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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread

Corpsecreate

Corpsecreate

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Whats up guys, I've been away from here for a while now and hadn't played brawl for like 6 months and I recently went to a tournament and came 4th. Here are the vids that were recorded.

Corpsecreate vs S.D (Diddy) (2:42 = epic arrow cancel)
Corpsecreate vs Shaya (Marth)
Corpsecreate vs Earl (MK) (I was only TL the first game)
Corpsecreate vs Jaice (Olimar) (I went MK the second game)
Corpsecreate vs Atilla (Snake)

I'm mostly interested in my game against Snake, he really gives me trouble. I know I messed up with the Usmash at the end, I got greedy :( Actually I dont know any of these matchups, was kind of figuring them out on the spot, I think if I played the olimar again now things would go differently.
 
army man

army man

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ShadowTl said:
Just if I play the match up right and if I make any stupid mistakes.
Click to expand...
OK well, i not the best at this type of thing but i can give a few tips. It looks to me as if you have a small problem with recovering, a good trick to use that
an enemy won't expect is to ledge grab cancel. that means when you use your up B to recover, hold down the control stick and you won't snap onto the ledge, you'll up B through it, so that it will catch your opponent in the up B so that they can't counter it easily. I like the way that you used the hook shot and jab cancel. all that i can say as of right now is that practice makes perfect. good job:)
 
S

ShadowTl

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I watched some of your matches corps. Against the diddy, when diddy has 1 or 2 banana's you have to try to stay in the air, what you did was sh and throw a projectile the whole time. If you're in the air, it's harder for diddy to hit you with his banana's, platforms are also great for this. Also, don't approach when diddy has 2 banana's, if he hits you with one banana, he can get a free 30%.
If you get a banana, you always throw it immediately back to the diddy, try to keep in your hands for a while and wait for a right time to throw it, you can still camp diddy away with arrows, boomerangs and zairs when you have one.

I like your banana control btw =P, you have some nice combos.
 
KT Kasrani

KT Kasrani

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actually dont stay in the air alot.

a good diddy will jus read ur landings and punish wit a banana. bombs neutralize thrown bananas. stay grounded and make him throw a banana. i like to shield grab diddys cause most of em always throw a banana at ur shield and follow up wit a dash attack or smash atttack. jus my 2 cents
 
MJG

MJG

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Corpsecreate said:
Whats up guys, I've been away from here for a while now and hadn't played brawl for like 6 months and I recently went to a tournament and came 4th. Here are the vids that were recorded.

Corpsecreate vs S.D (Diddy) (2:42 = epic arrow cancel)
Corpsecreate vs Shaya (Marth)
Corpsecreate vs Earl (MK) (I was only TL the first game)
Corpsecreate vs Jaice (Olimar) (I went MK the second game)
Corpsecreate vs Atilla (Snake)

I'm mostly interested in my game against Snake, he really gives me trouble. I know I messed up with the Usmash at the end, I got greedy :( Actually I dont know any of these matchups, was kind of figuring them out on the spot, I think if I played the olimar again now things would go differently.
Click to expand...
@Diddy Kong Match: Learn or relearn how to do Bair to FF QD. I said relearn because I couldn't remember if you could do that or not. I saw that around 0:40. Against diddy kong, try not to **** in your sheild for too long. Diddy kong can use dash attack on our shield and he can do a NUMBER of things before we can get an attack OoS.

@4:53: Try not to drop so fast and low. If you do that during the bomb pull and the player reacts fast enough, you better plan on throwing the bomb up on your second jump or you will lose your stock (a hard lesson learned :\).

@5:30-5:45: Great usage of the bananas...lmao. Actually, you play with tiems PRETTY well...the start of the 2nd match proved that.

Uh...@ the end of the match where you used Up Smash to punish his Forward Smash...is that legit? I don't think I have ever been in the position to punish f smash with up smash but if thats guaranteed then cool.

