

my dumps now have param changes, will try to get the animation names in them, but endlag changes are now available online

The other 3 are things I want tested though.
4B-4D are EscapeN EscapeF, EscapeB

now, sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA, im not sure what these are. Maybe total duration? Have these rolls gotten one frame better?

That is interesting. So that's where the IASA frames files where at...

Seems like ALOT of characters got a few moves' IASA reduced by 1 or more frame.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

By any chance, Will, do you have pre-patch footage of Pit's neutral B from the air? That also has reduced endlag.

Unfortunately I do not. I always seem to forget something when I do this.

 

[theyellowflash26]

Did Marth move forward when you spammed Up-Tilts in the last patch? Because he scoots forward when you do them now and it's very noticeable. It's like his Down-Tilt in Brawl.

Yah it did that last time.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I never said I couldn't handle fireballs. While I agree that 3 extra frames in meaningful, I don't think it is significant enough to change Luigi's overall gameplan. I'm pretty sure he's going to be doing basically the same things. Hence why I said he's at the same level of brain deadness (I didn't mean to say he was brain dead, just at the same level he was before). Sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

Sorry that was kind of a passive aggressive comment on my part. His game plan will be the same so Luigi's don't have to relearn their stuff which no one likes to do, but fireballs are not free stage control in as many situations as he doesn't get as much frame advantage. Fireballs were safe on POWERSHEILD against many characters before. That was ****ed up. So you have to think about what time is the right time to use the projectile more now is what i meant. Fireball to grab also won't be completely free although I'm sure it's still very possible.

I imagine d tilt followups will be much less linear because the trip is chance based and the angle will be different based on %, so same deal. More for the Luigi player to manage.

Luigi still down throw combos to oblivion.. As for down throw Up B it's really good against Heavies and fast fallers. I have yet to find out how much fireball nerf does, down tilt isn't a buff or nerf just something new. What do you think about up throw buff? Reason?

Sure he can, but its not as damaging. Also less damage on defensive fair in nuetral, as someone mentioned. But his gameplan remains the same which is great, IMO.

What did they change about up throw? I missed that one.

 

[Eureka]

Sorry that was kind of a passive aggressive comment on my part. His game plan will be the same so Luigi's don't have to relearn their stuff which sucks, but fireballs are not free stage control in as many situations as he doesn't get as much frame advantage. Fireballs were safe on POWERSHEILD against many characters before. That was ****ed up. So you have to think about what time is the right time to use the projectile more now is what i meant.

I imagine d tilt followups will be much less linear because the trip is chance based and the angle will be different based on %, so same deal. More for the Luigi player to manage.

Safe on powershield? I knew they were stupid, but not that stupid. Okay so Luigi is less brain dead then.

 

[Megalopunny3]

@ LordWilliam1234 have all the aerial landing lag moves been accounted for? It's hard to believe DDD or Bowser aerials haven't had reductions

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I haven't gone through everyone's full frame data yet myself (only Link's so far), but according to @ Zapp Branniglenn that's about everything. There may be some we're missing but I'll catch those in due time if they're there.

Or the new data dump will.

 

[Megalopunny3]

Sorry that was kind of a passive aggressive comment on my part.

What did they change about up throw? I missed that one.

Nah you're fine.. I agree this balance to Luigi isn't that much of a buff but Luigi shouldn't be getting anything but Nerfs.
Someone mentioned his up throw killing at 160 instead of 170 but I don't know if this has been confirmed

I haven't gone through everyone's full frame data yet myself (only Link's so far), but according to @ Zapp Branniglenn that's about everything. There may be some we're missing but I'll catch those in due time if they're there.

Or the new data dump will.

New data dump for what? I thought there was already one of those

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Safe on powershield? I knew they were stupid, but not that stupid. Okay so Luigi is less brain dead then.

Admittedly still potentially the easiest character in the game but its no longer disturbing.

Did Diddy's up smash get changed like the reddit page says or no?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

The one @ Schiffe mentioned a few posts above.

Unless that's part of the same data dump and I'm misunderstanding things here. But supposedly the IASA frame location has been found?