Marth vid: @ 1:50: ....marth y

@2:15 and on: I see that you are trying to force the kill. Marth is gonna continue to punish you for this unless the marth messes up or you get an insanely good read.

Im not gonna input too much on the marth MU since its not one of my best MUs but you really wanna try to fight marth either up close or far away...avoid being with in marth's tipper range and try not to go off stage (its gonna happen though). Getting back on stage vs marth is obnoxious.


Against MK:

Lol @ 0:38..I haven't seen an MK mash jump vs a TL since Chip was playing.

@0:53: You can grab MKs down smash if you are shielding. You can also nair and bair OoS if your powershield MKs down smash.

@1:50. I would prefer going above the stage rather than going below the stage. You may take damage trying to get back on but @ least you aren't dealing with someone who can take advantage of the jumps that they have. Also, something that hyro told me awhile ago that could have worked in this situation is that you can and should run off the platform on SV (and any other stage for that matter) and buffer an airdodge to the ground. That gives you time to buffer a nair or bair after airdoding to the ground and if you have a bumb, you can even ibomb while buffering an airdodge to the ground. Just another mixup.

@2:25 and on: good job making it back. If MK goes underneath the stage like the MK did in this vid (Around like 2:35, you can throw your boomerang @ an angle and MK will get hit by the boomerang most of the time (if the MK tries to shuttle loop that is).

@3:10: That was slick

Against olimar:

Your first mistake was pulling a bomb lol. Olimar is fast enough to avoid bombs but thats not why bombs aren't as good in this MU as they are in other MUs. When pikmin latch onto Toon Link, he won't be able to throw his bomb anywhere. The bomb will immediately blow up in TLs face.

You need to pressure olimar more. I know we all fear being grabbed or hit by a smash attack against olimar but it is better to get hit by that (and to even stale olimar's move)rather than to let olimar rack up damage on us by throwing pikmin @ us for days. I would suggest using more short hop nair instead of a full hop nair as well...Full hop nair actually leaves you more vulnerable than a short hop nair and as long as you have good spacing with your nair, olimar can't punish you anyways. If olimar is throwing out a smash attack when you throw out a nair or a bair, the pikmin will usually die and you will be safe. Also, the are between olimar grab ranage and olimar himself allows you to do things such as zair in front of olimar or throw out an aerial and to immediately spotdodge and be out of harms way. I wouldn't suggest doing this all the time though. Some player may pick up on that. If you do this, you can jab them immediately or you can do a retreating aerial. Whatever you feel like doing

Once you lost a huge lead, the match was over. That is usually how it goes against olimar (and against so many other characters).

The only other thing you want to try and do is to get olimar in the air. Everything is so much easier once that happens. Also, grab olimar more. They like to sit in shield a lot.

One last thing, I would suggest using full hop nair ONLY if you take the 1st stock against olimar and you are in kill range...even then, short hop nair is better. If you do decide to use full hop nair @ this point, make sure to anticipate olimar running underneath your nair to up smash you...also, you CAN camp olimar but it won't work forever. I actually did it this weekend against Fino's olimar but this doesn't work forever. You can maintain your lead and rack up damage slowly by 1) using the full hop nair (you have to space it really well or olimar will tag you).

2) Throwing your boomerang down @ an angle to help control olimar's movement

3) Come down to the ground with a retreating zair

4) Bombs are actually pretty useful @ this time. If you are in the and if you aren't predictable with your jumps, I would suggest throwing bombs down to make sure that you land safely.


Against snake: It is really hard for me to give you any advice vs snake (Despite snake being my favorite MU)...but one thign I would suggest is to be careful about your jumping. Oh and don't force the kill. That is the only reason you lost game 1. You had that match :(. I didn't see the snake capitalize on this a lot but yea. Also, full hop nair is definitely better in this MU than sh nair but you still hve to make sure that you space it well. When snake has a nade, try to avoid using your bomb against snake unless the snake is coming down to the ground or if you already have a bomb out when snake pulls out a nade. Throwing the bomb @ any other time may cause you to take damage from snakes nade and your own bomb. DON'T STAY CLOSE TO SNAKE FOREVER. Snake down throw wrecks TL. If you do get grabbed and snake uses down throw, I would suggest just laying down. I found out this weekend that Snake can't jab reset TL because of TL's size @ worse, you will get f tilted and take 20-30 percent rather than being regrabbed and taking a ton of damage. You should probably consider doing something else if you are in kill range though. If the snake main catches onto you laying down on the ground all the time, the snake main will just buffer an up tilt after the throw and you will die.

When snake has nades out, try to just use your boomerang and arrows. Even if snake throws the nade out when you are using your boomerang and arrows, the nade and your projectiles will clash and you will be safe (unless the nade was close to blowing up).

So in short, you really wanna just pressure snake while staying safe (obviously) and remaining unpredictable.
 
Corpsecreate

Corpsecreate

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MJG said:
MJG's massive critique post that Coprsecreate is very appreciative of
Click to expand...
Diddy
Yeah, you can Bair, FF, QD but it has a weird timing with the control stick. Its possible to accidently pull out a bomb so I usually just leave out the fast fall. Actually in tournament I can perform it basically 100%, I dont know why :p 2:42 has a bair, ff, reverse qd bcat.

I usually stay in shield a lot when im at high %, grabs usually wont kill with good DI and i'd rather get grabbed and sent in a long range battle than get punished by a kill move. I'm not sure if the shield Fsmash -> Usmash is guaranteed but from the video it does look like it is. I just punished on reaction and it worked.

Marth
Yeah Marth...I've pretty much played this matchup maybe once before this game :p I can see what you mean about the tipper range, I actually got hit by a tipper at 1:52 and it killed me :( Yoshis is probably not a very good stage against him too (is it?).

Metaknight
Looking back at this game I did some pretty dumb things. Mostly when it came to recovery. Your absolutely right about 1:50, I dont even know why I went under the stage, it was a bad choice. I didnt know you could grab MKs Dsmash out of shield though. I would think this only works if you shield the frontal hit right? And lol at @3:10 :)

I really wish I had my TL vs M2K recorded, grrr!!

Olimar
This is the first Olimar I had ever played. I managed to figure out bombs were bad when it came to the camp game but they can still be useful with ibomb landings and when the olimar is not in camp mode. But yes, next time I wont use so many bombs.

Good point about SH Nair over FH. This seems like the way to go in this MU if he cant punish it. The one thing that really shook me in this game though was that his usmash is very powerful and fast. I felt like it killed me way more easily than it should have. I dont grab often because i'm so very scared of missing with it, but if it works against oli i'll have to give it a try and see how it goes.

Snake
I think this is one of TL's worst MUs. 70:30 imo, I've played as the snake in this MU and I have no problems at all. Granted I havent played against a top TL player with my Snake but I honestly dont see it making much of a difference. Snake and TL are polar opposites when it comes to Kill power and weight. The Dtilt lock is also very painful.

Good point about the bombs vs nades. I'll wait for the right time to throw them instead of just throwing them hoping them to hit. I think SHDA is pretty useful here too, it kind of breaks his camp game. The biggest problem I have in this MU is getting the kill, how do I do it? I've learnt that Usmash is bad, I think maybe bomb from the air -> Uair but then your vulnerable to a utilt. I just dont know how to finish off snake. Any ideas on this?
 
MJG

MJG

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Corpsecreate said:
Diddy
Yeah, you can Bair, FF, QD but it has a weird timing with the control stick. Its possible to accidently pull out a bomb so I usually just leave out the fast fall. Actually in tournament I can perform it basically 100%, I dont know why :p 2:42 has a bair, ff, reverse qd bcat.