 

[_Sylvan_]

Does anyone have a list of the characters that were unchanged in this patch? Please post them if so.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ LordWilliam1234 have all the aerial landing lag moves been accounted for? It's hard to believe DDD or Bowser aerials haven't had reductions

I've definitely looked over every aerial's landing lag. Bowser and DDD did not have changes to theirs when I checked.

And if dantarion finally cracked animation frame data, then that's pretty huge news. If anything has changed by just a single frame, I couldn't trust my own eyes to catch the difference. I look forward to hearing more about these announcements.

 

[JCOnyx]

I know. I was the one that found his Dthrow reduction last patch. So it was a shock to see the same thing happen again. It's not as large as last patch's 8 frame reduction. Think more like 2. Same for Bair landing lag.

Even if it's only 2 frames (which seems confirmed now), with the changes I was actually able to true combo Charizard DThrow to UpAir which was never possible previously in my experience. And even if they DI away Fair is possible for an extremely long time now.

 

[Schiffe]

The one @ Schiffe mentioned a few posts above.

Unless that's part of the same data dump and I'm misunderstanding things here. But supposedly the IASA frame location has been found?

sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA

If that's what they are, then I guess the location has been found. Unless I too am misunderstanding

 

[Megalopunny3]

I've definitely looked over every aerial's landing lag. Bowser and DDD did not have changes to theirs when I checked.

And if dantarion finally cracked animation frame data, then that's pretty huge news. If anything has changed by just a single frame, I couldn't trust my own eyes to catch the difference. I look forward to hearing more about these announcements.

It'd be nice to know the frame data, idk I just find aerial landing lag a big part of characters, it's interesting to see what Sakurai changes in regards to that

 

[PandaEffect]

Changed fighter_param_vl_purin.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 21 to 20
Changed fighter_param_vl_purin.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 20 to 19
Changed fighter_param_vl_purin.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 20 to 19

Anyone know what moves this changes are affecting?
Assuming its IASA frames

 

[Kofu]

Were you able to review the Game & Watch changes yet Schiffe? I don't think it's anything gameplay related but I'm still curious about them.

 

[Mario766]

This almost seems like global changes. Ike has the exact same changes in his file.

 

[bc1910]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin.txt

Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04B][4] from 18 to 17
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04C][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[04D][4] from 17 to 16
Changed fighter_param_vl_gekkouga.bin[0]sub[07B][2] from 50 to 43

07B - ThrowLw - D72C4C6A

my dumps now have param changes, will try to get the animation names in them, but endlag changes are now available online

The other 3 are things I want tested though.
4B-4D are EscapeN EscapeF, EscapeB

now, sub[XXX][2] changes are clearly IASA, im not sure what these are. Maybe total duration? Have these rolls gotten one frame better?

In 1.0.9, the first vulnerable frames of Greninja's spotdodge, forward roll and backward roll are 18, 17 and 17 respectively (not counting the initial 1-3 frame vulnerability of course). These numbers match up with the numbers here.

So Greninja's dodges probably have 1 frame less invincibility. What's not clear is whether they've just changed the last frame of invincibility to make it vulnerable, or whether they've reduced the total duration of the dodges by 1 frame. I would guess the former, sadly, making this a nerf to Greninja's dodges. Which makes no sense, since they were average to below average already.

EDIT: If this was a universal change it means that spotdodges and rolls have been made slightly less obnoxious worse on a cast-wide basis.

 

[san.]

In 1.0.9, the first vulnerable frames of Greninja's spotdodge, forward roll and backward roll are 18, 17 and 17 respectively (not counting the initial 1-3 frame vulnerability of course). These numbers match up with the numbers here.

So Greninja's dodges probably have 1 frame less invincibility. What's not clear is whether they've just changed the last frame of invincibility to make it vulnerable, or whether they've reduced the total duration of the dodges by 1 frame. I would guess the former, sadly, making this a nerf to Greninja's dodges. Which makes no sense, since they were average to below average already.

This change seemed to happen to everyone.