Makes sense.

I usually stay in shield a lot when im at high %, grabs usually wont kill with good DI and i'd rather get grabbed and sent in a long range battle than get punished by a kill move. I'm not sure if the shield Fsmash -> Usmash is guaranteed but from the video it does look like it is. I just punished on reaction and it worked.

Yea, that would be cool if its legit.

Marth
Yeah Marth...I've pretty much played this matchup maybe once before this game :p I can see what you mean about the tipper range, I actually got hit by a tipper at 1:52 and it killed me :( Yoshis is probably not a very good stage against him too (is it?).

Yoshi's Island isn't a favorable stage for TL period (imo) but yes, it's not very good vs marth.

Metaknight
Looking back at this game I did some pretty dumb things. Mostly when it came to recovery. Your absolutely right about 1:50, I dont even know why I went under the stage, it was a bad choice. I didnt know you could grab MKs Dsmash out of shield though. I would think this only works if you shield the frontal hit right? And lol at @3:10 :)

I really wish I had my TL vs M2K recorded, grrr!!

Olimar
This is the first Olimar I had ever played. I managed to figure out bombs were bad when it came to the camp game but they can still be useful with ibomb landings and when the olimar is not in camp mode. But yes, next time I wont use so many bombs.

Good point about SH Nair over FH. This seems like the way to go in this MU if he cant punish it. The one thing that really shook me in this game though was that his usmash is very powerful and fast. I felt like it killed me way more easily than it should have. I dont grab often because i'm so very scared of missing with it, but if it works against oli i'll have to give it a try and see how it goes.

Grab is just another mix up. If the oli sees you running up to them and they keep shielding your nairs (assuming you can't get the nair out in time) then grab will work...a lot of olimars like to sit in their shield and if you grab them, put them in the air and chase from there.

Snake
I think this is one of TL's worst MUs. 70:30 imo, I've played as the snake in this MU and I have no problems at all. Granted I havent played against a top TL player with my Snake but I honestly dont see it making much of a difference. Snake and TL are polar opposites when it comes to Kill power and weight. The Dtilt lock is also very painful.

I actually think this MU is 55:45 (probably closer to 60:40) but I feel like I have a good feel for this MU regarldess.

Good point about the bombs vs nades. I'll wait for the right time to throw them instead of just throwing them hoping them to hit. I think SHDA is pretty useful here too, it kind of breaks his camp game. The biggest problem I have in this MU is getting the kill, how do I do it? I've learnt that Usmash is bad, I think maybe bomb from the air -> Uair but then your vulnerable to a utilt. I just dont know how to finish off snake. Any ideas on this?

When it comes to kill snake, I would suggest trying to get snake in the air and going from there. This will usually happen if you keep camping snake correctly. He will most likely get popped in the air by TLs bomb, his own nade (if you stop the nade in front of snake) or by a combination of TLs bomb blowing up in snakes face while he is holding a nade, etc. I wouldn't suggest using up smash against snake (Unless you read the snakes airdodge and you should try to get in front of snake anyways because the snake player might be bold enough to use bair as they land). Just be patient and the kill will come.
Click to expand...

Response is in bold.
 
MJG

MJG

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TheJerm said:
Watch game 1 and 3 atleast. Game 2 I got gimped so its pretty simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNfENv6Hvg

Critique plz.
Click to expand...
The beginning of the match just proves the fact that sonic can close the gap fast against TL. I don't think throwing out a boomerang @ the start was the best option.

God...that bomb kill @ 2:10 in the first match was mad gay.

You played really well on your 2nd stock after espy killed you @ the start of game 3.

@2:20: Loooool. That was a slick little string across the stage.

Actually...you played well (again) on your last stock when espy was on his 2nd stock. You should just play like this imo.

I saw a few opportunities during the last minute of game 3 where you both probably could have ended the match lol but the pace will change when a match is that close.

There really isn't much to say about the matches other than the fact that you should try to watch your projectile usage. Espy, for the most part, ran in with the intent to shield your projectile and grab you. This was apparent because whenever you had a spaced zair, his grab would come out but he would miss you. I noticed that _X_ liked to do this as well when I played him.


Overall, it just really seems like you were reacting to things slowly (at first) and not playing like you know you can (like you did game 3).
 
WindMajor

WindMajor

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Man I wanna play Espy's Sonic.....

Anyways, the thing with Sonic is that he's really good at punishing moves from all across the stage, so the best thing you can do is be very selective of the moves you throw out. Sonic's won't just blindly rush in and see what comes out of it, they wait until you commit to something so that they can punish it. For instance, in here Espy FAirs you on the right side of the stage and you end up on the left side. Instead of Espy blindly running into you for an attack, he stays just outside of your range, moves around a bit waiting around for an opportunity to punish you. This sounds kinda familiar because all players do this to an extent, but what's so special with Sonic is that he can punish you from the other side of the stage. In the moment I linked, he was dancing around until you tried to wall him with Bairs. That's when he rolled over to you between BAirs and BAired you back. That's where you have to be selective of your moves. Throwing out moves like that would make someone not want to approach right away, but at the same time, doing so requires you to commit to a situation in which you have much less viable options to defend yourself with (aka being airborne).

In situations like that, the best thing you can do is remain grounded, or very close to the ground, since all of your defensive options are rapidly available to you. This isn't to say that walling or staying aerial is bad, because that's not true. The point is that staying grounded is much safer, but if you ARE in the air (or at least very close to Sonic), be very selective of what you do.

I just kinda rambled there a bit, *scratches head* sorry about that. xD

Edit: Ninja'd, but yeah, basically what MJG said. Watch your projectile usage (be selective of what you do), and notice his habits. Espy approached with shield a lot (and you can expect him to since he's going to be trying to avoid your projectiles). Sonic's grab range is short and abusable, but you already knew that.
 
N

NH Cody

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TheJerm said:
Watch game 1 and 3 atleast. Game 2 I got gimped so its pretty simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNfENv6Hvg

Critique plz.
Click to expand...
Well, I'll give it a shot.

Match 1:

0:11- you run towards him and get grabbed. Could have just retreated with FH boomerang > spaced zair or something...
0:16- you do an RQS and he shieldgrabs. Sonic can run up quickly and PS, so I would say use arrows more when he's charging spindash or spin charge, or landing.
0:23- you run towards him and FH nair...which ultimately causes you to get baired and then faired. If you threw more projectiles after the bomb throw you'd probably have kept your momentum and did more damage.
0:34- you start to throw a grounded boomerang and he dash attacks you. Grounded projectiles in general are not the best idea vs sonic because he can punish with dash PS grab (like before) or dash attack like he does here. Maybe an SH boomerang would have worked better?
0:58- again he dash attacks you when you retreat bair and then airdodge into the ground...full hop aerial or projectile throw probably would have been safer
1:08- same thing
1:18- you do SH bomb throw zair, I think bomb throw FF QD is generally more effective against sonic, but either way is safe, it's just another mixup
1:22- again, if he hadn't tripped you would have been grabbed or ftilted or something...
1:26- a few problems here, hyphen smashing too early, with little projectile pressure immediately prior to, and when he's in a position to do his usual dash PS grab.
2:12- *dead* literally
2:30- would up-B even have killed him there..? I strongly advise against offensive up-B, but it's a preference thing, just beware of the risk...
2:40- full hop nair caused you to get uaired since he was charging ASC (aerial spin charge). When he's charging and releasing ASC, he can shield cancel it on the ground in front of you and grab, or land with it and then use spin dash jump then an aerial (in this case uair). Just holding shield would have been the better option here since he was too far from you to cancel it and shieldgrab.
3:00- this usmash was good and more successful than the one at 1:26 because you distracted him a little bit, and then waited for him to whiff a grab which was smart.
3:08- THIS would have been a great time to FF QD not airdodge
3:14- not sure what exactly happened here...you either did nothing (which would mean you were too slow in reacting, wahaha) or you ran towards him...which got you ftilted and put you off the stage into a bad position
3:17- unspaced zair onto the stage was a bad idea...would have been better to just grab the ledge and do ledge stall shenanigans or something; reset to neutral, basically.
3:18- Dair...self explanatory
3:52- one input error spells out a mess of trouble, approaching with wrong way bair yields you getting grabbed, then grabbed again when he shields your zair. Perhaps double jumping after being thrown would have worked better?
4:26- should've waited a second to fair; bait the airdodge.
4:37- that was TOO close...if you were a millimeter closer and threw the boomerang, you would have died. Would have been best to airdodge and tether the ledge after he bairs.
5:01- again...strange offstage move choices that caused you to almost die over the top. I would say it's best to keep it simple when recovering...bombs in hand limit what you can do, so perhaps it's best to just cover the ledge with a boomerang so he can't edgehog.
5:05- ...I would have exploded if that bomb killed you [/pun]
5:14- Niiice. Short hop uair is generally risky (especially at this crazy high %) but you made it work.
5:33- retreating double bair works against spin charge??!?
5:42- again...the retreating bair was what caused your demise. How it worked at 5:33 was really time specific and is unlikely to work all the time lol, probably should have started jumping high in the air here and throwing stuff, playing it safe.
5:54- again you got punished for the grounded boomerang...ASC has several hits so it only took up one hit on the boomerang and still had hits leftover to do damage. should've avoided the ASC somehow.
6:14- ...you run into him when you see him charging ASC...don't do that
6:21- an up-angle on your boomerang probably would have hit him there
6:26- if you know he has another jump, anticipate an aerial of some kind, either fair, bair or uair, and don't boomerang when he could chase you since it has too much startup lag. Possibly nair or airdodging past him would have worked better.
6:37- again, boomerang loses to ASC and you get hit, better to avoid it altogether.
6:43- you approach with zair, don't space it correctly, and get grabbed
6:55- wrong way boomerang gets you baired. even if you faced it the right way, I think bair would have beaten it, sonic bair is like marth fair in that it wrecks your boomeranging up close
7:20- bomb throw FF QD would have been better than zair here since you're too far for zair to hit

I think I've given enough specific move choice mistakes in match 1. For matches 2 and 3 I'll be more concise, with the expectation that you see how you made similar mistakes in those matches.

Match 2: Throwing a boomerang was what got you hit a LOT. You lost your first stock because bair beat boomerang. It's really important to be careful when throwing the boomerang. I think you can see your mistakes this match (especially the gimp as you mentioned)

Match 3: First stock, what I think happened was, you weren't thinking "avoid getting hit" but you were thinking "try and hit him." It's important to balance the two (of course). You got up at the edge the same way a few times and he punished it. Other habits that got you hit this match include: spotdodging, whiffing zair when he's charging spindash or spin charge, and, when offstage, coming on stage with an unspaced zair.

So, you'll probably notice a pattern here..?

...for a million dollars and a chance to move on to the bonus round...



you guessed it!

Camp safer, smarter, and more often. Get out of trouble first, then start throwing stuff. That's the big one.

Be more careful when going offensive with aerials. And of course watch your spacing. If you want to get out of trouble then just reset to a neutral position somehow, then start camping/attacking again. At the edge, mix up how you get back onto the stage. [/general thoughts]

Hope this helps

My two cents~

EDIT: double ninja'd :( I started working on this like 5 minutes after you posted the video, and left my computer for a while before I finished, didn't see those posts ._.
 
MJG

MJG

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I think its more so of the fact that they are "willing" to critique rather than them getting better at it.

Also, I have some matches that should be uploaded in the near future. I would like them to be critiqued :)
 
MJG

MJG

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KT Kasrani said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK2zwj-c-2w

KT vs Junebug

Critique please
Click to expand...
Junebug was catching you out of your jumps sometimes and towards the end of the set, he started to adapt to what you were doing near the end of the stage really well. Mix it up between recovering high and low vs lucario. Avoiding the Aura Sphere and lucario can be tricky at times but you just have to know what lucario is going to want to do. If the lucario is pretty good at edge guarding, hold onto your bomb as you are recovering so that you have a second chance of getting back onto the stage.

This MU is tricky imo because you really need to get rid of lucario once he is in kill range. Racking up damage @ that point would only hinder TL but @ the same time ,you don't wanna force the kill because lucario will capitalize on that and tie things up quickly. Try to be careful when getting back on stage vs Lucario. Junebug tagged you with a quick f smash around 20:40. Other than that, it really just came down to who would be more patience than the other person on the last stock. GG.

:toonlink:

This is GFs from my tournament last weekend

I won this set but I would REALLY appreciate critiques from anyone

Game 1 :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaO2jzfvQU

Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjqRVNokcY

Game 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VOcfVjP6dw
 
WindMajor

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KT Kasrani said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK2zwj-c-2w

KT vs Junebug

Critique please
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I don't have a deep understanding of the Lucario MU, but what I do know is that if you're recovering low, and your opponent anticipates it, he'll try to Dair stage spike you.

Make it a habit to mash R (or whatever your tech button is) while you're in the UpB animation. Mashing R won't interrupt the UpB animation. If you get hit, you tech, if you grab the ledge, you won't buffer a rolling ledge recovery because once you grab the ledge, you're stuck on it for 25 or so frames without the ability to buffer attacks.



@MJG: I quit that MU, lol.
 
KT Kasrani

KT Kasrani

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
2,177
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Philadelphia, Pa
i only watched game 1 MJG

dont throw ur bombs so much wen recovering. but u still was makin it back nonetheless.

also condition the mk wit dthrow and dont follow up. jus watch which way they DI or if they jump or just fall to the ground. TL can easily follow up after dthrow against mk.

but nicely played.

lol @pj vid. u lucky *******
 
N

NH Cody

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
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Kakariko Village, NH
southpaw said:
vs marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu0xgyA9ndc&feature=related
I guess I just fail at life

Please critique guys. All help will be appreciated
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You don't fail at life. And you don't fail at brawl either. However, there are some aspects of your game to be fixed.

First stock first game, you got a lead because you were playing it safe and camping. Then your momentum fell apart when (oh, guess when!) you APPROACHED with fair at 0:56 and he beat it out with a retreating fair. Other similar instances of you approaching with aerials and getting hit because of it include 1:06, 1:22, 1:59, 2:26, 2:47, etc. I could go on and on. I am not saying approaching Marth with aerials is always a bad idea; you can punish airdodges, read double jumps, punish OOS, and more by using aerials at appropriate times. Aerials in this matchup are mostly meant as "get off me" moves that are meant to be used OOS or in general to punish laggy moves (NOT dsmash, unless it's at 0% and you want to try a gimp).

Even more atrocious than your habit of approaching with aerials was your tendency to smash at unreasonably low %s and when there was no chance for either a gimp or a kill - it just made me sadface :(

Both games, you and your opponent were smashing wayyyy too much. Stock 1 game 2, I swear it looked like Omega was just c-sticking repeatedly. Let's evaluate what's going on at 7:26 for a minute. Even when he regenerated...and you were at 89% (very far below marth's fsmash kill range ESPECIALLY when it's staled as much as his was) he fsmashed your iBomb, and thought, MUST CHOP. ME FAIL CHOP FIRST TIME ME SMASH YOU AGAIN, and did. xD The worst part is, you didn't even punish him for it...you just sat in shield and, after a moment of hesitation, decided to approach with bair OOS even when you saw how he was too far from you. What you should have done, to avoid all this nonsense and getting your shield broken, is RUN AWAY. It's a universal theme with TL: if you're unsure of the distance and time that gives you an opportunity to punish your opponent (in this case, the distance was too far between you sitting in shield and him recovering from fsmash lag for you to punish, and you didn't have enough time to say, run up and nair), forget it and just throw stuff. When he fsmashed you that second time, what you should've done was immediately retreat with something, perhaps a short hop boomerang. That would cover your getaway while he recovers from lag and might even damage him, too. The reason I analyze this situation so closely is to show you that 1. Omega has many punishable habits on which you were not capitalizing, 2. if you have trouble with these c-stick marths then imagine how you'd fare against better players, and 3. it is important to avoid the need to approach in close combat situations like this.

You and your opponent were both making the same mistakes. It was just easier for him to punish you, because Marth can punish with moves like DB or fair. When you spotdodge, he didn't have to anticipate it; all he had to do was finish his random DBs like he was doing. In contrast, when he spotdodges, you have to anticipate it and wait a second before striking. Or you could always just throw a projectile and that would hit him. Boomerang is especially useful in that case because it lingers on the ground for a second before returning. Marth also has a very easy time baiting airdodges but Omega failed several opportunities to punish, such as at 1:10. So be careful with your airdodges against marth. if you're airdodging into him on the ground, just zair to space and cover your landing.

That reminds me, use more zair. And use it more wisely. At 2:50 you zair onto stage into his fsmash...you could've just grabbed the ledge and done ledge shenanigans to reset to neutral. Use zair to cover your landings and space when you're falling after, say, a full hop bomb pull, etc. Zair is super effective against Marth, true story. It outranges everything of his except shield breaker, and when used effectively can shut down many of his approaches. It can give you momentum. Zair is your friend.

Final notes - get better at punishing and react more quickly. If he uses DB and it hits your shield, GRAB. Grab when you know he'll hesitate and pay attention to the timing because good Marths will mix it up. Don't let him stress you out, either. When he pressures you, don't get scared because you'll start airdodging and spotdodging recklessly. Turn the tables and punish his landings, unspaced aerials, and airdodges. OH - almost forgot, very important: iBomb is crucial against Marth. If you use it effectively you can punish his air approaches and this is one of the factors that makes the matchup even. If you fail to use it wisely, you might end up iBombing and airdodging into his grab, fsmash, or other attacks. Remember, even if you iBomb without thinking and are airdodging into him, you can zair to cover yourself. This could even work as a little mindgame. You'll learn how to use it over time. It's very important in this matchup.

Summary:
-less approaching
-much less spotdodging
-use iBomb, wisely
-more projectiles
-lots more zair
-react faster
-play with the mindset of "don't get hit"
-don't get pressured
-much less smashing
-vary how you kill
-keep up the projectiles until you kill him
-kill him at higher %s
-pressure him with projectiles and punish his unspaced aerials
-work on spacing and punishing

Hope this helps~
 
Flea_16

Flea_16

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
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georgia
NNID
flea_16
iight mjG just got dont watching your set. very very close set. just by the way domo plays ur tl i can tell u guys played alot. theres a few things i feel u could of done to keep him out more. first thing is camping vertically, make it rain bombs. drop a bomb down or ibomb before u land or keep it in ur hand and react to the option he chooses. other thing i find really helpful in the mu is zair to grab work oh too well on mk. throw away from u so you can camp him some more. and last thing is the projectile rotation. if u keep a bomb in your hand you can beat nado almost everytime so, just make sure ur at a good distance to where you can throw your bomb and force him to ether catch it, dodge it or get hit by it. ethere way expect nado to follow up after that. only thing idk wat to go is when getting back on the stage you did good there but mk doesnt let me get back on the stage if played properly
 
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